Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: rg176bnc on October 29, 2008, 09:32:00 PM
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Do you aim low anticipating the deer to duck or do you aim normal? Ive shot over 3 this year. 1st one was obviously alert. 2nd was alittle on edge because it was windy. I don't think he flinched. The third was at 9 yds and I know I didnt aim low enough to start with, but Im sure she flinced a good 3 inchs or so.
Its been a week or so since Ive had a shot and had time to think about it. Trying not to get all screwed up in the head before my next shot.
Im thinking Im gonna aim as low as I can hit it and still hit the kill. Whats your stratagy? Our deer here arent wound up as tight as Texas deer lol.
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put a senstive tape recorder where the deer is and shoot a few shots. now listen the recording. I bet ya can tell when your about to shoot, before ya ever hear the string drop. sometime it is shifting weight in the stand, sometimes it is hunting clothes, sometime it is old bones creeking. that is just in the frequency that humans can hear, think what we are telegraphing to the deer.
I watch the deer closey, looking for it attitude. if it knows i'm there ya gotta shoot real low :) .
I hold 2" under the heart (i am a direct aimer). often hit mid lung. several times a spine shot but I have never shot under one
rusty
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Yep i look at the bottom of the chest on whitetail and usually hit mid lung.
They do duck. Especially Texas deer.
Mike
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Mikes right there! These deer are super QUICK and we do aim low
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I seem to have a problem of always shooting under the deer. I've shot at four deer with my recurve and every time i end up under. I have even set up a 3d target in the woods at my stand site and can drill that thing all day long but when a deer walks to the same spot my arrow goes under! I guess i'll just have to aim high.
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I shoot for the white hairs at the very bottom of a deer. I usually hit mid lung.The white hairs below the crease in the leg to be exact.RC
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I did probably 2" from the bottom and Whitetail down :thumbsup:
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I don't have problems with deer ducking the arrow. I shoot quiet bows, but so do lots of others. I aim where I want it to go.
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Hey, I feel your pain RG176bnc. I have had some shots from the ground and I really think the deer duck quicker than shots from a tree stand. Well, maybe not; but it sure do seem that way. Anyhow, I'm gonna start aiming for the bottom of the chest like these guys suggest. Funny, when I'm shooting from a tree stand I remember to aim low but when I have had shots from the ground I don't! I'm still new to ground hunting and I tend to rush my shots.
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Are you shooting from an elavated platform? If you are in the trees that can make a difference as well.
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I'am with Fletch on this one...Whatever you do,if you start second guessing yourself you can open a whole new can of worms.Aim and shoot where you want the arrow to go....think positve and never ever second guess yourself in the woods.What do you do when target shooting or praticeing for the up coming hunt ??? pratice shooting low ? Guessing which way a critter will jump when and arrow is released ??????? wow I'll buy a copy of that book any day.....bowdoc
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Why would you aim some place you don't want to hit? How do you know what the deer will do? I shoot at the spot I want to hit. Anticipating a deer to do what you think it will is IMO irresponsible.
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Jerry,
Come to TX and shoot over 50 or so or wound a few in the high shoulder, and then talk about irresposible. Your deer don't move like these do. They duck everytime and are about 1/2 the size and twice the speed of a northern deer. You have to adapt to the game your hunting and Texas deer are a shoot at the bottom line animal.
If they stand still, you shoot under. Don't know of anyone that has but you do. It is interesting to look at where the folks are from that talk about aiming low. All from the south. The north guys shoot where they want it and the south guys shoot where it's going to be.
Wish our deer were big and didn't duck!! LOL
Mike
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I've shot over 5 this year, from a tree stand. None knew I was there and I don't believe the ducked, but it happens so fast who knows.
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Northern deer can duck too, especially when you're on the ground with them. Aiming for a heart shot can help with that immensely.
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Jim Dougherty once said that it's hard to hit a deer too low. I agree.
Most hunters tend to shoot a little high on deer anyway, so it makes sense to aim for a low hit.
Better to miss too low than hit too high !
On the Texas deer thing... never judge someone else's hunting by what's happening in your backyard.
All deer aren't created equal.
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I should have.... :banghead:
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Originally posted by vermonster13:
Northern deer can duck too, especially when you're on the ground with them. Aiming for a heart shot can help with that immensely.
I was trying to figure out how to reply with a "multi-quote" from Vermonster and Charlie.
Together they took the words right out of my mouth.
I aim for the heart. If the deer doesn't move ..dead deer. If the deer ducks... lung shot, again dead deer. If the deer jumps... clean miss.
All of these outcomes are vastly preferable to a high wounding hit.
BTW, they also depend on me being able to shoot well enough to make the shot. :biglaugh:
Ron
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Anticipating a deer to do what you think it will is IMO irresponsible.
Hmmmmm....not paying attention to a deer's body language and not anticipating what it might do is IMO irresponsible or just plain ignorant.
The worst that can happen if you aim low and the deer [does not] react is a low hit, which in most cases is exactly what you want, or you shoot under the deer. The worst that can happen if you aim for a double lung hit and the deer ducks, is a high hit, which in some cases means a lost deer running around with an arrow stuck in the shoulder blade or a hole in it.
You bet I am low; sometimes a full body width. I usually aim for the intersection of the back of the front leg with the chest. I don't know about other places, but the deer I hunt out here in W. Texas ALWAYS duck!
Brett
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Yep, me too! I aim for the top of the heart, but then again it always depends on the angle and distance as well, I just usually visualize where I want my arrow to exit and aim at that spot holding low. When we started videoing our hunts several years ago, if was amazing to see how much animals move at the shot. Every single animals I and others have shot on video has reacted to the bow going off, whether it was just a flinch or all out dropping and twisting, everyone reacted! It always suprised me to recover some deer and find the impact point totally different then where I thought the arrow had hit, but by watching it on video you can definitley see the animals reaction to the shot even though at the time of the shot, the eye did not pick it up! Mark
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Yep, aim for the heart. It should be a rule when you buy a trad bow..took me a couple years to learn that lesson the hard way.
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I hunt from tree stands and aim where I want to hit. I'm in Ohio, not Kentucky. (no disrespect to kentucky, I'm referring to the saying Kentucky windage).
Mike
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We were watching a hunting show on tv while eating b'fast this morning. The fellow was in a DB blind and shooting a fast compound. He shot a buck at 15 yds. You can see the deer drop at least 6" before the arrow hits. He aimed at the heart and got a surprise double lung.
Mike
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I like this thread....two doe misses this year so far and both were right over the top. I think this will really help me alot.
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Aiming low was a hard thing to learn. Last year I missed two LARGE bucks by them "jumping the string" or whatever else you want to call it by them ducking and the arrow going just over their backs. One was at 12 yards, the other at about 20. I was shooting a Schulz 68" - 65@28. The first one, I put it on his "double lung area" directly above the front leg, he didn't even know I was there and to my disbelief, he was down so fast (ducking) and up and out in a flash, I couldn't believe it. Second one did the same thing.
Well on the next shot - third deer, I did the lower thing - connected - but it's hard to do that when you practice "hitting the spot". So now, I just lower the spot and shoot right at the top of the front leg or just a bit below that.
Irresponsible - don't think so. Probably for the one up above who made that "judgment" would be good to hold off on that until "he's walked in our shoes" down here in Texas.
Good hunting.
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Shot over 1 doe this year by aiming where I wanted it to go. Problem was she was about a foot lower when the shot got there. I will aim at the white hair under the shoulder crease from now on. I knew better, still kicking myself in the butt.
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I fully agree with Wingnut regarding Texas deer. Got to remember, Texas deer are often hunted over corn. They are seldom relaxed. Always alert. They are smaller then their northern cousins. Aim low(heart shot or bottom third of body at least)to avoid a high hit and lengthy follow up with little blood. Our fearless leader, Terry Green, has had some experience with Texas whitetails. I'm surprized he has not chimed in with his opinion. Must be hunting.
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Deer usually react to the shot. How much depends on where they are (food plot or feeder) - (breezey or silent no wind) - and how big they are. I have a bunch of these 4 year old 80# does like they have in texas - these does are cocked and ready most of the time. The bigger deer we hunt up in WV don't jump the string at all - but they get worked on a lot less than the deer down here and south with longer seasons. For many years we shot low - and we all shot recurves - worked out very well - but I never liked it - always a little uncomfortable with not aiming at actually what I wanted to hit - and factoring in the deer ducking - which they did do often - but not always. About 15 years ago I started using a flatbow - Deer reaction stopped completely - I was amazed - kept going - and sure enough I have never had a deer duck the arrow since - at least not that I could see. Maybe they still react - but less? - and a video would show it if I had it - but I can say for sure - that using a flatbow and then a longbow I have no problems with deer reaction to the shot - I shoot "center of mass" at quartered (slightly) away deer. Still can't let em see ya - most of these (3 to 4 deer a year) are on acorns - and this is at deer that are unalarmed - at least unalarmed up to the point the shot is taken. I like recurves and still hunt em a lot for other game - but for whitetails I am rock solid longbows and flatbows now all the time. I do give up some distance because I am not comfortable shooting beyond 20 yards with longbows - but I gain complete confidence that the deer won't jump at 20 yards and less.
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Originally posted by BobW:
I should have.... :banghead:
:biglaugh: hey, did I mention my wife is referring to you as bob-in-hood now? LOL
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An item dropped will fall 4.9 meters in the first second (ignoring light items that are more influenced by wind resistance). The twitch reflexes of a deer are probably going to make it drop a little slower Unless its actually pulling itself down faster then the pull of gravity). Even an 1/10 th of that is .49 meters. When you are talking about the size of a deers heart and lungs, that's a pretty big gap.
I've always been taught to shoot for the top of the heart but my deer to date have been with a gun so what do I know. :biglaugh:
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Thanks Mike. That does add some helpful perspective.
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If a west Texas deer stood still, I would shoot completly under him. I aim at the elbow just at or below the chest.
http://www.buffsblackwidow.com/videos/pecos11tradgang.wmv
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just a tip for the new guys too...
bend appropriately if shooting from a stand. Shoot from the stand A LOT. focus on keeping the archers 'T'. you'd be surprised how many forget all when a deer shows up, or don't want to move the body too much and risk alerting the deer so they stand straight, and drop their bow arm. which causes a whole host of things including shooting high.
I was taught to pick my spot at the heart. deer doesn't move = dead deer, deer drops, get double lung= dead deer.
I forgot to add...that this is why I don't like severe quartering away shot angles as well. many times the drop and twist and depending on which way the twist you could be in for a long trackin job. I try to limit myself to broadside of ever-so-slightly quartering away....
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I aim for the heart for the already stated reasons. IMHO,deer everywhere duck at the sound of the release and the arrow in flight. Even calm, unalerted deer. I also favor the slightly quartering away shot over all others.(nut)
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"Do you aim low on deer"?
All depends on where I am and the body language of the deer.
Here in GA I hardly ever aim 'low' on calm deer....and aim for what I perceive to be the lower 1/3rd of the lugs as deer may or may not move, and most times they will move a tad as most end up shot middle of the lungs a couple of inches higher. It all happens so fast its really hard to see the initial movement. If the deer is alert, and still close enough for a shot if I decide to take it, then I aim for the white hair line (heart or base of the lungs depending on the angle).
In TX, I ALWAYS aim low....baseline of the animal to be exact. Listen to Wingnut, he and other TXens know of what they speak. Those TX Deer WILL show you movement before your arrow gets there as they are always on alert it seems whether their body language shows it or not. You can plainly see your arrow zeroing in on the exact spot you wanted to hit and they will duck the arrow in the last split second before your very eyes.
It was hard for me to aim low even though I was told to when I 1st started hunting TX, but after the 2nd big buck ducking on 'calm' shots two years in a row I finally gave in and started shooting all bucks and does in TX as if they were on alert.
Below is a typical scenario.....
A TX doe shot from 15 feet up, and 15 yards out broadside. The yellow line is where I actually aimed(yes, baseline of the deer), the impact point was the entry point, and the blue line is the EXIT hole on the other side. YES, the exit hole was actually HIGHER than the entrance as the doe not only ducked but laid over to that extreme. Again, Wingnut has told me he's had this exact same thing happen.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/txhyper2.JPG)
I'm not telling anyone 'where to aim'....just telling you 'where I aim', and you can make the call for yourself based on your observations at the time.
I also don't believe smaller feathers will help either in TX. I truly believe you could shoot an arrow with NO feathers and the deer will not be in the same spot when the arrow arrives.
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The deer are crazier here in Texas. They will duck, roll and laugh to get away from my arrow. No kidding, except for the laughter. They do that later. Aim low and pray in Texas. Bhill
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Brent....we had a guy in camp once that made a broadside shot, some 20 yards, and he self admittedly 'lucked up' and killed it. It was a nice 8 pointer and he cut its jugular, but get this, when the jugular was cut the buck was facing the OPPOSITE direction!!!
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Well the fastest bow on the market would boost a arrow speed of lets say 375-400 ft per second.And thats smoken fast for any arrow....and sound travels at a speed of around 1,240 ft.per second.More then 3 times faster then any arrow..go figure huh. bowdoc
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A friend just happend bye during our little discusion here.He mentioned sometimes saying things like we shot low or aimed low is sometimes an excuss for a poorly placed shot.What do you guy's think.......bowdoc
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Thanks for all the replies. Nice to know Im not alone. My last two shots were on the ground on 15mph (min) windy days. Ive listend to my buddy shoot my bow and I know its not overly loud. A BW 52# shooting a 610gr arrow. The deer where Im hunting are on high alert lately as to high hunting pressure.
Im going to aim for the heart and see what happens. I normally hedge my bets and aim mid deer. Gotta get this figured out before I head to Central KS.
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I only hold low on muledeer if I have missed them 3 times - by then they get nervous.
If you stand up straight and then try to jump; you have to bend your knees; and that is what deer are doing- just bending the legs to take off; not ducking the arrow.
I rarely have shot a deer that I stopped before a shot - as in making a doe bleat to stop it. I see that a lot on the tv - and it is hard for me to equate that with trad hunting. If you can draw your bow back and wait for minutes; until a shot appears; then maybe you need to make a doe bleat. But normally for me; just the movement and sound of drawing back - makes the deer slow to a stop. In that case I would shoot low- but I like the deer to be coming to a stop when I shoot. Then it stops just as the arrow hits.
doesnt take a texas whitetail to avoid an arrow- where ever they are from they are quick ! I am working on a shot at a muledeer doe; and I don't expect any reaction until the arrow gets there...
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Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
If you stand up straight and then try to jump; you have to bend your knees; and that is what deer are doing- just bending the legs to take off;
Exactly Brian...that's just what happens, and that's what most folks just call 'Jumping the string', 'ducking the string', or 'ducking the arrow'.
They are loading up their legs to get out of there, and by doing so they duck the arrow.
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I grew up hunting in VA and killed some deer there with my bow. I have since hunted hill country whitetails in TX in recent years. My first time hunting TX deer I was SHOCKED at how edgy and jumpy they are. It's like they stopped at Starbucks for a double-shot before showing up for the hunt. They are some wired little deer. The difference in deer behavior from region to region is real. Don't know why this is, but I sure know exactly why these TX guys are saying to aim low.
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Deer hunted by mountain lions are also a bit jumpy. I had a deer swap ends while the arrow was in midflight. Gladly I got good penetration and it was a short run for the deer.
Jason
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I was tucked into a cedar tree in Arkansas this morning when 3 does came into a feeder that I had set up. Let them and myself settle down for about 3 to4 miniutes. Probably 20 yd shot with 50LB longbow. Picked a spot behind shoulder at mid lung area. Perfect straight alignment, however she ducked the string and as I always try to hold thru the shot you can imagine what I saw down that line of sight. Went right over the top about 2 to 3 inches. She ran back about15 yds behind a tree and then just came right back up but this time a few yds further back, not over 25 yds. ( I practice out to 35YDs) so I said OK lets try this differently. Aimed at the lower line on the body as explained here. Guess what she did? Stood there like a brick wall and never jumped. Went 4 inches under her just behind the elbow. Thought I had it all figured out. I think I am going to start aiming for the lower half as mentioned on this thread and see if it will work better. This has happened too many times before to just keep happening. By the way I was only up about 12ft high.