Post by: pcappy08 on November 03, 2008, 07:06:00 PM
found some great sign around 3pm and at 430 had 8 does assorted ages and a 3pt yearling come in to feed....perfect does at 20yds a slam dunk...well here is the twist....when the does were coming in i noticed the little buck was really laboring badly so i let the does cross past my position to get a better look at him and sure enough his right rear leg was broken badly
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....well over the next 30mins and drawing and letting down several times while arguing with myself nightfall finally made my decision for me...i let him walk ...i still feel guilty for it knowing that winter or the coyotes will get him when i had the ability to prevent his suffering but the fear of the fine from a game warden or losing my hunting privileges kept me from doing what i felt to be the ethically right thing....normally i would never take a young buck like that but it really gets to me when i see a deer suffering... so i ask in that position what would you do?
Post by: ishiwannabe on November 03, 2008, 07:09:00 PM
Dont be surprised if he makes it though....they are amazing animals.
Maybe a call to your local F & W officer could answer your question?
Post by: pdk25 on November 03, 2008, 07:18:00 PM
Post by: Jedimaster on November 03, 2008, 07:23:00 PM
It would not have been morally wrong to put him down. On the other hand, it wouldn't have been morally right either. Judgement call. Don't second guess or lament, you did fine.
Post by: Bonebuster on November 03, 2008, 09:19:00 PM
I would have shot him, and made the warden look me in the eye when he wrote the ticket.
Post by: Clay Hayes on November 03, 2008, 09:59:00 PM
That’s a bold statement but, deep down, we all know it’s true. I wouldn’t hold it against a hunter for going either way. I think I would have shot the deer then contacted the local warden. If he’s got a conscience, he should understand. He probably wouldn’t let you keep the buck though.
Post by: luv2bowhunt on November 03, 2008, 10:14:00 PM
There are several other animals that suffer in the wild that we never see... sometimes we happen to be in a position to see it, but you still have to do what is legal. Laws are there for a reason and even though we might not agree with them we still need to abide by them.
Just my 2 cents...
Post by: limbow on November 03, 2008, 10:16:00 PM
Post by: Wannabe1 on November 03, 2008, 10:25:00 PM
You did right! Kevin hit it on the nailhead. It's the fact that you cared that takes you a step above! :thumbsup:
Post by: Eric Krewson on November 04, 2008, 07:32:00 AM
Post by: Curveman on November 04, 2008, 08:04:00 AM
I could never watch an animal suffer regardless of the law. It doesn't matter that it happens in nature-this scene is happening in front of you so you have a decision to make. I would've taken him. What is legal and what is ethical are not always the same. If I were a game officer I would let you off if I caught you. Are you sure that the law doesn't allow for you to take injured game? That being said, I wouldn't let it bother you. Wild animals never die peaceful deaths. Things like this happen in nature all the time.
Post by: James Wrenn on November 04, 2008, 08:15:00 AM
Post by: wingnut on November 04, 2008, 08:32:00 AM
Secondly; the deer has a good chance to survive and if it doesn't, that's natures way.
In many of the posts above, ethics and laws are being bantered about like they are different. I don't believe that's the case. In all ethical decisions, the law of the land is the first filter. Then all the other stuff comes to bear.
Let him walk even though he limps.
Mike
Post by: vermonster13 on November 04, 2008, 08:44:00 AM
Few choices are easy ones, but you made the right one IMO.
Post by: joekeith on November 04, 2008, 08:50:00 AM
Post by: MI_Bowhunter on November 04, 2008, 09:04:00 AM
I would have let him walk. I'm not willing to risk losing my hunting privileges over taking an illegal deer. For better or worse, nature recycles it own.
I'm not saying I wouldn't feel for the animal, but the law is the law whether I agree with it or not. Once we start making those decisions for ourselves, picking and choosing which laws suits our needs at the time, it opens up a Pandora's Box of issues.
Post by: OkKeith on November 04, 2008, 09:56:00 AM
When I worked for our Dept. of Wildlife Conservation here in Oklahoma I did a LOT of hunter ed. classes (a lot means signing a couple of thousand cards a year). I really enjoyed doing the hunter ethics portion of the 6 hour class. This very scenario was part of the group discussion session.
When I asked this question there were always the few folks on each extreme. Adamant it should have been taken regardless of the law, adamant it should never be taken because of the law. I usually tag-teamed these classes with someone from the Law Enforcement division and they always went for coffee when this came around.
The guys I did these classes with were good guys. All of them had been in conservation law enforcement for at least 10 years. When I had the opportunity to ask them about this... whether or not they would fine an individual who put down an injured game animal that was out of bounds of the regulations, every one of them said, yes. They had no choice.
If a violation was committed, it was there sworn duty to uphold the law as stated in the statutes that defined the game laws. That didn't mean they liked it or agreed with it but that's the job.
Now, a few said that they most likely would not show up in court to press the matter, but the ticket would get written. What the judge did with it afterwards was beyond their control.
What would I do? Most likely let it walk. I have seen a lot of injured deer make it.
OkKeith
Post by: John Scifres on November 04, 2008, 10:27:00 AM
Killing an animal because YOU have an emotional empathy for their perceived suffering is about YOU, not the animal. Empathy for the animal is misplaced since empathy cannot cross the species line. Animals are not people.
Post by: dirtguy on November 04, 2008, 10:42:00 AM
IMO, Same here.
Post by: Clay Hayes on November 04, 2008, 06:21:00 PM
John, how can you say this? Would you really feel nothing if you witnessed, first hand, an animal dying a slow and agonizing death? In all honesty, the cruel nature of nature aside, do you really feel no compassion for a suffering critter?
The question I ask is not one of legality, but of basic human nature.
Post by: Curtiss Cardinal on November 04, 2008, 06:48:00 PM
Post by: upatree on November 04, 2008, 07:45:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by pcappy08:The game and fish made your decision for you with the antler rule. It's a tough decision but you have to follow the rules if you want to continue to play the game.
Since work was slow today I was able to sneak out today for the majority of the day and figured i would try and take a doe....where i hunt there is a 3pt on a side quality deer management rule in effect by fish game and wildlife
found some great sign around 3pm and at 430 had 8 does assorted ages and a 3pt yearling come in to feed....perfect does at 20yds a slam dunk...well here is the twist....when the does were coming in i noticed the little buck was really laboring badly so i let the does cross past my position to get a better look at him and sure enough his right rear leg was broken badly
Post by: smokin joe on November 04, 2008, 07:53:00 PM
Post by: Curveman on November 04, 2008, 08:26:00 PM
Post by: Sam McMichael on November 04, 2008, 08:33:00 PM
Post by: Bonebuster on November 04, 2008, 08:50:00 PM
The law IS the law, but right is right.
Post by: Deadbolt on November 04, 2008, 09:13:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Clay Hayes:You have never lived in NJ i suspect LOL!! they would have came crashing down on him with the book.
I wouldn’t hold it against a hunter for going either way. I think I would have shot the deer then contacted the local warden. If he’s got a conscience, he should understand. He probably wouldn’t let you keep the buck though.
Me personally being i butcher my own animals I would have shot it and taken him down and butched that night.
If you needed to chweck it in simply do it under another zone...I hate to see an animal suffer.
All that being said as long as this deer is not going to make it...if he has a shot then its your call. I dont agree with alot of the rules of my state but I abide by them unless it comes down to an injured animal.
Post by: JEFF B on November 04, 2008, 09:25:00 PM
Post by: Billy on November 04, 2008, 11:25:00 PM
Pete, you KNOW that in NJ; had you been caught you would have been 'tried and convicted' on the spot!! You also know that all the arguments -for and against- are born of personal experience.
You now have something to go to the CO with and ask for a 'ruling'. I think you'll find you did the right and legal thing.
I for one, stand with the view, that we put too much "humanity" into an animal's thoughts and emotions.
I won't willingly let an animal suffer. I won't ascribe my feelings to their species; nor will I break the law to be humane.
The laws may be wrong but; either we abide by them,
or they will be used against us and our fellow hunters/trappers.
Sleep well Pete, you did the "more right" thing in your case.
Post by: Killdeer on November 05, 2008, 06:55:00 AM
pcappy08, it was a difficult choice, and I applaud your compassion. I recently made a hard choice in the woods, and these questions occurred to me as I was making the decision:
What would have happened if I had not been here? Is he any worse off for my having been here?
The law is blind to the pain that you witnessed. The law could be modified through channels, but then the next slippery slope would be to determine exactly how bad off or with what injuries would it be legal to execute a "mercy killing." Otherwise, every big buck in a "does only unit" with a scrape on his hide, or a limp from a stone bruise would find himself a candidate for our warm, fuzzy, compassionate weapons.
Nature is blind to the pain you witnessed. It has no compassion for the individual critter (or us) and that is a hard thing for a human heart to swallow. But that is how it was before we ever set foot on the planet, and will be after we are gone. We ARE made different than the critters, we are saddled with conscience, the basis of knowing right from wrong, good from evil. That conscience causes much consternation and pain, but it has its rewards. It also separates us from our source, the natural world, and the organic basis of our existence. I find myself reconnected to that Source through my experiences in the wild, especially through the gift of an animal given me for succor. That is why I hunt, and why I go and seek the beauty, and sometimes the pain, that is found every time we walk the hunting path.
You saw the pain, and were saddened by it. You are a balanced human with good conscience. You obeyed the law, which means that you can go out hunting again. Walk in Beauty, and gather the Light.
Killdeer :campfire:
Post by: swampjoe on November 05, 2008, 09:14:00 AM
So beautifully written Killdeer, as always.
pcappy, your personal ethics are not up for discussion, even here among your friends. This choice was personal and there is no right or wrong answer. The law abiding aspect is a difficult point. Of course the correct way to view it is that the law is the law. I wonder - here in Canada, we have to register our long guns - if you don't, you are a criminal. Think about that and it's various implications for a moment. I have. Turns out I consort with a lot of criminals - criminals who were fine upstanding community men the day before the legislation came into effect. In my opinion, they still are.
To answer your question what would I have done? I'd have taken him. In a blink. With a game warden beside me, pad in hand. But if I hadn't I'd put it behind me and move on. Forget about it and get back out there pcappy....we need more hunters like you in the bush.
Post by: TRAP on November 28, 2008, 07:10:00 PM
No right or wrong decision here, It will turn out good either way. Either for the deer or for the coyotes.
Trap
Post by: Jeff Roberts on November 28, 2008, 08:50:00 PM
Post by: jrchambers on November 28, 2008, 09:27:00 PM
Post by: longbow59 on November 29, 2008, 04:02:00 AM
Post by: Little Tree on November 29, 2008, 09:10:00 AM
Post by: John Nail on November 29, 2008, 09:52:00 AM
Some years ago, a young man hit a deer right at dusk in front of my house. He knocked on the door, called his dad to report the NEW car he had wrecked, and called the game warden. At that time, we had one who was trying to make a name for himself(he certainly did). We waited about 45 min. The kid knocked again, and said the deer was crying and suffering terribly. I went to look, and sure enough, there was blood coming out of it's mouth, labored breathing, and it couldn't get up. At least one broken leg. I went for the "house pistol" and shot it. I told the kid to tell the warden what we did, and to NOT waste the meat. In due time- about an hour- the warden knocked on my door. He shined his light in my eyes as if I was a criminal and threatened to arrest me for shooting the deer. He said only HE could decide if the deer should be put down, to which I added that he should have come sooner then. He paced back and forth obviously angry at me, until I asked him what he was so "on" about. He said, "I'm trying to decide wheather to arrest you or not!" I said "Well, I'll help you" and shut and locked my door. Turned off the porch light, and went to bed--after calling my friend and neighbor, the county sheriff, who came over and straightened the mess out. Point is: I WAS TRYING TO DO THE RIGHT THING. That didn't matter one bit to that particular woods cop. I'm sure an older head would have considered it.
Post by: Steve B. on November 29, 2008, 10:59:00 AM
Post by: bowless on November 29, 2008, 11:40:00 AM
Post by: nutmeg on November 29, 2008, 01:24:00 PM
Post by: pine nut on November 29, 2008, 02:09:00 PM
I cringe when I hear someone say to shoot them in the head or neck either for that matter. The boiler room is the target!