Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: AlanF on April 26, 2009, 09:37:00 PM
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What makes a bow more forgiving or less forgiving. Or perhaps I should ask what characteristics should I be looking for in order to find a forgiving bow? Thanks,
Alan
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If someone clearly defines "forgiveness" I would love to see controlled test that demonstrates how it varies between 2 bows.
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A "LONG" bow is generally more forgiving than a "short" bow... all else being equal... A bow with "just the right grip" Or... lack of grip... will be more forgiving than another "all else being equal"...
That about sums it up.... for a bow to "shoot good" and "be forgiving"... its got to be built right... limbs timed nicely, tiller set about right, string angle at full draw not more than 90 degrees....
Etc...etc...
E
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Alan,
The longer the bow and the greater the brace height, the more stable the bow. This platform causes minor mistakes to be less magnified than those made with shorter bows.
With a higher brace height, the arrow released sooner ( say at 8" brace height ) instead of traveling longer on the power stroke of a shorter bow with a shorter brace height ( say 6 1/2" brace height).
Don't know if this helps.
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Bow tune is what will make a Bow more forgiveing First pick one with at least a 58" nock to nock ,,also get a fairly small grip and bare shaft that bow for good arrow flight the better the tune the more forgiveing it will be,, oh yea dont forget to have fun! :knothead:
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I´ve heard that a longbow with stringfollow is the most forgiving to shoot.
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I think a bow where it's limbs are hard to twist is more forgiving of release errors-the primary use of carbon in a bow methinks.
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A bow that moves very little during the release of an arrow.
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Mine has to forgive me every day. For all the flubbed shots I make! :smileystooges:
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How about a forward handle, or does it matter?
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Originally posted by AlanF:
What makes a bow more forgiving or less forgiving.
Depends on how much it cost has a direct correlation to how "forgiving" my wife has been!
As for the shootability…well that up for debate.
Josh
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Back before compounds we talked a lot about "forgiving" bows. There were definitely bows that were very easy to shoot poorly....make a small shooting error, bad release, etc. and you would miss by a lot. A forgiving bow was a bow that was more tolerant of shooting errors and still shot the arrow very well. I don't know all the physics of bow limb construction and what variables make a bow limb more forgiving but a few things were obvious to most of us back then. One was bow mass....the heavier the bow (phyical weight) the better it seemed to shoot. Wider limbs seemed to be more stable. Nowadays, I suspect torsional stability would be the key words to describe that aspect. Longer bow seemed to be easier to shoot and more tolerant of shooting errors. Elevated rests and some sort of cushioned plunger or side plate made a big difference for many shooters. In a nutshell, a forgiving bow simply was more tolerant of shooting errors on the part of the archer. Bows that were not like that were considered to be "sensitive" bows and required precise shooting skills and were generally "high maintenance" where a small error in bow set up (brace height, nocking point) would magnify themselves in more dramatic arrow flight problems than a more "forgiving" bow.
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Take "almost" anything that makes a bow faster and go the opposite direction for forgiveness.
Doesn't apply to handshock, but just about all of the rest (arrow mass, degree of setback, brace height, etc) apply.
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IMHO a bow is not forgiving, it is well designed. You can make a slow bow hard too shoot if you mess up.
Every bow starts with the grip and works out from there in design. If the grip fit correctly and puts your hand and wrist in a comfortable position, your bow will point and follow through.
Now add limbs to get performance. Limbs with short working areas tend to be more twitchy and more difficult to be consistant with, longer working limbs are smoother and easier to draw. This allows for an easier bow too shoot.
Well there you have my opinion for what it's worth.
Mike
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Mike...in reality it is a design word. Folks need to learn this word's meaning as it applies to bows in general, so the term "forgiving bow" is a good moniker. It is a product of overall design.
I can give you an old example. I had a Bear HC300 that was a very fast shooter, but tended to be jumpy in my hand, even with stabilizers. I went to the same weight Hoyt ProMedalist, and found a bow that was much friendlier to shoot...more forgiving, if you will, of slight errors in form. The nature of that bow made my scores climb significantly.
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Here is my favorite bow, and my oldest. Its about 20 years old now. This bow definitely is "forgiving' , especially with the 650gr arrows that I put through it. It is 64" long, has just slight reflex, has wide, stable limbs, mass forward riser. I shoot B-50 strings on it. Its slow, absolutely dead in the hand, unbelievably quite, and it is very "forgiving". (ie. if I have a bad release, etc. the arrows still tend to go where I want them). I've shot alot of the shorter, more radical R/D longbows over the years, but I always come back to this old bow :-)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d92/Titan_Bow/DSC01458.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d92/Titan_Bow/DSC01457.jpg)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d92/Titan_Bow/DSC01454.jpg)
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I was in a December hunt for muledeer with a friend that shot a P&Y mulie with his Bear Kodiak. It was my turn to drag the deer; and the antler popped off its head.
That Kodiak was not forgiving at all; even though admittedly: my buddy was the one hitting me with it. :knothead:
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For whatever it's worth, I've seen a couple of live Byron Ferguson exhibition shoots, and a segment about him, including an interview, on tv; and he has consistently said that a longbow is more forgiving than a recurve, which is why he shoots one. I'm sure he must have a website, and on it, there's probably a way to contact him. I bet he'd answer you if you asked.
I'm not denying you can get good advice here at Trad Gang; shucks, a lot of these people have been shooting a long time, and know whereof they speak. You made a wise move in seeking advice here. But Ferguson makes amazing shots consistently for a living. He's top of the heap. In addition to the advice you get here, I'd also consult anything he has to say on the subject. I don't know for sure, but I bet he's got a book or two on the shelves at the major bookstores.
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If I am getting someone started in trad I like to get them in a longer bow. In a recurve I'll recommend 60-64" and longbow 62-66". I dont think the longbow is any easier to shoot than a recurve nor the opposite. I went through a ton of bows before I found exactly what I like. I have 2 now that I know will work for me. I think forgiveness in a bow comes with improvements in shooting skills. I cant say I can shoot any bow but I feel I could grab just about anything out there and shoot it decent. I am convinced that if someone gets a decent bow and shoots it for 2-3 years and nothing else they will definately be ahead of the curve.
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How well the bows is tuned to the arrows is one of the biggest facters in forgiveness.The closer it is tuned to the middle of the spine range a bow will shoot the less variables will effect things on release.Another biggy is the smoothness on the last two inches of draw.You want the bow to be really smooth the last few inches.That will help a lot keeping things more consistant at release.Provided the other things like grip,bow weight,length ect agree with you and the way you shoot those two are the biggies and more important than limb shape,type of bow or anything else. jmho.
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Good reading guys, thanks. Recently sold a 60" 3-piece longbow and while I am waiting on another bow I purchased an older 52" recurve to shoot. I have been surprised how much more difficult it is to shoot with any consistentcy. Perhaps it is telling me I need to work on my release and refine my tunning... Now if I can figure out where to start. Thanks.
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The one that fit's the shooter best, is the one that he will be most consistent with.
If you are constantly having to concentrate too hard on how you are holding the grip, it may not fit you well.
All things being equal, the longer bow will be more consistent.
Just my opinion.
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What makes a bow forgiving? GOOD shooting form. If the shooter has good form, he can shoot any bow well. The bow will always out shoot the shooter. Some bow attributtes may help with flaws in a guy's form, but far to many people look for the magic bow,arrow,glove,string or what ever that will make them shoot better. More often than not if you look at top level shooters, it's not what they shoot, but how they shoot that put's them at the top.
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Maybe the better question is?
What asspect of a bow effects forgiveness the most?
I'm w/ Curveman,
When looking at bows.I'll grab the limbtip and give it a twist.I stay away from NOODLE LIMBS
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Look at olympic bows. They all have a riser set foreward of the limbs. To my knowledger without exception. How many of "our" bows have this design? The only one I can think of is the St. Joe River. It's the most forgiving bow I've ever shot. (I just shoot LB's, maybe a BW recurve has this design?) But I have no way to judge that on paper. I just know that I'll do something bad with my release hand and am amazed when the arrow goes where it was pointed.
I've done some "unscientific tests" of left and right misses with Adcock and Morrison. Then also added in a 3 piece RER LB and SJR to the tests, but don't have as much data as I do for the A and M. It's just a tough thing to measure.
I wish I had a shooting machine that I could build a release that was as wide as three fingers. Now torque that release 2, 5, or 20 degrees until there's a noticeable difference between a torqued shot and a non-torqued shot. Let's say that Bow A is shot with a 15 degree torque and it shoots 2 inches different at 20yds. Bow B the difference is 1 inch at 20. Now we have an AMO standard and let me start selling bow B.
Bowmania
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Odd I didn't see the above picture. It shows what I discribed.
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What bow is that, pictured, above, from Titan_Bow?
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Yes!
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In no particular order:
-Overall length.
-Arrow shelf as close to hand as possilble.
-Mass weight in the riser.
-Deep core, narrow width limbs
-As much working limb as possible.
-Reverse handle. Or any handle that moves the throat of the grip towards or ahead of the back of the limbs.
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I believe a bow that allows a consistant grip will deliver more consistant accurracy thus being more "forgiving".
A bow that has a suitable and comfortable draw weight for the shooter will be more accurate for them thus more " forgiving".
And I also believe a bow that is longer with less finger pinch will be more forgiving.
One thing no one has mentioned is that a "slick" glove or tab will always be more accurate shooting than one you can`t get off the string without miss - aligning the shot.Thus more "forgiving".RC
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I know some oldtime shooters used longbow with stringfollow for shooting moving targets or close exibitition type shooting, they used straight limbed bows or ones with backset for hunting. Said they could by with more on the stringfollow bows.
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what do ppl mean when they say "string follow bows" ??
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when the bow is unstrung the tips would be behind the riser (toward the shooter) as opposed to in front of the riser (away from the shooter)