Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Roger Norris on April 01, 2024, 08:55:02 AM
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Like the title says......I am interested in your opinion.
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Aluminum shafts are hands down the most accurate in spine consistency of any shafts built…. But with that being said, they are the least durable when used a lot. Once they are bent, they are spent…. Oh sure…. You’ll hear of guys saying different, and that they can be straightened easily, and this is somewhat true …. What they do not realize is after they have been bent and straightened, they will never shoot the same again because it changes the spine deflection.
The guys that say it doesn’t matter do not shoot well enough, or accurately enough to tell the difference. But there ya have it…. .02 cents worth.
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I find it kind of sad that "Traditional Only Autumn Orange XX75" shafts are called Traditional Only when they don't come with the nock end swaged. I prefer Bohning classic nocks on all my arrows. Woodies for deer, my old 2018's for bunnies and squirrels.
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I shoot fairly stout bows and it is much easier to get the arrow weight needed with 2219's than with carbon shafts. I don't bend allot of 2219 arrows.
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A bit of nostalgia, I have always loved the autumn orange shafts, but I also find it easier to get my total mass weight easier with aluminum shafts. I also think my bows shoot a bit quieter with aluminum over carbon, just as woodies make my bows seem quieter than other shafts. As far as durability, I think that is a moot point, if you hit something hard, a shafts is going to bend break or splinter.
Jason
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I think that is a moot point, if you hit something hard, a shafts is going to bend break or splinter.
My feelings.
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I think the only reason the aluminum arrow doesn't still reign supreme in the arrow world today is largely in part due to its durability. Nothing beats the consistency of aluminum in terms of spine and weight. The fact that 'cheap' aluminum arrows are still more consistent than the highest priced carbon is a little more than ironic as it goes against the grain of 'you get what you pay for'.
Aluminum arrows have been shot out of bows since the late 30's in archery competition. That's pretty 'traditional' by a lot of definitions.
You can do anything with an aluminum arrow that you can with a carbon; durability aside.
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I shoot both. But, much prefer aluminum's. I have a ton of sizes to choose from. I can cut them to length. I don't need to put, or play with weight up front. My personal choice for my 47 - 53 lb. bows are 31.5" 2018's. 125gr. heads and 3, 5" shield cut feathers. Fly like darts !!
By comparison, my carbons are 400 Easton Legacy's. Cut to 32", 100gr brass insert w/125gr. heads and 3 5" shield cut feathers.
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Personally, I have found that all the carbons I've tried, Beman 400, 340; AD; CE Heritage 250, 350; Warriors 340; Gold Tip 400, 340, have all needed 100 grain brass broadhead adapters behind the broadheads 160-250 grains. Aluminums just need an aluminum broadhead adapter and a broadhead. The aluminums can be cut to length, and carbons usually need to be a bit longer than I like.
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Aluminum is cheaper, straighter and easier to tune than carbon. But it's heavier, more fragile, and has less foc becauseof the mass distribution (let's not start the foc debate).
I didn't mind Aluminum anywhere near as much as I thought I would, but I still prefer carbon.
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Tapered and footed POC gives me plenty of FOC!
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I find it kind of sad that "Traditional Only Autumn Orange XX75" shafts are called Traditional Only when they don't come with the nock end swaged. I prefer Bohning classic nocks on all my arrows. Woodies for deer, my old 2018's for bunnies and squirrels.
I agree completely. I've been a hardcore woodies only shooter for 30 plus years. Very recently I've decided to add another shaft material to my arsenal and have pretty much decided on aluminum. Just today recieved a test kit of Autumn Orange shafts which comes with Easton Super nocks installed. I've always used Bohning Classic nocks on my woodies and the strings for my bows are built accordingly. The Easton Super nocks are way too tight. I don't want to have two sets of strings for all of my bows, it would be a lot easier to just use the same nocks for all of my arrows. It would be nice to have the option to get swaged nock ends instead.
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For those that like the Autumn Orange arrows, Easton makes the 5mm FMJ arrows in autumn orange.
The FMJ is a carbon core fused to an aluminum jacket. I’ve shot them in the past and am a fan. I think they are a good arrow for single-string hunters. Heavy, penetrate like the dickens, and the easton hiit insert is good. They pull nicely from targets.
My favorite part about aluminum arrows, however? Re-fletching. You can scrape them almost carelessly compared to re-fletching carbon arrows!
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Honestly, not a lot of experience with carbon...I did (after shooting several different types of carbon)purchase a dozen of the toughest / straightest Carbon made "then" and likely still if they were still being made (without throwing the manufacture under the Bus ;)....but I have shot aluminum -fiberglass-wood since the late 60's . Mostly last 30+ yrs. I have "never" had an aluminum arrow break at the shot nor on impact. I have had many bend on impact or shortly after. With that matched dozen $$$ Carbon , I had one glance off a chainlink fence (as I have had MANY aluminums do over the years per
pre backstop days) That carbon snapped 1/3 back of the point as it went to flex around the wire it struck. Clean break. Though it matched my 2018 aluminum shaft setup near perfectly in weight and flight , that clean "break" had me selling them and never looking back. *Did any of my 2018 aluminum get damaged on that same fence? O yea...slight bends,NEVER a break. Breaks kinda creep me out ;^) So I'll take a shaft with the least likelyhood to Break every time.
For glancing blows like mentioned above , and to survive with the least damage....My vote would be a good wood shaft . ..followed by aluminum (though it may bend)...All this is very dependent upon material-gauge-wall thickness-etc....etc...
Kirk....I do bend some of my easton 2018's while stumping , or a critter might bend one that manages to "not" get a complete pass--through...but if that happens , more times than not I will hand straighten them and they are used for roving/small game shafts once they spin true.
Yes , the integrity of the original product has been forever compromised , hand straightened 2018's are plenty tough after a light bend to be straightened and utilized once again for lesser chores ;) Some of your lesser aluminum material or thinner walled aluminum....more than likely are toast after a bend. .....and even then they can be recycled into something useful ;^)
So that is the extent of "my experience-opinion" with carbon shafts...though I did my homework pre purchase to have the toughest-straightest-carbon shafts,and properly tuned to my rig..
Aluminum arrow shafts have treated me VERY WELL over a LOT of years. For me they are an excellent arrow shaft that has stood the test of time . They fill many an archers quivers, and many a hunters freezers and have so for a VERY long time. I have no cause to change that which is proven..You asked for our preference and why ...... You just got it ;^))
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Ralph;
You just saved me a bunch of typing, Thanks!
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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I grew up with aluminum, and have a lifetime supply of various shafts. As for carbons... I don't like the fact they can become structurally unstable and fail, depending on the kind of impacts that they have sustained. If you google "carbon arrow injury", select "images", and scroll through those images... you'll see one of the reasons that I avoid carbons.
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I like the idea that basically one company makes aluminum shafts. I am not including any ChiCom stuff off Amazon. If I bought a dozen 2016’s in 1979 I can replace them with today’s 2016 shafts and not have to fuss with tuning again. Carbon’s vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and year to year. What is 500 spine range for a GT maybe different than a Victory500 spine. Then CE had a different number system for its trad shafts. Then there’s these add on’s like heavy inserts, collars, outserts, and on and on. Durability is a good point and my outside, hunting arrows are mostly carbon. But I also realize arrows ain’t forever, if one breaks or goes AWOL I don’t cry about it
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I've shot mostly aluminum and wood for the last 48 years.
Started shooting carbon some about 10 yrs ago.
Aluminium is the most consistent shaft material..period.
If you shoot a heavier aluminum shaft like 1916,2016, 2018, they are pretty tuff.
Honestly I've broke as many carbons as I've bent aluminum since I started shooting carbons some.
Aluminum shafts are hard to beat.
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Does anyone have experience with Beiter nocks as opposed to Easton nocks for the newer unswaged aluminums? Is there a nock that has a throat diameter the same as the Classic nock? As Maclean said requiring different strings for different arrows is a pain.
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I'm an aluminum fan as well. For all the reasons mentioned above. They are reasonably priced by comparison with wood or carbon. Easy for to tune. I get the weight I want, without doing anything special. Cut to length, install inserts and head, and your ready. I like things easy. Works for me.
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...not to drift "much" off topic;^)
On the nock fit.....I actually had a few conversations in the last few years with a Rep from Bohning about just that. It has been pretty obvious over the last 10 years that the manufactures are drifting /moving toward completely replacing glue on nocks for Aluminum/carbon/glass shafts.
Easton with the uni-bushing.
I love glue on nocks for several reasons.....Cost-durability-fit as in "string to nock"... With the uni-bushing system, we are VERY limited in choices , and even more limited in how they fit our standard stickbow strings . (Yes I know about and have tried the skinny strings...I'll leave that to another thread;)
My request/suggestion......If they are going to go full out uni-bushing systems...then Bohning should engineer/design a universal uni-bushing NOCK....as in offer all the various nocks/nock fits in a uni-bushing style nock. Say the Classic index nock in a uni-bushing system !
They liked the idea , and stated the upfront cost would be great , but likely something they would eventually get to .
So my suggestion to you my brothers & sisters , contact bohning & Easton with these request...until they take notice of the issue.
I really don't like the uni-bushing system for a few reasons....FIT & cost being the weight of the issues. ....but , give me my Classic index on that uni-bushing system and I can live with that..
Another option would be someone to design/manufacture an adapter to fit all the uni-bushing systems/sizes that allows the usage of glue on nocks. Have been several in the past in Very limited sizes...
We will always need the glue on for wood shooters that don't do self nocks, but with Aluminum and even carbon....getting the manufactures to make what we want/need is the only way to fix this issue with nock fit.
Heating nocks, adding dental floss to the serving , etc...etc.. will work , but it's only treating the issue. Fixing the nocks cures it ......Just something to think about ....then act upon , and contact Bohning & Easton ....jm2cents... :campfire:
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Let me start by saying I have zero experience with carbon as I've never had any. I've been shooting for a lot of years and have used aluminum and wood extensively. I shoot almost all wood now and have for quite a number of years. Like 30+. Before that I shot a mixture of wood or aluminum.
I've just never seen the issues some mention with aluminum. My observation is that guys would chase speed with compounds before carbons were widespread and would shoot the thin wall aluminum which would break easily on a hit that my 2018's or 2020's would just shrug off.
The choice of what I shoot is not dictated by durability on poor hits. It's based on what works for me and aluminum will always be in my arsenal as it is so easy to buy the correct spine and it's always the same. I'm not a fan of the new nocks as all of mine are still the swaged shafts where I glue on the same nock as my woods.
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I prefer woodies for hunting shaft, but 3D shoots can be hard on them. Have shot aluminum for practice ,3D shoots and hunting for over 40 years. Over the years have used lots of different spine Easton shafts and 2016 or 2018s shoots great and easy to tune out of my longbows and some of my recurves. I agree with a lot of said in posts above, but have been straightening aluminum when needed for most of the 40 years shooting and have also taken game with arrows that have been straightened , must not be good enough shot to know I should junk them. Had a dozen carbons they were a pain to get tuned and gave them away to some one that wanted them.
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I like Ralph's idea of an adapter for the uni-bushing to allow glue on nocks, might be less costly than developing nocks to fit the system.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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Not sure if still available from Easton, I have had these a long time. But could remove the bushing and glue these on for nock of your choice.
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Consistency and weight, but I do like FMJ also. I was shooting 400 FMJ out of my 51# Black Widow PSA today, and they were flying great.
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Hey Dan (DGW)
Yep,
Someone made a couple sizes of the type nock adapters you posted pictures of..Thank you ;)
Someone also makes one designed for carbon shafts made of aluminum. I used those with a dozen carbon shafts I purchased yrs ago. 3 Rivers might still offer those,and yes ...they fit directly into a specific dia. shaft . So they are very limited in application....
That being my point ;^) Someone needs to develope something very similar in an adapter that fits the uni-bushing system's....Be it Easton or bohning ...or ?
Could likley be made of various type materials...from pvc-aluminum . Cost and efficiency would likely dictate that...
Contact your retailers & arrow manufactures and be heard on the subject. I suspect bohning would like to keep sales of the classic index going . An adapter would do that .....Likely cheaper to make a couple dyes /molds for adapters compared to several for the various uni-bushing type systems /sizes /nock types....... :campfire:
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Ralph, I agree a insert that fits the uni would work for all shafts with the bushing and would be great. Over the years I have collected a large amount of shafts that will last me a long time I prefer the old Nirk nock on my woods and aluminum.
I always spin all my arrows on my thumb while shooting to check if straight , works great with wood and aluminum didn't work on carbon shafts a lot did not spin true when new and as said never wanted carbon slivers in my hand or arm when they fail.
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Daniel;
Also, have a couple hundred wood shafts, waiting. Also, have @100 - 2219 waiting should I decide to go that route for hogs. Several dozen 2314 for 3-D.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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I shoot stout bows also 60 to 70 pounds.And I have no need for aluminums anymore for the last twenty years. Aluminum arrows are too fragile.
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And 2020's use a different bushing and a G-nock. Just like automobiles, more unwanted components means more profit.
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I find that 2215, 2219, 2314, and 2315 cover most of what I need from mid 50's to 70#. With 160 grain plus heads. 2314 makes a good flat shooting 3-D arrow, but is probably the least durable. 2215 is good for low 50# bows, but haven't shot that in a bit. 2219 and 2315 are good for the majority of my bows, but really lean to 2219 for weight and toughness. Really like the 22xx arrows, as a whole. That being said, I've been rocking the same dozen tapered and footed shafts for two years. Several pigs have benefited from these arrows.
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New to the forum and to traditional hunting… so yes, I am a dreaded compound hunter. But trying to convert. This topic is very interesting because I will need some new arrows soon for my traditional bow, I won last year. I did use aluminum arrows back in the 80’s and 90’s with a compound and loved them but didn’t have anything else to compare them to. I bought a dozen Easton Axis arrows in 2018 and still hunt with 10 of the original arrows. The other 2 were damaged and were retired.All this to ask, is consistency mentioned above because of the flex needed to get off the shelf or something or are they just more forgiving to traditional style release? With a compound and a mechanical release, carbon arrows can be stacked at 30 yards in a quarter size group and I would assume the same could be done with aluminum, I just don’t shoot them to make that personal claim. So, is there a difference in how a traditional bow shoots aluminum, wood or carbon assuming they are all tuned properly?
Please be gentle, I am just very curious and want to learn.
Thanks
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Generally, the shooter is only as good as the arrow. Bows and arrows are always capable of more accuracy then a shooter can produce. A hand release will most always be less efficient than a release aid. Traditional bows off the shelf usually like feather fletch better, an elevated rest changes that. Getting arrows spined and tuned for you bow is the key. Shooting accuracy then depends on you.
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Thanks you for the reply. I am still not clear on if there is a clear advantage of wood, aluminum or carbon, as far a consistency goes. I have a lot to learn and I understand, I have to put in a lot of work on building a consistent shot cycle and release. So, hypothetically if I developed a great shot and for some reason was able to reproduce that shot cycle for 300 consecutive shots. Would there be a difference in groupings from shooting 100 each of wood, aluminum or carbon, assuming each arrow is tuned perfectly. Will a single arrow’s flight pattern change some from shot to shot, or hypothetically everything is exactly the same it should hit the same hole? I realize these are ignorant questions but I want to do everything possible to make ethical shots…. and I will not pull my long bow back on a deer until I can be consistent and confident enough to make ethical shots.
Again, thanks for the help and advice.
Side note I would love to shoot cedar arrows one day but I know that will have to wait.
The bow I won, is a Big Jim Buffalo long bow, 60” 46#@ 28”, and I am shooting off the shelf. I don’t shoot this bow as I am using a 25# Sage recurve to work on developing a shot cycle.
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My wish is that aluminum still came 34” long. With a 31.5” draw I don’t look like having the broad head close to the riser/hand.
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You may be able to reach out to Easton and get some custom length tubing, had a friends years ago who did that.
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