Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: wingnut on November 26, 2008, 08:20:00 AM
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From our exit hole thread we learned that it may not be how sharp a BH is before it enters the animal, but how sharp it is as it exits that is the determining factor. I've taken the challenge of going from my age old "file sharp" mentality to taking the edge to "don't want to be in the same room sharp".
To start on the project this morning I pulled the DMT grit chart. As a dealer, I'm lucky in that I have all of these grits in stock and available to use:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/mwestvang/tradgang%20pics/grit_chart.gif)
The real heavy ones will really move metal and after already doing the file I think would be overkill. Where do you think I should start with a good file sharpened head? I'm thinking Red, Green, White, Tan.
Mike
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Then a leather strop and then burnishing on a piece of glass. But I would be scared to carry it around unless it was immediately coated with something (like Chapstick) and put in a protective quiver.
Keep us posted on getting them super sharp.
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I go from the file to the red stone. From there to the green - that puts a VERY sharp edge on the WW. If you want one step further then go from the green to a strop, but it really isn't necessary - the green does a heckuva job.
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With this project, I'm not going to go to "good enough" or VERY sharp. I'm going to go to "it can't get sharper" in my hands.
Got some stuff to do this am. And then I'm going to get started and take pics as I go.
Mike
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:campfire:
David
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The green stone is the equivalent of 900 grit sandpaper, or put another way a little coarser than the typical hard (white) Arkansas stone. Sharp, but nowhere near polished.
The ceramic stone is just over midway between the hard and translucent Arkansas stones (~1700grit sandpaper) and should do a good job of getting a nice polished edge, and may just be able to cut a free-standing hair.
The tan stone will put a near-mirror edge on. It's finer than the hard black Arkansas.
For a true razor edge you should polish with a 30000 waterstone (that's not a typo). That will not only cut a standing hair, but split a standing hair.
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I forgot you were a DMT dealer... we'll talk later :)
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just for my info just how sharp would you say the majority of the pre sharpened blades such as muzzy or thunderheads are based on the above info. I use WW's and the eclipse and feel like i get them purty sharp but should they be sharper?
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Good stuff. The Snuffers and Woodsmans are about 45hrc, softer than many heads, to compensate for the blade angle which can make them harder to get sharp. Anyway you should be able to get them wicked, I'm watching with great interest! :clapper:
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Looking forward to this one Mike.
:thumbsup: :campfire:
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Mike,
You may want to do another experiment after; take one to a 6" grinder first, then go thru the same process you settle on with the stones. The hollow grind start may yeild an even finer edge.
I am very interested to see how this progresses!
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looking forward to it mike WW can get very sharp i would start about red like you said if you have it flat with the file
also remember you can over sharpen an edge once it gets very sharp you have to be careful as you can make it worse trying it make it sharper needs a delicate precise touch at the finishing stages
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I love ww's but I doubt that anyone can get them really sharp. If I could get them sharp like my kitchen knives I'd be mightily pleased, but alas it's never to be....you see it's the metal that matters and they're made to stay in one peice after the shot not to be scary sharp.
As an aside I notice that when you buy them: knives are sharp, razors are sharp, scissors are sharp etc. Everything I buy with an edge comes sharpened and ready to use why oh why can't a broadhead? After 20 years of cooking and sharpening knives countless times I'm just sick of sharpening stuff.
the chef
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has any one hollow ground them, I use a spray paint can wraped with sandpaper and leather with jb bore paste gets the angle flat and sharp, I think that if one pass on your arm takes all the hair it comes in contact with it is as sharp as its going to get or at least wont be able to tell a difference.
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JR, you could make them even sharper that way initially, but I suspect the edge holding qualities would deteriorate significantly. Plays right into the "sharp on the other side" thread topic.
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I use....
1. file
2. blue DMT
3. red DMT
4. strop with oil soaked leather.
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Originally posted by wingnut:
With this project, I'm not going to go to "good enough" or VERY sharp. I'm going to go to "it can't get sharper" in my hands.
Got some stuff to do this am. And then I'm going to get started and take pics as I go.
Mike
After reading you "only file sharpen your heads" Mike, it's good to see old dog's are willing to learn new tricks.
If you look at a file sharpened edge under a microscope it looks like a saw blade, now your going to smooth out that edge to a fine edge.
As doctors already know, a super smooth edge causes more hemorrhaging, and is much harder to stop, and that's what we want, don't we.
Another great topic Wingnut :clapper:
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Mike,
Sorry to chime in so late on this.
Since the heads are already file sharpened I'd only use the blue (coarse) and red (fine) then go to the white ceramic if you have one. (I'd use a Norton cobination india stone between the fine diamond and the white ceramic but not sure if you have one of those).
Next Strop on dry corrugated cardboard. If your doing a three blade head, then lay the head on the cardboard. Lift one blade up slightly and drag the other blade backward across the surface of the cardboard. Then reverse to do the other blade. Then rotate the head and repete. Kind of like a skating motion except instead of pushing into the blade that's down, you're pulling it backwards. You don't want to crush or even compress the cardboard.
Snufferes, WWs, Razorcaps or almost any three blade head can be made every bit as sharp or sharper than a brand new razorblade. Push from elbow to wrist and not leave a single hair behind. I say almost because there is one popular head out there that the metal is just not adequately hardened to be able to develop that level of sharpness.
Ron
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Ok Mike, its after lunch now. Really looking forward to this. is there anyway you can video some of this so us sharpening challenged guys can see how you move the head along your sharpening media
Gnenn
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Oh yea, one other thing that's sure to raise a couple eyebrows...
When sharpening a three blade head I push the head away from me point first rather than pulling it backwards like so many recommend.
This is the equivelent of hand sharpening a knife when you draw the blade, edge first along the stone as though you were trying to shave a slice off the stone. You wouldn't use an "away from the edge" motion to sharpen anything else so why would a 3 blade broadhead be any different?
And as you progress through finer and finer grits use less and less pressure. It's also critical to rotate the broadhead every single pass, particularly with the finest grit.
Ron
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WW, are the easiest head to sharpen IMO and I have sharpened about ALL of them. The "new" ones are a breaze. 8 inch file until it EASILY grabs your nail and then a run it over a diamond steel. Just pushing it over width wise about a dozen light times. It WILL shave hair at this point. I feel NO need to go beyond this. BILL
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I'm going to be a nay-sayer here.
In my experience there's only so much that "polishing" the edge can do. After that you have to change the edge geometry and the KIND of metal.
I don't know what my Kabar knife is on hardness...but it's 1095 and the softest of my knives...it's still surely harder than HRC45...I'd guess mid-50s. It won't hold an edge worth a lick but it only takes a second get back shaving. I also have S30V, AUS8, VG10, and D2 blades. The hardest is the D2 at HRC60-61, and the S30V may be there also.
Now...what am I rambling for? The original post talked about trying to get a sharper broadhead on EXIT! So I think we're wasting our time just polishing. Like I said, in my experience, you have to change edge geometry and edge material to get a difference in performance after 12-20" of hair, hide, flesh, and ribs. Hollow grinding the edge has been mentioned. I think this the place to start. The metal on WW will "wear" down a certain amount. We can't stop that. But we can thin the material immediately behind the leading edge. This gives us a thinner and "sharper" edge when the BH exits.
"But it wears down faster if it's a thinner edge." (I can here you say that) And I'd say "Yep, we have to find the happy medium...but I'd guess it's much lower than 60 degrees."
This leaves us with material and hardness. And we get into really really expensive testing of prototypes. Raise the hardness...but not too much then it'll get brittle, but it won't wear as fast and stay sharper. Change the material, some "wear" slower than others....even at identical "hardness". If I was a millionaire I'd love to introduce the world to a laminated BH. You'd have a hard cutting edge with a stainless and very soft "outside". You've now got the best of both worlds, edge retention without brittleness.
Sorry for the short book. Just my ideas. You'll only get so far by polishing...and then things get really complicated.
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I've got a habit of explaining problems and then not giving solutions, sorry.
What I would look at is the hollow grind idea somebody mentioned earlier. Then when "polishing" the edge use 1500 and 2000grit sandpaper on a mousepad. Finish with strop of leather or computer paper on the mousepad. Might be worthwhile. Get a hollow grind blade with a slighly convex edge. May do better, but will definitely sharpen up even faster than normal on subsequent sharpenings.
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Ok, here we go. First I took a BH out of my kill box. This is the head that I took Rojo with. It was file sharpened and went through 3/4 sheild on entry and 1" sheild on exit. And a lot of pig in between.
I tested it and it is dull. You could cut with it but it would take effort.
Here are our tools left to right( DMT Green/Tan, DMT 6 Way, Woodsman, New Bastard File, DMT Blue/Red:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/mwestvang/tradgang%20pics/sharp_1.jpg)
So I file sharpened it just like in Charlie's video.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/mwestvang/tradgang%20pics/sharp_2.jpg)
Results: sharp in a snaggy way.
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Next I repeated the process of 5 strokes per side, 4, 3, 2, 1, 1 lighter and lighter with the Red. I noticed the file marks disappear and finer lines forming on the bright edge. Edge felt sharp but had to work to cut hair.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/mwestvang/tradgang%20pics/sharp_3.jpg)
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Repeated the process again with the Green. Tool marks are lighter by far and the edge cuts hair but doesn't pop.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/mwestvang/tradgang%20pics/sharp_4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/mwestvang/tradgang%20pics/sharp_5.jpg)
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Ok, now on to the ceramic on the 6 in one tool. We could have used this for all steps as it has a Blue, Red and a ceramic.
The edge really came up and pops hair.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v79/mwestvang/tradgang%20pics/sharp_6.jpg)
I then did the same process with the Tan. It is very fine and polishs the edge up. I didn't notice a great deal of difference in sharpness however.
I think I will try the ceramic sharp heads and see how they do. They sure take the hair off of my arm easier.
Mike
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Mike, with the DMT stones are you just pushing the stone from back to front of the broadhead?
Mike
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Yep, I'm using them just like the file and following the same sequence as file sharpening.
Mike
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Hey Wingnut, great thread. Your other thread on bloodtrails was too. Just for grins and giggles, take another Woodsman and file sharpen it just like you normally do. Find a buddy that has just taken a deer,hog etc. that will let you shoot it with your broadheads. Whack it in the ribs with both of them and see which one comes out the sharpest. Its been my limited experience with Woodsman broadheads that honed edges shot into a foam broadhead target felt duller than filed ones. I'd be interested in what you find out. I only used the red DMT stone for my honed edge.
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I posted this question on another thread going...
***** question??? when sharpening the WW using using the method shown i noticed that when using the 6" file the cut is across 2 blades. this causes the cut to be in towards the ferrule on 1 blade and away from it on the other side of the blade. does this have any effect on sharpness?
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Rob,
I dont believe so.
Mike
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I'll be testing both heads on hogs in January on a hunt. Hope I can hit what I'm looking at.
Mike
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I pulled the DMT grit chart. As a dealer,
Any Tradgang pricing available on those?
Sent ya a PM.
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Hey Mike,
Just a thought here....others may have mentioned already....your premise is that creating exit holes has to do with how sharp the broadhead is ON THE WAY OUT of an animal. Thus, you're trying to get a WW as sharp as you can. However, you admit that the head in question was "dull" after it went through a pig. Doesn't that call to question whether the head is worthy of staying sharp on the way out regardless of sharpness going in?
I've killed animals with the WW and I'm happy with them....but again, your premise and statement that this head was dull after penetration seem contradictory.
I'll be happy to learn more from you along the way.
homebru
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Homebru,
This head has been in the box for a few years after it did it's deed and it wasn't cleaned up. It had it's share of rust and grit on it. The 'dull" observation was after all that. I am going to be checking my head sharpness on every critter we take from now on.
I know the two WW I shot my doe with earlier this year were sharp when I checked them. In fact the chest shot was very sharp.
I'm going to work up a quiver full of the "extreme sharp" heads and use them for a few months.
I'll let you know.
I was pleased with how easy the DMT Diamond stones worked the blade down.
Mike
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I always drawfile mine, that way I'm not cutting toward and away from opposite edges. Machinists drawfile often if they want more control of the file and if it's appropriate to the shape of the item.
I'd also venture to say that anyone doing it freehand ie: holding the arrow in one hand and the sharpening device in the other hand won't ever get a really harp edge. I clamp mine in the vise so there is minimal movememt. Movement of any kind equates to an edge that will be off "kilter."
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Originally posted by Soilarch:
Now...what am I rambling for? The original post talked about trying to get a sharper broadhead on EXIT! So I think we're wasting our time just polishing. Like I said, in my experience, you have to change edge geometry and edge material to get a difference in performance after 12-20" of hair, hide, flesh, and ribs. Hollow grinding the edge has been mentioned. I think this the place to start. The metal on WW will "wear" down a certain amount. We can't stop that. But we can thin the material immediately behind the leading edge. This gives us a thinner and "sharper" edge when the BH exits.
"But it wears down faster if it's a thinner edge." (I can here you say that) And I'd say "Yep, we have to find the happy medium...but I'd guess it's much lower than 60 degrees."
I just received some Woodsmans and my mind came up with some thoughts...
The effective cutting edge on these broadheads is a lot lower than 60 degrees without hollow grinding it.
If you sharpen the head flat it gives you 60 degrees across the blades, but that isn't perpendicular to any blade edge, it's slightly under perpendicular. Therefore the perpendicular cutting edge on each blade is already under 60 degrees.
But also bear in mind that the edge isn't designed to be cutting perpendicularly it's designed to cut on a 3 in 1 slant therefore the effective cutting edge i would estimate will be somewhere around 20 degrees.
If you hollow grind you will go a lot under 20 degrees and i would guess you could weaken the effective cutting edge by doing so.
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Be sure to protect them in quiver adequately from contact with each other and use something to prevent the oxidation of the edges. I use a light coat of chapstick on my BH when placing into a foam hood quiver. Also believe this helps with them becoming less sharp due to contact/motion with foam when shooting other arrows.
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Freefeet,
The bevel angle(s) on any cutting blade is measured from the center-line of the blade.
A circle is 360 degrees, divided by 3 (blades)= 120 degrees total bevel per blade, divided by 2 bevels per blade = 60 degrees per bevel.
A 3:1 length to width design reduces resistance to pentetration over shorter, wider head designs regardless of the number of blades but, has no effect on the bevel angle. It's still going to be 60 degrees per side unless, it's hollow ground or the blades can be removed and individually beveled lower than that.
Ron
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So I guess what I'm hearing or in this case seeing is that the WW design with a 60 degree bevel is only going to get so sharp without reengineering the head and making it something else.
My original premise was that I was going from "file sharp" to "razor sharp" and I've done that to my satisfaction. Unfortunately I have not had a chance to test the exit sharp theory. Need a pig to stand still long enough to get 'r done.
I'll keep you posted.
Mike
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Mike,
That's not entirely correct. Lin Rhea and I were discussing this not long ago. Many people confuse sharpness with performance.
In theory, a cutting edge should terminate in a true and complete intersection of two bevels with no flat at the edge. Unfortunately, even the finest stones or rouges cannot produce a cutting edge that measures 0.00000. Even the sharpest straight razor has a microscopic "flat" on it's cutting edge. Sharpness is defined by the width of this flat as measured in the tens or hundreds of thousandths and it has nothing to do with bevel angle.
If we sharpen two knives (or broadhead blades) separately, one beveled at 90 degrees (45 each side) and another at 15 degrees, (7.5 each side), there is no reason we could not attain the same level of sharpness on both. Both could shave hair easily. Where we would see the difference is in performance of the cutting edges. The 90 degree edge would not slice a tomato nearly as easily as the 15 degree edge because of the increased "wedge effect" of the 90 degree edge. The actual cutting edges are equally sharp but, the steep angles of the bevels impede the 90 degree blade from penetrating the tomato because of the abrupt wedge immediately behind the cutting edge. This is what Ed Ashby refers to as the "MA" or mechanical advantage of the bevel geometry.
Now if we were doing some serious chopping the 90 degree edge would hold it's level of sharpness exponentially longer than the 15 degree edge would because the 90 degree edge is very well supported and re-enforced by the same wedge shape that caused it to perform poorly on the tomato.
There is also the separate MA of the broadheads overall design. This is where the 3:1 ratio decreases the resistance to penetration over shorter, wider designs for exactly the same reason above but in a different direction or plane.
Long and short of it is- Yes, you can get your WWs every bit as sharp as any other blade on the planet.
I'm a devout two blade shooter but, it's not because I think two blades are superior by design, for me it's an accuracy issue. I just get consistently better groups with two blades and shot placement trumps all else. I'm also a sharpening nut and it's easier to get a two blade crazy sharp than a three blade (for me).
As bowhunters we want to do as much damage as possible with the one shot we generally get so, following that logic, a multiblade head would be the best choice provided that we can get that head every bit as sharp as a two blade AND get excellent groups too. The recipe requires all the ingredients to work properly and can be tough to put together consistently.
Ron
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Yeah, what he said! :thumbsup:
And then that whole thing about how well the blade holds up as it passes through a bunch of different mediums inside a critter from hard stuff to gooshey stuff! :)
I had talked to some friends who had a hog hunting operation in OK...they said that they'd usually find any "lost" bow hit hogs and the gal did a necropsy--which at that time, often revealed the real pointy 3-blade style of heads the tip rolled over if it caught the shield or other heavy obsticles and limited penetration.
Course', that's not to say they were good and sharp going in (or staying that way)so nothing universal can be learned from anecdotal evidence.
Where at least in Ashby's stuff, while not scientific, he could alter one variable at a time and then check for repeated penetration behaviors--which is pretty scientific come to think of it! :)
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Originally posted by Sharpster:
The actual cutting edges are equally sharp but, the steep angles of the bevels impede the 90 degree blade from penetrating the tomato because of the abrupt wedge immediately behind the cutting edge. This is what Ed Ashby refers to as the "MA" or mechanical advantage of the bevel geometry.
Now if we were doing some serious chopping the 90 degree edge would hold it's level of sharpness exponentially longer than the 15 degree edge would because the 90 degree edge is very well supported and re-enforced by the same wedge shape that caused it to perform poorly on the tomato.
There is also the separate MA of the broadheads overall design. This is where the 3:1 ratio decreases the resistance to penetration over shorter, wider designs for exactly the same reason above but in a different direction or plane.
This is exactly what i was referring to in my last post as "effective cutting edge".
A 90 degree edge will not cut as cleanly as a 30 degree edge if they are used going straight on, perpendicular to the edge, but it will cut as cleanly if it is moved so the cut hits the edge at an angle. The effective cutting edge of the 90 degree edge can easily be made 30 degrees by slicing at something like a 30 degree angle. At the same time the 90 degree edge retains all the longevity properties of a 90 degree edge.
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I'm a sharpness nut as well. I shoot broadheads year round, and probably 10 to 1 over field points. Point being I shoot a LOT of broadheads.
It has been my observation that the hard steel of the Tuskers and Grizzlies hold their edge exceedingly well. Second place for edge retention goes to Woodsmans/Snuffers in my observations. The steel in those heads is only 45 HRC but I believe the blade angle helps them hold their edge.
If I take a typical 2 blade head of the average 48 to 50 HRC, I can get a wicked edge on them but it definitely doesn't hold like the Tuskers and Grizzlies IF I take them down to a very shallow blade edge or single bevel them. If I leave them double bevel at the factory angle they will not be quite as sharp to start with but they will hold the edge pretty well.
We need to remember that the quality of steel has a lot to do with the performance of the single bevel. What good is a dull single bevel?
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Originally posted by calgarychef:
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I'd also venture to say that anyone doing it freehand ie: holding the arrow in one hand and the sharpening device in the other hand won't ever get a really sharp edge. I clamp mine in the vise so there is minimal movememt. Movement of any kind equates to an edge that will be off "kilter.."
There are some who teach to file sharpen there Boadheads freehand, like they saw Fred Bear do it 45 years ago in hunting camp, obviously it works and has worked, I've done it. :knothead:
Like O.J Simpson, the evidence is overwhelming, you can ignore it, that's your choice, however, post like this one will help everyone learn what is really sharp, verses kinda sharp.
To me it's like the razor I use, at first it cuts effortlessly, and when I cut my self, I don't even know it until I look in the mirror, the amazing thing is, I can't stop it from bleeding until I apply direct pressure for quite some time, and this is only skin, not a vain or artery (Thank God) you could never get it to stop before you dropped dead.
As the blade is used a few times, it begins to hurt and cause razor burn from scraping my skin, it's still sharp, and cuts, just not as good as it once was.
I want a edge as sharp as it can be, why? so it bleeds and bleeds and bleeds, just like when I get nicked while shaving.
Learning to get a razors edge is an acquired skill, with practice and dedication any one can learn to get a razors edge.
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I want a edge as sharp as it can be, why? so it bleeds and bleeds and bleeds, just like when I get nicked while shaving.
Sure. THe question is, how sharp is that edge after coming out of your quiver and passing through the hair and hide of a game animal?
You can create an edge on a broadhead that will scare a surgeon. That doesn't necessarily mean that edge will be more effective. The edge also has to be durable.
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Originally posted by SlowBowinMO:
It has been my observation that the hard steel of the Tuskers and Grizzlies hold their edge exceedingly well. Second place for edge retention goes to Woodsmans/Snuffers in my observations. The steel in those heads is only 45 HRC but I believe the blade angle helps them hold their edge.
We need to remember that the quality of steel has a lot to do with the performance of the single bevel. What good is a dull single bevel?
Absolutely right Slowbow! The quality of the steel is another ingredient in the recipe that's critical to the cutting edge's durability, be it a single or double bevel or a knife or razor blade.
Somewhat more durable cutting edges can be created on softer steel blades by increasing the bevel angle, but better steel = a better broadhead, no matter how many blades or bevels the head may have.
Ron
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Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
[Sure. THe question is, how sharp is that edge after coming out of your quiver and passing through the hair and hide of a game animal?
durable.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN2377.jpg)
Jeff, 10/4, The hard caked mud, hair, gristle, fat, muscle, and bone will test every part of our equipment.
If it was dark when I shot this Boar, I'm sure I would of seen sparks,LOL
I think Doctor Ashby said: 25-30 edge degrees was the best of both worlds, sharp and strong, of course with good steel.
To thin and it could curl, to thick and it will impede penetration.
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KWB,
Do you have a zoomed out photo of that one? I am guessing you opened that up from the wound to the top of the pig? The broadhead didn't do ALL that did it?
Isn't it time for some more hog hunts out there...the dangerous game forum is lacking right now!
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I'am not sure you could get the angle correct on a WW,but in 1957 Howard Hill did not need no shaveing sharp broadheads.I'am not tring to be funny just another view...bowdoc (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/bowdocs/ser002.jpg)
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...bd (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/bowdocs/ser004.jpg)
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(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/bowdocs/ser003.jpg)
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I love'ya Bowdoc, they use to use leeches and drain your blood when you where sick, glad we stopped using them also.
We have more information now than Howey or Freddy had.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN2356002-1.jpg)
Steve o, The arrow went in just where the coagulated blood is, I wanted to show how much STUFF you have to go through just to get inside.
I hear'ya freezers getting then on pork.
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Originally posted by the real bowdoc:
(http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/bowdocs/ser003.jpg)
Bowdoc, Howard is ripping a serrated edge on this head, buy running the file backwards on the edge.
I have used this :scared: in the field to get a edge on a shot broadhead, it's a 2nd best edge. lol
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I been using that same type serrated edge myself for well lets just say sometime now and it sure works great for me.However I just read some doctors are going back to the leeches as it worked far better then a Rohr 714 does..bd
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That full pic helps me visualize much better, thanks. That is all behind the shoulder? That one must have looked like an Abrhams in front of it!
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King it works to do it freehand, I've done it too. I do my knives freehand on a steel and on a stone. But there aint nobody in the world who can make it as consistently sharp freehand as when it's snugged up in a vise, even if your name is Fred!!
the chef
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There's sharp:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/bracken1/Diamondhones005.jpg)
And then there is down in less than 7 seconds sharp ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/bracken1/GrizzlyBH011.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v624/bracken1/GrizzlyBH021.jpg)
Brett
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Sure. THe question is, how sharp is that edge after coming out of your quiver and passing through the hair and hide of a game animal?
You can create an edge on a broadhead that will scare a surgeon. That doesn't necessarily mean that edge will be more effective. The edge also has to be durable. [/QB]
I'm not a sharpening expert. Far from it. I'm just now getting to where I can put a decent edge on a blade. But I can do logic and your arguement is working against you. If you are concerned about how sharp a very sharp blade will be after coming out of your quiver and passing through the hide and hair of an animal think how more critical that is if you only start out with a moderately sharp blade.
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The idea is to have a durable aaaand surgically sharp edge. We've all read Dr. Ashby's reports and his recommendations as to how to achieve those standards. But just because your BH is dull after it has passed through an animal doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't sharp when it came out the other side or it's not doing it's job to the fullest.....at least in my mind.
I may be wrong on this, but isn't there a consensus that [one] of the standards of sharpness and durability, as far as BH brands, is the German Kinetics Silver Flame? I believe it is. That being said......I've NEVER had one remain sharp after the first shot.....NEVER! When they hit the dirt.....they're dull. I've never had any BH remain sharp after a shot unless it was still in the animal when I recovered it.
But...what the heck do I know. :confused:
Brett
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Once you take that wire edge off it'll be even nicer!!
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Originally posted by Sharpster:
Freefeet,
The bevel angle(s) on any cutting blade is measured from the center-line of the blade.
A circle is 360 degrees, divided by 3 (blades)= 120 degrees total bevel per blade, divided by 2 bevels per blade = 60 degrees per bevel.
I hadn't followed all of this, but the math has got me confused. If you lay the head on a flat surface and look at it from the end, the 120 degree angle will be where the two blades meet the ferrule. The angle between the blade and the flat surface would be 30 degrees. Right? A triangle has a total of 180 degrees, and the triangle is formed from where each blades touches the flat surface and where they meet at the ferrule.
When referring to a bevel isn't it just the angle of one side of the blade? Each blade has two bevels, and that would give the total of 60 degrees?
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Hey Whip,
30 + 30 = 60.
You've got the math correct but you're only looking at one of two bevels on the blade.
homebru aka nathan in parker, co
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So when we refer to the bevel angle on a blade aren't we talking about just one of the bevels, so 30 degrees? Ron's quote was 60 degrees per bevel, and that's throwing me. Then again, I am easily confused! :knothead:
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Yes whip, it is just the one side.
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Hi Whip
yeah, 30 per side giving a total edge of 60 degrees.
To be a little geeky...
bear in mind that this 60 degrees is when you sharpen across the blades as recommended but in doing so you're not sharpening perpendicular to the edge because of the slope of the blades - each edge is moving away from the other - this in effect gives the finished total edge less than a 60 degree angle when measured perpendicular to that edge.
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And Whip was a banker !
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and the bevel angle is 30 degrees on each side. Isn't 30 degree bevel the recommended for durablity.
Mike
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Hey Whip you don't need to know no angle.bowdoc (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/hin035.jpg)
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This has been an interesting thread...fun and serious at the same time. Most of the discussion on here has been about the WW or the Grizzly heads. For a number of years I used the WW after they came out because they sharpened easily and gave me better penetration than the Snuffers. Then I tried the Muzzy four blade Phantoms. I sharpen them using a Razoredge jig (which I know Charlie Lamb uses on his Mag I's) or one of Sharpster's, and found that after exiting an animal (deer and bear) they were still exceedingly sharp. I also found that even when shot into certain soils, usually soft, wet, bog like soils we have in our swampy areas, they did not seem to loose their edge at all. I assumed it had to do with the fact that they were made with "cutlery grade" stainless steel. I love the way they sharpen up and hold their edge. I have found the same thing to be true with Razorcaps, real easy to get that popping hair edge and an ability to hold it under the conditions I just described. I have also found that the Razorcaps, for me, have put down animals about twice as fast as any bh I have ever used, which I attribute to the edge I can achieve and the quality of the steel (more bleeding in less time). I guess all I am saying is, as some have suggested, getting a good edge is important but that edge will work better as the quality of the steel improves. Just for the record I use the black (when needed), blue and red DMT stones on my heads. Razorcaps I finish with very light strokes on a ceramic rod and the Phantoms are finished on a leather strop glued to a wooden block.
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Sorry Whip,
My brain got in the way of my thinking... :knothead:
It is 30 degrees per bevel for a total or "included" angle of 60 degrees.
Should have been one more "divided by two" in my post.
Ron
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Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
And Whip was a banker !
"was" being the key word ;)
Whew! Thanks Ron, now I feel better!
:biglaugh:
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Ron,
Down here we call em 'goes inta's'
You know like 2 'goes inta' 60, 30 times
Mike
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Yea, I hear ya Mike,
Kinda like when my brain "goes inta" total meltdown from time to time! :thumbsup:
Ron
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after shooting your "flat" sharpened broadheads into a foam block--a dozen times--will they still shave hair?
hollow ground 3 blade broadheads will
how many really good sharp knives are sharpened at 30 degrees?------none
I am more interested in how sharp the head is AFTER it comes out of the animal--
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Did you ever try running one over the 6" grinder and do the same thing to compare the hollow ground edge? I think Scott is right.
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Bill,
I recently worked up a few of my Magnus I's on the old Razoredge... that thing is about sharpened away, but still works real well.
I'm gonna get me a KME as soon as the ole budget allows... should be about turkey time before that happens.
:D
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I run more than a few "flat sharpened" Woodsman's through critters and into the ground. Like Bill Carlson I found them to be adequately sharp unless the ground was rocky... a couple passes on a ceramic hone and they were more than ready to go again.
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Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
And Whip was a banker !
Must not have been an invest banker, cuz those guys know all the angles to use to get more of us folks money... Oh us taxpayers own those investment banks these days... I'll be quiet fer awhile...
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I've been playing around for the last 3 days resharpening all my WW's and I'm about ready to give up. If you can get these hair popping sharp I'd have to see it for myself. I'm not sharpen challenged. I may not be the best at sharpening things but I can get my STOS and Magnus heads pretty scary sharp & my knives. I just can't get a WW scary sharp. I can get them what I would call hunting sharp but not hair popping and so sharp you are afraid to touch them.
I have used files,DMT stones in 600 and 1200 grit plus sandpaper from 60 grit to 2000 grit, leather strop ect ect ect. Seems like the more I try to polish the edge the duller it gets. I get the best results with light strokes from a file and then about 4 passes each side on the red DMT stone, then 1/2 passes on a hard stone and then strop it a few times. Any more then that and I swear it gets duller.
I've pushed the head, pulled the head, front to back, back to front an then used the sideways method. All with the same results.
I've watched Charlie's method and tried it numerous times and I get about the same results.
You have to put pressure on the head to get it to cut hair. Not the results I'm trying to achieve at all.
I'm starting to wonder if "Hair Popping" is the same degree of sharpness to all of us. I'd sure like to mail one of mine to someone who says they can get them hair popping sharp and have them send it back.
Any takers?
:help:
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Sure Mike, PM your address and I'll send you one.
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ttt
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ttt