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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Highlandwarrior on July 28, 2008, 08:05:00 PM
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I'm hoping to get in touch with Dr. Ashby on this. I remember reading that he hadn't found any wood arrows that came close to his "Forgewoods" that were I believe around 19%. A buddy and I came up with a long footed tapered doug fir arrow that is slightly over 20% with griz 190's. It has a kingwood foot that is half again as long as the usual. Kingwood is extremely heavy and as strong as any wood you're likely to find. They fly great and combine almost all of Dr. Ashby's recommendations for max penetration. Just thought you guys might be interested, and hope to hear what the doc thinks.
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I visited Bill Sweetland to learn about his process, in the early '90's. We were both wood tech guys, so we communicated well. His boards were tapered on one end before being compressed at high heat and pressure, so the point end came out heavier, and tough enough to be shot without a point. He was a fine gentleman to meet and discuss archery with.
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Do you have any pics Albert? Those sound like great shafts, with a lot of weight.
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Here is a hunting tapered and footed arrow Ted Fry did-a double long footing of Osage-does not show up very well-but nonetheless there is 6 inches of heavy wood up front footed to a 85# ACME shaft.
(http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/bjornweb/DSCN0412.jpg)
With a 160 grain Grizzly the total weight is 670 and I think the FOC came in around 16; with those little feathers and the footing it flies extremely well from my 50# ACS.
That will be my hunting set up this fall for hogs and whatever else I get lucky enough to hunt.
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Bjorn, how much does the footing effect the arrow spine compared to just shooting a plain ACME shaft?
Highlandwarrior, Ted Fry has worked out footed combinations with wood arrows to get high FOC to shoot out of his selfbows. He even developed a smaller Raptor fletch to work with this combination. This is something I think is worthy as I prefer wood shafts, but I also prefer having a high FOC%. It does appear to take a bit more effort when working with wood compared to carbon, but it very well may be worth the effort for certain big game arrows. I think I read somwhere that there is an additional option to reach this now with a new metal foot called a "Woody".
later,
Daddy Bear
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Daddy Bear: With a regular length footing I shoot a 75# shaft, now with this longer footing I use an 85# shaft-it bareshafts very straight and the
paradox recovery is surprisingly quick.
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If you are looking for more FOC and penetration, check out www.woodyweights.com (http://www.woodyweights.com) Maybe not as nice looking as footed shafts, but a quick way to obtain what you want.
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It is a 6" long foot with 5" shield cut feathers. It is a 65# spine being shot from a 50# bow. With 190gr. point arrow weight is 670gr. They are heavy, strong and purty! Foc comes out to like 20.37% with the big feathers!! I'm not sure how to get the pic from photobucket to here so this is the link:
http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m332/highlandwarrior11/footedarrow001.jpg
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Put a broadhead on it and I'll take a dozen. That is a fine looking hunting arrow. I currently have a tapered-footed carbon that is near identical with just a bit more %FOC. My next project is along the same lines as you guys are talking by coming up with a durable footed wood combination that comes close to the same specs. I do like the wood.
Daddy Bear
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Albert, that sounds like a great setup for a wood. I think you'll find it highly effective on game. Let us know how they perform when you nail a critter!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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The plan is to try for a black bear in a month. I'll try to do my part and we'll see what happens
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Good Job on the shafts!! They are beautiful. I might have to learn to build some footed shafts.
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Albert, after you've 'kilt that bar' try a few heavy bone shoulder shots from far enough back to be sure the arrow is out of paradox and tell us the results. My Forgewoods were just over 19%, but weighed close to 850 grains (and from pretty hefty bows). I never had one stopped by EITHER shoulder of a black bear. Even the shoulders of a big brown bear didn't stop them. I'm anxious to hear your results!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
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Daddy Bear: I think the only way to go is the king wood for a footing. You're not going to find much else thats stronger or heavier and still be able to work it. It's heavy enough to foot a tapered hickory shaft and still give good Foc. If you use sitka spruce and a small fletch you could bump FOC up to almost 22%, although from my experience the sitka is not good in the strength cat. I've broken many while trying to straighten them
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Has anyone tried parallel shafting running it through a compression block (like 3-Rivers sells) and then a 10 or 12” taper?
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No, but it should only make it better. You would have a denser, and I assume somewhat stronger softwood shaft. Start with a big shaft 23/64 and compress it to 11/32 then taper to 5/16. Put a long 12" taper and foot it with that kingwood and it would probably one nasty hunting arrow. I don't know if you can get a compression block to do 23/64 though?
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Kingwood? I have been to a local hardwood store and have been experimenting with some diff hardwoods. I have not seen kingwood, is there a different name? Where have you been finding it. Footing for more FOC is to be my winter project after hunting season this year.
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Well, you're not going to like this, but you won't find it in a local hardwood store and probably not even a wood workers specialty store. The local store might be able to find you some, but if you have a store within 50 miles that specializes in exotic hardwoods it would be worth going otherwise you'll have to get it online. The problem with that is that you don't actually get to see the wood and will have to specify that you need a very straight grain.
As far as I know other than the latin name it is only known as kingwood. It is in the same family as rosewood, but do not let anyone tell you they are the same. Rosewood is not nearly as strong and nowhere near as heavy.
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Thanks next time I am at Sears and Trostle in Ft. Collins I will ask them about kingwood. I have seen rosewood there if I remember correct. They carry some exotics maybe they can find me some.
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Kingwood, purpleheart, wenge and osage all weigh about the same. Osage is readily available and holds glue better than the others.
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Actually kingwood is a fair amount heavier than all of them, and somewhat stronger than most. I can't remember the name of the site I found, but it listed the weights of most exotic woods, and of the stuff available in the u.s. nothing was close to kingwood. If you use a good epoxy with kingwood the shaft will break under stress, but the kingwood will not separate.
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Another possible option for kingwood might be Ron Laclair of shrew bows. He uses it for some of his bow risers and might be able to get you in touch with a knowledgable supplier, and I would have to guess be willing to praise the quality of this wood.
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Do you think footing some ACME 70#-75# shafts for a 55#@28" Blacktail cut to center will make them too weak? What kind of head weight do you think I can use?
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How much weight does it add up front with a 6" footing?
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I understand Wenge chips pretty easy when sawing it. Any comments on using this for footing? I've got a bow on order that will be footed with Wenge and am thinking about using it on some shafts...?
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I think you will be fine with that spine. I'm shooting 65# dour fir from a 50# bow. I'd go with as heavy a head as you feel comfortable using because if anything you may actually be a bit stiff. The long footing with kingwood will add a lot of weight. the fir shafts bare were about 375-400gr. witha 190 head my shafts are 670gr. I had an arrow footed with wenge and the footing snapped when i shot it into a red pine board testing it. Needless to say it was not used for another footing.
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I have bareshaft tuned these shafts with 160gr. tips. I don't think they will handle the added weight.
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I guess all you can do it foot one and put the 160gr. and see what happens. If it doesn't work use a lighter head or get a higher spine shaft. In any case footing it is the way to go. It will out perform any solid wood shaft except maybe forgewoods, and if you can taper the nock end you'll be amazed at how they fly.
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Snag, the Wenge on my footings was so dark that the grain was almost not visible. I agree that it could be too brittle in a double long footing.
I also did some shafts in Purple Heart, and that's pretty; but too red for what you want, and it does not glue well for points.
What ever heavy wood you foot with you will need stiffer shafting. 5# for a regular foot and 10# for the longer one. I'd add even more # for Kingwood.
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Bjorn, I think I have some heavier shafts in the 80#-85# range. I'll have to check tonight. I might just stick with the 6" footing with the Wenge.
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Compressing, footing and tapering makes for a nice heavy cedar arrow, but it doesn't increase the FOC as much as one would think. For example, my footed,compressed and tapered cedar shafts with a 160 grain STOS yield about 14% FOC. A heavier head might get you to 15% or a little past. Mine are spined 75-80# and weigh about 680 grains, plus or minus 5.
Got my shafts from Cedarsmith. He starts with 23/64 shafts and compresses them to 11/32 using some sort of compression block. He then grinds a 9-inch or so taper to 5/16 and footed mine with wenge.
I suppose a heavier footing woods might also add 1% or so to the FOC, but that would be about it unless you extend the length of the footing like Bjorn had done.
The metal ferule and extra heavy broadhead (200 grains or more) hold promise for really jacking up the FOC of wood shafts. I've noted on here before that I've also done it by drilling a 3/16 hole in the point end of my 11/32 shafts and inserting about 3 inches of steel rod before point tapering and adding the broadhead. That, and a 160 grain head gets my 11/32 tapered cedars to just about 20% FOC.
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I just bought some Woody Weights that weighed 125 grains. They increased my FOC from 14% to 20%. The arrows fly great. They went from 600 grains to 720 grains. I use 160 grain broadheads.The Woody Weights didn't seem to affect the spine at all. I can't wait to shhot something with them.
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Wyben just so we understand..........are you saying you added 120 grains up front without affecting spine or arrow flight? Wow I gotta' get some!
Orion when you added the metal rod did the weight affect spine or arrow flight?
In my case I moved up 10# in spine to accommodate the extra long hardwood footing and maintain good bareshaft flight.
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I cut about 3/4 of an inch off the shaft so my arrows are the same length as before the Woody Weight. I couldn't ask for a better flying arrow.
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I saw the woody weights at ETAR and were impressed. Talk about an easy way to add weight up front. The owner said he is even going to add a test kit in the future with all six weights.
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Bjorn: Adding the internal footings did not change the static spine. It stayed at 75-80#. It may have decreased the dynamic spine, but I didn't notice it in arrow flight. Of course, I overspine to begin with. Those shafts shot very well before and after internal footing in my 62# Hill and 58# Robertson.
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Anyone know where where to get these woody weights? I just got my 80# hungarian and my buddy doesn't have time to do up another set of kingwoods and I need something in a high spine quick but would still like some decent FOC so I thought I'd give these a try.