Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: longbow59 on October 19, 2008, 11:14:00 AM
-
I am curious if there was anyone like me who won't use trail cameras? First let me say I do not feel like I am better hunter for not using them. I just can't get over the fact were out there with a stick and string. Then were going to put a electronic device on a tree to let us know deer A is coming in the field between 9 and 10 am. I would be interested in how you guys felt.
-
I do understand your point, but the way I look at it, nothing is guarenteed. I have had elk coming in to a water hole like clock work for the last couple of years (shown on the trail cam) then sat the hole and not seen a single elk, or had them come in and not present a good shot.
I cannot speak for whitetails, but my experience with elk and mule deer is that they are sometimes hard to pattern, you may think they are coming and going consistantly, but then they change for some unknown reason, weather, other animals, etc.
A trail cam for me is more of another fun way/reason to be in the woods getting pics of game I otherwise would not get, and if I am able to up my odds a bit in the process, then so be it.
-
I only go in my area to hunt. I am trying to leave the area as pristine has possible. Do you think by checking camreas you might be leaving to much scent? Therby alerting game.
-
It's fun and if you have limited hunting time in an area it will give you a better idea of where to set up.
An advantage over the deer, I say no way. You still have to do your part to make it happen.
I cannot tell you how many monster whitetails show up on my cameras at some ungodly hour in middle of night. Never seen, let alone killed one of those monsters yet. The big boys even though pressured lightly in my area are almost 100% nocturnal.
-
My buddies are always showing pics of deer after dark. But what good is that? The reason I brought this subject up, I was watching the outdoor channel and Rodger Raglin was advertising a sevice that when a pic was taking at the camera it would email the pic to your computer. I was thinking thats alittle much. My point is we choose to use the hardest weaponry to kill with {a bow and arrow}. then we use electronic devises to hunt with. I dont see how the 2 go together.
-
I think the scouting aspect is minimal,I run cameras and am always seeing bucks I don't have pictures of, and I have pictures of bucks I never see.
It does however give you the opportunity to hunt year around.. No license required.. Kinda like catch and release thing.
Also amazing the other things you catch,, Critters, trespasser etc.
Don't think of it as Scouting, just think of it as another way to spend time out doors and view wildlife.
-
Longbow, it might affect your attitude that you have the longest season in the country, if I am not mistaken.
That gives you a lot of room for error and time to do a lot of ground pounding.
-
I am with you 59 I refuse to use them, I see the enjoyment it brings to others using them so who am I to judge them for using them. I like you kind of want to use my skills to figure what kind of bucks or other activity there is in my woods by READING sign, whether is be disecting scrapes and rubs to studying tracks and locating bedding areas and then try to solve it all by a well placed arrow, not a well placed camera. But again that is just me if others enjoy them so be it.
-
I use a camera, but really it isn't a very good scouting tool for me. Maybe just because I don't use it that way, but from my experience there really isn't much of a pattern to the big boys at least.
I set mine up on a small water hole and get pictures of all kinds of deer at all different times of day and night. Some of the small bucks can be seen fairly often, and maybe if I tried I could even tie them to a pattern. But if I get two or three pictures of one of the big bucks over a one month period I'm doing good. They just don't seem to come around very often, or maybe they are camera shy. Since I don't put the camera where I am trying to hunt it doesn't help or hurt me either way. Just fun to see what is there and keep my hopes and dreams alive.
No way at all do I feel like I am taking unfair advantage. I gain far more knowledge by looking at tracks and sign because they leave those clues wherever they go - not just in one spot like a camera location.
-
Let me clarify one thing ( the question asked) I do not think about it as being unfair or fair, I think of it as a personal decision if someone enjoys it so be it I am not going to think of them as any less of a hunter for using them. I shoot longows and selfbows does that mean everyone has to agree with me?
-
I personally don't have any problem with using a regular trailcam and actually have a couple myself. I will tell you that I was a little hesitant at first, just for the same reasons you probably are. I thought it would make it soooo easy, put a camera on a trail for a couple of weeks or even a month, look at the pictures and see when that big buck is coming in and go sit that spot on his next scheduled visit.
Well, let me tell you, this is my third year of using trailcams now, have gotten thousands of pics of deer, and I am yet to pattern any single deer from it. In fact some of the better bucks, I've only gotten 1 or 2 pics of ever and never have seen those buck in person. And yes those pics were in daylight hours.
Now the newer technology of pics being sent wirelessly to a computer or cell phone as soon as they are taken, I totally agree with you. I feel that is so unethical and would be so easy to abuse, that I think it should be outlawed. I really don't see much difference between those things and the remote control guns with a camera looking through the scope and connected to the internet, for "online hunting".
However, after stating that I do see how these new camera's could help you stay out of your hunting area and not dispersing your scent and bumping deer, etc. That's a great idea, and even yourself stated that as a problem with the regular cameras, but the temptation and human nature to take the easiest route or "cheating" is all too great.
I think these devices will and probably have already started giving hunting a bad name in society. At some point, there has to be a line drawn where "hunting" turns into "shooting/killing", and I feel these cameras have crossed that line.
Sorry for the long post, but just wanted to voice my opinion on the subject.
-
I think it is more entertainment than a sure thing scouting tool. Sure you can see if there are bucks or bulls in the area and if they are shooters. But like others say it is no guarantee with them.
-
they are a GREAT way to involve your children and instill in them a love for nature. Its also nice knowing what the "potential"is in your area. I have an idea what the biggest bucks in the area are, ans what I could or should hold out for. They wont put any more deer in your freezer, but they will educate you! And they can be used for ALOT more than just gettin deer pics.
-
We live in an unavoidable mix of technology.Computers in cars, high def TV, veggie burgers and stick bows-choose those you want.
-
I believe trail cameras to be our greatest scouting tool. I am a full time student and i work on top of that. I have a limited amount of time to hunt so i want to be able to capitalize on it. We do not hunt with stick and string because we want to live in the stone age. We do it for the challenge. It makes us get closer. It makes us feel connected. Trail cameras take away from none of that. The only thing they do is save you the time of sitting in a fruitless spot. They are certainly not sure deals. Tho our cameras are full of deer. I have yet to as much as have a shot. I suppose it comes down to a personal preference just like everything else. My opinion is youre missing out on a whole other world of enjoyment by not getting to check your camera.
regards
kYle
-
I really enjoy my trailcamming. Since I've started camming 5 years ago, I've never had one hanging during hunting season because I'd rather keep it rather then have it stolen. But I found an apple orchard on state ground that I never knew existed last week. It's getting hammered by a few deer including one fair sized buck that I've seen 3 times in that area throughout the summer. I have no interest in killing this buck, but just for heck of it I decided to try to figure out whether he's hitting a nearby clover plot first or hitting the apple orchard first. I put my trailcam up, and got him coming from the clover plot to the apple orchard at 9:45pm. The next night, I set up 200 yards uphill from the clover plot and had him 20 yards from my stand at 6:10pm. He walked away never knowing how much danger he was in. :)
So yes, my trailcam absolutely did give me an advantage had I chose to harvest this buck. Was it unfair? To me it was. But to the next guy maybe not. Depends on how one views these kinds of things.
-
I'd love to have one. I think the advantage is the confidence factor by actually seeing pictures of deer near the stand. A lot of sign helps too but pics would be great.
-
A trail cam will not tell you that a deer "is" going to come into the field between 9 and 10 am, it will only show you what deer has previously come to that field between 9 and 10 am. The area I have my homebrews in is not hunted and I still would not want to try to pattern a deer based on my pics alone. One uses the trip to check cams as scouting time also. Should someone start a thread that electronic mosquito repellants aren't "traditional"? Just as silly IMO.
Mike
-
I apologize but i do find such topics rather frivolous. Decided to chime back in to add that if you feel you are too hard core traditional to use a trail cam then you should abstain from using the mountain of information that you likely obtain, as the rest of us do, from using tradgang! After all, the deer can't use the web so that just isn't fair to them!
Just my .02 =^)
-
Interesting responses. It seems there are a few people who kind feel like me. I can relate to some of the points made like just enjoying getting in the woods and seeing the pics. How much of the popularity is because of marketing. Drury outdoors always talking about cameras and theres Stealth Cam advenures. Do you think they got us again with the hype got to get a camera to deer hunt? Trying not to sound to cynical, is it about them wanting us to buy there product. Just a thought?
-
Fair? The game laws seem to think so, society says yes. Technology probably pulls one away from the simple form of hunting. Personally I use one for the fun/enjoyment of it. Might get me in the woods more during the non hunting times. Sometimes what I see on a trail camera(nocturnal shots)gets me excited about getting in the woods more often. Rarely see the smart old big boys during the day! Unless it is rut time then anything goes. But then we "can" use a buck lure that society says is okay. Beauty is.. we all get to choose amongst all these things and that is between you and mother nature.
-
Just to respond to you KyleAllen. I never said I was hard core tradionalist, there will be some deer that will die by my rifle and muzzleloader this year. I just thought when you decide to hunt the hard way, you hunt the hard way. I guess i am in the minority.
-
the more knowledge you have about the deer population the better ya can make the decsions about hunting that will benefit the herd. a trail cam can aid in those choices. deer ratio, rack size, deer condition, undesirable genetics.....all things that need to be considered with food sources, fawn crop...trail cam can help secure data.
good tool, sorry you don't use one. a deer count happens once a yr, trail cam can supply up to the minute info about important issues.
rusty
-
So far for me:
Trail cam: More squirrels then deer.
Deer taken as a result of using trail cam: zero, 0
Its just a tool, it in no way is a guarantee for success. I just enjoy seeing the pictures. My cabin and primary hunting ground is a 6 hour drive from my house. It just not possible for me to drive and scout as many weekends as I should.
-
Let me tell you about my neighbor.
He is a non hunter. He owns a chunk of land next to mine. He lets my daughter and I bowhunt deer on his land as well. He had some carpentry work done to his house, and one of the workers asked his wife for permission to hunt. She let the guy in thinking no problem. Well my neighbor got to thinking about it and called me up to ask what I thought about it. I thanked him for careing enough about what I thought to call me. He told me that this guy didn't think he would hunt the property very often, and that he already had his trail cameras and tree stands up. How does this sound to you guys? Well I had to keep my temper under control. I told him that it was his property and he had to decide if the guy was ok. He said, "yeah I know" but he didn't understand trail cameras and thought it seamed unfair and didn't realy like the idea that he couldn't walk in his own woods without someone watching him. I educated my neighbor about trail cameras and how some folks use them to find out what kind of deer are in the area and travel times. I also told him that these folks use their "intell" instead of woodsmanship.....
Oh yeah I can here the toes being stepped on and the cries of those who like trail cameras. Anyhow I told him this without too much bias....so help me God.
My neighbor knows how much time I and my daughter spend "traditionaly" hunting deer, I mean with recurves, woodsmanship and bootleather scouting. My neighbor thanked me for educating him and promptly asked the fellow to leave.
Now....I know that a lot of famous respected bowhunters and genuine good folks use trail cameras, and they could tear me up in a debate about traditions and equipment issues. Lets be honest about the bottom line. Show me a guy with a trail camera picture of a monster buck consistantly visiting his stand at 8:15 a.m. up to a day before season starts, and I'll show you that guy sitting in that stand opening morning. Just the same....You show me a guy with a forty yard sight pin on his bow and I'll show you a guy that won't hesitate to use it on that same monster buck when his level of woodsmanship let him down.
-
LPM - well OK let me tell ya about my neighbor. He has owned his 800 acers for 15 yrs. for the first 10 yrs we took nothing but does. ratio was very poor. next 2 yrs we took doe and poor genetic bucks. now he has some really fine bucks and guess what. he has almost quit hunter. he has over 20 trail cam out. named all the bucks, and is not goning to hunt again till the herd needs thinning. he has turned his land into one of the National Hertiage sites.
it ain't the trail camera it's the people. using one or not does not make a good hunter. personal ethics make the person and the hunter.
would ya want the guy on the land if he said ok I won't use trail cameras? :)
rusty
-
of course another point of view is that I can give the name of a million good hunters that think using tradition bowhunting gear is unethical because of the wounding rate compared to the recovery rate. lets hope they are just misinformed too.
rusty
-
Originally posted by longbow59:
My point is we choose to use the hardest weaponry to kill with {a bow and arrow}. then we use electronic devises to hunt with. I dont see how the 2 go together.
I wonder type of arrows and broadheads you use?
I see no difference between using camera's and using carbon or aluminum arrows and tuning them to hit grapes at 20 yards.
The local Governing Agency puts you at a disadvantage by setting hours to hunt and for good reasons.
I see no harm knowing where the deer are and at what time.
Besides, we all know the deer are not where we are at the time of hunting.
-
I used one this year for bear. Was a great tool and had a blast using it. Was able to see a lot of different bear I didn't see in person. A question, ask all those guys over on the trail cam pic thread how many have killed the animals they have pics of. The answer might suprise you. At least from the guys out west.
-
Yes I use them...My actual time to hunt is very limited...season has been in here for over a month and I've only hunted two evenings and one morning...The last five shooter bucks I've taken, I had a trail cam pic of them first...as far as marketing goes, I have 4 digital cameras that I use. I made three of the units myself...plus my family loves looking at the pictures...
David
-
I have couple, i use them more for hope than any thing, were i live most deer dont get past 1 half yrs of age. An i have some pics of 130-150 class deer i never would known roomed our property, if i didn`t have a cuddy back. Talk about hope!! it gives me that an more. My kids cant wait till i pull one of the cards to see whats out there, that alone is good thing, its also some thing we do together an ceaps the kids involved in the out doors :thumbsup:
-
I am suprised most everybody has kept their cool about this, great discussion. I can see both sides both sides to it. what about if it is rifle season and someone gets a pic on their cell phone and they decide to do a deer drive. please don't flip out I still like you camera guys too.
-
the question of having a woods full of cameras and a backpack with toilet paper - well...... it's just plain creepy.....
-
I don't get the internet analogy at all. Tradgang is an electronic campfire if you will where we share stories and information. That's worlds apart from using technology to actually track where and when the deer are moving. You might have guessed that I won't use one-it would take something away from the experience for me, but I am not going to rail at anyone who does.
-
Its cheating
-
I started this post, I think we are having a good discussion on trail cams. This is one of the reasons a site like this so good. We will agree to disagree.
I tell you this there alot of nonhunters out there that see all this stuff and say were not hunting. I hear it all the time about food plots how you get the deer to walk into a pasture and blast them. We know there wrong and right. That was one of my intents about starting this post has to make people see when they choose Tradtion al gear it would be step back to a simpler and more challenging way to take game. Should that not apply to the way we hunt?
For the record I shoot goldtips with snuffers.
-
I think trailcam pics are neat and could care less who uses them.
But, I had a guy refer to them as surveillance cameras once. That got a chuckle.
-
I love trail cams it's pure joy to get pictures of the area wildlife includeing many animals you will never see with your own eyes. They are also a great scouting tool, but after 6 years of using tail cams I have never been able to tell you a certain time a buck is going to be at that camera spot.
-
My son-in-law puts one out at diff. places. I don't mess with them.Heck my deer are so nocturnal we wouldn't see any dear if it wasn't for the cameras.Kip
-
What ever happened to "keeping it simple". I do not think electronic surveillance of game is in the spirit of traditional archery. What's next - electronically tagging your quarry so you can follow it wherever it goes on your GPS tracking system?
And I do not think that people using them should be allowed to enter their game in Pope and Young. It's like allowing the 'roid boys of baseball in the record books -- it's just not a fair comparision.
I'm glad this topic came up. It has been eating at me for a while now. Good post.
-
For a little different spin on trial cameras...they can tell you when you mess up too.
Last year while hunting in Alberta my thin Texas blood was just too cold to stay in the stand any longer. I was sitting on a trail where there was good sign and we had a trailcam up as well and had some good bucks coming by on occasion. Well with about 20 minutes of shooting light left I just couldn't take any more cold and I got out and walked back to camp. YEP...checked the camera the next day and there was a photo of my big butt walking by the camera. The next photo was 10 minutes later of a monster Alberta whitetail. I guess in that instance I would have rather not had the camera. Never saw him again by the way. I'm going back in about 3 weeks and bought better cloths this time!
That dern camera tought me a tough lesson....
-
To answer your original question: not me. I have one but I set it up in my yard. Occassionaly I may put it in the woods, haven't done so in a few years though. I don't use it so much for a scouting tool outside of finding out if there are any bucks of size in the immediate area. If they do show up on camera it does motivate me to hunt that area more but I don't use it near a stand or try to decide when he is where. I have used some low tech ideas to see if something is going down a trail overnight or while I'm in my stand. I've put thread across a trail or a "trigger stick". I also read on here someone put some crossed sticks in a wallow to see if it's being used. Our brain is our best weapon. I don't think it's unfair, I can't smell a spore on the ground, can't hear a padded footfall in the forest, can't see 240 degrees without turning my head, but on the otherhand I'm also not the one who's the prey (hopefully).
BTW, not everyone on here is trying to do it "the hard way" some of us just think it's fun.
-
Of course it cheatin',that's why I use them :smileystooges:
-
I can't ever see me using a trail cam. First off, I have better things to do with my money. Secondly, I like to keep electronics out of the deer woods as much as possible. It detracts from the reason I hunt in the first place. I like the idea of being surprised by the deer I see. I hate the idea of "shopping" for deer by setting out multiple trail cams in different areas, and then hunting where the big bucks are. Too much like the hunting porn shows on TV.
-
I mostly do trailcams for fun, just another hobby I guess. Rarely do I hunt the areas I have cameras located.
Most the locations I put out trailcams are at least an hour away from home up in the mountains.
I like sharing the pics I get with other hunters both here in Oregon and elsewhere, most folks enjoy viewing them.
Ron
-
To me it's just an addition to the the fun. If I don't see anything while in the stand I often enjoy seeing what was there when I wasn't. I can't say that it gives me any real advantage.
-
I don't like them,on our lease we have about nine out, I like not knowing what may walk in. We have community stands and one particular guy takes it upon himself to go down during the week when everyone else is working and down load the pics, and then email them to everyone.well since the first of hunting season he has been hunting one particular stand location everytime he hunts or at least 95% of the time. guess who has killed the biggest deer, and we don't have any pictures showing this buck. we have 1000's of pictures but not of this guy.Go figure.we hunt feeders so why use the stinking things?Now if I hunted public land or the law said no go on baiting that would be different. But in texas that ain't the case.
-
Of course, then there's a whole 'nother reason for using them! Consider:
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e322/rayhammond123/coolesttrailcampicever.jpg)
I cannot take credit for this photo...it was passed on to me by a friend...
I think this whole back to the stone age thing is well, if its your thing to make it really tough- no treestands, no food plots, no private land, only selfbows, only stone points, only wood arrows...have at it!! More power to you!!!
I just like hunting and shooting stuff, and eating it. I use a traditional bow because its the weapon I am most comfortable with, and can shoot in real world hunting situations better than a compound. If I have wood arrows and stone points, I'll use em. If carbons what's around, that works for me too.
If I had the money, I would PAY someone else to make all my arrows, I'd buy every drop of my gear so I had that much more time to scout and hunt. Cause hunting is where its at for me...with stick and string. If its legal, and meets my ethical standards, I'm gonna use it.
It's legal to bait in SC- I bait over there. It's not legal in Georgia....I don't bait here.
-
Woodmanship??? trail cams don't have a deer magnet in them!!! :thumbsup:
David
-
I don't have a camera, but I do scout out my areas ahead of time.. Funny thing though, this year while bowhunting in my usual place, I am sittin in my hide the second morning and the sun comes up.. I am looking at a bush by the spring I am watching and , what the???? I see esmething in the bush.. I take a look and it is a camera... I was there for near a week.. No animals came in, but the guy did get some great shots of me takin a leak and gettin in and out of my blind...
And yes the thought crossed my mind to moon the camera. I restrained myself..
-
It's like running a trap line...or like someone said "catch and release".
With so little time available during hunting season, I do not want to be hunting where there is no game.
Yes, it seems most pics are captured in the middle of the night, but they're still fun.
-
I use mine more for entertainment value. I like knowing what I have in the area- even if most of the pics are after dark. Has my camera led to a direct kill - no. Has it helped me figure out where to place a stand- no. I only have a small 20 acres- so its more fun to check out whats moving through my area.
-
No I won't use one and think they should not be allowed during hunting seasons. I think they are fine for scouting but should not be allowed during hunting dates.
I also believe that if you take a deer while using cams you are not following fair chase and shouldn't be able to submit your deer to P&Y and I quote.
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game..."
-
You know I feel like "To each his own". If you want to use a trail cam for what ever reason, go ahead. If you want to use a compound bow, go ahead. If you want to experiment with EFOC and tiny little fletching and share your experience with it, then, go ahead. We all have our opinions. If you don't agree with my opinion that's fine too. But, I don't think we should be trying to make someone else feel like they are ignorant for their particular opinion. Especially when it comes to something like hunting preferences. There are more important things in life to get all up in the air about. ;)
-
One more point. I am sure that all of you that support trail cam use also then support your local law enforcement in placing undisclosed speed trap cameras that take a picture of your license plate as you speed by.
I just truly believe that if you stop and really consider if these are fair or not in your gut you will know they are not.
-
My trail cameras killed two bucks for me last year.I just go to the camera spots and collect the dead deer laying there! If you want to get into a what's fair and not arguement thats easy. Should we wear new factory realtree camo or hunt in buck skins like we did 100 years ago? Should we make our own bows/arrows vs buying them? Should we hunt from commerical made blinds and tree stands vs natural blinds and tree forks? Should we walk or ride horse back to our hunting spots or drive new modern trucks and 4 wheelers? Should we enter game into record books or is that not in the true meaning Traditional archery? Should we hunt foodplots or acorn trees? Should we use flashlights to track at night or oil lamps? And now the newest to the list: trailcam or not to trailcam. If I went hunting with anyone here one time bet I could find something that gave you an advantage we didn't have 50-75 years ago period. I guess to many people have to much time to sit around and think up how everyone else should live their lives and judge them. I have one Judge in my life and I can promis you it's no one here on Earth or this forum. Ever wonder why when you walk into a local archery store carrying a longbow most guys will not talk to you at first? It is because most compound/rifle hunters think Traditional archers are stuck-up holly-than-now types. They may very well have a point from what I read everyday! In the end I will hunt in the way that makes me happy and I can sleep solid at night. I don't think anyone here is a better or lessor person or hunter than me because they hunt in a different way,different tools, or different weapon than I do.
-
B.glass...Yes Ma'am, you hit the nail on the head!!!!
David
-
Don't use one...but there is always a positive side to everything. That said, help your fellow American...buy U.S.A.
-
is it fair to use my car to get to my hunting spot? is is fair to sleep in a soft bed, in a heated house before a hunt? is it fair to hunt an animal, with a developed and modern thinking mind? it it fair to discuss and get ideas, about hunting things online? the deer cant do these things, so it gives humans an edge. start thinking about what is truly primitive (btw, nothing is or ever will be) you get a head ache, get confused, and the joy of hunting is removed. enjoy what you do, and do what you want. until then, nothing will ever be primitive or traditional.
-
You know, I was all prepared to go off on this long rant about how useful trail cams are. Then someone trumped everything I had written with one sentence...what do you folks have against technology?
I hunt with a long bow because I enjoy the simplicity of the weapon. I use trailcams because they extend my scouting time in the woods. Using one has jack to do with using the other.
-
I am sure that all of you that support trail cam use also then support your local law enforcement in placing undisclosed speed trap cameras that take a picture of your license plate as you speed by.
Yes I do. If you're breaking the law, you're breaking the law. Doesn't matter if anyone else is around.
If you're hunting ethically, you're hunting ethically. Doesn't matter if anyone else is around.
Try another analogy :-)
-
One should not hold others to their personal definition of "fair". In the pre-internet days, where information and help was much more scarce, I invested hundreds of hours learning how to make self bows from cutting down the trees to final product. Is it "fair" that someone can skip all that and buy a finished bow over the counter? I could care less. For the logic of this thread to hold up then everybody who uses trail cams must have several giant mounts. Well, do all of those out there who have cams have a wall of trophies taken from the cams information? Didn't think so. Enough of this "I'm more caveman than you" attitude, please.
-
I've been using trail cameras for better than 6 years now. in fact I just bought a new one on sunday! same reasons as just about everyone else has said here. Frankly I don't see the reasoning behind any opposing arguement.
next you'll be debating the fairness of using a wind checker (be it bottle of powder, feather-n-thread, milkweed duff) ALL of which are using TECHNOLOGY (GASP!) to overcome some kind of problem.
-
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/IronBull_/Smileys/horse.gif)
Well we pretty much know how every one feels now SO
........... (http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/IronBull_/Smileys/topicclosed.gif)............