Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: SirRobin77 on August 11, 2008, 07:43:00 PM
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Hey guys ive noticed that traditional shooters tend to use a real heavy arrow compared to compound bow guys.Why is that?
Like ive seen guys shooting a 50# recurve use a 500 grain arrow but guys with a 60# compound they are useing 350 grain arrow. Why?
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10 grs per pound is a good starting formula for trad bows. The bows we shoot are slower and we need more kinetic energy for better penetration.
Others will join in to explain it better than I can.
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A heavier arrow will out penerate a light arrow. With a compound they have high speed so a light arrow will work (still not best).
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There are several reasons for this. First off, we are not shooting superfast bows. We penetrate game through the weight of our arrows, not the speed. Sorta like a .45 ACP compared to a 9mm, if you follow firearms.
Many bowyers specify that their warranties are void if you shoot less than so-many grains per pound as well. The lighter arrows fly off the shelf without absorbing all the energy that the bow's limbs can give them. The energy has to go somewhere, and the limbs pay the price.
You can get a lot of insight into arrow weight, penetration, and broadhead design by reading Dr. Ashby's reports onsite here.
Killdeer :campfire:
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More then a few have no problems hunting with 8gr/lb out of 50# plus bows for North American game.
Great trajectory when shooting at unknown (most hunting) distances.
Steve
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Its the old Kenetic Energy (KE) versus Momentum (MO) story. KE is squared by speed. That is... a lot of speed means high KE. However, KE gives up real quick when it connects with flesh and bone. Mr MO keeps right on trucking.
A heavy arrow with a graceful arc is a thing of beauty and not only penetrates like a spear instead of a soda straw, but is quiet and transfers more of the bow energy.
Most folks with trad gear end up with 9-13 grains per pound of draw weight for hunting arrows.
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I believe it has been determined that 10gpp to be the weight that a traditional bow best transfers its energy. You can shoot a heavier arrow or lighter arrow and get the job done depending on the game but you will not get as much efficiency from your bow
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what everyone else said. The only thing I will add is ... My bows love heavy arrows
Plus it makes your bow way quieter
;
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Traditional shooters have historically used arrows of 9 to 10 grains per pound of bow weight. As mentioned above, it lends to a very efficient and quiet arrow delivered effectively.
Sometimes watch how little penetration those fellers get with their high-speed and mechanical heads. Most times they do not get pass through shots even on thin skinned whitetails. Traditional shooters commonly shoot through whitetails and bigger critters with heavier but slower arrows.
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Steve:
I agree with you, that more than a few hunt with 8 grs/#, however when they hit something a great deal of them are not too happy, you only need to watch a few of the wackem and stackem shows on TV and see very poor penetration to understand what I'm talking about. Arrow ballistics are not much different than bullet ballistics (In how they work). both trad guys and compounders tout how fast their equipment is through a chronograph, and fail too take into account that a heavier arrow will retain its velocity longer than a light one. I did some tests several years ago using a 57# recurve and a shooting maching and two different arrows properly spined for the bow. I shot each through two chrono's 10 times then reversed the chrono's and repeated the test. the arrow weights were 450 grains and 620 grains. the 450 grain arrow lost 14% of its velocity in 16 yards and the 620 grain lost 7% of its velocity in the same distance.
I don't have the figures in front of me, but I believe at 23 or 24 yards the velocity was so close to each other its not worth mentioning, and there's 170 grains difference. Another advantage to arrow weight is it quiets a bow down.
I do however believe there is a point where too much arrow weight you loose efficiency.
Bob
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I will be using a 45# bow recurve so i need a 450 grn arrow?
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You will increase penetration with a heavier arrow after 10 and will also increase speed below 10 but at a greater trade off penetration over trajectory. Good post aromakr
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Get some 2016's. 150 grain magnus stingers and you will be good to go
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aromkr - I guess I should have added the word successfully. I thought by saying having no problems made that clear.
Successfully/no problems means pass thru's and recovery's.
%'s mean little in tthe comparisons you offered - JMO. Actual numbers would be much more meaninful.
Also the energy left with the lighter arrow at 25 yds is still more then marginal to ensure a broadhead buried in the dirt.
Not saying heavy doesn't work - just saying 8gr/lb ain't light and works too.
Steve
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I shoot around 450 grain arrow out of my mid 50s and it works great. Deer, bear, buffalo, dont seem to like them though and im sure elk will feel the same here in a few weeks.
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SirRobin, all my bows draw between 43-49 lbs at 28". I shoot axis 500's. Having said that, not all my arrows are the same length for each bow, and neither are my point weights.
What you NEED to do is tune your arrows to the bow, so you are getting perfect flight AND have a bow that is reasonably quiet with little shock and vibration. Then go ahead and weigh your arrows, odds are good you're going to find that they weigh between 8-11 grains per lb of draw.
My primary concern is to have an arrow that flies perfect and let the weight fall where it may. Which for me always seems to end up between 8.5 and 11 grains per lb.
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Kinda agree with SteveB here. I hunt mostly small whitetails in texas. Once I have met a weight I feel meets the penetration requirements I would rather have gains in trajectory over penetration. If a 450 gr arrow (what I set as a min weight)is deadly out of a 45#, it will be even more deadly out of a 55# bow...and alot flatter. For elk/moose i would set my min at 600gr
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I am a newbie as well and have been using a carbon shaft 6075 with 125gr points and just today used some older 2413 aluminum xx75 gamegetter with 125 grain points. The gamegetters seem to be more accurate and have a heavier smack when they hit the target. I am shooting a Bear cub recrve at 29draw and 45 pull. So I should be using the 2413s then right? For you experienced guys.
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the louder smack with the 2413's may just be the larger diameter shaft making loader sound hitting the target...do they go in deeper than the carbons? Like Larry I shoot axis 400s and 500's (mostly 500's) out of my bows from 45 to 55. All my arrows are cut to 28( i draw 27) and I tune with point weight from 125 up to 250.
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Well for the first time in 20 years I'm going the other way. For years I shot 2219, 2317, and 2419. Now enter the carbon world, 530gr-600gr. I shoot a 55# recurve at 28.5". This year I'm going to shoot a 440gr arrow (8gr per pound)with a 125gr 4bld stinger. I have perfect arrow flight, bow is still quite, and it shoots alot flatter. Out here in the West desert 25-30 yards is a close shot. I'm hunting desert mulies and Texas hill country white tails. I feel alot of the wheel guys that shoot light arrows you see getting poor penetration, are shooting mech BH. If they were using a cut on contact type of BH there results might be different.
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The compound shooters in general are looking for a fast flat shooting arrow with their sites that is their strength probably the 350 grain arrow from a 60# is not the most efficient arrow for the compound bow either and a good amt of energy is never absorbed by the arrow.
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SirRobin....It's like this, would you rather get hit in the rib cage with a plastic wiffle ball at 100 mph or a shot putt at 20 mph?
That is why heavy arrows are used.
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The main reason I might shoot a heavier arrow is to get the bow quieter or because I like big broadheads and they weigh more.I think heavier arrows work better if useing big cut broadheads.When useing lighter arrows I just use smaller broadheads that don't cut as much.The compounds bows you see not getting the pentration people think they should is a result of there broadhead selection not arrow weight.Most are shooting large mechanical heads or multi blade heads.Stick a small two blade on a 350gn arrow and it will not even slow down on deer sized animals.jmo
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Also,
heavier, slower arrow is way more forgiving of a slightly "off" release than a lighter, faster arrow. Plus, heafier arrows can push through some slight brush you may overlook in the way of your shot, whereas the lighter arrow will be more easily deflected.
This has been my experience. When I first switched from compound to Trad---I tried several arrow types: aluminum, wood, and carbon. First, I wanted as light an arrow as I could safely shoot with the faster/flatter is better thought from compound shooting. Could never really get where I wanted to be. Slowly started trying heavier arrows and now i'm up ther at 10gr.pp of bow weight and my arrows fly better, my bow is quieter and more forgiving.
JMO
Ben
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Another thing to consider is that bow pounds are not all equal, due to the differences in energy storage for different designs. A 45# recurve may shoot the same arrow, just as hard, as a 50# r/d longbow, or a 60# Hill style, or a 70# self bow. It's funny to me that people will argue over whether a 45# recurve is adequate for hunting, but nobody questions whether a 70# selfbow is, even though the energy imparted to the arrow is similar for both. There are differences, of course, because the efficiency of the bows changes with arrow weight, but the principle is valid.
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Originally posted by Richie Nell:
SirRobin....It's like this, would you rather get hit in the rib cage with a plastic wiffle ball at 100 mph or a shot putt at 20 mph?
That is why heavy arrows are used.
Its hard to stop a freight train :scared:
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This year I'm shooting a 30" Heritage CE with 200 grains up front, total weight about 615 grains and droppin' 'em like bombs out of my 45# @ 28" recurve. Should be interesting!
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SirRobin....It's like this, would you rather get hit in the rib cage with a plastic wiffle ball at 100 mph or a shot putt at 20 mph?
That is why heavy arrows are used.
A wiffle ball weighs maybe 1 oz - a shot put weighs 16LBS or 256 times more then the ball.
For your comparison to be valid, the whiffle ball needs to be traveling 5,128 MPH. Nothing I want to be hit by.
Steve
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Maybe a dumb question but what is the conversion for "grains". Meaning how many grams (or other unit of measure) equal a grain?
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I've often wondered what a compound that shoots 280fps would do with a 10+gpp arrow. I tried to get a friend who shoots a modern day compound to do a test...he wouldn't have it!
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To aprice555: Here is your conversion without the math.
http://www.metric-conversions.org/weight/grams-to-grains.htm
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Originally posted by snag:
I've often wondered what a compound that shoots 280fps would do with a 10+gpp arrow. I tried to get a friend who shoots a modern day compound to do a test...he wouldn't have it!
I can't chrono it but I can shoot some 10+gpp out of my !@#$%^&* bow and let you know what the trajectory and penetration effects were.
Might, kick like a mule and bite like a crocodile.
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Originally posted by George D. Stout:
Sometimes watch how little penetration those fellers get with their high-speed and mechanical heads. Most times they do not get pass through shots even on thin skinned whitetails. Traditional shooters commonly shoot through whitetails and bigger critters with heavier but slower arrows.
I would have to say their lack of penetration probably has more to do with poor tuning than anything else. A good hunting partner of mine is a devout compound / mechanical head user. I've helped recover a few dozen of his deer kills and can't remember him ever leaving an arrow in a deer. His six bears and one bull moose were also pass throughs.
Unfortunately, I can't really say poor tuning is a compound thing either, judging by the number of stories I hear every year about traditional folks not being able to get pass throughs on whitetails.
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15.4 grains per gram is what I found when I attempted to look it up.
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Originally posted by snag:
I've often wondered what a compound that shoots 280fps would do with a 10+gpp arrow. I tried to get a friend who shoots a modern day compound to do a test...he wouldn't have it!
As I remember in the older days they use to rate compounds by both IBO and AMO standards. They no longer do that just by IBO standards now as it's the faster number. If I remember right the differance was: AMO used a bow draw 28" at 60 lbs with a 500 gr. arrow. IBO uses a bow draw 30" at 70 lbs. with a 300 gr.arrow and no add-ons or flitching on the arrows.
When they listed bow both ways you would see as an example a bow with IBO speed at 300 fps. and AMO speed at 220 fps. But as you can see the IBO speed rating would sell more bows.
I don't know many average compound users that pull 30" @ 70# and shoot 300 gr arrows with their hunting setup. I think a lot of the wheel guys would be surprised what their speed really is on those 320+ rated bows is they shot them through a crono. with their hunting setups .
DJ
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--------------------------------------------------aprice------------------------------
"Maybe a dumb question but what is the conversion for "grains". Meaning how many grams (or other unit of measure) equal a grain?"
1 grain = 65 mg.
1000 mg. = 1 gram
1ooo grams = 1 kg
2.2 lbs = 1 kg
Hope this helps you.
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I value my "EXPENSIVE" Traditional Bows alot more than watching them BLOW UP on light arrows, and they are alot Quieter & Penetration is never a problem w/ a GOOD hit....
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Thank you. I finally know how heavy my arrows are. 560 grains
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7000 grains to the pound, 437.5 to the ounce, 453.6 grams per pound, 15.432 grains per gram.
I believe the AMO standard used a 540 grain arrow.
One of my employees in the arrow shaft business was a pro compound shooter, using an overdraw and shooting fingers with his 70# cam bow. We matched him up with some Superceders cut to fit his overdraw, at a spine of about 120#. They shot beautifully, grouping right with his carbons. It sounded like a bowling ball had hit the target. I don't remember what they weighed, but they were heavy! He shot them some at 3D, but they were so hard to pull from the targets that he quit using them. He was also afraid of losing his sponsor if they found out.