Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: KentuckyTJ on March 02, 2009, 07:45:00 PM
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I have no idea why someone hasn't done this already but I would like to have the heavy weighted brass inserts for all my different aluminum arrow shaft sizes as well as some carbons (if all are not available). If I was a machinist and had the tools I would do this but since I'm not I was wondering if one of you guys would possibly have an interest to do this?
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Indeed, Kentuk, someone should. I left aluminums and modular broadheads behind years ago in favor of woodies and fixed 2-blades. And I never even considered carbons. Only recently did I open the old closed mind to experimentation with both, thanks to Doc Ashby's tenacious and convincing work (once we quit arguing against it and actually give it a try for ourselves). When I tried to buy brass or steel inserts for a single 2413 alum shaft I bought to cut into pieces to experimentally sleeve the fronts of some woodies (for added strength, weight, and the option to use screw-in heads), the salesman chuckled and said none such were available. I figured they probably are available, just not at this local-yokel wheelie-bow shop. But if you say not, I'm sure you're more experienced in contemporary aluminums than I am, so there it is. But again, I agree we need brass and/or steel inserts for alum as well as carbon shafts. For two good reasons: aluminum (or, for Ozzie Clint and our other Brit friends, "al-U-min-e-um") inserts are weak and often fail, and, the more weight up front, the better for accuracy (up to a logical point, of course) and definitely for penetration. The carbon industry is way ahead on this. Brass or steel, or both is the only way to go for hardware. Right now as never before in my lifetime, there are market opportunities that will not only make a living for a few enterprising folk, but better bowhunting by making us more effective killers. dave
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Several suppliers have screw in points in up to 200grn weights. Would these work as well as the more expensive brass inserts? Frank
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Tom and Dave, I couldn't agree more. Not only are all aluminum arrow shaft inserts made of aluminun, NONE are even made in the USA.
If there's an American machinist among us who can make steel inserts, I'll take 1000 pcs to start, and probably need 4000 or more each year.
:pray:
Ron
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I'm finding the same thing out. I would like to find an insert, brass or steel, that is glue in for my 2018's that are built for glue on broad heads. I havn't been able to find them anywhere. Best I can tell no one makes them. If anyone know differently please let us know.
BOB
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:biglaugh: hey dave, it's spelt 'aloominum' LOL :biglaugh:
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I haven't seen any heavy inserts for aluminums,but they have inserts at Kustom King and 3Rivers that are PDP adjustable converta point inserts that allow the use of add on weights behind the inserts like carbons do.There might be a market for carbons,like say one size insert could fit GT's,Blackhawk Vapors,CE Heritage,Beman ICS and any other similar size carbon.One insert for all those carbons,aluminum you would have to make one for each size and have a market large enough to make money.
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A problem straight off with this is making them a consistent weight with the different sizes you would need.
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Time and Money, You will need a CNC machine. Which would not cheap to have someone write a program and then produce a few 1000 inserts. I have tried making some on a conventional lathe, but gave up after a couple hours.
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Now is a good time to do it.. I have shops calling me every day looking for work.
You may have to do the math such a sizes, and weight
etc..
However 1000 pieces for a job shop, especially when they are that small and varied sizes, won't excite many shops.
You are really looking for someone with a small Swiss style turning center, and there will possibly be a tooling charge.
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The other thing is that with aluminum shafts there are many different ID sizes, carbon a few. Just for an example,, 20XX shafts three popular sizes 16, 18 and 20's all take a different size.. How many of each do you want, in your 1000 pieces. 10K per size you can probably get a small shop to go for it.
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JRY309 I have some of the screw in deals. I see them as for testing purposes only and not for permanent use. They are hard to get perfectly straight and create wobble in the point end of the arrow (not a good thing).
Guys I am aware of the challenges but this is the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA and its time for someone with the tools and know-how to rise to the challenge for the better of the entire trad community.
Seriously, Bob has a good point I didn't think about. I don't use them but seems there is a glue on broadhead nitch as well. I know I would order at least a 100 of the screw in model right now of various sizes.
Come on forward thinking machinists where are you?????
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What weights would you guys be interested in? I am guessing that the challenges would out weigh the return but I will look into it. Mainly because of all the different shaft diameters that you can get with aluminum arrows. Then factor in all the different weights from 50 grains all the way to 200 or 300 grains and I am guessing one would never recoupe what they have in it. But it would be a simple process and with a CNC lathe like we have here in the shop it wouldnt take much to turn out a few thousand.
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There you go Tim thanks for giving this a look.
I realize there are a ton of various sized aluminum shafts on the market. What about just looking at doing the 5 most popular sizes for a start?
I would be interested in 50 and 100 grain brass inserts for my Easton 2114's and 2016's.
For a price comparison it looks like 3 rivers sells a dozen of them for $13.99.
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If anyone has interest in this please post what aluminum shaft size(s) you would like to have a heavier brass insert for.
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Tim If you did take this on I can send you some old shafts so you would have them for measuring purposes.
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there are readily available alternatives for upping the arrow foc. there are vendors like 3r and kk that offer 50 & 100 gr brass inserts, as well as steel screw-in tapered point/broadhead adapters that go up to 125gr. i'm using 100gr brass inserts + 125gr steel adapters + 125gr ww heads for a 350gr front end package for beman and ad carbons.
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Rob, but are these inserts available for aluminum shafts in the various sizes? I think we are all aware that we can get pretty much anything we want for carbon shafts.
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Originally posted by Tim Fishell:
Rob, but are these inserts available for aluminum shafts in the various sizes? I think we are all aware that we can get pretty much anything we want for carbon shafts.
tom (and others) did mention the brass inserts need for carbons as well as the alums. might also be able to retro-fit these to alums, too.
if it's increased foc that's needed, just using 75, 100 or 125gr steel adapters will make a big difference, and those adapters alone will make a big foc difference for any arra, alums included.
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Rob, that's exactly what I'm looking for....more FOC. I would like to add 75 to 100 gr. but with only using a one piece broadhead insert. If I'm not mistaken my aluminum one piece inserts weigh about 38 gr. I would like to have one that weighed about 100 to 125 gr.
BOB
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i vastly prefer to use 125gr glue-on broadheads, slow-set epoxied to 125gr steel adapters. there's a better selection of glue-on heads, and this way it won't matter what shaft material yer using.
otherwise, you've got to go to a heavy insert or add some pdp back end insert weight (currently only 50gr max).
for me, in the long run i prefer carbons over alums - just a much more durble shaft material - but i can surely understand not wanting to change away from a great flying alum arrow.
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Rob, I am wanting these for screw in field points and broadheads. I like the versatility of being able to change head weight on the fly and not having to glue on.
I'm sure there is a market for these I can't be the only one out here.
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Rob, that's what I use except I use 135 gr. glue on broadheads. I just weighed my adapter and it weighs 58 gr. So I'm shooting 193 gr up front. I would like to try to get to somewhere around 250 or so much like you are shooting. Do you have any suggestions for adding weight behind my adapter that would be effective and durable.
BOB
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"change head weight on the fly"? not for me - heck, i get an arra to fly well outta a particular bow, i ain't changin' the foc! i'll shoot that arra all the time, and just change out head type (broadhead, judo, field, blunt) but never ever the head weight. to each their own and ymmv.
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Originally posted by ArkyBob:
Rob, that's what I use except I use 135 gr. glue on broadheads. I just weighed my adapter and it weighs 58 gr. So I'm shooting 193 gr up front. I would like to try to get to somewhere around 250 or so much like you are shooting. Do you have any suggestions for adding weight behind my adapter that would be effective and durable.
BOB
yer a prime candidate for a steel adapter.
135gr point + 125gr steel adapter + 40gr alum insert = a heckuva lot more foc and overall arra weight. :D
addendum - steel adapters are currently 75, 100 and 125gr
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That's my problem. My arrows fly great with my set up. I just would like to "add" a little something up front and still get a great flying arrow. I know by adding FOC I'll be starting all over again in finding correct spine by shortening arrow length but it's something I might try over the summer before I head back to Colorado in Sept.
BOB
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Thanks for the help Rob
BOB
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For what it is worth....many of the one piece bh adapters for aluminum are hollow and are easily filled with solder. On the other hand, the use of steel screw in adapters in various weights and the availability of various weight bhs makes adding FOC easy, as far as I can see. Another option is to check out the aluminum screw in inserts you currently use. Most of them have a small hole in the back that can be drilled out and tapped to accept a 10/32 or and 8/32 screw. I believe there is an artilcle in the latest TBM that describes this by Dennis Kamstra,
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Rob, Let's say I get a new bow and I have three different shafts already that I use in my other bows and am trying to get them to fly properly out of this new bow. I like to be able to put on different head weights in testing these shafts. I started this thread and I didn't bring up the glue on issue at all. I realize there is a glue on option. The purpose of this thread is to help us screw in folks.
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Sorry TJ I didn't mean to change the thread, I just got caught up in the idea.
BOB
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Not to be a party pooper ... but could it be that aluminum shafts are becoming obsolete?
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No worries Bob all good discussion. I'm just trying to solve an issue I've wanted for a long time and it looks as if it may be on the right track.
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Rob, Let's say I get a new bow and I have three different shafts already that I use in my other bows and am trying to get them to fly properly out of this new bow. I like to be able to put on different head weights in testing these shafts. I started this thread and I didn't bring up the glue on issue at all. I realize there is a glue on option. The purpose of this thread is to help us screw in folks.
my bad - i thought your statement about changing the heads on the fly was aimed at hunting, not for testing. looks like yer gonna need to find a source for custom machined alum inserts - good luck!
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Originally posted by Dave2old:
Not to be a party pooper ... but could it be that aluminum shafts are becoming obsolete?
it's highly possible, just not within the next score of years, i'd think. but for now, what's sorely lacking is a versatile array of heavy alum inserts, and due to all the different id and od spex for alums, it ain't gonna be easy or cheap to get that to happen.
thank goodness for carbons - those nasty black devils that are such a pain to tame for the trad bowhunter. took me quite awhile to figure out what doesn't and does work for me.
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No problem Rob thanks for trying to help.
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Originally posted by Sharpster:
Not only are all aluminum arrow shaft inserts made of aluminun, NONE are even made in the USA.
Ron,
Not sure where you got this information but there are alot of aluminum arrow shaft inserts that are made in the USA along with steel and brass which I have first hand knowlege of.
KentuckyTJ,
Although I am not a machinist I have about 9 years experience in the archery industry with about 25 years experience in retail sales and have overseen numberous arrow insert, points, weights systems and so forth from design to market. One of my first of several that I personally designed was the 100 grain brass broadhead adapter for the CX shaft. I designed it and saw it thru to marketing, so I have a good idea of how the whole process works and can get it done.
Having heavy inserts made for any carbon or aluminum shaft is not a problem and most of the time it can be done in a rather short time frame. To be honest, I had given 100gr and 50gr brass inserts for aluminium shafting some consideration about 4 years ago. The problem always came back to sales volume versus manufacturing costs. Anybody can have an item made on a small scale, but the cost would prohibit sales. I wouldn't pay $30 for a dozen inserts, so you have to manufacture a sizeable number (ie 1,000 10,000 ) to get the cost in a reasonable ballpark. This is what keeps most everybody away from manufacturing them. The number that you have to manufacturer versus the time you think that they will turn over or someone has to take a gamble and make them and take the risk of them sitting on a shelf and collecting dust. dino
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Why not just buy some brass rod, thread it to fit in the back of your aluminum insert and cut it to the weight you need, a drop of epoxy on the threads and it should never come loose...should be fairly cheap to do also.
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Originally posted by indianalongbowshooter:
Why not just buy some brass rod, thread it to fit in the back of your aluminum insert and cut it to the weight you need, a drop of epoxy on the threads and it should never come loose...should be fairly cheap to do also.
that's like the pdp insert weights. from my vantage point, that method isn't as effective as a heavy insert or adapter as the foc isn't gonna be as great due to placing that added insert weight behind the insert. i'd think it would take a long piece of brass (or whatever) to add on 100 grains, too. probably could just use a big nail, chucked into hand drill, ground down one end to force fit the insert's rear threads, adjust the total weight as needed, don't bother cutting threads and just slow-set epoxy the whole thing together. lotta work, imo.
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Originally posted by Dave2old:
Not to be a party pooper ... but could it be that aluminum shafts are becoming obsolete?
Dave that could be but because of their economic cost versus wood and carbon, I would bet they might be around for some time along with Eastons move to streamline the sizes in the gamegetter II series with sizes that match carbons (500,400,340,300) are making them a market contender. Coupled with the fact of a trend toward heavier shafts, aluminums straightness, consistency specs and gpi make them a great shafting choice. dino
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Dino, I would like 100 pieces right now and Ron (Mr. KME himself - aka Sharpster) has requested 1000 in his first order and 4000 per year. 3 rivers once told me they get this request often. If nothing else comes from this I would like someone to make me some. I have no idea if there is a huge market for one of the large corporations or not but for someone that has a CNC machine at their disposal this may be worth their time.
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I think the problem is aluminums are a different animal and even in shafts that spine the same as carbons react totally diffrent to weight added up front. I had some .500 aluminums and some .500 carbons and I needed a lot more weight up front on the aluminums to get the same flight as the carbons. 175 on the carbons and 300 on the aluminums. Both were the same length 29.5"s and shot from the same bow. Alsowhy shoot aluminums, they do not hold up as well and they at least to me are noisy at the shot and seem harder to tune tham carbons. Shawn
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Lets not start the Carbon VS. Aluminum debate again!!!
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Given an insert that has a hole all the way through, and given that the hole is threaded all the way through, the following might help:
Find a brass screw of the same diameter and thread pitch as the insert. Get an egg shaped lead fishing weight with the same outside diameter as the inside diameter of the arrow shaft. Drill out the lead weight to accept the brass screw. Insert the screw through the weight and thread the whole thing into the back of your aluminum inserts. Solid, won't move (given you use some lock-tite) and cheap.
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Guys I have had a couple machinist contact me via email and this is actually in the works for heavier brass inserts for aluminum shafts. Looks like 50 and 100 grains will be initial options. Please if you have any interest in these post here on size needed and how many you may be interested in ordering so we can see if there is a market.
Need to know 50 or 100 grain, how many you may order and which aluminum shafts you would like them to fit inside. When stating shaft name give all info on shaft i.e. 2016 Easton Gamegetter II or 2114 Gamegetter III Yukons.
Thanks T.J.
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Originally posted by Tim Fishell:
Lets not start the Carbon VS. Aluminum debate again!!!
hasn't happened yet in this thread, and i assure you it won't.
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Also why shoot aluminums, they do not hold up as well and they at least to me are noisy at the shot and seem harder to tune tham carbons. Shawn [/QB]
Just making sure this comment didnt lead to anything there Rob!!
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So...is there any more interest in these? Anything else other than 50 and 100 grains? I was thinking 2016, 2018, 2020, 2114, and 2117 would probably be good places to start on sizes.
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if the predominate bh in use is a pre-built screw-in, then consider going for high foc with at least 300 grains total up front (for at least 25% foc with a 28+" arrow). that would dictate at least a 150 grain insert with a 125-190 grain bh. just a thought to consider. i always build an arra based on total weight and foc, and use front end weight to achieve both - but that's just my thinking and requirement.
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Good thoughts Rob. Since aluminums are not as stiff as carbons should we worry about adding too much weight up front? I've never done any testing with any more than about 250 total grains on the head so I'm not sure how aluminums act above that.
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i've been using beman 500 carbons, 29.5" from the nock groove to the front of the brass 100 grain insert, 125gr steel adpapter with a glue-in 125 grain ww broadhead (or judo or field point) for a total of 350 grain front end package, 29.31% foc, 585 grain total arrow weight. i use this arrow for every kinda shooting with a 55.5# holding weight mohawk longbow. by all the charts and arrow knowledge, this is a really weenie weak arrow for that much bow horsepower. but as others can attest, my arrow flight is like a little bottle rocket dart. go figure. i spent too much money and time following the shaft chart wisdoms and finally just experimented on my own. then again, i do believe that carbons are at least somewhat harder to tune than alums - alums are pretty easy, at least for me.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/snuff1.jpg)
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Thanks for the help Rob. Going for 300 grains total up front seems to be a good number to aim for.
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Sorry for the confusion Guys,
I'm okay with aluminum inserts, just that I'm not okay with buying them from Korea or China, or Taiwan. Which is where they're all made. (I have called all the manufacturers).
Dino, if you know of an American made aluminum insert, please let me know who makes them. I only need one size but, lots of them.
Ron
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I have always shot large cutting diameter broadheads. Over the past two season's however I've shot 9 whitetails with a new broadhead setup (for me). Not stating this to brag just giving the info to validate my point. I've gone to a smaller 100 grain broadhead. They are smaller both in diameter and weight. I have noticed much better penetration with the smaller diameter head and my recovery ratio has increased because of it. The smaller head of course has less drag than the large diameter heads when going through the animal. Although the smaller diameter is good the loss in weight with the smaller head is as you know not good. I do use the 100 grain brass inserts (in my carbons) to pump up the head weight as much as possible and is the reason I began this thread. So I am interested in at least the 100 grain option for aluminums.
If you guys think there is a market for heavier inserts I would definitely like to give them a go as well. Like Dr. Ashby and Rob are saying as long as your shafts can carry it more weight is better all around.
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I think 2219 is a popular size also. That's what I would need.
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I started a thread about this same thing a few weeks ago,but it got little attention and drifted off the page(Big surprise).
I for one would LOVE to see brass or steel inserts for aluminums.Without getting into all of it,it's about time someone made them.They make everything for tinkering with carbons,and have forgotten about us aluminum guys(You know...those arrows that where around after wood,before fiberglass...)
2018,2216 2117 are my sizes.
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Greg and Richard, a manufacturer for 3-Rivers (Dino) has been in contact with me and he is working on marketable sizes and pricing.
Thanks for posting your wish lists.
T.J.