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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: frassettor on July 21, 2008, 09:44:00 AM
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I was watching a interview last weekend with Byron Ferguson, and the gentleman asked him why he chose the longbow over a recurve, and he had said that its more forgiving. He said that you can make more " errors" and get away with still making the shot. I always thought the recurve is more forgiving then the longbow... Why, and what makes the longbow more forgiving ? :confused:
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Each person has a different idea about that. Recurves are more stable on the shot, mostly due to mass weight. Usually, longbows aren't as fast or "quick-ended" like a recurve and are a little more forgiving of a sloppy release...especially with heavy arrows.
Think of it this way....the faster the arrow, the more significant the miss if a mistake is made on release. Hyper-sensitive bows can be a real pain in the a## in that category. One needs balance in everything.
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I think the longbow is better for weird shot angles. I've had a couple from a treestand that required some circus contortion and the arrow went were I was looking. :bigsmyl:
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A longer bow is harder to torque, most classic D shaped longbows are 66" plus in length. Even shorter longbows usually have more working limb length then most recurves which may help the bow to be torsionally stable.
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Arwin,
I don't think it's the bow that allowed you to make those difficult circus shots. I used to think the same thing, because I always did better at those types of shots. It seemed like the harder the shot the better I was at it. A good friend was watching me shoot one day at a 3-d course and he said that it seemed like I concentrated more on the circus shots than a regular shot. After some experimentation I found he was right, so I think your probably like me and concentrate just a little more on those kind of shots, rather than it being because of bow type. just my 2 cents :bigsmyl:
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I wonder about this too. Here are some specific points i wonder about.
1 I really dont understand the faster arrow idea. I dont get why a faster arrow is more effected by a bad release more than a slow arrow.
Im not saying its wrong - I just dont get it.
2 Byron Ferguson says "if you try to push the tip of long bow from side to side you cant do it, but you can with a recurve. The lack of lateral stability makes the recurve less forging."
What is he talking about?
3 What is Cris talking about - is that the same Byron was dealing with.
Are you saying that if you are holding tight and twisting the bows handle(on a verical axis) on a long bow the plane of the string and the plane of the bow are closer than on short bow when you twist the same?
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doesnt a longer brace height = a more forgiving bow?? :confused:
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Dartwick, think about it this way; if the bow is faster and less forgiving, and you make a mistake on the release, the arrow will be affected more prior to leaving the bow. That is what I'm talking about son. There will be no forgiveness of the mistake...especially with lighter arrows and fast bows. If the bow is shot correctly, there will be no issues with either type bow and the recurve will be more accurate overall...if it has more mass in the riser.
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Originally posted by NightHawk:
Arwin,
I don't think it's the bow that allowed you to make those difficult circus shots. I used to think the same thing, because I always did better at those types of shots. It seemed like the harder the shot the better I was at it. A good friend was watching me shoot one day at a 3-d course and he said that it seemed like I concentrated more on the circus shots than a regular shot. After some experimentation I found he was right, so I think your probably like me and concentrate just a little more on those kind of shots, rather than it being because of bow type. just my 2 cents :bigsmyl:
I'm going to try this next time a deer sneaks up on me. :D
http://www.wildcast.tv/play.php?vid=219
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Oops had to fix that here ya are. Edited the last post.
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I've tried for years to believe that a longbow is more forgiving but I just can't agree . A "takedown" recurve with it's mass weight and center shot riser tends to absorb or allow for more mistakes.
I do believe light mass weight short one piece recurves are more difficult to shoot in comparison to longer length longbows.
I LOVE longbows but for accuracy and stability I'll have to stick with my Schafer recurve "for now"!
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Dartwick, what I was talking about is the same thing Byron is reffering to. Longer bow length usually means more lateral stability, I think this is the reason target recurves are usually much longer then hunting recurves. Of course this is assuming a longbow is in fact longer then a recurve, which is usually the case with classic "D" shaped longbows. Some newer longbow designs are just as short or even shorter then some recurves.
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The way that Quillian illustrated it was to grab the tip of a braced recurve and show how the tip can be twisted easily. Then he would grab the tip of a braced longbow and show how much harder it is to twist the tip. Try it- there's really a lot of difference.
The idea is that if you torque the shot with either hand or make a poor release, the bad form can pull the tips of the recurve out of alignment more easily at the release, which can affect the accuracy of the shot and the flight of the arrow. Hence the longbow is more "forgiving" of bad form.
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Originally posted by frassettor:
doesnt a longer brace height = a more forgiving bow?? :confused:
What about brace height guys??
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Here's something that I've noticed. It seems that all the trick shot guy's,(B. Ferguson,Ron LaClair, John Shulz, Howard Hill)all shoot longbows. Another thing is that Howard Hill said in his book,(Hunting the Hard Way) that he considered the longbow more forgiving in "hunting situations", especially when proper form can't be attained,shooting quickly, or not being able to cant the bow exactly the way you would target shooting, where things are more controled.
John Sh
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IMHO the bow you like the most will probably be the one you shoot the best.Regardless of how forgiving or not the bow is,there is probably enough room just on the mental side to make up the difference.
In all the 3D shoots I've seen,the recurve class had overall higher scores.I shoot recurve and had to twist in plenty of odd angles at the last shoot.I'm sure there are exceptions, especially at smaller matches where there isn't a large sampling in all classes.
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bihunter, we have to add Stacy Groscup (Zipper recurve) to the recurve trick-shooters...as we should Bob Markworth (Bear recurves) from the 60's. There is an exception to every rule. In my experience, I don't think one as an advantage over the other...it's an individual thing once again. Howard Hill's time was one of mostly longbows, with the full recurve not being introduced until the early 50's, and then they had longbow style handles. Given time, Ron, Byron, et al, could do the same with a recurve.
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Don: Good example re limb sensitivity. The reason, of course, is that longbow limbs tend to be stacked -- thick from back to belly and not wide, while recurve limbs are just the opposite, thin in their thickness dimension and quite wide. Much easier to twist one than the other out of alignment.
Tim: You probably don't notice the longbow as being more forgiving because you probably shoot either well. I, too, am of the opinion that recurves will outshoot longbows if the person doing the shooting has good form, etc. The longbow is a little more forgiving for those who don't. I shot recurves for nearly 20 years, but have been shooting longbows almost exclusively for the past 20 years. Used to do a lot of tournament shooting and generally posted higher scores, not much higher, but a little higher, with the recurve than the longbow. Of course, at this point, that could be a function of my age rather than any differences in bow design.
On the other hand, I seem to be able to put the longbow into action more quickly, and I like the reduced physical weight for carrying. :)
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"I use the straight-end longbow for the simple reason that it requires a less exacting hold and loose to get necessary accuracy while hunting, where quick shots must be made from unconventional positions-standing, kneeling or sitting-not the traditional target archer's pose. Also, the longbow throws a heavy arrow much better than any recurve designed, which is necessary for sufficient big game penetration. The longbow is fast, smooth, sturdy and dependable, built to give many years of trouble-free service." - Howard Hill
I'm of the opinion that those words are as valid today as then. I agree completely when kept in context of hunting, hunting shots, and hunting accuracy. Many target archers will quickly point out tournament scores and rankings to dispute this logic. I'm of the opinion that such comparison misses the point entirely.
One does not need pinpoint accuracy while using strinct target archer form when hunting game afoot. It would be great to have, but it is more important to have greater flexibility and a range of tolerance in position and form while maintaining killing accuracy. It is of far greater importance to maintain this killing accuracy from unconventional field positons than to maintain pinpoint precision from your best position.
All of the above does require that you have proficiency in your marksmanship. You need the ability to properly execute killing shots. But it doesn't require that you maintain silver dollar tournament groups.
Where I find the joy in the longbow is indeed when hunting game afoot. The very characteristics that hamper the longbow in tournament scores are the very characteristics that make it shine when hunting game afoot. Its light weight and pointability marries the bow to the hunter like no other. Combined with the proper draw techniques, the longbow shows outstanding accuracy on small moving game that is hard to match with the heavier recurve. Despite its longer length, with the longbow shooting an arrow close to the hand it is very accurate on game when working the bow from extreme angles both forward and reverse to include everything between.
For me, when it comes to having a hell for stout bow that is easy to manage, light to carry, casts heavy arrows well, has a broad range of acceptable accuracy (forginveness) for when I'm cold, tired, and/or shooting from an odd position, keeps the arrow close to my hand so I can quickly swing on moving targets, aerials and such, ....for all of this I find the longbow to be my choice.
later,
Daddy Bear
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Well then it's unanimous 8^).
Daddy Bear, I wouldn't take exception to what you stated as I like hunting with longbows as well...even some that aren't actually longbows.
Still, it depends on the individual and the bow and I'm sure Fred Bear and Ben Pearson would enjoy discussing their reasons for choosing the recurve bow.
I've found no ill-effects to using a good recurve when the necessity arose for a quick and agile weapon. I see little difference in cast either, between my 55 Kodiak and my 57 pound longbow. They will both send heavy wooden arrows about the same distance with neither having the advantage all the time. And, the Kodiak is actually lighter in mass weight than the longbow.
The longbow is normally much sturdier for those who wish to use it as a wading staff or defensive weapon (8^)). I wouldn't want to choose between the two. Isn't it great we have such issues to talk about?
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May I suggest that YOU try several differnt bows to see what is better for YOU.
I hear LB's are harder to shoot well and I hear they are more forgiving too..doesn't that seem contradictory :confused: I personally did not loose accuracy going from a recurve to a LB and also didn't notice any added forgivness either,not saying it wasn't there just for ME I did not notice it.I like the feel of the newer RD LB's over the classic rattle your teeth D shaped bows but again feel is subjective to the user.
If LBs were more accurate they'd be shot in the olympics lets face it there not more accurate all else being equal as for more forgiving mmmmmmmmmmmm sorry all I can say for sure is I like them myself while others prefer their curve's
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Chose whatever bow you want to shoot, and go practice till you hit what you look at. Problem solved! :knothead: :thumbsup:
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It's been years but if I remember correctly, Howard Hill also stated that you could grab the string on a longbow and twist it, the longbow would not unstring itself. A recurve would come unstrung.
All the legends chose the bow they could shoot the best and history was made.
As already stated each to his own.
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All I know..is this....
I started my traditional journey with recurves...and almost gave it up...UNTIL....my eye was caught one day by a Martin Savannah.
I got it for my birthday in 2006...and have never looked back. Liked the longbow so much...I bought a Widow PLII.
FOR ME...(note the emphasis...ME).....I shoot longbows better. They kept me on the traditional straight and narrow.
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Originally posted by Daddy Bear:
"I use the straight-end longbow for the simple reason that it requires a less exacting hold and loose to get necessary accuracy while hunting, where quick shots must be made from unconventional positions-standing, kneeling or sitting-not the traditional target archer's pose. Also, the longbow throws a heavy arrow much better than any recurve designed, which is necessary for sufficient big game penetration. The longbow is fast, smooth, sturdy and dependable, built to give many years of trouble-free service." - Howard Hill
I'm of the opinion that those words are as valid today as then. I agree completely when kept in context of hunting, hunting shots, and hunting accuracy. Many target archers will quickly point out tournament scores and rankings to dispute this logic. I'm of the opinion that such comparison misses the point entirely.
One does not need pinpoint accuracy while using strinct target archer form when hunting game afoot. It would be great to have, but it is more important to have greater flexibility and a range of tolerance in position and form while maintaining killing accuracy. It is of far greater importance to maintain this killing accuracy from unconventional field positons than to maintain pinpoint precision from your best position.
All of the above does require that you have proficiency in your marksmanship. You need the ability to properly execute killing shots. But it doesn't require that you maintain silver dollar tournament groups.
Where I find the joy in the longbow is indeed when hunting game afoot. The very characteristics that hamper the longbow in tournament scores are the very characteristics that make it shine when hunting game afoot. Its light weight and pointability marries the bow to the hunter like no other. Combined with the proper draw techniques, the longbow shows outstanding accuracy on small moving game that is hard to match with the heavier recurve. Despite its longer length, with the longbow shooting an arrow close to the hand it is very accurate on game when working the bow from extreme angles both forward and reverse to include everything between.
For me, when it comes to having a hell for stout bow that is easy to manage, light to carry, casts heavy arrows well, has a broad range of acceptable accuracy (forginveness) for when I'm cold, tired, and/or shooting from an odd position, keeps the arrow close to my hand so I can quickly swing on moving targets, aerials and such, ....for all of this I find the longbow to be my choice.
later,
Daddy Bear
Well said!! :thumbsup:
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Jerry - I'm little bit of a form nut and I do believe the heavier mass weight of the recurve allows me to settle in more comfortably and retain that position after the shot. I do prefer the cleaner sight picture of a longbow which like you I can bring up on target quicker.
Nobody has gotten into grips yet? Longbow versus recurve anyone....locator, straight, recurve...
I seem much more consistent with a recurve grip although I prefer a locator. The madness continues. :bigsmyl:
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Daddy Bear,
I certainly shouldn't argue with Mr. Hill, but I'm pretty sure that no objective evidence supports the claim that longbows throw heavier arrows better than longbows. I shoot my longbow better than my recurve, but it has alot of mass weight in the riser with a bow-bolt and dymondwood. I don't know that I agree with longbows being better suited to fast shooting with a less exacting grip. It seems the extra mass weight of the riser would make up for this. Just my opinion. Oh well, had to stir the pot.
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Should read "longbows throw heavier arrows better than recurves".
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Honestly I think it doesn't matter. I can shoot both well. I have owned both, but not both at the same time. I think that it would be difficult to shoot both well going back and forth. I shot recurves very well and wanted to try a longbow,sold the 'curve and although there was a learning curve I can shoot it as well as a recurve. As far as forgiveness goes I honestly think there is no difference in forgiveness. A good shot is still a good shot and a bad one is still a bad one with either bow.
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I was just reading the Cloverdale Nationals webpage looking at the scores posted. Vvveeeery interesting who came out with the highest score.
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Don't make your bow mad and you won't have to worry about it forgiving you :knothead:
David
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Originally posted by swampbuck:
I hear LB's are harder to shoot well and I hear they are more forgiving too..doesn't that seem contradictory :confused:
I dont think what you heard is what was said.
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I feel much the same as Mr. Gray.
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A longbow will consume you.Its a love hate relationship.
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There's so much overlap these days in the way limbs are designed, the "forgivability" difference may not be as obvious as in the past. The most noticeable difference is between a Hill-style straight-and-narrow longbow and a wide-and-thin limbed recurve, but it only shows up when you really need it!
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Dartwick,if ya look around not just on this thread or even this site you'll see both sides just as I said.Sometimes the arguements or disagreemnts are quite old this is just one of those.
I personally like LB's better and maybe??I even shoot them better but that still doesn't change the facts that all else being equal recurves are more accurate.
Please somebody show me an olympic contender doing so with a LB.....Don't get me wrong I really really like LB's but my like's or dislike's doesn't change the facts.
We should shot what we want for our own personal satisfaction,if thats a self bow great if its a full blown fita rig well thats great too.It amazes me more and more everyday even in a forum that insists on .....oh never mind have a great day guys/gals
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BOY, I should have done a poll on this one! :biglaugh:
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Olympic shooters use Recurves, Butt all of the great shots and trick shooters used longbows...
Howard Hill and Byron Feruguson....So which bow is more Accurate....
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"..So which bow is more Accurate...."
:thumbsup:
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And here I thought it was a simple question :bigsmyl: :biglaugh:
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Swampbuck. Yes looking around the internet we could find nearly all opinions on most anything.
But take that as whole as evidence that a position can not be reached in not valid. And it was insulting to the people who gave specific reasons for their opinions.
I think we choose to post here to be part a discourse. There has been a consensous opinion here that long bows are more forgiving or inconsistent form but that recurves offer higher performance. However some people disagreed or questioned this.
If you want to be part of discourse thats great - if youi want to simply disagree because it how you feel fine.
But to disagee with a point that no one made in this thread is just silly.
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Sorry if that was taken the wrong way. :p
If a fella ask's which is easier or harder to shoot well I wonder what the overwhelming responce would be ???
After your quoted section I explained "personal" and "subjective to feel" but I guess that part was missed in any event I hope folks get out and try both for themselve's I myself after shooting both could tell no differance I shoot what I like and encourage others to shoot what they like,nothin silly bout that just common curtousy
Good luck all :archer:
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For me it is like this;
There is no question that my issued M40 rifle was far more stable and exceedingly more accurate than my M70 featherweight hunting rifle. For that matter, My issued M-14 used for service rifle competition was far more stable and exceedingly more accurate than my M70 featherweight. There is no way one would fair well using my M70 featherweight in any form of service, match, or sniper competition.
But, the same characteristics that hamper my featherweight in such competitions, make it shine as a mountain hunting rifle. It will never shoot the tiny groups of the M-40 or clean the course with lots of Xs like the M-14, but it will shoot killing shot accurate groups from any sort of field position while being light to carry and quick to point. A heavier rifle will be more stable and be superior for pinpoint accuracy but the featherweight will run rings around it shooting acceptable accuracy from field positions at normal hunting distances.
Comparing the standard longbow to the recurve may not be to the same extreme, but it's along the same line of thought. Hunting recurves tend to have shorter limbs whereas true longbows tend to have longer limbs. From my experience, the longer limbs tend to do a better job at casting arrows on the heavier end of the scale. Using a traditional heel down broke wrist hold on the longbow has always proved to be a very forgiving grip for me when hunting while tired and cold. Though using a pistol grip with a straight wrist gives me greater repeatibility on target, it becomes touchy when I'm tired and cold. I do find the shorter, faster recurve limbs to be a plus on added performance. But I also find that I'll pay for this added performance by having a touchy bow when my draw is a bit off, or the bow is held at an odd angle, or my release is not clean. I'll also see accuracy suffer from the longbow under such poor shooting conditions, but with the heel down grip, longer limbs, and heavier arrow, the accuracy doesn't degrade outside of the kill zone.
Howard Hill may not be for everyone and he may have had the help of Hollywood to embelish some of his accomplishments. But, I'm the opinion that the man was one heck of a great stickbow hunter who had a good grasp of things when it comes to longbows. I agree with much of that, including his words I quoted in my earlier post. For some or many this may not apply, but for those who have found this to be true, for them (including me) it is as true as true can get.
later,
Daddy Bear
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I'm a good shot with a recurve. By that I mean I'll average 75% on a 3D course. I've been playing with longbows all year long and it's all I can do to break 50%.
The experiment is over and I'll be huntin with my trusty BW SA III again this year.
Keep an eye peeled on the classifieds. There's apt to be a few good deals on some 50# @ 29" longbows before long.
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You said it Otto!!! I love my BW SAIII but I wanted to play around with a longbow so I bought a mint 55 lb. Herb Meland Pronghorn from the classifieds several months ago. It is a superb bow, dead in the hand, sweet to shoot and truly mint. I love it...BUT...it is not my SA III. I can't get the low wrist thing down for a longbow, so the Pronghorn, hard/soft case, sock and arrows will be going to Denton with me this weekend for the blanket sale. I tip my hat to you Otto...we are on the same page!
It takes a great General to realize and admit he has been defeated! My experiment is over as well!
Cottonwood
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When longbow scores begin regularly beating those of recurves, then I will believe they are more forgiving. I mean what most consider to be "real" (hill style) LB's.
I am shooting Morrison ILF longbow limbs on a DAS riser right now - don't consider that combo a true lb, but it is a great combo.
Steve
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Speed is not a determining factor in my bow preference since I sold the wheels. I've shot and owned bunches of recurves and longbows over the last couple of years. I shot them all well. For me a light weight, stable, and accurate weapon will be by my side. I prefer a very heavy shaft as well. I have settled on the Hill style straight profile longbows. They are more consistent for me from day to day than any other bow has been. First shot hunting accuracy impresses me most. Don't those olympic recurve shooters shoot light weight recurves that are very long? How many of you shoot recurves because they are 66" long and stable because of it?
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I have a 66 inch longbow coming, will that be more accurate as my 54 inch recurve since it is longer?
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LOL frass thats kinda funny and here I was startin to think it was me making wave's hahahahahahaha
Seems Ron L blew that theory away with his Shrew's but thats a whole nuther subject
IMO if an archer truely believe's that bow X is more forgiving for them than bow Y than that is a true statement for that archer.Believing in ones self counts alot
Why is that if any bow is straped into a shooting machine they all shoot bullet holes without the human element yet if you were to do a search of actual score's and events where the human element was put back in recurves out perform LB's time and time again?
More forgiving???
Yea for some they are , Daddy bear did a wonderful job explaining why for him well said by the way,but most of us will never be the shot Byron is or Howard was and I don't quite get how a LB can be more forgiving other than subjective feel when the human element can be removed or added than measured.
We need to shoot what we believe in reguardless of what the limb tips look like
Good luck with that 66incher I was plesently surprised at how well my 64"LB carried thru the brush compared to my 62" recurve.Much less snagging who woulda thunk
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There are right and wrong answers. Even if we dont know them.
Everything isnt subjective although sometimes we dont know things and sometimes we cant prove what we suspect.
The concept of "forgiveness" is about a bow hitting with in a tight range despite an inconsistent hold or release.
Now it is possible that different bows are more or less forgiving to different errors - it may not be correct to simply say 1 type of bow is most forgiving.
But Im a bit weary of you repeatedly acting like this is some ponderous mystery or perhaps all in peoples heads. And people are being silly for discussing it.
If you simply believe we are wrong say so - instead of being dismissive. So far you have given us NOTHING with respect to the fogiveness topic.
Just because either you dont care or you cant get your head atround it(I have no idea which) doesnt mean its not worth other people trying to figure out or understand.
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I am fairly confused on the matter now, especially after reading all of the comments in this forum.
I have been shooting a Dan Quillian longbow now for the last 4 years and have fell in love with traditional archery. I love to shoot the bow and go on occasional black tail deer hunts.
Since I seem to be hooked on the sport, I have been thinking of upgrading and buying a Black Widow. Prior to this forum, I had believed that a recurve was easier to handle and more forgiving than a LB. That is why I was focusing my attention on buying a BW PTF one piece recurve.
Many of the people in this forum discuss the difficulties of going from a recurve to a longbow. What about the reverse? Does anyone have insight on what to expect going from a longbow to a recurve?
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There are 3 general differences between recurves and long bows that make the recurve genrally easier to shoot - its a messy issue because these arent traits actually inherent to the bow types.
1 Recurves are often closer to center shot than long bows. The closer to center shot the less picky the bow will as to shafts. Most shooters bows are not tuned as well as they could be.
2 Recurves risers are often heavier than long bows risers. Weight at the handle makes a bow more stable or have less shock.
3 Recurves usually have higher FPS than long bows. Faster arrows means less drop at a given range.
Those are the simple points that almost all of us agree on. And as you can see its more an issue of features common to recurves than inherent to recurves.
And they can explain why the average guy will have better luck with a recurve than a long bow. But there are more nuanced aspects of bow comparisions that result in more questions.
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Guess it's time to bow out :notworthy:
Archery is 10% mechanics and 90% mental if somebody can give me an answer as to why when the human factor is removed there is little if any differance in accuracy and when it's put back in there is a clear winner please PM me.
I luv my LB's by the way and if it's all in my head I guess I've covered 90% funny how we all see respect from a differnt light sadly it even has to be a rule
Have a good one fella's
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Im out of this one to, what started out as a simple question....turned into this :confused:
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Just to put my 2-bits in--- I have a pair of Samick bows that I hunt with. One is a 56" Equis recurve and the other is a 62" Verna longbow. They are almost identical in the shape of the handles, draw weights, sight windows and shelves (both are close to center shot). I shoot the same arrows with both and with heavy arrows(about 700 grains) they cast very similarly.
The longbow is noticably less sensitive to a bad release or inconcistant grip than the recurve but in my opinion the practical difference is not real significant.
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Fellas numbers don't lie... At the bow shoots I go to the winning recurve score is usually atleast 20-30 points higher then the winning longbow scores and that's on a 300 point total score card... Heavier risers and faster arrows = better scores.
That being said... I'm a die hard longbowman. I love the looks, feel, and even the sound of my longbows... But, The best shooting( for scores)for me was a big old Black Widow PSA... I could shot pretty good tight groups with it.... But Dang was it heivey to carry around for hours and never could get it silenced...
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1 Recurves are often closer to center shot than long bows. The closer to center shot the less picky the bow will as to shafts. Most shooters bows are not tuned as well as they could be.
2 Recurves risers are often heavier than long bows risers. Weight at the handle makes a bow more stable or have less shock.
3 Recurves usually have higher FPS than long bows. Faster arrows means less drop at a given range.
Those are the simple points that almost all of us agree on. And as you can see its more an issue of features common to recurves than inherent to recurves.
We agree because they can be subjectively measured and compared.
How do you measure "more forgiving"?
Only way I can see is by sucess such as comparative scoring in a shoot. Those results do not bear out the lb more forgiving theory.
I'm with SB - 90% mental for most of us. Most forgiving is what you have confidence in.
Steve
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Tournament scoring with a heavy riser recurve and light target arrows has absolutely no bearing on backpack hunting in the mountains with a longbow and heavy arrows when you are on the 5th day and you are cold, wet, and tired, and you need to place a killing shot on a wary game animal 20 yards away. You sure will understand the meaning of forgiving then. That pinpoint precision heavy bow with its ultra light arrow which needs to be shot in a just so fashion will sudenly become a finiky monster. You'll feel like you're picking up BBs while wearing boxing gloves.
That same wonderfully stable bow which is so easy for shooting the center out of a stationary target will suddenly become an absolute lead sled slug when swinging on flushed birds. All of that stability will become a truck axle and logging chain when it comes time to work the bow. For that matter, If we took a stationary target mat and shrunk it down to around a foot in diameter and then had the target move in random directions; I'd be willing to bet that the majority of the top 300 shooters would fail abysmally, whereas the top longbow hunters would fare well. Now switch the mat out for a chunk of coal randomly tossed into the air at 12-15yards to simulate a flushed bird. How well do you think the top 300shooters would fair compared to the top longbow hunters?
There is a world of difference between ease of learning in general with a recurve, ease of tournament marksmanship with recurves, and fine handling characteristics in a hunting longbow that is used not only for big game, but also for small game, birds, and such.
Now, don't get your feathers ruffled. It all goes back to my earlier post which in essence says, if the shoe fits. Clearly Fred Bear, Glenn St. Charles, etc, did well with a hunting recurve. But for the same token, Howard Hill, Byron Ferguson, etc, did well with a longbow. The guys who trick shoot and/or hunt with the longbow will take maximum advantage of certain traits in the longbow making it a positive. Whereas the target guys and recurve hunters will look at these same longbow traits as being a negative. Same goes in reverse, so my positives in what I get from the longbow may very well be your negatives in what you get from the same longbow.
That's my story and I'll stick to it.
later,
Daddy Bear
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Maybe longbows are more forgiving. I don't know. What I am fairly certain of is that regardless of how convinced people seem to be, no real evidence has been shown one way or the other. It would be very difficult to prove one way or the other. How do you duplicate a poor release in a consistant manner? As far as blanket statements comparing how great recurve shooters are compared to longbow shooters and vice versa in different situations, the comparisons are flawed. How many people shoot the recurve compared to the longbow. That is a bias. You would need to have the same exact people dedicate the same amount of time and effort with both the longbow and the recurve and then duplicate the poor releases and then have an objective method of measuring the result. Not going to happen anytime soon with a large enough test group. Any claims that one or the other is better is nothing more than speculation at this point. Doesn't mean there isn't a correct answer to the question. It just means that whether you are absolutely convinced one way or the other, you may be wrong.
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I can't make blanket statements to "how it is"....only how it is for ME:
Recurves, by thier design (weight, grip, etc.) cause me to "settle in" and shoot in a more disciplined style. If I had to make a shot at 40 yards, I would shoot a recurve with a heavy riser. I am not comfortable shooting a recurve in a quick, odd angled, awkward manner.
With longbows, my release time speeds up, I pay almost zero attention to the angle of the limbs... horizontal, vertical, it doesn't matter to me. While I am LESS likely to hit a ping pong ball at 40 yards with a longbow, I am MORE likely to put it on a deer's rib cage at 8 yards, REAL quick and smooth.
I think Howard Hill said something along the lines of deciding whether one wants to be a hunter or target archer, you can't do both well. I think my description above centers around that.
All that said, I enjoy both. My shooting style does change from one to the other. I'm not sure if my description makes a longbow more forgiving for me, but certainly different.
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Maybe a better word than "forgiving" is "stable". A longbow tends to be more stable under difficult shooting conditions, and lets you hit closer to the target. A recurve is a little more sensitive to variables. That's what my personal experience has been.
Better archers than I have made the "forgiveness" analogy, people like Hill and Quillian and Ferguson- added to my personal experience, that's good enough for me.
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frassetor, here's a couple of Trad Gang members that you could PM to get the definitive poop on your question:
Rod Jenkins (SHOOT08S) is a former IBO World Champion; I also know that he owns an OL Adcock two-piece longbow. I don't know what he shot in competition. But, you could get his take on why he shoots what he shoots.
John Havard (John Havard)one of the owners of A&H Archery. Along with OL Adcock, they have compiled TONS of data on how and why a bow does what it does...there has to be a reason that they chose primarily to go with a longbow design (the Adcock Cross Section is easier to design in to a "staight" limb) but I know that A&H is currently working on designing a recurve limb as well...
It would be great if you could PM these guys and get them to post their thoughts here.... :bigsmyl:
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Thanks fatman :thumbsup: