Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 15, 2024, 08:59:34 PM
I just got a new Bear Super Grizzly, 50# @ 28.
I took an average of my actual draw weight and it comes out to 54 pounds. I don't think my draw length is much over 28". When I measure it it comes to 28 3/4. That's beside the point I think.
I'm shooting a Black Eagle Vintage 350 spine with the aluminum insert that came with them. Cut to 30 1/2" long; 150 grain point; 3x4" feathers.
I shoot split finger, with a glove.
The spine calculator says the arrow should be under spined by around 5#.
When I shoot the arrows they fly very weak spined (nock left). I don't want to cut the arrows anymore, they are only hanging past the back of the bow 1/2" at full draw. I practice quite a bit, and have been working form and release alot lately. Yes I am holding the bow vertical, and have about 75 to 100 arrows through the bow.
Am I missing something? Is there something in my release I might be doing wrong? I haven't tried 300 spine arrows, and as bad as the arrow is flying, I don't think a 125 or 100 grain point will help.
I have tuned my Ben Pearson Colt, so I know I'm doing something right, and I really don't want to go under a 150 grain point on the Bear, as it is going to be my hunting bow.
Thanks for any advice.
P.S. I am shooting at 10 yards
Post by: Orion on April 15, 2024, 10:02:28 PM
Something else seems a little out of whack. You say your draw is 28 3/4, but also indicate your 30 1/2-inch arrow is only a half inch beyond the back of the bow at full draw, which would indicate a 30-inch draw. Or is that after cutting down the 30 1/2-inch arrow?
Regardless, if you do have a 30-inch draw, which would require more spine than a 28 3/4-inch draw, I still think you would be overspined. Would probably need another 100-150 grains up front to get the arrows flying straight. For what it's worth, if your draw is about 28 3/4, I think you're closer to needing a 500 spine arrow if you want to stay with 150 grains up front.
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 15, 2024, 11:05:35 PM
On the point of over spined, you saying that brings to my attention that I noticed on the side plate, there is a slight ware mark that looks like the arrow is rubbing it. Way over spined might be it. I was thinking it was because the arrow was too under spined. It does make sense a stiff arrow would come off the string to the right, rubbing the side plate.
Thank you for the insight, at least now I have a direction to move in.
Post by: McDave on April 16, 2024, 05:41:46 AM
It is not difficult to measure draw length on a trad bow. The simplest way, if you have some help, is to have someone put a mark with a magic marker on the arrow where it crosses the back of the bow while you are at full draw. Do that several times and find the midpoint of the marks (hopefully they're not too far apart). If you don't have someone to help you, you can cut a piece of cardboard into a 2” square and put a hole in the middle that fits snugly onto the arrow, so it stays put when you move it up and down the arrow. Put it on the arrow a little closer that you think your draw length is, draw the bow, and mark the spot where the cardboard ends up. Do that several times and average the distances.
Draw length is measured from the valley of the arrow nock (the deepest part of the nock) to the marks you made on the arrow. This isn't exact, but it's close enough for our purposes here. Arrow length is measured from the valley of the nock to the base of the point. The length of the point is not included in arrow length.
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 16, 2024, 06:38:38 AM
This measurement means my draw length is 30".
Thanks again
Post by: McDave on April 16, 2024, 09:19:08 AM
Post by: Wheels2 on April 16, 2024, 10:01:10 AM
I like the method listed, using a piece of cardboard or an index card to measure true draw. You can also set up your phone to video you draw. Focusing on the front of the bow as seen from the side.
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 16, 2024, 10:09:58 AM
I've been curious about the AMO adding 1.75. I wasn't sure if that's just for the bow draw length, or for the archer too.
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 16, 2024, 10:15:20 AM
I have done bare shafting. I weighed all the components ;insert, feathers, nock, point, and total arrow weight. I do put tape on the back of the shaft to cover feather weight. Bare shafts fly almost completely sideways. Then I put fletching on the arrow to see if maybe I would see something I was doing wrong. Same thing, at 10 yards, arrow flies completely sideways to the target.
That said, I agree I think it's bouncing off of the side plate.
Post by: McDave on April 16, 2024, 10:41:13 AM
Yeah, my brace height is good. When I shot compounds I always measured by the wing span method, and it always came out 28.5" to 28.75", that's why I assumed I measured from the deep spot of the grip because that's about 28".I thought this because I've heard shooting traditional would most likely make draw length shorter.
I've been curious about the AMO adding 1.75. I wasn't sure if that's just for the bow draw length, or for the archer too.
Based on what you said above, I suspect that you are hauling back with your biceps rather than using your back muscles. If you have strong biceps, you can haul the arrow back to your ear and beyond, but lose accuracy in the process. The wing span method of measuring draw length is only an approximation, but it shouldn't be that far off. Using your back muscles, you have an automatic door stop that keeps you from drawing back any further than your actual draw length.
BTW, the reason AMO adds 1.75” is because that is the average distance between the pressure point of the arrow on the strike plate and the back of most bows. I'll bet Bear risers are pretty close to that, so you shouldn't be far off actual draw length by measuring to the back of the riser.
Post by: Orion on April 16, 2024, 11:12:33 AM
But, as I suggested earlier, I think your shafts are too stiff, even at a 30-inch draw length. If your bow is 50#@28, it's in the neighborhood of 55#@30. And you're shooting a relatively light front end. If you have any heavy inserts/and or heavier points, try to put about 300 grains up front and see what happens. I'm pretty sure it will confirm my assessment. Or, if you have some 500 spined shafts, or can borrow a few from a friend, give them a try with 150 grains up front. Given your long draw, you may need to go with 400s, but I'd give 500s a try first. Good luck.
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 16, 2024, 12:09:40 PM
I have shot 2117 aluminum (400 spine) arrows with the 150's and it flies hard left too.
I have a field point test kit, and after work I'm going to start moving up in weight, and see what happens.
Looking at slow mo videos I've been taking, I believe you are both right. I think the arrow is bouncing off of the striker plate. The sideways flight is so drastic and exaggerated. Other bows I've tuned showed soft spine while tuning, but the flight was not so extreme, and the fletching would correct it well before reaching the target. These bare shaft hit the target almost completely sideways, and with fletching, they don't start to correct until a few feet in front of the target from 12 to 13 yards.
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 16, 2024, 12:27:02 PM
These are pictures of me at full draw with my 40# Ben Pearson Colt, and of my draw length arrow on my Ben Pearson BP-H90 47#, at full draw, up close.
I was bare shaft tuning the arrows for the Colt when this photo was taken.
Post by: Wudstix on April 16, 2024, 12:37:30 PM
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 16, 2024, 12:42:28 PM
Post by: Wudstix on April 16, 2024, 01:19:39 PM
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
Post by: Flbowhunter on April 16, 2024, 01:58:59 PM
As a note I agree with everyone above that you are likely getting a false weak. I’m shooting roughly the same poundage on 3 different bows (52-54) and a black eagle 340 with about 225 up front tunes to all of them in the 32.75-33” range.
Post by: Kelly on April 16, 2024, 09:12:54 PM
Ones true draw can not be measured when drawing a bow just for the sake of measuring. Your true draw is that when concentrating totally at shooting, then having someone watching you to see how much arrow is sticking out from the back of bow. It’s almost always shorter than the archer thinks.
Post by: pdk25 on April 17, 2024, 02:14:24 AM
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 17, 2024, 05:38:49 AM
I'm working 7/12's right now, it's hard to find enough time to fully tune in one session, so I'm doing a little at a time every day.
On the point about measuring while shooting, I'm going to measure and mark an arrow to measure the length while I'm shooting. That is a very good point.
Patrick, thank you for the offer, and if I lived near you I would take you up on it. I'm on the coast in Southeast Texas.
Post by: Orion on April 17, 2024, 10:13:44 AM
Post by: Wudstix on April 17, 2024, 04:23:13 PM
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
Post by: Michpatriot on April 17, 2024, 05:18:44 PM
Black Eagle spine chart online is not the same as on the box..kRaZy! I found they are a whole spine different depending on where you end up length and weight between the two charts..but the chart on the box is right on for me. I don't make changes based on knock left or right in the air..only in the bale..and if mine are close I also tune by twisting string..tighter twist=right Less twist=left..for a right handed shooter. Knock hi\lo adjustment is on the string Nock points for getting rid of the hop. This same bow and arrows tune perfect for me using a Abowyer 150gr two blade broad head and the black eagle aluminum 14gr insert..you can also try a looser nock to string fit..too tight can be nutty to tune with..
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 18, 2024, 08:27:13 AM
To start with I've been looking at arrow spine charts. Easton's chart says the 2117 arrows I have are going to be too stiff at the length I want with 200gr. points. This makes sense, they are the first arrows I shot with this bow trying to tune it, and I do believe I was getting false weak readings. These are also the arrows that left the marks on my side plate. The Black Eagle chart says with the 200 gr. I want up front, at 30.5-31.5" long, I need a 300 spine. Black Eagle also says to measure the arrow from the nock throat to the tip of the point, that is confusing.
I have the Black Eagle test kit I bought when I was tuning my 40# Colt. They're already cut, but I figured I could play with point weight to see what would happen.
I tried 500 spines, which were constantly weak, I went as low as 100 gr. points, and never got them straight. I expected this.
I then went to 400 spine, I went as low as 125, and was still showing slightly weak, but not straight. I know these are TRUE weak readings, because the angle was getting better.
I then went back to the 350 spine, and I put a 300 gr. point in it. I figured with 300 if it is weak it should be a true reading. It hits the target straight on, there is the slightest bit of movement, but I can't tell if it's coming off the bow weak or strong, due to low light, but it is absolutely flying significantly straighter.
My next move is to shoot these 350's with 300gr. at 20 yards and look at the arrow flight in slow motion with my phone to see what's going on.
The arrows are 30.5" long, maybe a tad short, but if I can get these close, I think the 350's are what I need. I know I will need to tune whatever shafts I I land on, and I will. I just don't want to spend the money on a test kit, when what I have should get me close enough, and I think I'm in the ball park.
My goal is to shoot 200 gr. up front, and I am surprised the 350 spines are looking like what I need so far.
All this said, I did mark the 400 gr. test arrow in 1/4" increments so I can use my phone in slow motion, shoot the arrow into the target a number of times, take an average, and get my actual draw length.
I will post my results as I get them. I do want to thank everyone for all the help, and advise. I'm learning alot.
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 18, 2024, 08:33:21 AM
Post by: Orion on April 18, 2024, 11:38:41 AM
I assumed from your first post, shooting 150 grain points, that that is the weight you wanted to arrive at. But you're saying you want 200 grains up front. That might work on the 350 shafts if you leave them full length. But, if all your shafts are already shortened, it's heavier than you want.
Seems you have two options. 1. Go with the heavier front end weight on the existing 350 shafts, or 2) try the 400s with about 200 grains up front. They both should fly good. 3. Of course, if you have full length 350 shafts, 200 grains up front might work for them.
Keep us apprised. :goldtooth:
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 18, 2024, 04:10:25 PM
I only have the one 350 from a test kit I bought for my other bow, and it is cut to 30.5". I'm sure the longer 350's will work between 150 and 200.
Post by: Orion on April 18, 2024, 04:37:48 PM
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 18, 2024, 05:00:10 PM
Post by: Kelly on April 18, 2024, 05:24:54 PM
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 18, 2024, 06:25:47 PM
Post by: Undomesticated on April 18, 2024, 06:40:42 PM
For some reason or another, I'm not getting that. 350 with 300 appears to be close to good. 400 with 125 still shows obviously weak. each arrow shot 5 times. Both shafts cut to 30.5"
Hello, Grumpyfoot.
A persistent “weak” arrow indication even with arrows that should be plenty stiff is often indicative of a collapse (even if slight).
Without watching you shoot, this would be my guess. It would be helpful if you could get a few more photos or video of you shooting. Based on the the images you posted, I would say you aren’t quite in alignment. This leads me to believe more strongly that your problem is indeed collapse related.
It might be time to hit the blank bale and work on form and then get back to tuning.
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 18, 2024, 07:08:17 PM
Post by: Wudstix on April 18, 2024, 10:17:49 PM
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 19, 2024, 10:14:36 AM
On the subjects of plucking and collapse: Again I videoed myself drawing and releasing 7 times. I am trying to figure out how t upload a video from my phone, but haven't figured it out (iphone). I am absolutely Not plucking the string. As far as collapse, on one of the shots it looks like I moved my head ever so slightly just before release, and I might have lowered the string, Might Have. If I did it was very slight, and almost unnoticeable. The other 6 releases, no movement is noticeable at all before release. So I will say no collapse.
As far as spine: Kelly said 400 spine with 200gr. is the same as 350 spine with 300gr. I don't know, could be. What I do know after about 20-30 shots is a 30.5" 400 spine arrow with 125gr. is hitting the target at very close to the same angle as the 30.5" 350 spine arrow with 300gr. Both weak.
Post by: Undomesticated on April 19, 2024, 12:54:11 PM
Update: So I marked an arrow and shot it 7 times, filming myself in slow motion, and viewing it zoomed in. My draw length is 28.75" confirmed. All 7 shots, the arrow stopped at the back of the bow at the same mark. So that problem is solved. Thanks for the tip Kelly, I wouldn't have guessed it would be that different.
On the subjects of plucking and collapse: Again I videoed myself drawing and releasing 7 times. I am trying to figure out how t upload a video from my phone, but haven't figured it out (iphone). I am absolutely Not plucking the string. As far as collapse, on one of the shots it looks like I moved my head ever so slightly just before release, and I might have lowered the string, Might Have. If I did it was very slight, and almost unnoticeable. The other 6 releases, no movement is noticeable at all before release. So I will say no collapse.
As far as spine: Kelly said 400 spine with 200gr. is the same as 350 spine with 300gr. I don't know, could be. What I do know after about 20-30 shots is a 30.5" 400 spine arrow with 125gr. is hitting the target at very close to the same angle as the 30.5" 350 spine arrow with 300gr. Both weak.
What do you mean by “no movement?”
I would suggest that if there truly is no visible movement, you are in fact collapsing to a small degree. There are some archers that shoot well like that, but they are anomalies.
I *think* you are short of alignment (based on limited information). This is going to give a sloppy release. Your weak wrist position displayed in your photo only contributes to this.
Here are things to try:
*Raise your nock point to start. 5/8-3/4”. Re-try what you are doing.
*Raise your brace height. The Super Grizz likes a high BH
*Work on your alignment. Proper alignment should come from scapular rotation, but for now, just focus on drawing and anchoring to a deeper location on your face.
*Work on your dynamic release. There should be movement visible on video. NEVER STOP PULLING!
I am mostly convinced your tuning issue is related to your release in some way. We just have to iron it out.
Post by: Undomesticated on April 19, 2024, 01:01:23 PM
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 19, 2024, 03:25:19 PM
What I mean by no movement is what I said, no movement before release. My elbow is not moving forward, nothing is moving forward. Upon release there is movement. At full draw, I hit my natural wall, my shoulder blade is pulled to the center of my back as my shoulder will allow. The tip of my pointer finger is in the corner of my mouth, and the lower corner of my jaw bone is nestled between the two knuckles of my thumb. On release, I pull my shoulder blade further to the center of my back, which rotates my shoulder and elbow towards the middle of my back. As I do this it pulls the string out of my fingers. I focus very hard on not letting go of the string, I just stop holding it.
That is the best way I can explain it. Again, i will try to get the video loaded, it's worth more than 1,000 useless words.
Post by: Undomesticated on April 19, 2024, 03:41:57 PM
When in doubt, you can’t really go wrong increasing both. I used to have a super grizzly. I think it tuned at 3/4” nock point and 8.5” brace (but ai shoot 3-under). It is a fairly short bow for your draw length, it is reasonable that they are “finicky.”
You could also try putting a $5 Bear Weatherrest on it. Bear doesn’t sculpt their shelves to minimize contact.
Post by: Undomesticated on April 19, 2024, 03:55:55 PM
Is your bow arm strong?
Holding tension 2-3 seconds after the shot?
Possibly torquing the string at full draw?
Like I said, to me, it looks like you are drawing a bit short for your body. Your wrist looks bent inward slightly, but I can’t tell for sure from the photo. This would be my recommendation, in this order:
1) Confirm nock point height. If it is less than 3/4”, start raising it in 1/8” increments until you get to 3/4”.
2) Confirm brace height. If less than 8.75”, start increasing it by 1/4” at a time while re-testing.
3) Start addressing your shooting. Stop with the corner of mouth anchor. Start moving rearward from your current anchor, one tooth at a time. You might be amazed what happens when you find perfect alignment.
Also, are you using a double nock set? (One below, one above the arrow?)
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 19, 2024, 05:52:53 PM
I don't think my wrist is bent, I can't see it, and I haven't tried to catch it on camera. I'll try to catch that. I do know that my wrist feels relaxed , I'm trying to relax it through the shot cycle, and I think I am. I will pay closer attention the next time I shoot.
My bow arm is pretty strong, when I draw, i roll my elbow out just a bit, and I don't lock my elbow. I keep it slightly bent. The pressure of the grip stays on the meaty part if the palm in line with the webbing of the thumb, with even vertical pressure. I try to lightly hold the back of bow with my index finger, and middle finger.
I don't count how long I hold at full draw. When I reach anchor I focus on the spot and start slowly tightening my back muscles until my fingers slide off of the string. I will see how long that sequence lasts the next time I shoot as well.
I like the idea of anchoring to a tooth, I will look into that. Thanks for the tip.
By the way, nock tension is good. Not tight but not loose. I can slide the nock on the string when it snaps on, but it doesn't slide by just the weight of the arrow sitting on the shelf.
I have tried the weather rest, but honestly I just don't like it. If it comes to it I'll do what I did with my Ben Pearsons and put a piece of leather lace on the shelf under the rest.
Post by: Flbowhunter on April 19, 2024, 06:11:23 PM
Post by: Undomesticated on April 19, 2024, 07:02:07 PM
Yeah, I forgot to mention it. Brace height is 8". I'm trying to keep it in the middle of recommended until I get the arrows a bit closer. Nock point is set at 1/2", so that's something to check out. I am currently only using one nock point.
I don't think my wrist is bent, I can't see it, and I haven't tried to catch it on camera. I'll try to catch that. I do know that my wrist feels relaxed , I'm trying to relax it through the shot cycle, and I think I am. I will pay closer attention the next time I shoot.
My bow arm is pretty strong, when I draw, i roll my elbow out just a bit, and I don't lock my elbow. I keep it slightly bent. The pressure of the grip stays on the meaty part if the palm in line with the webbing of the thumb, with even vertical pressure. I try to lightly hold the back of bow with my index finger, and middle finger.
I don't count how long I hold at full draw. When I reach anchor I focus on the spot and start slowly tightening my back muscles until my fingers slide off of the string. I will see how long that sequence lasts the next time I shoot as well.
I like the idea of anchoring to a tooth, I will look into that. Thanks for the tip.
By the way, nock tension is good. Not tight but not loose. I can slide the nock on the string when it snaps on, but it doesn't slide by just the weight of the arrow sitting on the shelf.
I have tried the weather rest, but honestly I just don't like it. If it comes to it I'll do what I did with my Ben Pearsons and put a piece of leather lace on the shelf under the rest.
Tie in a second nock point so you can 100% say it isn’t that. Bump up that nock point to 5/8”.
Besides that, i think you have plenty of form issues to tinker with. I look forward to seeing what you figure out.
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 19, 2024, 07:12:16 PM
I will try the second nock point, I've never done it before, but it is absolutely worth trying out.
Thanks for all the help, and time spent.
Post by: Kelly on April 20, 2024, 02:18:14 PM
My advice is get your form done Pat, first.
All of the recommended things to try mentioned above are good, but don’t try those changes while bareshafting. Get some fletched arrows, take the target of your bales, only draw a vertical line for reference. Now work on your form till you find what you like and can repeat that every shot with no hesitation. Then you can try bareshaft.
Oh and I might suggest you do this form work from a seated position so the non Archery working parts of your body are at rest. And focus more on your anchor/keep pulling, release will happen. During this process don’t worry or think about accuracy, just get your form down. The computer on top of your shoulders will take care of accuracy at a later date. You want muscle memory to take care of repeatable form.
Good luck!
Post by: Grumpyfoot on April 20, 2024, 05:57:09 PM