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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Peckerwood on July 06, 2008, 08:19:00 PM
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I recently had one of those "you have to try this " experiences that has really proven its worth. While at the Sawmill shoot I shot Ridge Runner's ( Tony Picarelli ) Schafer 1 piece. I told him that I didn't like non fast flight bows but he said you have to try this . I was impressed . There was non of that after shot vibration and VERY quiet. Tony said that was due to an endless loop Dacron string. I have either shot or owned a lot of top recurves but stick to shooting longbows because they seem to be more quiet and low hand shock. This weekend I put b-50 on my Dye recurves ( which have good manners to begin with ). Dead silence and no vibration after the shot. I fell in love with shooting my recurves again.
If you haven't tried a Dacron endless loop string on your recurve , you owe it to yourself to give it a try.
Now I have to remember how to make an endless loop string. :knothead:
Bill
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I use B-50 on all of my bows...Black Widow, Robertson, Wes Wallace...the extra noise just isn't worth the extra 5 fps. Couple years ago I was out stump shooting in January when a grouse landed out in front of me offering a shot that I would generally make without too much trouble....damn bird actually jumped half a foot sideways at the sound of my release. That was the last time I ever shot fast flite. I've even taken it a little further by crafting my own flemish strings and using 16 strands where 14 would do just fine. The thicker string makes my bow even quieter.
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i'm a new tradder and have shot nothing but b-50. i've just ordered a new recurve that includes a f/flight string. so i can't wait to see what it's like. sounds (pardon the pun) like i'll settle for b-50.
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I built a 58" hybrid a couple of years ago and had a 12 strand D97 string that twanged no matter what brace height. I put a 14 strand dacron flemish on it and it made a world of difference in the noise level.-Pup
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I've made 100s & 100s of endless strings since 1960, and on my old recurves from back then, I use dacron B-50. However, I find that I like the qualities of D-97 more & more lately. I now use it on all the selfbows I build, osage, hickory, BBO, BBH, It seems to give me a more solid shot feel.I use 10-12 strands D-97, 10-12 strand B-50 also, on 38-44# bows.Padded loops. Small 8 strand wool yarn puffs are all I use to quiet longbows for me . I also shoot flemish strings made from D-97. Bill G.
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I've never noticed that ugly vibration caused by B-50...I think it is and has been overstated to say the least. I have been getting more friendly toward the low stretch strings but I have dacron on my bows right now and am quite happy. And...you should be able to quiet a bow string without putting half a beaver pelt on the string.
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nothing but b-50 for me, but I have only made 2 shooter bows & own one shrew....
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dacron on my FF silvertip.. fast and quiet. no complaints from me
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It can vary with the bow. I personally haven't owned/shot a bow that went from "polite" with dacron to "rude" with FF type materials to dacron, or flemish to endless. I have shot a few, and own two now (selfbows), that I simply won't shoot with a dacron string--too much hand shock. The three I shoot the most are all very quiet with Dynaflight '97 and a small set of cat whisker silencers.
There's a lot more benefits to FF type materials than 5 fps--I'd shoot Dynaflight if it was 5 fps slower, as long as the other benefits remained--reduced hand shock, reduced stretch/creep, increased durability.
Chad
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My experiences have been like Chad's, repeated across dozens of bows in my case and across 10 or more bowyers I've talked to, both glass a selfbowyers, hobbiests and professionals, and some big names too. When I read these threads I just have to shake my head a wonder. I just can't reconcile the differences.
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I use D 97 , TS1 and fast flight on most all my bows but seem to like the way B50 shoots on my recurves. I see a lot guys with padded limbs , lots of string silencers and limb savers to quiet their bows. I have found that little is needed to quiet a recurve with B 50. I didn't want to start a one type is better than another thread or make someone shake their head. It was just a small observation on my part that I thought might help .
Bill
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On my recurves that use dacron I prefer to spin up an endless loop dacron string for them.But I still prefer D97 for my longbows.On some longbows B50 can give you a alot of handshock,that's why I like D97 on them.
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I agree 95% of the time.
Recurve=B50 Longbow=T1
I do have one Static limb recurve that is super quiet with a modern string. But it is the acception to the rule.
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I understand PW, and didn't take it that way. I have a lot of folks contact me and ask "what's the best string/string material". Man, I wish there was an easy answer for that one! Some materials are going to be faster, some are going to have less stretch/creep, but when you get to "feel", noise, etc. etc. etc. the only way to know what is going to work best for you on a particular bow is to try several different ones and find out (and even different strand counts of the same material). Some bows are forgiving when it comes to string material, some "like" one better than the other. Also, you have to re-tune when you try a different string--you might get lucky, but generally speaking you won't get the best results if you just swap strings and set the brace the same, put the silencers in the same place, etc.--that can make a big difference. Lots of folks don't realize you can tune the silencers--moving them an inch or so up or down the string can make a big difference on some bows--works better than just adding more silencers.
Chad
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When i got my "new to me" Snakebit, it came with a FF string that was some hard stuff. the bow shot fast and flat but was loud. I had a custom B50 string made up for it (Thanks Jim!) and that quieted the bow down, big time. But, the point of impact of my arrow dropped from where it was hitting at 20yrds with the FF string. I bought a different (D97) FF string and regained my point of impact and the bow stayed quiet this time with the different FF string.
Moral of the story; not all strings are the same and, as Chad stated, they all have different qualities depending on the particular bow. I like FF and B50 but prefer to shoot FF.
Jerry
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I just got an Elburg longbow that came with a FF string. Shot at 158 fps. on chrono, but string was worn a bit, so I went with a new B-50 16 strand string. The speed dropped to 149 fps., but I was absolutely blown away by the dead silence of the bow. I have 7 other bows, all FF strings, and I will go to B-50 on each next time. I will sacrifice speed for silence.
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Pwood: What were the loop areas of your string served with? In the old days, they were served with monofilament, which was very noisy slapping on recurve limbs. Of course, nylon is quite a bit softer and quieter. If you like endless loop strings, there's no reason they can't be tied with fast flite type material.
As others have already pointed out, not all fast flite materials are the same. Consensus seems to be that D-97 is quieter than most others and quieter than dacron as well. That's certainly been my experience. I still shoot both, but there's no doubt that a fast flite type string reduces bow vibration and increases performance vis a vis dacron.
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Personally my experience has been that it is far more important that the string be well made-right number of strands, padded loops etc.
I use some B50 and mostly D-97; not all bows have the same tastes in string material. Fast Flight just hasn't worked as well for me-too noisy.
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No worries about me shakin' my head Peckerwood.
I think it's the generalizations I have a hard time with, in addition to experiences which directly contradict others' testimony. With recurves the biggest contributor to noise for me was limb slap. I had to go to 450+ to get rid of it on 2 bows. I agree D97 is excellent. I use old FF on selfbows and glass longbows because it's cheap and even if there is a little stretch, compared to lower stretch, it doesn't contribute to noise via limb slap.
The one absolute in all of this is, vibration and noise are the same thing. Low stretch strings vibrate less. It's as simple as that.
Now given the wide spectrum of our experiences, I have to conclude that other factors contribute to the equation and each of us perhaps fails to take into account all the things, and there are many as has been alluded to, which contribute to whether a particular setup is loud or quiet.
A question for those who've made the switch back to B50. Do you take into account the difference in string mass, and add that back to the arrow?
Because if you don't, is that a fair comparison?
For example, a 150 grain string and 500 grain arrow won't shoot as quiet from ANY bow as a 250 grain string and a 500 grain arrow. Just a thought. I'd rather run a 150 grain string and add 50 grains back to my arrow. Get more out of the bow, quiet it at the same time not to mention all the other advantages, less handshock, longevity, etc. that modern materials provide.
Also tuning for harmonics, what Chad was talking about by placing a small string mass (ie. "silencers") strategically to minimize harmonic vibration. Each setup will have a unique optimum setup. I've had to fiddle with a bow for weeks to find the best setup. But I eventually learned, there ain't no fixing limb slap no matter what you do.
Honestly, having written all of this, I can't find an application for B50 I like, with the exception of old 70s era glass bows which lack built-up nock overlays and string grooves. Even as a tillering string I find B50 lacking, as I require a string a good 1" to 2" shorter, forcing me to bend the bow farther than needed to brace it only to have have all that 2" stretch right back out before me eyes.
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you havent tried one of Bobbys B50 strings then! You cant make these things stretch. Brand new string, put on bow couple weeks ago, good thousand shots later my brace moved under 1/8 inch and hasnt budged since. I have had other lower quality b50 strings that required tweaking daily it seems, start with a 7 3/4 brace, couple days it would be 6 1/2 lol
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No, I make my own strings. LOL. It's about the most fundamental skill an archer can have, beyond fletching. But I have seen strings with too much twist, which will tend to be more elastic than others. I try to have 3 twist per inch or more in the loops, less in the body of the string. And if not pre-stretched they will sure creep a lot initially as you say. B50 certainly more than others. So much so a (smart) string maker has to take this into account, making the string shorter and stretching it to fit the application. But I'm talking about stretch not creep. You can stretch the creep out, but not the stretch. Poor choice of words, I admit. LOL I don't think Bobby can change the working properties of the material with contruction. That FF et. al. are superior in every measurable attribute is well understood, published, and as far as I can tell not in dispute here.
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My Predator came with a D-97 FF. I shot about a dozen arrows out of it, took it off and threw it away. My first and last experience with FF. Always shot with B-50, always will.
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Limbs are made different as well and some are much softer than others. My Blacktail has real soft limbs. When you bang on the riser the limbs wobble. My Black Widow and Whisperstiks have much stiffer limbs. All four bows are within two pounds of each other. I would think the softer the limb the more vibration that would be produced during the shot.
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I only own one bow that is FF compatible and I sold the limbs. I guess I'm stuck with B50. I think it is just more of a nostalgia thing with me, I would probably try linen if I knew where to get it.
Bob
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Not doubting the quality of Bobby's strings (actually never saw one as far as I know), but it doesn't matter how well made it is, dacron (B-50 and B-500) stretches--that's a simple fact.
With my jig, I pre-stretch the strings under 250-300 lbs of torque (I've broken 10-strand dacron strings on my jig). No matter how much you pre-stretch, it will retract--even Dynaflight, 8125, and 450+ have some elasticity, although it's nowhere near as much as dacron.
DCM, other than using it for old bows, dacron is good for padding the loops on the newer materials--seems to help quieten limb slap a little.
I also think you nailed it about tuning--I know I've been guilty of swapping strings and not taking the time to tune it properly, and then get aggravated when it was noisy. Takes a little effort on our part.
Draw weight, leaving it on the bow or unstringing, temperature (the hotter it gets, the more it will stretch), number of strands in the string, etc. all have an effect Pre-stretching does help a lot, but it won't keep dacron from stretching.
Almost forgot--Bill, I have tried an endless loop dacron on my recurve, trying to get a fishing arrow to fly better (I make endless strings as well as flemish). I still prefer flemish Dynaflight. :D
Chad
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Bill, I was getting some string slap and twang out of my blacktail. This is magnified by my light arrow weight (401 grains). I read your post and ordered a D-50 from Norm at Blacktail. The string came today and I've already got the silencers in it and have shot it a couple rounds today. After getting the brace height just right I have no string slap and it's whisper quiet. Thanks for the post.
T.J.
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Some bows will just plain shoot quieter with B-50 and shoot softer.I use all sting types and am not prejudiced toward any material.I just shoot what works best for me on a given bow.
i have been testing a recurve for about a week and tried 4 different low stretch strings on it and was not at all happy with the noise on it.I would not have hunted with the bow thats for sure.I played with knock point,brace hieght over a large range,various string silencers and various placements on the string.Felt in the string grooves and bow hush wrapped on the end of string.heavy arrows etc.etc.It wasnt happening. I got an old 15 st. B-50 out and put some cat whikers on it and walla it was very quiet and had good shooting manners.I enjoyed shooting it!I would hunt with this bow now.But would be very uncomfortable hunting with it with any FF type string.
Thier are times when B-50 is the ticket and times when one of the other options would be better.
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I think the fast-flight strings are great on a longbow but I've never been able to get any recurve quiet ,at least to what I think is quiet, with such strings.
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JCJ, I have two Whisperstiks recurves that have a TS+ FF on them both and they are well..."whisper" quiet. I think a lot of it has to do with the design of the bow and arrow weight.
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I switched from an endless B50 on my FITA bow to a endless FF string. I run no silencers obviously, and I could not believe how much quieter/smoother the bow became. Just goes to show-you never know untilo you try. :campfire: