Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Michl on March 27, 2009, 04:46:00 AM
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What do you think about this speed test?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4500479755446250576
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I liked it.It is a great way for guys that like building bows to see how they are doing.I am sure they will have even more bows in the next one.
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I would have liked to have known the bow weight and arrow weight. The only numbers I heard were for the ACS 520 gr at 52#. They did a great job, especially testing bows set up for hunting. Those numbers have meaning.
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Molson they were all shot with 10gns at a 28" draw.They were shot with the string setup the owners sent with the bows.
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199fps with 10 grain and 28" for the wippenstick? Could that be true?
13fps faster than the ACS?
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^^^^
Yep
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Sure it was true for the way they were tested.The ACS was set up as the owner hunts with it.String silencers and probably a heavy string.I think all the bows were shot just as the owners sent them in.
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I think if ACS sent a bow to the speed test it would be faster than that ACS.
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Ken's bows are the fastest on the planet right now. The guys participating in this event are right on the cutting edge of custom bow performance.
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I must have missed the 10 gpp @28 part. Wasn't sure because they mentioned some set up for flight shooting and some set up for hunting. Those are all very good to exceptional speeds. I thought the ACS set up for hunting and shooting in the upper 180's was pretty impressive.
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does Ken sell his bows? do the wippensticks have a website?
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"Ken's bows are the fastest on the planet right now."
Might be but they left a lot of variables open to question and none have handed one to an independant tester like Blacky or Norb. One cardinal sin is you never test bows in that way with fletched arrows. Brace heights?? Nock fit? Hard to tell from the video but it looks like Ken's bow had at least 1" if not more lower brace height. I'm sure it was fun but a long way from a controled fair test....O.L.
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Well if a guy sets up a bow to shoot the way he wants and sends it in the way he shoots it he gets the numbers as he uses the bow.Sure it is not apples to apples in every respect but it is after all just a way to see what there bow is doing.I see people take very fast bows and do all sorts of things to make them slower.From what I can see this one not one of those test where you shoot a bow at two inches less braceheight than the bow will shoot well at to get numbers.It was shot with the setup the bowyer or owner liked to use for the bow.If anything the numbers are more real that way for practical purposes.If a guy shoots his bow at an 8" braceheight and two sets of silencers wants to see how his bow performs taking silencers off and dropping to a 6" brace height or changing strings tells him nothing about how he uses the bow. jmo
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Well look at all the people talking about the fast speeds - on a bow set up by the bow maker for speed obviously.
These numbers seem artificially impressive because the same tests were done on well known bows - but they were not set up for speed.
Additionally as OL noted we have no idea hows consistent the knocks were since they werent even mentioned.
I can definitely see why reasonable people dismiss the tests as being useful.
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I can definitely see why reasonable people dismiss the tests as being useful
Well I think it is usefull to the person that sent in his bow to be tested.He knows how his bow set up the way he uses it and stands up against a few others.Now I agree if someone is wanting to look at a list to buy a bow that is a few fps faster than another it might not be the list to look at.But this testing was for guys to see what THERE bows were doing.If you want different numbers just look at Blacky's test in TBM if you want to.From what I remember (don't take it any more) most everything he has tested has been so close a few grains of arrow weight will make them all shoot the same. lol
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All those bows were shooting 10 grains per pound at 28 inches of draw? That takes some effort just to set up that many different bows to compare like that! If that's the case I'm impressed at their effort!
I thought it was a nice video. There were some nice numbers posted. Not real impressive numbers but good numbers none the less. Good stuff, I'm looking forward to seeing what happens at their 2009 event.
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Well thats kind of my point. The video presents itself as a comparison that the viewers can learn something from.
But mostly all they learn is how a particular bow shot - but they dont even learn how it was set up.
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Well I was very impressed by some of the numbers myself. ;) What impressed me the most were not the fastest numbers but those that Badgers all wood bows shot.Way faster than any I have ever seen.Would love to see how one would shoot after being hunted with a while and really shot in.
Guys anyone can send in a bow.You can set it up any way you want and tell them what braceheight to shoot it at.You furnish the string and it will get shot with a 10gn/lb arrow at 28".If you don't agree with the way a certain bow was tested send in one set exacly the way you want it.Pretty simple really. ;)
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I will add that it's an open invite to any and all bowyers. I think many of the bows are overbuilt for very good reason. They are sold to the public! There is a distinction made between the bow sold to the public and one built just for a speed test. That redlined bow may not last through the testing event. There are tons of very fast bows that are built to hunt, and Ken's bows are some of the best. Unfortunately, many big name bowyers won't send in a sample to get beaten by a relatively obscure bowyer.
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James, "From what I remember (don't take it any more) most everything he has tested has been so close a few grains of arrow weight will make them all shoot the same. lol"...Only about 20% difference! :)
Apex, "Unfortunately, many big name bowyers won't send in a sample to get beaten by a relatively obscure bowyer."
Many won't send bows to folks with agendas and not holding a fair test either. It either needs to be casual as it was and therefore limited value or tow the line consistant paying attention to every detail.....O.L.
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Seems like a very useful test to me. Like James said it gives you real world numbers on bows that are set up to shoot in the real world.
No one will ever do a test to "prove" which bow is fastest because no matter how much effort they put into making all variables the same, those whose bow did not win will always find plenty of faults/reasons why there bow didn't win.
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More info that was copy from the other web site "Jipp, the bow I shot was boo backed osage r/d.
Just a note, all the bows that came in without a specified brace height were set up at 6-6 1/4.
Ken and I retested his fast bow with a hunting set up using 16 strand fastflight, flemish twist, with silencers and a 7" brace height, this was moved up from 6 3/8". The new test under the hunting conditions set up gave us a still impressive 192 fps. many of the bows sent in had between 12 and 16 strand strings. Just something to think about, when the next test comes aound you may want to send two strings and we could test both ways, hunting and performance. getting ready to pack up and go home and cannot stress how much I appreciated Ken and his wife Lynn's hospitality. Stevebadger5149"
Posts: 234
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:36 pm
I would like to see an "apple to apple" comparision of some of the well known bow, by the way i shoot a BW and I'm pleased with it but those seem to be great # at 10 gpi.
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Well just reading a couple particular responses in this thread you can see the potential for misinformation, from people who dont grasp the nuances of bow speed trying, as they interpret the results.
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Good stuff.........I like the fact that yall shot real arrows. good luck mark
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Pseman, "No one will ever do a test to "prove" which bow is fastest because no matter how much effort they put into making all variables the same, those whose bow did not win will always find plenty of faults/reasons why there bow didn't win."
Oh sure, just like the losers at the track but at least they were on the same track! :) That wasn't one of "my" bows by the way, that was an A&H.
So, all you guys that poopoo these tests..They are nothing more then bragging rights. Like someone killing a state or world record buck...I sure wouldn't dismiss their accomplishment or their right to thump their chest a bit..Unless they were making such claims after it was measured by Bubba and they won't hand it to Pope and Young. Fast bows to a bowyer that cares about such things is like monster bucks to us hunters. All good even if they are close. I'm just glad to see recurves taking their rightful back seats! :) Lancaster Archery and Blackey did a bunch of tests last weekend and the fastest bow there was 202 @ 28" @ 9gpp and it was a longbow too. Not one of mine....O.L.
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Many won't send bows to folks with agendas and not holding a fair tests either. It either needs to be casual as it was and therefore limited value or tow the line consistant paying attention to every detail.....O.L.
Well I agree but from what I have read and seen this is just casual as you say.Many people don't have cronys or a shooting rig and this is a way for them to see what there bows will shoot.Most guys don't have $700 or whatever Norm might charge to test a bow.This is a way for the small time guys that build a few bows to check there progress without emptying there wallet.I don't see the harm in it a bit myself.Not sure why some want to read more into things than are there.It is just a fun way to play with bows.
I have no dog in this fight.I have the tools to test anything I want and don't build bows to sell.I have no need to send in a bow because I know I shoot the bows I like and a few numbers mean little to me or matter little for what I use a bow for. ;) I am not sure how anything care be more fair than having a bow tested exactly like you would use the bow myself.Beats the devil out of putting out IBO numbers for most guys to try and understand.
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Hey James I like IBO numbers! :) "Most guys don't have $700 or whatever Norm might charge to test a bow." He charges a "bow" so what's the cost of materials? Not much more then a chrony.....Blacky buys the bow for 1/2 price so that more then covers materials......O.L.
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lol I like IBO numbers too but know how to read something from them instead of a big number. ;)
About all I build now is just playing with all wood bows trying to learn something.I would hate for someone to see the numbers on mine however. :scared: :) Of course they still work for what I need one for.I guess that is why Badger's bows impress me so much more than the others in that test.It really is just all in fun for most of us.
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"It really is just all in fun for most of us." Me too, but the sanctioned races are the only ones that count! A few guys running cars in the back 40 can't claim world speed records. :) ...O.L.
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I agree with that.
None of those bows would shoot those numbers in a test like Lancaster did because of the way the limbs never stopped before release.All the numbers would be lower.
Personally if I sold bows and was able to build what was considered a fast bow I would send one straight to Norm myself no matter the cost.The documatation would pay for itself real quick in bow sells.As you say I would put it on the right track if I wanted to make the claims based on speed numbers. jmho
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It's all good guys!
O.L., I'm not discrediting anything you have accomplished. I have tons of respect for you and agree with 99.9% of what you have written. You set the bar in performance buddy, quite a few years ago. We are fellow Chiefs, and that means something to me.
I think it's awesome that WTT exists, and I expect quite a few more entries this year. Maybe one day I will have a speed bow to send, but right now I like them like they are. :)
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" Many won't send bows to folks with agendas and not holding a fair tests either."
OL, what agendas did these guys have? Are Blacky and Norm the only ones without agendas? If they did have an agenda, what is it?
"That wasn't one of "my" bows by the way, that was an A&H."
Never said it was, and you aren't the only one crying foul. I just don't understand why there is this "agenda phobia". It seems like every time someone posts chrony numbers from a particular bow, some folks can't type fast enough to discount the tests as "irrelevent" or "dishonest". I wonder if some of those folks aren't the ones with agendas.
All this bickering over a few fps
:rolleyes:
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I can definitely see why reasonable people dismiss the tests as being useful.
X2
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Mark, I didn't say they did but could have for all I know. Those with resume's like Blacky or Norb would be out of the game in a heartbeat if they did. Many of the numbers you see from folks, they may well be good intentioned but they don't have the experience or knowledge to know what a fair test is, therefore can't conduct one. Many quote numbers that would take good compounds to accomplish. Calling them on it makes them do their homework and learn how to do it correctly.
"All this bickering over a few fps"...Never been around fisherman much have you? :) Tournaments only use one scale and the participants aren't allowed to touch it for a reason. I'm not crying foul, I'd love for those numbers on Ken's bow to be valid, and they may well be. If so it's about a 212 AMO bow and has more energy storage and efficiency then any ever tested. Striving to find what's possible is part of it...O.L.
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I really enjoyed the test. The discussion here is also very interesting. Did someone state that the deal with Blacky is 1/2 off the bow price? If so, thats not the same deal that I am getting from him, although I consider it fair anyway.
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Mike, That was some years ago, he may have changed..O.L.
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Striving to find what's possible [/QB]
Thats what WTT is striving to do. This year all bow strings will be made by one person for all bows. The brace height will be the same for all bows in each class and the 10gr pp will the standard for testing.These guys are trying to be as objective as humanly possible. They welcome suggestions so if anyone has any that can make a difference let them know
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I build selfbows some bows that I build the owners want to know the fps.But there's a few things I do first.First after I tiller the bow.I shoot it for around two weeks for two reasons.Too touch up the tiller if I need to and by then it settled into it's set some people call this string follow.
By now I've already fine tuned the brace hieght and have the right arrow spline and what I think the right hunting weight arrow should be also even type of string number of strands even the kind of nocks.
Now I'll check the arrow speed,right off the bow and at 20 yards if they would like it.
With new LAM bows you may even want to shoot it a little to it settles into is find'll weight.Thats getting use to being bent for you none bow building #@$%#%@'s.SYKE
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I haven't seen the video yet, still downloading it to my computer instead of streaming it. However from the comments I have a pretty good idea what is in it.
While it might not be a "fair" test to use to compare speed capabilities of various bows, it is a fair test to let me compare my bow and setup with others.
(I have a chronograph from my competitive shooting days that I used to work up loads. The numbers I got from it compared very well with the ones I would shoot over at the competitions so I think it is fairly accurate.)
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Well I watched the video and it was about as expected. It shows my Hatfield shots on par with the tested bows. A bit slower than the average but then I was shooting a standard B50 string with silencers and finger release. Of course speed isn't everything, not by a long shot.
One thing that would have been more interesting, as I think was mentioned, would have been to use the same bow with different configurations. I would have specially been interested to see what the difference would have been between a bow with quiver and sans the quiver.
When the weather improves a bit I think I'll set my chrono up and see what I get.
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You know, the Walk the Talk "competition" was conceived for all the "garage builders" out there to have a place to get together, show off their designs, test them against one another in as level a playing field as they could get and share information about building bows.
Are there some bragging rights amoung the contestants? Sure there are. Some good natured ribbing? LOADS of it! At the end of the day though, this test is about sharing information.
Come check out the Bowyers Gallery on the WTT home site and you will find that it is populated by a large group of highly talented bowyers all sharing info with each other for the benefit of all. Nothing more, nothing less.
I participated in the LAS test last weekend and shot that longbow you are talking about OL. I think it actually clocked 207fps. It was very well mannered and seemed reasonably quiet. It had a TINY string on it.
We did a LOT of shooting and took a lot of video of pretty much everything you could think of. I am anxious to get the CD of the compiled info. For me, it has presented me with as many new questions as it answered old questions. I am certain there will be more testing in the future.
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Jaeger, Was just quoting what Rob told me. Sounds like you guys did some good stuff. The skinny strings being quieter then fat strings confirms what many others have seen and quiet opposite from 90% of the advice we see! :) The answer to all questions is knowing what questions to ask! :) ....O.L.
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I'm sorry, I missed the original question. Could someone start over? :saywhat: :rolleyes:
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I enjoyed the video for its entertainment value. I would have liked to have seen more bows tested that are regularly shot and traded by those of us on TradGang, but I know that was not the purpose of the event. Besides my ACS (an A&H model, NOT O.L.'s ;) ) , I have never shot any bows made by the other bowyers at WTT, nor have I ever shot the Trad Tech, so it is harder for me to make a comparison when there was not a baseline of various bows that are part of my experience. I like my ACS quite a lot, but it does not seem to me to be dramatically faster than some of my other fast bows. I'm sure the meeting of those bowyers at WTT was a lot of fun for them. That would nice to experience if I were building bows in my shop, and I liked seeing the enthusiasm they were showing. I don't try to attach more to the event than the fun time and learning experience it was intended to be. It reminds me a lot of when my son was in Cub Scouts and everyone built a little "toy" racer and then competed against one another. That was fun and educational for those involved.
Allan
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Hi guys,
Just clearing up a few things here for those concerned. Last years event was more geared towords finding a winner than it was to reflect an actual "bow test", But still wanted to bring it to you in a fashion that could be compared to what Norb and Blacky do in their tests. This year will be totally different. This year each bow will be tested at the exact same brace and with strings that are built of same material and strand count. Even the nock fit will be watched very carefully!!
As for their being an "agenda on my part being the host of the event??? I just had to laugh out loud at that one. I never once put a link to the event in my website (which was just started the first of this year) and never used it as selling point for anything I build for the public.I dont ever use any claims of speed to promote anything I build. The fast bow I built for WTT II was just an experiment, thats all, as were most of the bows in WTT II. We only used a few factory built bows to gage off of.
With a full year to prepair for WTT III the scrutinizers of the event have had more than ample time to get something ready to send in and are very welcomed to do so.
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Welcome aboard Ken :campfire: ! Looking forward to your input!
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I heard a rumor that Ken might be coming to Baltimore this year. I for one look forward to trying out a Whippen Stick in person!! Shoot OL, I'd look forward to trying one of your bows as well!
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Ken
Arent various bows designed to work with different brace heights?
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Ken, I watched the video from beginning to end, this is coming from a guy (me) who has mostly shot hunting self bows and longbows my entire adult life which most here would think of as slugs:) I don't give much thought to bow speed.
That said, the entire concept of a group of "garage builders" having a yearly summit to showcase tackle and compare notes is brilliant. I see nothing but good from such a think tank:) The archery golf alone has me wanting to go out and whittle a stickbow so I can join the fun next year.
Best of Luck!
Daddy Bear
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tHATS A BUNCH OF FOOTBALL ABUSE.
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Ken, what is your website address? great video!
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http://www.whippenstick.com/
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I always heard my Grizzly Bow should shoot fast, but after reading this thread I’m thinking it shoots “wicked fast!” I shot ten arrows, witnessed by one other person, through the chronograph and came up with these results: 205, 209, 209, 205, 208, 206, 204, 205, 209, 210 feet per second (pic is below). This was done drawing the 45# bow to the proper length, as marked on the arrow, with a 403 grain arrow, shot from 3 feet in front of the chronograph. That’s an average of 207 fps with an arrow that goes 9 grains per pound of draw weight. Sounds pretty solid to me! Thoughts?
I’ll try to put together a 10 gr/lb arrow and redo the test. Just can’t find the right points...
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa42/Grizzlybowscommon/grizzlybow.jpg)
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I thought WTT was way cool Ken! Made me start wearin a patch over one eye! ;)
Mike, you should send that one to WTT, there is still time.
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M venator,
Thats a smokin number!! Id be stoked with that!! great bow. Id say that ones a keeper fer sure.
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My question is, why is the speed so important to begin with?
It seems like accuracy and a smooth-shooting bow should be much more important.
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ALL things being equal... the faster the better for accuracy, penetration on game... all things being equal mind you. Im not saying sacrifice quiet for it or forgiveness or hand shock or any other thing that contributes to a "sweet" shooter.
The guys that are doing Walk The Talk can all build an easy shooting bow, no problem. But coming up with a design thats better than your previous effort is what its all about. And sharing the info with your fellow bowyer is at the heart of it all. The speed part is just the aspect everyone seems to be stuck on. I guess the need for speed has always add some romance to a subject.
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Autobows & TNstickn,
Both your statements are spot on and are exactly how I feel. I wont give up having a solid safe strong and lasting bow for any amount of speed. If I can get some speed along with these qualities I'll take it, who wouldnt? All the event is is a reunion for hobbiest bow builders that throw in performance as a fun competition aspect of it all. and some good old fasioned ribbing among buddies.
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Ken,
Thanks for hosting the WTT event and producing the video. I really enjoyed watching it and learned something too. There were some really nice bows on there. It amazes me how close some of the stick bows come to matching the performance of a compound bow. Of course, with compounds they are shooting arrows of around 5 grains per pound to get speeds approaching 300 fps. I'm not sure what speeds those same wheel bows would shoot using 10 grains per pound like you were using, but I doubt they would beat your bow by large margins. I am with Fred Eichler when he says he doesn't hunt with a trad bow because it is more difficult, he hunts with it because it is the most efficient hunting tool under the conditions where he is using it. Firearms hunters can't hunt most of the times when we can, and compound hunters have to deal with slow draws, heavy bows, complex mechanisms, loads of extra equipment, and mechanical issues. Development of trad bows to advance the efficiency of our chosen hunting tools is a great goal that you and the others participating in WTT are pursuing.
Thanks,
Allan
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Thanks gents...good to hear it was a great buy ($500). Now if only I could convince my wife of that!
I agree that speed is not everything. Or, really, even the most importantly thing. Like many, I'm sure, I grew up shooting a compound. Now I shoot only a longbow for love of the sport, not simply killing animals or winning trophies (done plenty of both...with and without the longbow). In fact, converted partly because of all the chatter around bow speed, pin gap, etc. I just want to hunt and enjoy the outdoors. Not feel like I have to spend another grand to get the latest set-up. The bow doesn’t make the hunter. Time, experience, dedication and love for the outdoors do. Just my opinion though.
This bow sits nice in my hand with very little shock...and still spits arrows out at over 200 fps. I've taken black bear, elk, mule deer and javelina with my Grizzly Bow and I'm happy as can be. I use it – abuse it, and it keeps shooting solid.
All that said, it sure is nice to know I have some bragging rights when it comes to speed at the next club shoot!
Thanks again for the responses…
-MV
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I am a hobby builder who submitted a couple of recurves and longbows last year and attended the WTT event. You are correct in thinking it was a gathering of garage ninnies for fun, competition and learning. OL you really should submit a bow for the competition and consider appearing at the event. It doesn't have to be one of your stock bows...lol. The invitation is open, so anyone with doubts or criticisms should submit their bow. Anyone can "talk the talk" but you have to submit a bow to "walk the talk"! Jim
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Mike-
That's a quick bow. My GrizzlyBow takedown longbow is almost as quick... but I shoot big heavy arrows in the 12-13 gpp range. Slows it considerably, but still in the 180s. You don't see a lot of other longbows (or recurves even) keeping up. Would like to see the 10 gpp numbers on your bow... Do you know if Blacky Schwarz going to do a full review of a GrizzlyBow for TG?
-Vig
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Jim, I'd love to come if I could but just isn't in the cards. I have little spare time so I have to prioritize. As far as just sending a bow, I'd like to see things more standarized, and if I did, it wouldn't be a "special" or hand picked bow. None of the Mulaney tests were either. But I don't have anything to prove as long as the fastest bow Norb has tested is below 211 and 18 or 20 distance records for the bows hold....O.L.
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We have a hot rod class..just for fun OL... its not something to "bolster" our sales or egos..as much as its just pure fun... If you were to "hot rod" a bow..and it shot...say...215 with 10 gpp!! with a skinny string and 6" brace... wouldn't it be "fun"?
Anyhow..I think the whole thing is great fun. I am comfortable with what I build and am trying to squeeze a few more FPS into a solid design...
I too wish I could make it up there...but wont be..not this year.
E
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You guys want to test a true "flight" bow? Probably require anyone within 30' to wear goggles and a cup! :) You could ring up some numbers to make the compounds cring but not at 10gpp, 1.5-2 maybe.....O.L.
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Id love it if we had flite shooting in the area but its just not something very common around here.Id have to buy and learn how to set up some "real" flite arrows to be able to compete. Not having just the right arrows could leave a good bow looking bad and I guess could also be said for the other way around. In light of that being said, flight shooting under competition has quite a few "variables", doesnt it?
As for WTT III being more "standardized", all bows will use the exact same style and strand count of string. we will be using the same uni nock in all of the arrows and were riging up a way to measure nock fit to string.(probably with a trigger scale)and all bows in the event will be shot with a 6 3/4" brace this year, no ifs, ands or butts. Im open to and welcome any other suggestions in "standardizing" that anyone may offer.
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in my opinion wtt1,2,3 is a great way for a guy to get an idea of what is available and what is duable in the world of stickbows without buying every bow out there to try. i own alot of fast bows and along with those i have ken's first takedown longbow. it is truly faster than anything i got or have shot in the past. i have had to reprogram myself cause i was shooting over everything i shot at. noise, handshock are nonexistant. shot repetability is excelent. definatly the best bow i have shot to date.
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Ken, "all bows will use the exact same style and strand count of string."
And all the bows are going to be the same draw weight or are some going to be 40# and others 60?
This is part of consistancy and standardization, shooting the same strand count on a 50#er as you do a 60#er isn't standardized and unfairly handicaps the lighter bows. This is the same as shooting the heavy bows at 10gpp and the lighter bows at 11 as an example...
"and all bows in the event will be shot with a 6 3/4" brace this year, no ifs, ands or butts."
This is a tough one..."longbows" in general will shoot well at lower brace heights then recurves will. Folks seem to like bows being tested as close to real world as possible. So shooting all bows at the same brace height benefits recurves artificially. 6 3/4" is a good number for longbows as most are going to shoot well between 6 1/2" to 7" so that's a good "middle" compromise. Recurves "on average" in the real world will be shot at a higher brace height more in line with 7 3/4" to 8 1/4+".....Norb looks at the manufactures recommendations and sets them at the lower end of that range. That could be fudged by telling him an unrealisticly low range but after testing a few thousand bows he'd notice and question such numbers along with the sloppy shooting that comes with it.
What we/I do if testing bow "a" against bow "b", if it's a longbow we set brace height at 7" and recurves at 8". The actual number doesn't matter as it's all relative, point is setting recurves and longbows the same isn't realistic or fair. A 1" split would be closer to middle ground averages.
Arrow nock fit, I've seen extreme cases on lighter bows where nock fit robbed 10fps. So if the goal to test the "bows", even 1 fps due to nock fit is unacceptable. If you do/could measure nock release tension with a trigger scale, it's too tight. 2# of nock release pull on a 60# bow is less percentage wise then it is on a 50#..Make them falling off loose.
Arrows.....Since it would be impossible to idealy "tune" the arrows to the bow, they should be bare shaft...Once we were testing a bow and it was reading 5-6fps lower then it should have. Someone noticed the shelf rug was getting tore up. Due to poor tuning and or a high quill, it was catching on the shelf/rug. Stripped the feathers, boom, 5 fps right there. The only time arrow tuning bothers the numbers is when the arrows are way too stiff or way too weak to the point they hit the riser. So bare shafts minimize that problem. Also, what if someone handed you a bow with an elevated rest while all others are shooting off the shelf? Elevated rests will average higher speeds then off the shelf will. In the flight shooting, you can take any given bow and do the best you can off the shelf, then turn around and set it up to the best you can get off an elevated rest, the elevated rest will shoot 100+ yards further..All from the same bow.
Still with arrows....Are some arrows going to be camo, others black, others with crown dips or wraps? Chronos are photo triggered and the sensors can "see" some colors under some light conditions better then others therfore will "trigger" differently. All arrows should be identical in color including tips and nocks. More then 1 fps difference in a several shot string indicates something isn't consistant.
From the video I couldn't tell how draw length was being controled? The quick draw/release doesn't give one faith in it's accuracy...Draw and hold for a second or two. A ratcheting type drawing device to a hard stop with a reach over push of a button would at least look more controled.
Any one of these "details" in and of themselves may not be big number wise, some more so then others. The combination of paying attention to detail of several can add up to 10+fps pretty quick. These are details those in the business of testing bows are aware of, the average Joe is not. It's not they/we don't want to do a good fair job, we just don't have the experience and knowledge to know any better. Just some ideas to chew on....O.L.
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Joe, that's a good point..The slow bow crowd start throwing around "accuracy", "stability", shooting quality arguements as if high performance bows suffer in these areas..I've never found that to be true..The higher they perform, the better they are all the way around. Not that someone can't do something to the best FITA recurve and screw it up, they can but it's not the bows fault nor is it "performance" related....O.L.
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Great post OL on paying attention to the little things!Most don't realize how all the little things can add up.The little things are what allows me to hunt with lighter bows and still use big broadheads without worrys. ;)
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Absolutly James, archery is nothing but a whole bunch of little details strung together, no pun intended! :) ...The priorities on those details depends on the job you are trying to do and the results you are looking for. The more we know about those details, the better we can prioritize what is important for the task at hand. If someone wants to ignore some of the details and shoot 10 more pounds to make up for, go for it! :) ....O.L.
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O.L.
I totally agree with you on the string weight to bows pull weight and those percentage numbers and have thought about that for quite some time but in the reality of things we cant control EVERYTHING. No matter what we or anyone does there will always be the "grasping for straws" variable in which one bow didnt get a certain advantage that the other might have built into it.I will say that I havnt noticed quite the extreams in varience that you mentioned in your post though. and the triggering mechanism on last years rig and the same with this years machine trip at the same instant by a trigger that is tripped by a solid and stationary bar. so I dont quite see how it can be different between being triggered as its moving slowly backwards or if its held. they still trip at the exact same spot. ??I actually went down stairs and tried this a few minutes ago and got the exact same reading.
We are doing everything we possibly can to make it equal. but no matter what, nothing will be "perfect" But then again same could be said for Norb and Blackys tests too. They dont test 10 20 or 30 bows in comparison fashion on the same day. and taking off the feathers???? I think more guys might want to know what the bows performance is "with" the feathers vs without.I think keeping it more "real world" might make it more valid and interesting to the hunter minded people.(but I can go ask and am open to changing it if everyone else is game) I guess we just arent interested in catering to the scientists in lab coats yet. but stay tuned, that may change.
Look,...this isnt an event in which to promote any sales for ANYONE and I know some may get the wrong impression based on the fact that we bring it out to the public in video form and show the bows in action. its mearly entertainment value at best for like minded hobbiests type builders, and the results are only going to be valid to those interested in the way "we" test, thats all. We cant help if people interpret it differently and cant help what they say. but no one is putting any words in any mouths.
Thanks again for the input and it is all taken into serious consideration to evolve the event and to seek validation by the majority.
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Kem, "No matter what we or anyone does there will always be the "grasping for straws" variable in which one bow didnt get a certain advantage that the other might have built into it.
Sure, that's why it takes Norb a day or more per bow and get 28 pages worth of evaluation and data, per bow. Doing only one gpp arrow reduces the time a lot but is still significant.
"and the triggering mechanism on last years rig and the same with this years machine trip at the same instant by a trigger that is tripped by a solid and stationary bar."
It might be just fine, I said I couldn't "see" what it was doing.
"and taking off the feathers???? I think more guys might want to know what the bows performance is "with" the feathers vs without."
There you go...You are letting a variable other then "the bow" into the mix.
"its mearly entertainment value at best for like minded hobbiests type builders, and the results are only going to be valid to those interested in the way "we" test, thats all. We cant help if people interpret it differently and cant help what they say."
Nothing wrong with that if that's the way they want it. Personally, "to play" I want things more formal only because I've seen too much shenanigins over the years. Not saying that would/does happen, I just don't know. Some are taking it way too serious for it to be just entertainment....O.L.
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I agree, many are indeed taking it to seriously. as if what we are doing hurts them or something or is puting their reputation is at stake. nothing could be further from the intended path of this event. at least not from my perspective and as long as Im elected to host it the "shenanigins" DONT GET PLAYED! Thats why I prefer all the witnesses and competitors of each other to be in the same room and all have a hand in weighing and participating in that aspect of the event. and this year there will be more hands on between competitors. for however "informal" this event is, its still very importaint to me that we have a fair fight.
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Ken, O.L., between you two I've actually learned something about bow testing...I dont know squat!!! :eek: I appreciate the time you guys take out to educate the goofballs like myself who completely "nerd out" over every aspect of bow building. Keep it goin guys, It will only benifit us all when trying to interpret bow performance. I thought I was doing something, markin 28" on my arrow and lettin it fly through the chrony!! :biglaugh:
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TN,
Measureing that way is just fine if you watch it as closley as possible. you can actually get some very consistent numbers that way too. your results may very slightly more,,, but so what? Youre still getting to know what you need to know. just run a few more arrows than usual and get a good average.
I myself just came in from testing a few different bows (actually arrows) using a few of the above suggestions to see how much variences there were between bare shaft vs fletched. you could say I learned something today too. ;)
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Well, all I know is all but one of them ( a left hand selfbow) are a pretty good bit faster than every bow I own, and I own a few of them. I seem to put meat in the freezer anyway.
Bisch
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I think that the slowest bow was 146FPS and the rest pretty much grouped between 175 and 189. Seems like those speeds are fine enough for anyone to put meat on the table. Of course, smoothness of draw and other factors dictate why some of us like one bow and others like another one.
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O L, I like your reasoning about building a fast bow without compromising accuracy or causing any more handshock. You hit the proverbial nail on the head, my fastest have been the most dependable, smoothest shooting, and hit where you are looking! Do you need a slower bow to achieve all of this? Absolutely and Undeniably NOT! Ken, Just let me know when, where, and how many to bring!
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Vig –
Sorry, I missed a couple days and…from the looks of it…a lot of discussion. All healthy and interesting guys!
Don’t know about the Blacky test for sure, but I hope so! Looks like Grizz is going to participate in the WTT though, so it should be interesting.
As I see it, traditional gear…longbows in particular…are like cars and women. Some like them fast and some like them slow, but at the end of the day we all want ours to look good and perform just the way we like!
-MV
:D
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Good posts ya'll...
As Ken said... for most of us..this is about entertainment and development of our bows...I am so excited to see how guys do this year. most the guys I'm excited about are just hobby builders... and they are kicking rear and taking names... Good stuff....
E