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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Jon Lipovac on March 29, 2024, 08:14:53 AM
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I’m gonna order some of this carbon twill from Mark Tom. Some of you have used this carbon before. He sells it in .5 mm and 1.0 mm before I order. Are any of you interested in it? I can order extra and ship it to you to save some on shipping cost. I may order some of his foam core material as well.
Let me know.
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Jon I sent you a PM.
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The 0,5 IS pure 45/45. The 1mm is 45/45 and UD.
So the 0,5 IS for use on top or under UD Glas or Carbon.
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Bj can the 1 mm be reduced in thickness from the sanded side? Sounds like maybe you have used carbon from marktom ? How does it compare to others you have used?
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I have used it in my curves instead of stablecoreand to me is better. Just a pain to sand both sides.
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Bj can the 1 mm be reduced in thickness from the sanded side? Sounds like maybe you have used carbon from marktom ? How does it compare to others you have used?
The 1mm is 0,5mm 45/45 and 0,5mm UD.
There is no sanded Side.
DON'T mess around with the Thickness!
Use IT as it is!
The Carbon is solid and does what you expect.
It's pretty strong.
I would not recommend using it in the belly above 50#.
Using 45/45 carbon instead of Stabilcore does for sure a better job than Stabilcore, because Stabilcore does just a bit more than adding a nice black line in your limb.
45/45 carbon is best used in the outside of belly AND back.
Otherwise you just use a fraction of the potential, it has in lateral stability.
I quit using this carbon.
Not because it's not good.
But i want some other specs that this carbon does not match.
And i'm sick of using stuff from China.
I made some 45/45 myself.
And i have carbon made in Germany by my Specs.
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Granted.... There are manufactures on the west coast that build much higher grade carbon with a bias weave rather than a twill weave. But.... The stuff is expensive, and unless you purchase large quantities the strength of it varies a lot from one order to the next.
i totally disagree with this 45/45 twill carbon being needed belly and back to provide excellent torsional strength. i've used this thin .015 twill right over stable core for backing on a light weight static tip recurve limbs with fairly aggressive hooks, and these light weight limbs had the torsional stability of a 65# glass bow in the same exact design.
Quite honestly.... You need to be careful putting carbon on the belly side of a limb, and for most guys just getting into it, i wouldn't recommend it. A lot of limb shapes will just not take the compression loads and the carbon buckles and delaminates from the belly side lam right at the fades even using rock hard maple.....
I'm speaking from experience here, and blew up a lot of carbon bows with high grade carbon... I quit using it on the belly side of recurve limbs completely many years ago because they were time bombs in my opinion.... Some lasted fine for quite awhile, and others never made it through the tiller process.
Long bows are different, and i don't use a weave carbon on them except for looks. Uni carbon is the way to go for Hi pro long bows, and you can use it on the belly side without too much concern.... .02 cents worth. Kirk
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Agree.
In conventional Limbs, you won't need 45/45 on the belly and back.
Those would also work without the Carbon and you Just add a bit of extra stability and safety.
And also yes: for longbows and even Most Recurves 45/45 deg Carbon Just adds Mass and Looks.
You don't gain any Performance.
Carbon shines if you want to build Limbs, that won't Work without the 45/45 torsional stability.
And If it helps you to SUBSTANCIALLY reduce limb Thickness and width, resulting in very light Limb mass.
Otherwise it's Just Show and Shine and an excuse for upping thenprice by some 100....
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I agree completely with that last post. The super hook design is one that requires double carbon stability, but I never got into building those myself.
My point was…. for the average garage bow builder, carbon backing isn’t the best answer to stability. It’s expensive, it’s not near as durable in the feild, and longevity is always in question using it. But it’s very nice with ultra light draw weight recurves.
Back around 2012-2014 I dumped thousands of dollars into carbon fiber and built a lot of carbon backed bows back then. It was very popular, and all the rage. I got together with another bowyer and we custom ordered a lot of different pre preg lay ups from several different carbon manufacturers looking for the best combination of uni and bias weave combos. And we had great success with some of them.
The problem was…. Trying to hit exact draw weights consistently for custom bow orders was a nightmare. Just about the time you think you got your stack heights figured out, and started hitting your weights accurately… you’d run out of carbon and have to order more. Then the next batch you’d miss draw weights by 10-12# because it was stronger with the same exact lay up…. The only way you could get consistency was buying a whole roll of the pre preg material at a huge cost….. we couldn’t afford to do that, and we’re not mass producing bows….
Sooooo…. I finally weaned myself off of building so many carbon backed bows, and just tweaked my limb designs until I was getting the performance I was looking for.
It’s a lot cheaper, you hit your draw weights easier, and the longevity is much better just using glass. Food for thought…. Kirk
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I'm not a big fan of carbon for performance enhancement as it must be on the outside to be effective.. and that means no veneers.. also the gains are generally pretty small.
I have recently started using a carbon twill with peel ply on both faces to replace stabilcore. I place this against the inside of the veneer on the back side and have noticed an improvement over stabilcore.
If we ever get caught up enough, I will have them list this on our website for purchase.
BigJim
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Good to hear that.
Stabilcore does just a bit more than adding a nice black line in the sideview of the limb.
Less people want to hear that, but i keep with this Statement.
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100 percent agree stablecore is a strip.
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Good conversation guys and thanks for some of the insight as to what has worked or not worked for you in the past.
I willl be making an order on Tuesday morning.
I was quoted $10/per 1.75”x30” strip of either .5mm or 1mm
I plan on ordering (10) of each for myself. Shipping was quoted $60.
If you want any, let me know no later than tomorrow evening and what sizes and dimensions you want. I’m thinking I will simply divide the total amount of shipping by the number strips ordered to determine your cost. I can then ship to you at cost from Adel, IA plus a couple dollars for packaging.
Let me know
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His price has went up
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How much did you pay when you ordered last Mike?
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I checked shipping went up. My strips were 60 in.$20
You guys do realize the government there subsides them they sell cheaper to take our market away. So the quality prolly pretty good (sad) I know that Sanlida ILF I bought cnc riser carbon foam would be hard to beat at twice the price here.
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Update,
I just did a small custom order from a state side supplier (Elevated Materials) for 45/45 Carbon Twill in .5mm
It will just be (2) 24"x30" sheets in which I will get (26) 1.625"x30" strips after cutting.
My cost will be $12.88 per strip.
I'll let you know how it looks when it gets here.
I did not order any 1mm but the final cost on it would be $15.80 per strip.
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Nice a. U.S. option is a big bonus
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How are you planning on using it? I assume for lateral support. When I used it front and belly I used core tuff under it. Twill adds no stiffness only stability. So if it is .019 then you take 019 out of the stack and put in the carbon back to original stack
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I plan on using it in lue of stabilkore
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On front and belly or just front a glass belly. Let me know how it works out.
I know double carbon guys use 6 ply on the front (twill and uni mix ) and just twill 2 plyon the belly.
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I used the .015 Twill on the back over stable core on a 30# bow with a glass belly and you could have used it for a crowbar. :o :o It felt like a 65# glass bow in torsional strength. I did another test using two layers of stable core on the back and it wasnt near as strong as the carbon, but it was very stable... I started using the stable core right under the glass on the back of the limb on 40-50# recurves and that increased the stability quite a bit over running dead center or closer to the belly. Once you get it into the neutral zone in the center it doesn't do much. pretty much a racing stripe.
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Kirk did the twill change your recipe for pounds ??
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My experience using twill just adds to the stack.so how thick the twill is how much core to leave out. Stack is the same. Just twill and no glass may not be enough tho.
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Thanks Stic
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45/45 is for stiffness.
If you want to replace Glass, you need UD.
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Will twill add any preload to a light LB
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Will twill add any preload to a light LB
Using 45/45 twill on an LB is totally wasted unless it’s just for looks. Uni carbon will add draw weight, and you will need to shorten your stack. But the preload is determined by limb shape, taper rates, and wedge configuration and not to be confused with draw weight.