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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: nightowl1 on May 26, 2009, 12:08:00 AM
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Im getting real close to getting my arrows tuned...(have form issues to work out first) but i was wondering if anyone could summarize would Dr. Ashby found about light weight bows and arrow set ups.
I shoot a 46@27 bow draw about 27 1/4.
If i can stand the trajectory and speed of a 625 grain arrow with 22% FOC would I get a benefit over a 480g 22% arrow?
Where is the diminishing returns?
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As you suggested, the extra weight of the 625 may have a negative effect on your accuracy... or not.
The heavier of the two would tend to penetrate better, but in my mind, it's all a trade off.
Given the choice, I'd take an accurately shot 480 gr. arrow over a not so accurately shot 625 gr. arrow from your 46# bow.
A compromise might be a good idea. Say around 550 gr. of arrow.
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absolutely what charlie just typed.
i'd do some shooting comparisons at the near end of yer normal kill distance comfort zone - see how 480, 550, and 625 compare in terms of accurate consistency - given the fact that the heavier arrow will have more flight arc. a lighter arrow will require less 'gray matter sight' adjustment due to less arc - heavy logs will require more finesse of yer bow hand.
heavy is best, but up to a point .......
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if you make a good shot you will shoot right through a deer or whatever else you want to kill.
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I agree with the above.I will only add that to know for sure you need to do your test shots in varied distance and terrain.
You can shoot your bag at home but you will adjust after the first shot and put the rest where thay need to go.Even if you shoot one shot from different distance it won't give you as good of an idea of accuracy as a 3D round.
You might also take a small target into the woods and shoot several single shots.A large nerf ball with a judo would work well.
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I would definitely use the 480 grn arrow. I shoot a 56# longbow with a 485 grn total arrow wt, it's spined very well & I shoot 200 grn up front. I've shot arrows at 565 grn down to 485 grn out of the same poundage. I see no real benefits to going heavier than needed in real world experience on elk. I've gotten equal amounts of penetration out of the heavier 565gn & the lighter 485grn. The 485 shoots flatter & I've got great head weight for great penetration! Currently my arrows are beman mfx 500 with 75grn insert & 125 heads cut to 27 1/4". This setup will blow through an elk!
Heavy is good in the right bow & situation, yours in my opinion is going the other way if you choose the 625grn arrow, it's not balanced out as well in your setup!
ElkNut1
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Listen to Charley Lamb and elknut1....excellent advice.
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Fifty years ago a man we all love and respect said 10 gpp was 'about right'. Perhaps with modern materials that has grown to 11 gpp, but most would likely shoot 10-11 best. Stick with a 2 blade (scary sharp of course) that will help a lot.
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Well that answers alot. I was just wondering if I could shoot both arrows just as well within my bow range if there would be a big enough benefit with the heavier arrow.
Going with the lighter will be more tolerable outside my bow range( small game and targets) so I'll get these arrows tuned to find my dynamic spine then go shopping for some 35/55 probably
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There will be a measureable penetration benefit from the heavier arrow, in my opinion. There is no way around it. The only question you need to answer is one that only you know the answer to. "Can you live with the more arched trajectory?"
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Most things are relative, and a 480 grain arrow will take care of any game in North America, so I see using it as win/win. Hone your accuracy and don't worry about your arrow weight. You're good.
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Well for deer I consider an arrow over 500gns a waste of trajectory with any weight bow. 500gns is more than enough arrow weight unless you are going to find a buffaloe somewhere. ;)
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The weight versus speed argument has had me scratching my head for decades. I shoot a longbow now; and getting the 'proper' arrow was and is a task.
When I shot a recurve; which was for a couple decades; I remember the chronographs showing up where you could figure speed; and its been off to the races ever since.
I made a game of asking people if my arrow was good for hunting. I shot 31 inches of 2216 shaft; and I would say 'its a 45 pound bow' and people said 'oh yeah thats a fine arrow'; then with the same bow I would ask another person if the arrow was OK for hunting and say it was a '50 pound bow'; and some would shake their heads and say 'no'; and others yes.
Then I got up to the weight at my draw; about 74 pounds; and not one person said that arrow was OK for hunting.
Now I had killed deer and bear and elk with it; having total penetration in most cases; and having a flat trajectory.
If an arrow shoots perfectly straight out of a 45 pound bow; and out of a 74 pound bow - how can the arrow be not appropriate for the 74 pound bow- but 'great' for the 45?
Then too penetration on animals depends not only on shot placement; but if its a two blade; 3 blade; 4 blade etc. And on being sharp enough.
I guess its all good fun... but shooting an arrow accurately and straight (no wobbling or porpoising) -well... that works for bowhunting.
I am now kind of chuckling over the nock weighting systems to make the arrow heavier in the nock end.
All good fun I guess :campfire:
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ha thanks for the post... all in good fun.
My father in law thanks i'm crazy for where my nocking point is and that i shoot cock feather in.
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nightowl, I shoot darn near the same weight and draw as you, and I'd stick with the 480 gr arrow, if I was hunting something big, say elk or moose, then I might go with the heavier arrow, but only if I was sure my shots were going to be under 20 yrds and I'd want them closer to 15...because you will see a big difference in trajectory between those two weights.
larry
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I do not buy into the 625 grain arrow will out penetrate a 480 grain arrow shot out of any bow where the arrow will spine/tune to that particular draw weight bow, it's simply not so & can really confuse honest hearted ones trying to make correct decisions for their particular setups! I've done these tests for myself in the past & is why I shoot what I do.
Just in case I was incorrect I put together a 2018 with a 200 grain tip & it weighed in at 617grains, I then took my MFX Beman with 200 grains up front at 485 grains & shot them at a distance of 15 yds-- 20yds-- 28yds. I shot both arrows 4 times at each distance into a tightly stacked foam target. I know this isn't rocket science but good enough for this elk hunter! (grin) At each of these distances the 485 grn arrow out penetrated the heavier arrow aprox 3" on all 12 shots, not at any shot did the heavier arrow ever equal the "lighter" arrow. These are hunting distances most of us fall into.
Incidentally my "point on" is 30yds with the 485 grn arrow so just for fun I took both arrows & shot them several times. The 617grn arrow dropped between 12"-13" on every shot at that distance.
As I had mentioned previously I will take real world experience over "theory" anyday! With the 485 grn arrow I've killed 2 bull elk, a 5-point & a 6-point, on the 6 point the arrow was sticking out the other side of the animal, both shots were with a 125grn SnufferSS. The 2nd arrow buried to the fletches on a quartering away shot at 26yds into the off shoulder! I would without question choose this same arrow wt. on moose over the heavier arrow. I would consider a much heavier arrow but in a balanced fashion if I were creeping in on the 65# range.
For a 47# bow a 625grn is a huge overkill & will drop like a rock after 20yds. Just my .02
ElkNut1
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i dont really get into the ashby stuff. i shot compounds since i was 7 and always shot very light arrows and the blew through everything and stuck 4 inches into the ground on the other side i think it was just a scheme for money because now everyone is trying to duplicate the ashby specs i had grizzlies and the were alright but they didnt out pentrate any better than any other broadheads i even shot them out of my compound and the arrow was 459 grains and my other was 369 and it was 3 inches deeper in the target i dunno lighter arrows will kill
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I thought I was Out of my mined but I have had the same results as Elknut and i have never been able to get the real heavy arrows to fly as good. the lighter arrows seem to straighten out faster for me. I shot a 5x5 bull last year with a 480 gr.arrow with a 4 blade stinger almost a pass through 54# shawnee dakota.
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Quite bow, Sharp broadhead, and a Patient, and Accurate shot......SUCCESS. Knowing your equipment, abilities, and quarry, means a bunch!
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thanks for all the info guys i was just curious... and trying to get my setup the most efficient i can.. I love this bow and will be taking it all over north america.
Sold all of my other bows and plan on just using this one... so once i get my equipment figured out i just want to stock up and enjoy.
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elknut1 and StickDP, the reason you got better penetration with the lighter arrow probably was because the lighter arrow was better tuned the to the bow than the heavier arrow. The heavier arrow was probably too stiff. With both arrows being properly tuned a heavier arrow will always out penetrate a lighter one. With all that being said, a 500 grain or so arrow is more than heavy enough to shoot through any deer.
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A 2018 and an MFX beman couldn't be more different in diameter. Completely apples to oranges. Arrow diameter has an enormous effect on penetration, especially in a foam target. Go crazy loading up the front end of a stiffer MFX and you'll probably blow through that target.
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What good is more penitration when you will already be shooting through what you are hunting?Sticking in the ground farther is of little help after an arrow passes through.Being able to still hit the kill zone if you misjudge the shot a little does help a lot and it something that is likely to happen every year.
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James...amen brother...shoot what your confident in..
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Spikemaster, both arrows were tuned just fine no issues there. 3 1/2" difference is much more than a slight wobble could ever be blamed for! A heavier arrow will not always out penetrate a lighter arrow when you've gone too far on the heavy end just as if you went way too light the other direction given the draw weight you're dealing with or comparing too.
In this case a 45#-50# draw. The ultimate in trajectory & penetration will be had in a 475grn-525grn arrow at the heaviest, after that or before that & you will lack penetration, period! Don't take my word for it, please head outside with correctly spined arrows as I did & check for yourself.
Arrowatomik--Diameter of arrow is irrelevant here in testing. Both arrows are spined for the 55# longbow I'm shooting them out of, tuning is not the issue. The target is in great shape as well. I shot many arrows into this & the results are the same! Both arrows tested had 200 grains up-front they were equal. This is not my first rodeo! (grin)
The point is there is a good balance of speed & penetration that can be had by each bow. This is determined by the poundage you are pulling! Now If I had taken a 62#-65# draw wt bow, now the 617grn arrow would out penetrate the 485 grain arrow, pure & simple. It now has enough stored energy to handle the extra heavy arrow.
The same is true with the 55# bow I shot the first 2 arrows through. The 485grn (up to 525grn) is a perfect happy medium for the available energy in that bows poundage. Now if I took a 360 grain arrow that spines to my 55# bow & shot it, it would suffer in penetration. Sure the speed is there but the arrow is not heavy enough to maintain the needed momentum to out penetrate the 485 grain arrow, the reason is I now went to extremes the other way!
Guess what? I just went out & did that exact thing. I shot a 360grn spined for the bow arrow & in 6 out 6 shots the 485grn arrow out penetrated the 360 grn arrow 1 1/2" each time. Yes the 360grn arrow is faster but it lacks enough weight to keep penetrating showing me that the 485grn arrow is best for the weight being dealt with in the bow!
You guys can debate all you want, go out & do your own testing & you will see the same results!
If the thread user decides on his 615 grn arrow for the 48# bow he's shooting he will sacrifice both penetration & speed! Testing doesn't lie & alleviates theory!
For the record there was no noticeable sound or level of noise difference in any of the 3 arrows tested. All shot great & whisper quiet, no handshock nothing out of the Sapphire Hawk L/B
ElkNut1
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seems like i found a topic that needed discussing...
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Elknut - the voice of reason :thumbsup: :clapper:
Steve
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I was thinkin on this here thread; and really; I cannot remember ever losing an animal and looking back on it and thinking I wished I had better penetration on the shot.
I do indeed wish I had been more accurate.
I like it when Elknut1 says "just giving my 2 cent worth" : when all he has in his pockets are 1909 SVDB wheaties :D :campfire: :archer:
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You engineers and pyhsicists (probably mis-spelled both) are a hard bunch to convince.
I still stand by the theory that the heavier arrow will ALWAYS out penetrate the lighter one, provided that they are shot from the same bow and both flying true at impact. It's really pretty simple.
I didn't think the poster wanted someone to tell him if each would work. I seem to recall him asking which would penetrate better.
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i like both light and heavy. for hogs i have used arrows up to 525grs. on deer i use a 378gr arrow. both arrows well tuned and have and will pass thru deer.
btw- my bow i have used these arrows out of is 44# at my draw. also the heaviest point i have ever used is a 125gr point...no weighted inserts or anything. weight is distributed throughout the arrow.
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I just can't resist. I agree that heavier will take longer to stop... more penetration.
HOWEVER!!!
Given the original figures offered by the topic starter, there is a 145 grain difference between heavy and what he has now.
Folks, that's .331 ounce. I just don't get the great returns in penetration of adding another 1/3 oz. to the arrow.
My hats off to you guys that hang your hopes and dreams on that pile driving addition.
;) :D
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Elknut
Arrow diameter is one of the VERY MOST important factors on both foam and critters.
Actually its the main reason that people get better penetration with carbons then alu or wood.
I have done tons of testing too and I can tell you that with the same diameter and the same foc the heavier arrow will kick the most ass !
BTW it will also have most of both kinetic and momentum energi !
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To answer the original post the lighter will work if you choose your shots as you will not blow thru the entire length of the deer (severe quartering away) and maybe not the bulky shoulder muscles of a mature deer. If you can shoot the heavier arrow accurately out to your effective range it should penetrate better IF all else is equal.
Elknut, the only fault I can find with your testing, besides diameter, is you are comparing to different types of shaft materials that react differently to energy transfer, aluminum vs carbon. In my non-scientific testing carbon shafts of the same diameter the heavier arrow out penetrated the lighter one.
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Ping pong ball, golf ball, or base ball....which do you think will go deeper into a snow bank [new wet drift snow] if thrown by the same person? I think the golf ball will win every time. With arrows too, diameter, weight, speed are all about 'reasonable' trade offs.
Oh yeah, don't throw golf balls at deer!
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If you shoot through animals with both light and heavy arrows how is the heavy one any better?Have any of you guys ever hit a deer in the chest with an arrow?They really cut pretty easy with about anything that is sharp. :D
In the last couple of years with all the heavy arrow,single bevel stuff it seems like deer have grown steel plating over there sides.Shoot heavy arrows if you want but but there are thousands of deer that have been killed over the years with regular arrows and they really are no tougher now to shoot through than before the Ashby stuff came out.Unless you are useing depth stuck in the dirt to measure penitration on a soft little deer heavy verses light does not mean a thing.It is about as important as worring about the fastest bow and many others when there is a 3 or 4fps difference in speed between them when it comes to killing. :bigsmyl:
btw..a 480gn arrow is pretty heavy. :)
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imo, all this chit chat can be distilled down to one thought process equation ...
have a trust worthy rig that best defines how accurate your shot placement will be during any hunting situation.
couple that with an extremely sharp cut-on-contact broadhead.
know you and yer rig's effective, consistent kill range, for the quarry yer hunting.
the arra weight is the last thing i'd think of, but it would surely be part of the equation.
each of us needs to plug in the right numbers to the above statements. talking it over is interesting - what really matters is how it all relates to you and yer hunting.
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one thing i'll add - at least for me, and arrow penetration aside ...
although the downside is increased trajectory arc beyond 15-20 yards with my 50-55# longbows, heavier arrows (11 to 12 gpp) just feel *right* ... the shot feels more stable on release, the bow is quieter both during and after release (more limb energy transferred to the arrow), and the arrows just group better (accuracy improved). the rest is in getting the gray matter bowsight to make the bow hand do the right thing. :saywhat:
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Potoo hit the nail on the head "reasonable tradeoff"
I'm no expert & am not claiming to be, but I do have common sense & it doesn't matter to me as a "hunter" what material I shoot into, I want to see which arrow is giving me the most penetration & speed, without lacking in either, that's the arrow I will consider. I also fall back onto real world experience not theory & here-say!
Heavy is a realitive term & defined differently by the user. I'm applying it to the draw wt of the bow used. 485grn out of the 55# L/B was best for penetration & speed. (trajectory) What some are saying is that with this same bow that an 800grn arrow would out penetrate the 617grn arrow, this is not true & cannot happen as the bow at 55# does not produce the needed energy.
But put both those arrows through a 75# bow & the 800grn would now surpass the 617grn arrow. The 617grn arrow would lack the needed momentum that is now stronger in the 800grn arrow. I don't know why it's so hard to understand?
Too, why is the diameter an issue from a carbon to an aluminum, if one is as restrictive towards penetration as you believe then you best stay away from that one! That is if one wants ultimate penetration value!
Heavy is good & needed but not too heavy nor too light. A 615 grn arrow through 48# is ridiculous! The 485grn arrow is much better suited for that bows weight.
I've taken a dozen elk with a slow compound, it shot 220fps, it was an oldie but I liked it! (grin) I shot 410-450grn arrows through that setup with both aluminums & carbons with 75% pass-throughs. A lot depends on angles! So now why wouldn't 485 grn be sufficient? Doesn't make sense to say it wouldn't now does it!
I will also say that I have taken 2 bulls with the 55# L/B with a 485grn arrow, no problem at all I also took another with a 540grn arrow, both worked fine. I took one bull at 28yds right through the center of the scapula on the lower half of it with the 410grn setup out of the 220fps compound with a 125 muzzy 3-blade, the bull went 65yds & piled up. This is another reason why I would have no issues recommending the 485grn to the thread starter, plus of the testing I have done personally.
I will say again, a Heavier arrow will not "always" out penetrate a lighter arrow given the weight of the draw of the bow. If you can prove otherwise I'd love to hear & see it. Theory is not proof because someone told you it should!
Guys, this is a good healthy debate I do appreciate the various thoughts. I'm not saying it's my way or no way, I'm not that sort of guy, but my experience & testing is solid & not guess-work!
ElkNut1
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"What some are saying is that with this same bow that an 800grn arrow would out penetrate the 617grn arrow, this is not true & cannot happen as the bow at 55# does not produce the needed energy."
Sorry, but I disagree.
It's all good though, because they will both work fine for deer. I hunt hogs a lot, in case you don't know me. Many of the bows I shoot are only mid forties at my 27" draw. These are straight longbows, which are not barn burners. I shoot through stuff all the time with these girly bows. I think much of the reason is that I'm shooting 14 gpp. It works for me. If you want to shoot 350 grain arrows out of 45 pound straight profile longbows at hogs, then I ain't tracking your game for you!
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My first question would be...what do you plan to hunt?
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Dont you just love it when someone says they are testing penetration differences between arrow weights ans say they PROVE light arrows out penetrate heave ones when not one thing between the two arrows are the same. One arrow is carbon one aluminum, hmm which one penetrates better :) one has a smaller diameter, which one will penetrate better?
Sometimes you just have to shake your head and go on.
About the size difference what is a 1/3 its all relative what is 10 lbs? If something weighs 1 lb and i add 10 thats a lot but if something weighs 10000 lbs and i add 10 not so big a difference. Now a 1/3 of an ounce is about 25% that can be a huge difference. If i added 50 lbs to a 200 lb. Man i bet he will know the difference.
You'll are correct about the diminishing return on an arrow, but 585 grain is no wear close to to heavy for that bow.
As far as accuracy goes whenever i lost an animal because of accuracy it was always a left or right shot, nothing to do with arrow weight. If you hit an animal low you probablyheart shot him if you dont do that you probably missed, i amfine with a miss. Plus how many people shoot self bows and claim them accurate. I can guarentee your glass bow with the heavy arrow willbe faster than 99% of the selfbows out there. Sure there will be a slight trajectory difference but nothing your mind wont easily adjust to.
With lower weights i like heavier arrows for more penetration go with the 585ish arrow, if you make a bad hit at least the arrow will cut as much as it can, complete penetration.
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Call it boredom, but here's what I found on the internet pertaining to the ping-pong ball / golf ball analogy:
A ping-pong ball weighs 2.7 grams, or 41.7 grains.
A regulation golf ball can weigh no more than 1.62 ounces, or 707.7 grains.
Therefore, a regulation golf ball weighs 16.97 times the mass of a ping-pong ball.
Apply that ratio to the original poster's 480-grain arrow and we come up with a comparative arrow weighing 8,146 grains.
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Jason - gets even better when you go golf ball to bowling ball - 1.62 oz to 16 lbs.
And yes - I have seen this analogy used - much more then once.
Steve
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It is worth reading the Ashby reports.Penetration is drastically affected by many aspects,shaft diameter,shaft diameter in relation to broadhead ferrule diameter,shaft surface finish-it goes on and on.Foam targets are poor predictors of how arrows will penetrate on game.
The only way you can truly compare to find out how weight affects penetration is to have the 2 arrows equal in every aspect except weight.Same point,same shaft material,diameter and finish.
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aaaaaaaaaa, enough of all this - just hone yer shooting accuracy to a consistent level, keep within yer consistent distance range, use a sharp broadhead. :saywhat:
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Charlie, 40 grains can be a heck of a lot depending on what you are weighing. :bigsmyl:
Jason, You are hands-down the go to guy for me when it gets to the details of any issue. Damn, where the heck did you get the weight of a ping-pong ball. LOL! That in itself was a something a lay awake thinking about at night, the exact weight of a ping-pong ball. Heeeheeeeeeee! I'm gonna go weight some crickets now. :goldtooth:
Dr Ed should arrive here at the house later this week. I'll notify him of this thread. He just loves it when everyone starts thinking about this stuff. I'm sure he'll get a chuckle reading some of this.
Here's a simple statement: I shoot a 48# bow most of the time. My arrows weigh between 600-630 each. Why? I shoot short yardages, I shoot hogs mainly and I always shoot for he shoulder bone, and I like the reduced vibration and reduction of noise when shooting heavy arrows. I get outstanding penetration on all game I shoot with this set-up. I'm still not sure I'd see any difference in 40 grains added or reduced in arrow weight. 40 grains just isn't much. Good luck. CK
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Sorry, I misread 140 grains as 40 grains. Dyslexia kicking in this morning. :D 140 grains difference all in the front can change things quite a bit. CK
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Don't know guys, it's pretty tough to argue/debate with success! (grin)
Just got done with round 2. The 485grn wins again! (grin) I put several shots into 5/16" Hardi Plank Cement board. I shot a 617grn 2018 aluminum & a 617grn beman 400 mfx & the beman 500 mfx 485grn all had 200grn up front. The 2 - 617 grain arrows hit hard & went through 2 sheets that were tight together at 20yards & hung up in the feathers after 3 straight shots each. The 485 grain arrow blew completely through both & exited into the bag target on all shots. The 617grn arrows never did.
I then added 3 planks together & shot one shot each, the beman 617grn arrow & the 2018 - 617grn, both stuck aprox 1" into the planking & destroyed both front ends of each arrow. The 485grn arrow stuck out all 3 planks by 1" with not damage to the arrow.
I'm not bias here & I don't sell arrows, these are my findings & all are welcome to have their own tests. But for me if I'm hunting hogs or elk the 485grn arrow will be in my quiver. I've proved to myself at the very least that it has superior penetration abilities over the slower heavier arrows. Dr. Ashby is more than welcome to come & exercise his opinions as well but nothing can negate the tests I've personally done!
Sure hogs & elk can be killed with razored up heads on 375grn--700grn arrows that's not in question, what's in question is the ultimate in penetration & speed for a given bows draw weight. 48#-56# you're very well suited with 475grn to 515grn for awesome penetration!
I will say this, a hogs armor plate is nothing in comparison to 1" Hardi Plank Cement board! Go shoot some yourself & you'll see what I mean, be ready to cough up the arrow because it will blow it up! Have a great day guys!!!
ElkNut1
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Originally posted by Littlefeather:
Damn, where the heck did you get the weight of a ping-pong ball. LOL!
Google. :D
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I imagine shaft diameter is playing a huge roll here as well. Heavy is good, skinny with adequate weight is better. JMHO >>>-----> Greg
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alright fellas...didn't know this was gonna go own like this.... i shoot deer and hogs, in a few years elk(by then i will have the experience to make my decision on them).
to let everyone know i just purchased 24 gold tip blems from bigjim. great price great weight system and i should be at about 480gr when all is said in done...pice was just too right to pass up.
i know this setup will kill anything in texas and for now thats all i need.
btw i'm typing this with my 2 day old baby girl in hand...life is great!
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Interesting findings Elknut, your 8.6 gpp penetrates better than your 11 gpp arrow and is more durable. Scratching my head on that. I am not doubting what you saw but I wonder if all else was equal like arrow tune, angle of impact, broadhead type and sharpness.
Maybe each bow has there own best arrow weight? as no two bows, not even from the same maker are exactly the same. Also using such a rigid test medium maybe a single bevel would do better with the heavier arrows but there weight is below the bone threshold put forth by Dr Ashby. Pain in the wallet destroying arrows so I can not blame you for the limited data.
Your findings do go against common beliefs that heavier is better for penetration. I have not got a clue why the lighter was more durable. I hope Dr Ed chimes in and gives his opinion also.
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one well placed shot -even with a 40lbs bow will do. id prefer accuracy over an arror thats heave that i ca
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nt place propperly bc of its weight.
I shoot a 53lbs longbow with a 430gr arrow
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Katman, LOL!! Thanks for the humor there! It's good to see you & others can see that I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should do, I'm merely doing some testing & sharing the results. The thread starter asked which arrow was best suited for his 48# bow setup, 485grn or 615grn arrow? I knew 615grn from previous dinking around type testing was too much for his peak performance! Yes it will kill, but he could get more out of his bow by dropping the weight to closer to the 485grn arrow.
I'm finding in the hunting world that diameter & material play a very insignificant role. In the tests done with the 2 different materials it shows one does not out penetrate the other to the point of embarrassing the other, they are generally within 1/4". ----We're not building a piano here! (grin)
I also tested the 3 shafts with identical head weight of 200grns by shooting them into a newer 3d hog I bought from the 3d shoots, it's tough material for sure, it takes 2 hands to remove arrows. Both the MFX beman & the 2018 aluminum in 617grns went in 5" to 5 3/8" they traded those depths equally, no significant difference at all. This was measured penetration not how much arrow was sticking out. There were no other holes to accidentally hit on this target. After those I then shot several more times into the hog with the 485grn beman mfx with 200grn head wt. & received 6 1/2"--7" of penetration on each shot all from 20yds. The 485grn arrow bested them again!
This was done prior to the Hardi Plank shooting. All 3 arrows are flying excellent, (well they were-grin) no issues to hinder penetration. Funny thing is even if some were wobbling the best they may do is catch up to the 485grn arrow! Maybe the 485grn one could be spined better & penetrate deeper? I'm throwing all this out there because of somes response! (grin) Some are so ingrained in what they want to hear & not except the results, why? If your bow falls into the 48#-56# range go out & shoot a 615grn or 700grn it doesn't matter & test the value of its penetration against a 475grn--515grn arrow & you too will shake your head as I do!
Enjoy your weekend folks!
ElkNut1
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My main target are 115 lb WTs! I shooot axis arrows, with either a 260 something grain grizzly or a 225 grain woodsman on the front. Been workin for awhile, will stick with it. Sorry have no clue what the arras weigh???
The Dr.'s research I think is some of the most interesting reading there is and I cannot wait for him to do some more. I am going to try some AD hammerheads this year due to his research. but use the same heads. I gotta figure he has shot probably 5 times more animals with the bow then I could dream about shooting!!! WHO am I to disagree.
And yes I can think back and probably blame 2 lost deer to lack of penetration. but that was an older setup I used to use - but these two deer are the reason I have been paying attention to the Docs stuff and thinking what I can try.
This has been an interesting thread with good points by all.
J
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elknut1, what was the specs on the 485 grain arrow and 615 grain arrow, it sounds like they are both beman mfx with 200 grain points. If they are both flying well, they must be different lengths or of different spine.
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Jason, yes Sir you are exactly correct! I weighed each arrow until weights were acheived. The 485grn arrow is a Beman MFX .500 spine 27 1/4" 3-5" feathers. The 617grn Beman MFX .400 spine 27 1/4". The 2018 aluminum is 27 1/2" with a 2 1/4" 2216 collar added for wt. & strength 617grn. Both 617grn arrows have 200grn field-tips. The 485 grn arrow has a 75grn brass insert & a 125grn field-tip.
I'm considering building a 425grn arrow & a 675grn arrow to see if they pull further away from the penetration the 485grn arrow is getting? I think they will according to everything else that has showed. Peak performance appears to be in the 475grn--515grn for the 55# drawn. As arrows lighten up or weights are added the performance suffers in both directions showing me that too light or too heavy is being obtained.
For deer sized critters it's not that important, anything blows through a deer. No offense now, it's just that arrows melt through them when compared to hunting & killing elk. In elk hunting a hunter needs to be as close to peak penetration/performance as is reasonably possible for ultimate penetration & speed especially so in bows in the 45#--55# range with 3-bladed heads.
You never know when that 30yd-35yd shot will present itself, I want to know I'm sending everything my bow has to offer at him at that time! If I do my part I want my setup to do its part, this is no time for disappointments!
I know weight=momentum but there's a peak performance in each bow, shy of that or too much & you go the other way, if you go too much you can really suffer & have penetration issues.
By the way, the 2018 bent just past the 2 1/4"collar on the Hardi Plank making it unusable for future testing. The MFX .400 tip looked great but part of the insert broke & shoved a few inches up the shaft & is coming out the side, it definitely blew up. (grin)
Even if all 3 weights tested were equal in testing I'd go with the 485grn arrow because of the trade-off in trajectory. At 35 yards the difference is close to 24" in drop, Wow!!! But it doesn't suffer, it actually is still the better performer!
ElkNut1
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Elknut I have to agree with you 100% on what you are saying.It is easy to get caught up in the heavy is always best thing and that momentum is the only thing that works.But the truth is the speeed that so many play down is a big part of the equation as well although many want to turn there back on it. Thanks for your impute and results. :thumbsup:
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Gentlemen,
Read the good Doctors results and scientific approach to testing broadhead penetration and arrow weight. Variables pertaining to arrow composition/design and weight have been tested and measured/quanified. It really is pretty simple in reagards to arrow weight alone and not factoring broadhead design or arrow diameter etc...physics dictates as follows:
Force = Mass x Acceleration
That means there is a balance between speed and mass. You can not have all one or the other and expect the same penetration result. An extreme example might be as follows: Take an 800 grain arrow and shoot it out of a 20 lb bow...penetration will be minimal as the bow does not have the energy potential to increase the acceleration of the arrow. Now take an 80 lb bow and shoot a 200 grain arrow out of it...penetration will still lack because the mass thats needed for adequate penetration does not exist. Run the numbers in the formula above and have fun with the arrow weight combinations...you will eventually find the point of diminishing returns for your individual set-up. As a side note...razor sharp single bevel broadheads would greatly help with penetration gains as well. The Ashby reports are posted on this site for a reason...check them out the facts are undisputable.
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Elknut1...not trying to get into a pissin' match but you can consistently hit the vital zone of deer and elk at 35 yards with trad gear... :notworthy: ? Are you sure you are not using that old wheelie bow? :D
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what a great thread.. :campfire:
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What Rob said on pg. 3 I said pretty much on pg 2 earlier. The ping pong ball is not a comparrison, come on!
In the late 40's and 50's, there was an engineer from Allis Chalmer, I think , that wrote alot about the light arrow, light weight theory, He also put it to use, hunting, Someone on here knows who I'm talking about. I read a reprint of his article in a 1980's Traditional Archer mag. Good read, Good shootin, Steve
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Originally posted by IronCreekArcher:
Elknut1...not trying to get into a pissin' match but you can consistently hit the vital zone of deer and elk at 35 yards with trad gear... :notworthy: ? Are you sure you are not using that old wheelie bow? :D
I read his post as referring to 35 yards on elk, not deer. Either way, keeping one's arrows in a target the size of an elk's lungs at 35 yards isn't at all unreasonable.
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Elknut and others with all due respect this is not new; what you have discovered that penetration on foam, plywood etc is accomplished with certain ballistics.
Penetration on an animal that is a different material and very slippery inside is just not the same thing. Concluding one based on the other is like blaming global warming on man.
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Jason, thank you for qualifying that statement! I did say elk sized critters out to 35yds. I would have no issue taking elk at that distance & deer out to 30yds in the blink of an eye!
Arkansas, no speed is not the concern here or I'd consider a 375grn arrow, problem is I'd sacrifice penetration, that's a bad trade off on ones elk hunt! Just as too heavy can be ones downfall as his arrow wt. is to extremes the other way, once again penetration would be sacrificed. If one was guilty towards one or the other I'd take too heavy over too light a setup. I'm referring to a reasonable amount here.
What's being talked about here is a nice blend of speed & penetration not over board one way or the other! My son has taken 2 bulls with a 40# hoyt bow & a 380grn arrow & a 400grn arrow when he was a lad. Since then we've both taken a few more bulls with arrows in the 400grn to the heaviest being 565grn, from 40# to 70# with both compounds & trad gear, penetration is as important as is speed, both compliment one another when a balance is met. In my findings 600grn + arrows is not a balanced blend in the 55# range. I'm sure it would spill over more likely from 48#-56# As I've said, 600+ will kill as will 475grn or less but you do sacrifice penetration when varying from a bows peak performance of its weight. Thanks!
ElkNut1
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I am getting to this thread a bit late and have only read the opening pages, but since I mostly shoot 46#-47# bows @ 27", I thought I'd add my two cents to the conversation. So... here goes:
My bread and butter arrow weighs just a hair over 480 grains which is equivalent to 10.2 GPP @ 47#. This arrow when perfectly tuned and tipped with a razor sharp BH is both optimal in terms of trajectory and devastating on game. That said, the devil IS in the details...and in the case of low-pundage set-ups, I personally believe that every detail matters. Those details are as much a part of what Ashby reports on in his study as the arrow weight/penetration issue.
This year I will be elk hunting with a 47# Schafer Silvertip and my bread and butter 480 grain arrow tipped with super sharp Grizzly ElGrande BH's. I have complete confidence in this set-up. Now I wish I could say the same for my aging knees... :bigsmyl: !
Claudia
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Like Claudia said - Grizzly El Grande BHs are a good choice for maximizing penetration!
(I think Dr. Ashby said something similar...due to "mechanical advantage"....)
Shoot straight, Shinken
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Elknut, try shooting the handi planks with blunts instead of field tips.
ChuckC
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elknut's studies are far easier to read and deal very well with what I hunt.
Steve
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Claudia--(Pinecone) Great setup!
Bjorn, nope info is nothing new, the thread starter asked a question & I was answering it as honestly & factually as possible, the thread has evolved into this is all.(grin) I've been bowhunting nearly 30 years now myself, I still learn new things, never too old to learn for sure, I speak for myself there!
Materials used are what I had at hand, I was simply checking the amounts of penetration each offered. What material do you want me to use? Some here are not sure what "Hardi Plank Cement Board is? It's major tough, when a hole is punched, it looks like an arrow going through cardboard, it doesn't shatter or explode. It's tough & it takes serious energy to get through it very similar to a scapula or shoulder-plate.
The 617grn arrow simply did not have the energy at 55# to get through 3 sheets, the 485grn arrow did. Now if you were doing your best to choose a good weight arrow for an up-coming elk hunt & wanted the most penetration you could get & you were the one testing & these were the results you yourself found what arrow weight would you decide on? One must make the right decision with the facts not emotion! I have done this.
I have taken many different animals over the years many of them are elk I do know the difference between Hardi Plank & animal flesh & bone! It was a good honest test!
ChuckC, why would I want to use blunts instead of a field-tip? That's a good way to bust all arrows shot into a solid object other than a target or gelatin!
ElkNut1
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Elknut not trying to be a wiseass here its still not the same foc on thoese arrows.
200 grain upfront on a light arrow will give high foc, great penetration and less arrowmass to be pressed onto the tip on impact ( stronger arrow/tip connection.
200 grains up front on the heavier arrows will equal lower foc, penetration and arrow/tip strength
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Because blunts tend to blow out the rear side of the board and leave you with a hole larger than the arrow shaft. As long as the bow / arrow has enough power to get thru the board you will likely get better penetration with the blunt than with a field point or broadhead.
What does that mean ? Nothing. Apples and oranges, just like shooting two different diameter shafts into a compressed foam sheet target.
I do not see how Ashby's stuff is at all theory. He has numbers and figures and actual experience backing him up, though, granted limited in nature. Numbers, using the substrate we are actually hunting, not blocks or plywood or gelatin.
What IS the issue is whether or not you NEED to have all that penetration available on an animal the size of a whitetail deer.
That, my friend, is what should be debated here. I tend to agree with you, that it is not required on deer.
ChuckC
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Speed can get you through stiff material, especially if there is nothing behind it to slow the arrow down.
Try your test into something with more give to it and you will get a completely different result, I promise. You just can't simulate shooting muscle tissue by shooting a board.
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Originally posted by Bjorn:
Elknut and others with all due respect this is not new; what you have discovered that penetration on foam, plywood etc is accomplished with certain ballistics.
Penetration on an animal that is a different material and very slippery inside is just not the same thing. Concluding one based on the other is like blaming global warming on man.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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I remember talking with a fellow member at our archery club who had 8" of penetration on an elk shot at 20 yards in 2007. He was using a 400 grain arrow from a 70# compound. The arrow hit the vitals area He figured he hit a rib going in. Arrow weight does make a difference. It seems speed can't make up for arrow weight in all cases.
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Jason I would be willing to bet he did not have a Stos broadhead on that arrow. :D Don't confuse what you see with light arrows on hunting shows as arrow weight problems.Most are shooting 2" wide expandables.Those same arrows tipped with broadheads like we use would never be found they would go through so fast. :biglaugh:
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This wasn't an expandable, more like a thunderhead. I agree the choice of head makes a difference. That was the second report we've heard of where a light arrow going fast didn't make it through an elk that fall.
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Wow...
Best thread Ive read on here in a while...
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Originally posted by Jason Jelinek:
I remember talking with a fellow member at our archery club who had 8" of penetration on an elk shot at 20 yards in 2007. He was using a 400 grain arrow from a 70# compound. The arrow hit the vitals area He figured he hit a rib going in. Arrow weight does make a difference. It seems speed can't make up for arrow weight in all cases.
He had to have something else going on.
I shot a mature cow elk with a 420 gr arrow from a 53lb recurve - 185 to 190 fps - 15 yds.
Clipped the outer edge of the scapula, thru a rib, both lungs, rib, thin part outer scapula - buried in the shoulder muscle. His bow had up to 50% more umph then mine - if the rib hindered penetration that much, there where issues of somekind in his setup outher then arrow wght.
Steve
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Hey guys, thanks for taking the time to comment. It's tough to please everyone but tests are tests. So far no matter the arrows composition tested the 617grn arrow has not won one test. I could lie & say otherwise but that wouldn't help any out that were truly looking to better their setups or just confirm their present setups!
To be brief, I tested 2 arrows this morning with broadheads this time! A 2018 aluminum at 628grn tipped with a 2-blade ABowyer single bevel head at 210grn which includes adapter. The 2nd arrow was the same .500 MFX Beman with a magnus stinger with a total head weight of 205grn total arrow wt. 490grn. Both heads were equally sharp. I tested a total of 24 shots per head at distances from 15yds to 25yds at the rear quarter of the nearly new dense Hog. It's very consistent with no soft spots at all. The 490grn head won 24 out of 24 in the penetration category. The shots varied in depth differences from 2" to 1/2" depending on the distance. I was very precise in each measurement! I should mention I left the bleeders in the magnus stinger for grins or the difference in depth would have even been greater!
Not only that the trajectory was so horrible at 25 yards it truly was amazing with the 628grn arrow. It dropped every bit of 24" more than the 490grn arrow at the 25yds.
Please understand folks I'm not trying to convince anyone here of anything, I'm merely sharing the results of the tests. You can make changes or you can keep what you use now, it doesn't make any difference to me, I'm just sharing info!
On another note arrows don't just bounce off animals for no reason! We've taken a good 50 bulls with 390grn-420grn arrows over the years out of compounds from 40# to 75#---When you consider that 490grn really isn't that light! The 40# bow was my sons, he killed 2 bulls with it & that thing was sending arrows in 170's--Most decent L/B & Recurves will send a 490grn arrow in the 190's these days. That's more than just adequate elk medicine! Have a good one guys & gals!
ElkNut1
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C'mon elknut making holes in boards and foam has nothing to do with making holes in real animals. As an example it makes no difference if the BH is very sharp or not quite so sharp in board penetration-does that mean we don't need to sharpen BH's anymore either?
Ashby has done the tests extensively, and shooting into real flesh; so shooting arrows into HandiPlanks, or whatever they are won't change a thing, except show us how to make holes in boards.
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Trouble with all tests is there is no controlled median that accurately replicates LIVING animals - including fresh dead. Far too many varibles(bone/no bone, density of the bone,angle of impact, animal moving, breathing etc, and dozens of others) to ever get the numbers of exactly matched shots needed to show anything more then anecdotal trends.
Everyone has their own thoughts, ideas, and opinions on what shooting into different medians means to them. We then couple it with our own real experiances with live animals, determine our needs for the game we are pursuing and choose our equipment accordingly.
There is no right or wrong if what we choose works for us. And lots of combos work.
Steve
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Good post SteveB
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I think Elknut has plenty of experience as he has stated in shooting live animals. Who is this Ashbey guy I keep hearing about one would think nobody has killed anything before he came around.
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Here you go Jesse,
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=24
He's stuck an animal or two over the years.
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There have been some good comments made above and maybe a little different perspective/approach might be useful in this discussion so that we are all on the same page.
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I think that we would all agree that
(1) a .22 Rimfire is capable of killing *any* animal in North America - it's all about shot placement
(2) a field tipped arrow will kill *any* animal in North America - it's all about shot placement (e.g., penetration of both lungs for major organ damage)
(3) bowhunting is accurately shooting an arrow tipped with a razor sharp broadhead into the vital organs to quickly and humanely kill the targeted animal- by a combination of hemorrhage and/or major organ destruction
(4) in order to achieve #3 a bowhunter *must* practice with their hunting equipment to develop the necessary skill to take a high confidence, accurate shot (based on (a) the effective shooting range of their equipment and (b) the appropriate shot angle using knowledge of the target animal's anatomy) with an arrow tipped with a razor sharp broadhead capable of penetrating to the vital organs.
(5) much of the decision making tends to be subjective rather than objective, but ethical bowhunters will stack the deck in their favor in order to achieve #3. Ethics can be learned from others or by experience.
(6) we should all be ethical. To help people achieve this goal, laws (game laws) have been established. However, that does not necessarily mean that one size fits all and that everyone must drive the "same type of car". (e.g., my daughter and I both hunt elk and we both use legal equipment, but we each know our limitations so our shot selection and shot distance are different - dramatically different....)
(I don't think I've had this much fun since the last time I served on jury duty.....)
Soooooo...the bottom line is that there IS more than one equipment combination that will effectively kill elk, but a good elk bowhunter would be able to use a particular combination of matched equipment to achieve that goal by practice, practice, practice, and more practice in combination with study of the animal to stack the odds in their favor (e.g., the things mentioned above - learn their effective shooting range, *know* the anatomy of the animal, and use a razor sharp broadhead).
That's all I've got for tonight!
Shoot straight, Shinken
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It's important to have confidence in your arrow setup, and it's obvious Elknut has plenty! :)
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Good posts & thoughts guys!!! For the record!!!!! I'm not comparing or competing with Dr. Ashby in any shape or form no more than he would compete with me. Not in any post I have written have I even remotely alluded to that either so let's dismiss those thoughts please, thanks!---
This is what it's all about, thinking & doing things where we have hands on. I totally agree with the flesh & bone thoughts as well, penetration can be hindered or heightened depending on different forms of contact once inside the animal, we have no control over that but we can put together a setup that best suits our bows to be the best they can be, that's all I'm doing here, again remember the original question, the individual wanted to know what arrow suited is 48# bow best?
And yes, a guy can get some great feedback out in the backyard how his setup will do once in the field where it counts! It's called testing! What's wrong with that, have we gotten so high-tech we can't get our hands dirty! Do we need to read a book/manual or watch a video & let them give all the answers so we don't have to do anything ourselves? Hey, where's the fun in that!! (grin) I enjoy the tinkering with the bow it's brace height & varying the poundage a bit, too I like fooling with woodies, carbons & aluminum with various tip weights & arrow lengths, so sue me! (grin) This is how we have hands on & learn & put together these awesome setups together & get to know our equipment inside & out, it's a lot of fun & very satisfying when it all comes together!!
Bjorn, Those various target sources do have their value, although not perfect but very good starting points & indicators on what one can expect from his equipment! It's like testing broadheads for durability, if you had one that continued to fail or bend in ground hits & others stayed in great shape after such hits you most likely wouldn't use the weaker one. The arrow testing are just that, indicators!
If you really would like to know what different poundage's & arrow broadhead combination's & wts. work very well I'd be happy to share any info with you I have as far as real life experiences go. I've seen & been through quite a bit with a variety of applications & bow weights. I can share quite a bit on just penetration itself like tough critters such as Elk especially. My confidence comes from experience, the more you see setups actually perform well the more confidence one will have.
Well, I'm testing 3 different arrows today all the same wt. within 7grns--540grn. All have different head wts. I want to see how each perform as far as penetration goes. One is a lodgepole wood with a 125grn head--2216 with a 150grn head wt.--2018 with no collar & a 175grn head wt. all weigh in around 540grn & are tuned to my 55# L/B. Care to guess which one is best in penetrating? (grin)
ElkNut1
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Interesting stuff. However, there are a number of variables that aren't being controlled/tested. Elknut, you're primarily trying to compare heavy vs. light, but arrow surface and arrow diameter as well as arrow dampening also play a role in penetration. Aluminum generally has a larger diameter than carbon. Don't know if that's the case in the arrows you compared, but if it is, I would expect the aluminum arrow to penetrate less. An arrow shaft smaller than the broadhead/point which the carbon shaft would have is a huge advantage in penetration. Likewise, aluminum bends more on impact than carbon, also reducing penetration. I have no idea which material might be "slipperier" going through wood, foam or a real animal, but I expect it plays a part as well. Can't assume that these factors don't have a substantial impact. Need to test them to be sure. In fact, Ashby already has.
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Elknut in you last test its still to many variables. The light arrow have both high foc and way smaller diameter counting for it.
If you TRULY want to know if more ARROWWEIGHT is good or not you HAVE to make arrows that are the same foc, diameter, same tip, and equal good tune.
Here is a CHALLENGE for you :
I will bet you that if you test you existing "light arrow" against another carbon spine 500 cut ( and tuned )a little shorter but with more tipweight ( use steel adapters, brassinserts or so ) the heavy one( which will have most foc also ) WILL outperform the first one !
If you cannot tune a spine 500 use a spine 400 with a 275-300 grain head ( a 200 grain head on on a heavyer arrow wiil have less foc then a 200 gr. head on alight arrow )
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I noticed that i was getting better penetration using Heritage 150's with 220gr phantoms up front on hogs then when i was shooting goldtip 3555's. The heritage were coming in at 575gs while the gt were 485gs. I noticed a big difference when shooting boars with the shield.
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92 posts on this topic and I doubt one person has changed their mind about their hunting bow/arrow setup. :knothead:
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Elknut.
We may not agree on it all, but thank you for sharing your results. It was way more experimenting than I have done and it sure gives me more info to base my future choices on.
ChuckC
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Nice respectable comments from most, thank you! The other 4 individuals are down right rude & your comments are degrading & un-appreciated! There is no benefit at all with those types of comments. If you have something constructive to add, great, otherwise please keep them to yourselves!
J from Denmark, very good thought, I will try it out & see what the outcome is! This will put the heavy carbon well over the 615grn mark but I'll give it a shot! (grin)
Mint--what draw wt. bow are you shooting the 575grn arrow out of?
This experimentation has nothing to do with light or heavy. It's what's the best wt choice for ones draw weight. I'm saying/finding that 48# draw with a 615grn arrow is too much therefore penetration is compromised. Not that 485grn should be used regardless of draw wt.--just want to be straight on that! (grin)
By the way the out of the 3 arrows tested the one with the heaviest tip (175grn) out penetrated the other 2 even though all were 540grns, it won consistently by 1/2"---I figured I might as well test the 485grn one with 200grn up-front too out of the 55# bow it bested all 3 by 1 1/8" better penetration. Thanks!
ElkNut1
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To clarify my comment because no disrespect was intended:
It appears this is a hard-headed bunch of folks whether you use 620gr arrows or 480gr arrows to kill big game. Once a bowhunter gets confidence in his setup he believes it's the best and it's tough to change his mind.
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This is great...As I have said previously a "scientific" approach would be better for this kind of testing. All variables need to be accounted for and negated to be able to compare weights. As others have mentioned there are many variables that need to be addressed before and accurate determination can be made. Arrow weight can be the only variable in the equation. Shaft diameter, poundage of bow, target consistency, distance, broadhead design etc. all NEED to be the SAME before one can even think about making a claim about arrow penetration. The rules of science and physics require it...its not a scientific or physics "suggestion" they are rules for a reason.
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You guys keep doing test and crunching numbers and maybe one day we will be able to get 4 holes with an arrow instead of two.I am all for that. :biglaugh:
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:biglaugh: ...I love it James...right on!!
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i know one thing i bet alot of people didnt even know what foc was until recent times, elknut has very good points:
go get a 35 pound bow and light arrow and go shoot a deer or elk i bet you that your arrow will pass right through it. now use a heavier arrow and its not going to be the same its all about setup i could take an arrow weight it in the back of the shaft and its going to penetrate the same because no mater what you are going to still hav ethe same arrow mass whether it is in the front or the back
shoot what you like and stop worrying about penetration and worry about shot placement
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I think everyone debates heavy versus light, or which animal is tougher to get through, or whether Ashby's work should be followed. Like was said I bet not many change their setups - elknuts stuff is interesting for sure, can't see where the speriments were bad??. Need to do some more elknut but I have no suggestions? If elk were not so good to eat I would say you should try some of Ashby's style testing on downed bulls. Hey North American Ashby tests!
I agree with what elknut said in that you can't just slap a heavy arrow on a bow and expect great performance or a super duper penetrating arrow, there has to be a threshhold there somewhere where the weight becomes a deficiency.
Where I disagree is that a light can out penetrate a heavy giving both are at there optimal performance, using their weight efficiently in motion.
Keep this going - good stuff here,
J
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Once again, very good points guys!!!
jdog, that's what I've been playing with! Light if you want to call it that, that will out penetrate too heavy an arrow. The same applies to too light of a setup. One must take into account the draw weight the user is pulling, simple as that, it does not need to be scientific as I'm no Scientists for sure but I do have enough smarts & experience to be dangerous! (grin) Thank you for your comments!
IronCreekArcher, you've just come in a bit late is all, I already covered those variables you mentioned & their results with different diameters & arrows with various targets & tough to penetrate structures. It's in the previous pages please check those out & you'll see the results, you will find them extremely interesting with what I will share here in a minute, all from backyard testing & much in the way of putting animals on the ground!
Everyone please read this part it is of interest for sure! I started this particular phase of backyard testing a few days ago. I've done similar testing in the past but not to this extent, but enough to satisfy myself that I was using a very sound setup in both compound & trad gear use. I will say I have not been disappointed! Our results in the field speaks for itself over the years.
What I find interesting is the lack of support by some saying my testing is inadequate & cannot be relied upon or used in the real world of hunting, is this true? I'm not perfect & I made a few adjustments with some recommendations by others & I say thank you! I wasn't interested in splitting hairs! The info I came up with & its results are as accurate as I could be & definitely usable by other hunters other than myself. I wasn't trying to be scientific or win a Nobel Prize! (grin)
Here's where it gets interesting! I took the time this afternoon & read for the first time Ashbys report for 2008 just to see where he's coming from. I believe it's his latest info if I'm not mistaken. Much of it is over my head & you need to be a college graduate to sift through it all & digest it. But his bottom line is this, he recommends what he shoots & tests, don't blame him there! His tests were as a result of an 82# bow with a 720grn arrow, is that a heavy arrow? Not at all, not for that poundage. This is exactly what I've been trying to explain.
His arrow to poundage ratio is 8.75grns per pound, does this sound familiar? (grin) When I said my tests showed that the 485grn arrow was the best penetrator out of a 55# bow in comparison to an arrow that weighed 617grn some of you guys thought I was nuts! Guess what the ratio is with a 485grn arrow at 55#, 8.81grns per pound. Nearly exactly what the good Dr. would recommend & use himself. I realize I did this in the backyard but it goes to show you even a stubborn old elk hunter can come up with the proper results with such testing.
The Hardi Plank Cement board isn't such a joke now! (grin) The 8.81grn arrow showed in my tests it was the best performing arrow for that draw wt. & Dr Ashby would agree according to his studies.
As most of you know I used the same 200grn wt. at the head of all those different weight arrows, from aluminum to wood to carbon, all penetration winning combination's were won by the arrow supporting the 8.81grn, coincidence? I think not, penetration is penetration I don't care how elaborate you want to make it.
Make sure all arrows are tuned & spined to the bow at use & you too will have these same results, facts don't lie!
Apply this 8.80grn per pound ratio to your draw wt that you pull & you'll have darned near the best weighted arrow for your setup. I don't care if you shoot aluminum, carbon or footed shafts, your setup will be absolutely a deadly penetrator for most game you'll ever hunt. If arrows are not tuned to your bow then the proper weight means nothing, you must fix it!
This doesn't mean you cannot have 9.5grn per pound or 8grn per pound it just means you're in the ballpark for a finely matched arrow to your setup! As for the thread starter who asked what's best for his 48# setup it's not the 615grn arrow which nearly tops out at 13grn per pound, it's too much & penetration will suffer in comparison to a 485grn arrow or even a bit lighter! Thanks!
ElkNut1
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Are you sure you dont want everyone to shoot 6 grains per # (grin)
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No Elknut1,
Thank you for takeing the time to share your tests and experience with us all.Even though you may at times feel like your beatin your head against the wall,Some of us appreciate it.
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I read Dr. Ashby's report a bit different than Elknut. I can understand that everyone tends to interpret results in a way that is consistent with pre-existing understandings. A couple of examples of the last Ashby report that may be missed are: (1) the 82# bow is described by Ashby as being inefficient compared to some high efficiency mid-60's# bows that were capable of shooting the same arrows just as fast; and (2) heavier arrows than those mentioned by Elknut were also used by Ashby and showed greater penetration than the lighter arrows. Ashby also describes instances of lighter arrows giving very little penetration on various animals.
Dr. Ashby is unquestionably a proponent of heavy arrows. Like Dr. Ashby, professional hunters in Africa who have seen the best and worst of hunting equipment in daily use on the largest animals in the world for many years uniformly recommend very heavy arrows for maximum penetration. They do this based on real life experience with live animals that can and do fight back. Professional hunters make their recommendations based upon what works to kill dangerous game, not how far an arrow will penetrate foam.
An example of how target materials can affect penetration is that a light .22-250 bullet traveling at high velocity will easily penetrate steel plate that will only be dented by a heavy .470 Nitro Express bullet traveling at moderate velocity. However, the same .22-250 bullet will be stopped in a few inches in an elephant's skull, while the .470 bullet will penetrate for feet. So, how much do we learn about terminal ballistics for hunting bullets by shooting them into steel plate? Not much. In practice, I think there is a huge difference between penetration in foam and penetration in animals with arrows. Even the results reported by Elknut for penetration in his hog target of only a couple of inches is vastly different from his reports of pass throughs in elk. I applaud his efforts to perform actual testing rather than rely totally on anecdotal statements. I also think Elknut has shot enough animals to know that his arrows from his bows are more than adequate for the animals he is hunting. He is obviously a knowledgeable, ethical hunter for his prey. On the other hand, there is a huge difference between the animals he is hunting and the large, dangerous game that Ed Ashby and others are designing arrows and broadheads for. I would not hesitate to hunt any elk with a .270 Winchester, but I would feel grossly undergunned if I were using that cartridge on a cape buffalo, rhino or elephant. I would feel very comfortable using a much lower velocity, big cartridge on those same animals because people for years have successfully used the large cartriges and found the smaller, lighter ones to be much less effective.
I will be hunting cape buffalo later this month and will choose to use what has been proven in the hunting fields to be effective. My arrow will weigh 915 grains with an Ashby broadhead. I expect it will do its part if I do mine. On the other hand, like Elknut, I use a significantly lighter arrow on elk and deer.
I'm not being rude or attacking anyone's ideas, just stating my impressions. None of my statements are original thought anyway. Someone else already related everything I have said. I'm just choosing to agree with tried and proven results.
Allan
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amar911, very good post my friend! Yes I agree his setups do vary in the 720grn to 815grn range out of the lightest of 3 bows which the tested one was 82#. His record keeping & explanation is very very good & yes he's more into the larger deadlier game the earth has to offer. In using bows in the 80#+ to 90# range I totally agree that 800grn to 900grn arrows are not out of the question for the animals he's hunting.
But it's less than 1-grn per pound difference than a 720grn arrow to a 815grn arrow. That's not a huge life altering difference for the animals 95% of us hunt. If I were hunting cape buffalo I'd surely do some serious testing of my own & come up with the perfect setup, ones life could depend on it! (grin)
How many here already have a setup they're happy with, I dare say most do! OK, how may here according to what they draw poundage wise are shooting arrows in the 8.5 to 9.5 grain per pound in a finished arrow? I shoot an 8.8grn per pound out of my 55# L/B---This is a very good arrow wt. & performs well for me & I'm within the parameters! This can help determine ones best wt. range & have the best of both worlds in penetration & speed! But most hunters don't care & will not listen to the point of making changes. I'll bet many here are shooting 12grn per pound & up, yet even after showing them with testing of my own & Ashbys testing they still will maintain their setups because they feel they work just fine! And I'm sure they do in most hunting situations. There's not just one arrow wt. per bow that can work there is a range that will suffice but there's only one Peak, after that it suffers slowly depending on which end of the scale you're on! Be balanced & you'll reap the rewards!
Ones broadhead choice & sharpness is important as well! You will have folks that love 2-blades & folks that love 3-blades for various reasons. I want 3-blade for blood on the ground & I have my reasons just as most have theirs. But one thing we can all agree on is to do our best to take the animals we hunt as cleanly & humanely as possible! Let's stick together as hunters & learn from one another, Lord knows I love soaking up any info that will move me up to the next level! Thanks! Come on Elk Season!!!!!!
ElkNut1
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Guys thanks for all the input and private comments... this has been very helpful.
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nightowl1, the loaded question is, what arrow wt. did you decide on? Curious folks would like to know! (grin) Or you can PM me if you're more comfortable? Thanks for your patience!!!
ElkNut/Paul
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I bought some 35/55 blems from BigJim...I plan on shooting 200-225 up front so it should land around 485 ish... We will see what happens in the bareshaft tune. But this would give me around 20% FOC and 10.5 gpp. WIll be shooting a snuffer and keeping the shots in 20 yards.
Shooting from 30 yards i just loved the flatter trajectory of the lighter arrow.
This should keep me happy for a while...ya keep up the chat if you like... been great.
Now i have to figure out my fletching choice back to the 5 vs 4 thread!!! haha
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btw when i eventually head to find an elk i might boost the wieght a bit but ill know more after i stick a few big pineywood rooters
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Hey, thanks for the reply!!! Your setup will work just fine! If it helps any I've shot the similar weight arrow as yourself with both 4-4" feathers & 3-5" feathers, I couldn't tell any difference in arrow flight at all, I then tried 3-4" feathers with the same results, good luck in your testing, you'll appreciate it more! (grin)
Of course this was all done with a well spined arrow! I was shooting the SnufferSS 125grn, this year I'm a smidge heavier up-front with a 75grn brass insert. Last years was a 173grn up-front, it passed through the bull.
ElkNut1
ElkNut1
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elknut1,
I read in previous posts that the 485 grain arrow had a 125 grain point and the 617 grain point had a 200 grain point. Is the 200 grain used in the 617 grain arrow larger in diameter than your 125 grain point used in the 485 grain arrow?
I've noticed that my heavier arrows I use for 3D's and target shooting (using 250 and 300 grain points), don't penetrate foam as far as those with my smaller diameter 125 grain points. I believe it's because the 125 grain points have a smaller diameter than the 250 grain points. However, when hunting and using broadheads the heavier arrows penetrate further.
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Dont know if this was already posted but it seems MR.Bear has some info on this same subject pretty interesting and from a good source I think lol. Check it out http://www.fredbear-online.com/
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Jason, No, the field-tips on both the 485grn arrow & 617grn were identical. The 485grn arrow also had a 75grn brass insert giving it 200grn up front. They were equal up front. The 485grn arrow was 8.8grn per #. The 617grn arrow was 11.58 per # it was too heavy to be the better penetrator with that poundage!
It certainly can be true one setup out-performs the other. You don't say what you consider heavy or light & what poundage you're using? Too, are you using the same broadhead? Are they both 2-blade or one 2-blade & a 3-blade on the other? All this must be considered in comparisons.
It's sorta like the guy that wrote about his buddy with a 65# compound & 400grn arrow & it bounced off a hog because it was too light. Is that really what happens with such proper setups? No it is not, something was wrong. Arrow not tuned to the bow, he jerked his bowhand & threw the arrow into a fishtail or maybe both, that is he possibly shot an un-tuned arrow & jerked his bow arm & really sent a squirrely arrow out there never able to straighten out before it reached the hog! It's obvious there was a breakdown somewhere there!
We've taken way too many bulls with that setup to know that arrows don't just bounce off critters.
Like yourself I've used extra weight up front for several years now & like the results but I don't sacrifice penetration by going TOO heavy, it doesn't make sense if I do. I want a balanced weight that will blow through nearly any part of an elk. I'm not interested in trying to blow through an elks leg. If that happened where contact were made there you're not killing him anyway as there's no vitals there. At least your odds are hugely against you in killing & finding him!
The same goes with a scapula hit, the only part you can penetrate & still have decent odds of a kill & recovery is to hit the bottom portion of it below the main ridge or partition. That's where top of lungs end any higher & you go over them. If that happens you are at the mercy of your broadhead to somehow take a needed downward angle & float around & carve things up. Not good odds! (grin)
In my opinion there are no major bones that require penetrating to get to the vitals on an elk. If you find yourself needing to blow through leg bones for a kill you are taking bad angled shots. Nothing wrong with quartering to you, quartering away or broadside shots, but none of those require major bone penetration to get an arrow through. A rib is not major bone, it can be blown through with a 40# bow & 400grn arrow. A scapula hit on elk means you shot 12"-15" to high, lower your shots!
If you can stay within the 8grn--9.5 grn per pound of draw you will have one lethal setup! Of course your arrow MUST be tuned to your bow! Thanks!
ElkNut1
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Elknut thanks for taking all the critiqe so well !
I know that you are a very skilled hunter ( have one of your dvds btw ) but I simply just dont agree with you ( Niether do Ashby )
Here is three points if interest
# There is no such thing as to many grains pr pound of drawweight when it comes to penetration.
If you have acces to a chronograph try testing it for youself. even at 15 grains per puond both momentum AND kinetic energy will be higher then ANY lower gr.pr.# And that is a FACT
# I have read ALL of Ashbys material several times and ( btw. he has more TRUE BIG GAME KILLS under his belt then any of us together backing up his findings ) I proved that with a LIGHTWEIGHT and SLOW LONGBOW with an ekstremely high grain per pound arrow he got better penetration then with heavier bow with medium gr.pr.puond. ( btw. his very first studys are very informative and has less number cranking )
slim arrows with high foc and as heavy as you can accept regardin loss of trajectory is the way to go.
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That should say " he proved"
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Everyone needs to just use what works.If you don't have the experiance to know what will work read about it from someone you like,ask someone you trust and try there way.It might work for you and if it don't try something else untill you find what does.This is a topic that will never be agreed on.We all have the bad habit of letting our own experiances with things influence our judgements.No written report or thousands of test is going to make someone change from what they know from years of doing it works quite well.If I ever desire to kill a buff I will pat attention to those that have.If elk hunting I think elknut has done it enough to know what he is talking about and has proved it has worked.For most of the stuff like deer which is hunted more than anything else by us...well it all works. :D
No matter what you choose the only true thing that works for killing animals is learning to shoot well enough you can hit them in the soft spots.Without that nothing else really matters anyway.If we spent as much time doing that as we doing trying to dissagree so much we might wind up agreeing more when we see the outcome in the fall. :biglaugh:
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James, thanks for the kind words, they're appreciated! But inquiring minds need to know! ME!!!!(grin) As long as the debate is healthy & informative I'll go with it, no harm in that plus I need to prove to myself what are the real facts! My resources may be limited but they haven't let me down so far over the years on tough critters!
J----I will load up & tune a 750grn or so arrow & stack it up against my 485grn arrow & send it on it's way with the 55# draw L/B--I may even use a single bevel edge ABowyer head for the tests. My gut tells me the 750grn arrow is too slow to out penetrate the well balanced 485grn arrow!
So far in my testing the 617grn arrow is aprox. 0-70 that's right the heavier arrow has not won one time. I should say the too heavy an arrow! (grin) I'll be back! (grin)
ElkNut1
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Looking forward to hear your results.
Remember to use a carbon arrow as close in diameter to the light one as possible.
HIT-inserts carbons will outpenetrate regular carbons so you also need to use same design carbons
While we wait I can tell you that from our tests on legbones from calves we kept the same bows (both recurve and compound ) but tried different weight arrows and the results was that penetration increased as as arrowweight increased.
But actually I belive that arrowdiameter and maybe also foc are atleast as important as arrowweight. And the great thing about thoese is that there are no downsides to them whereas there is the obvious downside of bad trajectory to haevy arrows.
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J From Denmark:
Force = Mass x Acceleration...yes you can have to many grains per pound of draw for adequate penetration. Try shooting a 1000 grain arrow from a 30 lb bow...I know this is on the unrealistic side of the spectrum but it makes the point. See my previous posts in the earlier pages...there is a point of diminishing returns for every set-up.
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Hi Elknut1,
With all do respect your experiments buck the laws of physics, the main reason your light arrow out penetrates the heavy arrow is because of your EFOC ( extreme foreword of center ) which is a major factor.
Your light arrow has around 27% and is also a smaller diameter, and your heavy arrow has around 10% and a fatter diameter, impeding good penetration.
If you give me this info I can tell you accurately what your EFOC is for each arrow.
Arrow length =
Shaft+feathers+nock wt =
Separate insert weight =
Adapter weight =
Point weight =
Total arrow weight =
Balance length =
There is only one negative in shooting a heavy arrow, and that is trajectory, it also makes a huge difference where the weight is in the arrow, move it forward, and WOW!!! it jumps through most anything.
Sir, you need to read this, then re-test, the good Doc. has 50+ years of testing behind him.
2007 Report, update 8
http://www.tradgang.com/ashby/2007update8.pdf
KINGWOULDBE
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Ironcreek.
Yes I know the equation and yes there will be a point of return. but the fact is that the loss in speed is just not as big as the gain in arrowweight when going to heavier arrows inside realistic measures.
Here in dk we have to have use an arrow/bow combination that gives atleast 40 joule.
its common that people shooting light weight tradbows need to go to a heavier arrow to obtain the joule needed.
AND if we are talking momentum ( which we should be ) the gain in momentum when going to heavier arrows are quite huge ( not so with kinetic energy )
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Kingwouldbe, you nailed pretty much my main points in very clear speak, thank you
Still interested in hearing about your results though, elknut
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I might be wrong but I dont think a 485 gr. arrow with 200 gr up front is 27% foc -- 27.25 " arrow
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# There is no such thing as to many grains pr pound of drawweight when it comes to penetration.
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True or not is irrelenant to me. I hunt deer mainly and occasionaly bear and elk. 8gns/lb has given me consistant passthru's.
I do know (for me) there is a "too many gr per lb for MY accurracy. Extra penetration potential
that sacrifices accuracy FOR ME is not a trade I am interested in exploring.
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Steve I agree completely on the accuracy part as I also have stated earlier
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Kingwouldbe nailed it!
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Thanks again for the input! Let's not get off track here, we are determining what arrow setup is best for the thread starters elk hunt & setup! Some are trying to shoot through brick walls & some of us just want to shoot through elk! (grin) In the tests I've shared up to now the 485grn aprox arrow wt. best suits him at 48#, it will go to bat for him delivering ultimate penetration & the best flat shooting arrow. The testing proves that bow weights in the 48#-55# are best suited with arrows in the 475grn to 515grn or so weight.
A 615grn arrow or more is absolutely not needed nor realistic for 55# draws & under. Will it kill elk, yes! But so will a 370grn arrow at those draw wts. The best happy medium is in the middle. I've proven this many times myself on real live elk, not theory.
And yes, I have tested various head wts & arrow wts. with the same diameter arrows. You just have to go back in this thread & read it all.
As far as the latest tests done I used 2-701grn arrows. One with 270grn head wt. the other 165grn head wt. none-the-less both weighed 701grn, I wanted to see if there was a big difference? Both were on 2117 arrows cut to tune.I also tested a 510grn arrow with a 165grn total head wt. I only tested broadheads this time. One 2117 arrow had a 270grn ABowyer single bevel with steel adapter the other a Silver flame with the 165grn total head wt.
After 5 shots each at 20yds into the dense hog target the Silver flame penetrated 3 3/8" on average, the ABowyer heavier head penetrated 4" nearly every shot. The heavier head wt. won out even though both arrows were identical wt. But there was a 105grn difference in head wt.
To my surprise the 510grn MFX tipped with the Silver flame with 225 total head wt. penetrated identical at 4" with the 701grn ABowyer head. I felt the MFX should have went deeper but it didn't! (grin) It was a tie! But the MFX did best the 701grn tipped Silver Flame with the lighter head wt.
Now for the serious testing! I shot all 3 of these setups into 1" thick Hardi Plank Cement board with the 2 different broadheads. Here's the results! The heavier head setup at 701grn with the ABowyer head stuck through the other side by 3/8" "impressive" this is tough stuff! The Silver Flame on the 701grn arrow at 165grn head wt. did not get through the 1" it made it aprox 3/4" 3 straight times, it would not bust through! Showing the heavier wt. head makes a difference even on the exact weight total arrow wt.
I then took the 510grn MFX tipped with the 225 head wt Silver Flame & it too stuck out 3/8" on 3 straight shots getting great penetration but not anymore than the ABowyer 270grn head on the 701grn arrow. Both of these would blow through some serious bone if needed. --- I then shot the MFX at 15yds & 25yds & did the same with 701grn arrow. I picked point of aim using arrow tip at both distances so both were equal, at 25yds, the 701grn arrow had 29" of more drop than the 510grn MFX. Now examining the penetration results not only this time but in all the testing & given the flatter shooting what in your mind is the best arrow setup on ones elk hunt? No doubt the aprox 500grn arrow is the best choice!
Couple of thoughts here. KE does play a big part in ones penetration value, no it's not an end all but neither is momentum, there must be a "balance" for the intended game you're hunting! Both setups were producing close to the same 42# of KE----As the one arrow gets heavier it gets slower but it does not lose much KE in the process until too heavy comes into play with the designated 48#-55# draw wt. But trajectory suffers greatly! Too fast, too slow, in the middle is best!
The ABowyer head had a curled tip on first shot through cement board it did not get much worse in the following 4-5 shots but I was a bit taken back by it. The Silver flame head was unscathed, actually the pointed tip was still needle like, absolutely amazing. Too, it would still slice you if you weren't careful, that is the toughest head I've ever seen!
As all can see I'm no expert here, but these test prove to me why my setups have never let me down on my hunts. 9-10grn per lb is major deadly & a great balance for an elk hunters setup, these wts will not sacrifice anything.
ElkNut1
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Wow...I am surprised and a little bothered that the Abowyer tips curled. Between my dad and I we spent $110 on Brown Bears and adapters. What model Abowyer where you using? Also, do you think the tips will bend on bone given its a "softer" material than Hardi-Plank?
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Yes, I was a bit surprised as well, but that's the way it happened! I would not let that bother you, the ABowyer head is a very good stout head & cement board is extremely tough & hard on things. Too, if you hit anything on an elk that's that solid you are already in a world of hurt. (grin)
You would have to connect dead center on the leg bone or hit a scapulas partition before you experienced that kind of force, those shouldn't come into play as little good can come form it. There's plenty of kill zone on an elk to be flirting with leg bone or such shots. A rib itself is no match for any quality broadhead, so that's of little concern! Good Luck & don't sweat it!!
ElkNut1
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Thanks elknut1...I was hoping that the whitetails around here were not that tough... :D
My dad and I have been toying with the idea of an Alaska trip in the next year or two and I was hoping to get some field time with the Abowyers prior to that to boost the confidence. I was hoping they would work well on Moose. I am shooting a Black Widow PMA 49 lbs at my 28" draw with 525 grain Easton Axis N-Fused arrows tipped with the Abowyer Brown Bears. Do you think that set-up will lend itself to adequate penetration in your opinion?
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Damn, I love this place! This has been a most interesting thread. For the most part there have been only civil disagreements here. Had this been started on most other sites, the flames would have been horrible to see (think Hindenburg).
Though elknut's scientific method sometimes makes me smile, he does make some valid points, and who can argue with his success on elk? I have often wondered at what point one starts to see diminishing returns on heavy arrows. It looks like the old-timers had it right with the 10 grains per pound of bow weight theory. Elknut's experiments also confirm that keeping the weight forward is critical to penetration.
At today's prices, shooting broadheads into cement board makes me cringe. Thanks for using your's elknut! I don't think I am brave enough to try that.
Thanks to you, elknut, and thanks to those of you who kept this thread both interesting and civil. :thumbsup: :clapper:
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Exactly what 30coupe says great place, great discussion, and great results!
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Great thread. Thanks guys!! :thumbsup:
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Hey guys thanks! Nothing wrong with healthy debating, we can all learn from it, I know I sure appreciate others inputs, this helps me to even fine tune things a bit more without building that piano! (grin)
30coupe--Yes I did bust a couple things up but it was worth it, tests can speak volumes, much more so than "it just stands to reason" (grin)
I certainly agree with the extra wt up-front, there is much to be said for that! How much is more of a personal thing depending on total arrow wt & arrow materials used. For elk I like 165grn min but will be shooting 200grn up-front this year. I'm adding head wt but not increasing total arrow wt, my finish product this year will be in the 485-495 wt range at 55#.
As another point of interest on the penetration difference between the 2-701grn arrows. Even though one out penetrated the other by only 5/8" don't take that too lightly. It may sound trivial but it's not. That difference in head wt penetration can be in the 3"-6" additional penetration factor. Meaning that suppose you hit a rib dead center & the broadhead busted it & penetrated 5" more on an elk with the 701grn arrow with the 170grn head. Take that same situation & have that extra 100grns up front even though the total arrow wt is the same & now that can mean 8"-11" total penetration after going through a rib. Just something to consider!
Iron-creek--Your setup will prove deadly on Whitetails for sure! Personally I would probably opt for 490-500grn at most, but your is close enough that no real changes are needed. For your future Moose-Elk hunts I would make sure if you're using those arrow wts that you put at least 200grn of that wt up-front for best results. Those ABowyer heads will certainly do the job on those tough critters! If you can up your draw wt a bit for that moose hunt then even better! If not, stick with broadside shots no more than 30yds!
ElkNut1
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Elknut,
What where the shot distance of your tests?Also,have you done this type of test beyond 35 yrds?
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Overbo--
The shot distances were mostly at 20 yards. But other ones varied from 15yds to 28yds. I stated all distances for the most part depending on the test done!
I have not extended any comparison tests at the 30yd distance or longer except for our own setups! We have confidence with our 485grn--525grn arrows as long as we are in the right draw weight areas. If our draw wt exceeds this we then up arrow wt. We have taken a bull at 41yds with a 525grn arrow tipped with a Zephyr 2-blade with bleeders, the arrow passed completely through him on a broadside shot. The arrow was cedar with a 125grn glue-on, it was not a footed shaft. I like more head wt. but you can see what even 125grn will do.
If you'd like I would be happy to test a particular arrow wt. for you at a further distance as a comparison, it's no problem!
ElkNut1
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Iron-creek,
Alaska law requires at least 50 lbs draw weight to hunt moose, brown bear and goats, 40 for caribou and black bear.
Steve
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Your thread prompted me to conduct my own very "unscientific" test on penetration of different heads today. Note I said heads not arrow weight. I doubled over a vehicle license plate and proceeded to shoot it with my set-up. I figured the aluminum plate would be harder to penetrate than bone on a whitetail seeing as though it is more malleable than "brittle" bone. My set up is a Black Widow PMA 62" recurve pulling 49 lbs at 28". My arrows are Easton Axis N-Fused 500's with a 100 grain brass inserts and 200 grain tip for a total arrow weight of 525 grains and 10.71 grains per pound. My arrows were also bare shaft tuned and shooting bullet holes through paper.
The first head I tried was the Abowyer Brown Bear. I stepped back to 20 yards and shot the arrow three times and averaged the results. The arrow penetrated the plate an into my Block target consistently 4.5". The next head I tried was an Eclipse double bevel 2-blade. This head never fully penetrated the plate and only managed 1/2" of penetration. The third head I tried was the Magnus II double bevel head. This head also failed to penetrate the plate fully and averaged 3/4" of penetration. The fourth and last head I tested was the Woodsman. This head failed to penetrate the plate fully as well and averaged 1.5" of penetration. The one thing with the Abowyers I noticed was the distinct rotating cut in the plate as it should.
Take it for what it is guys and I hope this helps in some way. This testing did tell me one thing for sure...Abowyers will be in my quiver this fall!
Best,
Dan
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Go back and read the Ashby reports.The Abowyer Brown Bear has most of the penetrating features recommended by Ashby.Make any sense? I wonder if any of those tests are worth looking at?
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Nut,
What I was wondering,If more FOC has a adverse effect on penatration at longer distances?
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I have read all Ashby reports in their entirety...they are a great read. Based on that I suspected the outcome it was just nice to confirm.
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Elknut, now I actually think that you just dont want to learn anything from your tests. comparing penetration from fat alu arrows to skinny carbons tells you nothing about the effect of weight.
I am of this thread now, and you will never know the true potential of your bow my freind.
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A couple of observations:
Grains per pound mean nothing if you are comparing a self bow with a high-end recurve. My 40# recurve shoots the same arrow bare-shafted, with equivalent speed and trajectory, as my 55# self bow. With a 600 g. arrow, 15 g/# vs 10.9 g/#. Equal performance.
Penetration on live animals is vastly different from penetration in any other medium, including dead animals. The instant blood flow makes diameter insignificant. The blood is an excellent lubricant. Diameter IS important to penetration in high-friction media, like foam.
Now and forever more, the single most important factor in penetration is an arrow that flies perfectly. Everything else is window dressing.
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Dan, that's great!!! My hat's off to you for taking the time to test your own personal equipment! Now you know what it's capable of & this will build confidence, your setup is definitely in the ballpark, good luck to you & your Dad on your hunts!!!
Overbo, I will test something in the 550grn---2 arrows that weigh the same & shot out of the same bow. One with maybe 175grn head wt & the other in the 225-250grn head wt. but both arrows at the same wt. My gut & testing tells me the heavier head arrow will do best! (grin) I will shoot them at 40yds.
J From----sorry you feel that way! But I feel you are splitting hairs here & I'm not interested in the perfect arrow & head wt. I just need "ballpark" This isn't a competition! I am a hunter foremost & want a good lethal setup, I don't need scientific. Nothing personal Sir but that's just me. I agree head weight is a contributor to penetration, no doubt about it. This is why I shoot 200grns up-front on a 485-495grn arrow at 55#.
On another note of aluminum versus carbon, it's pretty apparent that the skinny carbon is not a good comparison by some because of it's smaller diameter & that results show it's a better penetrator. Well, if that's the case stay with the carbon with good FOC that tunes to ones setup & you know you will receive the best possible penetration with everything being equal! Simple as that!
This doesn't mean you can't find a great penetrating aluminum arrow that stacks up well for ones bow, it just means that a carbon will slide in a bit deeper, possibly into the dirt on the other side!
As I mentioned in an earlier post we've put arrows with a 125grn total head wt. at 41yds through an elk, pass-through. On another hunt my son was shooting the same cedar arrows tipped with a 2-blade swickey at 525grn at 60# he put that arrow through the scapula of another elk, the elk was dead in a 150yds! He was lucky & caught the bottom half of it or he would've went over the lungs!
How much more are we to ask from out of our setups? I agree penetration is a huge factor, we are achieving that & now have our setups to perform even better with general testing & adding a bit more head wt. Is it perfect? Probably not, but it will blow through elk, we are in the ballpark! Each bow can be different you've shown that in your example, tune your bow to the best possible setup as an individual bow & you will be good to go!
ElkNut1
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I have always shot heavy bows, and until a few years ago, I used arrows that would be considered "light" for my draw weight.
I began experimenting with heavier arrows, and found nothing but benefits in doing so.
When my oldest son came of age to hunt, I found his forty pound bow performed best when pushing AT LEAST the well known 10gpp. A bit more was better, with a high FOC.
We tried arrows that were around 8gpp, and found that it was easy to tell what worked better, just by the sound of the bow. Ninety grains DID make a difference.
Like Don Stokes said, it all comes down to a perfectly flying arrow.
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how many grains per pound did Dr. Ashby get to or prefer? if he was testing 60 70 and 80 lbs and using 700+gr arrows that seems to be still the standard 9-11gpp and his test were mainly for EFOC
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I would like to get Dr. Ashbys opinion on the fact that everything else is just "window dressing" in realation to the "perfect flying arrow". I would be willing to bet money that he would highly disagree. You need to read the reports...they are a great wealth of information and QUANTIFIED FACT related to this very topic.
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and Paul, thanks for all the info and testing and time you have put into this! Good thread here, good, healthy debate! :thumbsup:
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Dr Ashby is here with me on this morning. He hasn't been online much lately but said I could answer this question for him. In question on what weight arrows were being tesed(9-11 gpp statement above).
All weights were tested from 380 grains-1500 grains total. When using the ACSCX(64# BOW) the arrow that performed best was 15 gpp.It shot that arrow weight faster than Docs 82# longbow.
A lot depends on arrow design with the 82# bow. On a normal foc arrow the best penetrating arrows was achieved with arrows over 900 grains. At extreem FOC the weight can be dropped below 800 and exceed the penetration of the 900 gr arrow. This is with the same shaft diameter, broadhead, etc. Essentially the same dimention arrows. This is all done with perfectly bare shafted tuned arrows. Hope that answers that question. (Doc Ashby) CK
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I'm not sure if he has a specific formula.Maybe someone with better memory can answer that specifically.
I have been reading the 2007 Study Report,Update #8 and it is a very good one to read.It isn't as complicated to wade through as some of it and it lists penetration enhancing factors in order of importance and has pictures.He also gives compelling reasons why his findings are applicable to hunting whitetails and other game,not just the heavy skinned/boned animals he uses for real tissue testing.
If you want to read some of the Ashby reports,I would recommend at least reading this one.It summarizes some good stuff-in plain English.
I order of importance,he lists:
1.Structural Integrity of the entire arrow system
2.Arrow flight
3.EFOC
He places Arrow Mass,#6 and says this:"You should use the greatest arrow mass that acceptable trajectory allows.Even with every other penetration-maximizing factor in place,greater arrow mass still equates to more usable-force,and more outcome penetration."
At no.12 on the list (thats almost the bottom) he places Arrow Mass (weight) above the heavy bone threshold.I believe this is an arrow weighing at least 650 grains.He goes on to say "On heavy bone impact this factor will jump to very near the head of all factors; excepting only structural integrity and, perhaps, quality of arrow flight"
He also says:" From a personal standpoint, I will not hunt with an arrow below this threshold.Bone impacts of one type or another occur on most hits, and bad hits can occur at any time.
Regardless of the arrow setup or broadhead tip design you use,there is a marked difference in the frequency of penetrating heavy bone when total arrow mass is below this threshold.The threshold is at or near, 650 grains of total arrow mass."
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Penetration on live animals is vastly different from penetration in any other medium, including dead animals
EXACTLY!!
And live animals will never give a controlled enough test to ever split the hairs that some wish to do. The best we can do is take the anecdotal results from live game shots and form our own opinions accordingly for what gives us the results we seek individually. There is no one right way - if you recover the critters you hit, it works.
Steve
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I've followed this thread and feel that some are misinterrupting Dr. Ashbys tests. He is not testing what will out penetrate through skin, tissue, lungs,etc. on a perfect hit. We folks, are hunters. Sorry to say the perfect hit is not always the case. If it was then I would shoot dull broadheads and it will go through tissue. The Dr's test were for the marginal hits that occur all too frequently. Is that 480 grain going to penetrate better on a deers shoulder than the 680? According to the test, NO.
Point is, lets compare the facts before we criticize what the doctor has done. Understand his tests before making an assumption.
I really cant understand how a thread about which arrow to hunt elk with turned into this. :scared:
Been fun, I'm outta here!
Mike
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Maybe the high tech "Bag that Buck" guys on the outdoor channel will come up with a retractable broadhead that gets smaller when it hits bone.
That's what it's all about. We've all been there.........Something happens and the arrow hits ..."A little Too far back
When that happens, we're either glad we have a big broadhead or wishing we had. The reverse is true.
When we hear the crack of shoulder bone, We're either glad we're shooting a heavy arrow with a bone blasting two blade single bevel broad head or wishing we we're.
Ken Beck said it well once when asked what the thought the best broadhead was. "Tell me where your going to hit the animal first".
I think that realistic uncertainty applies to our entire set up and the way we choose to hunt.
A guy that hunts deer from high stands most of the time wouldn't want the risk of a poor hit with an entrance wound way up high on the deer and no exit wound low.
If he has the strength to pull hevy bows he can get away with more choices.
Many other folks would opt for lower stands or make sure that their arrow broadhead choice was meant to blast through at the cost of loss in trajectory which would not be as important with a high stand.
Match your gear to your hunting style and keep it in your own performace requirement "envelope".
Great threads guys...........
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I agree hitting any kind of bone can prove a disappointment doesn't matter what you're shooting! No guarantees you get an arrow into the vitals because you feel you have a bullet proof setup, because nobody does! Anytime a leg bone is considered in the equation as a high productive shot to reach the vitals, then your shot thinking is way out of line! A hunter should allow things to develop & choose all shots carefully.
Sure crap happens but really how many times does this happen in real life hunting situations? Too, is a two bladed head a cure-all? A lot depends on the hunter himself, he must examine his strong points & his weak points. Are you the hunter one that consistently "crowds" the shoulder & just can't help it? If so, consider a 2-bladed head! Are you a hunter who seems to crowd the liver or one lung because of angles or even the guts but rarely are near the shoulder blade area? Choose a 3-bladed head. Everyone of us fall into a certain category or even our hunting groups for that matter, just think back on stats over the last 5 years & see where you as an individual or your group lies!
I suspect that Mr. Ashby has at one time or another been a "crowd" the shoulder type hunter so has come up with a formula that will help him out as this issue arises. Heh, I applaud him for taking the necessary measures to help out his cause. I say this because it's not the standard to try & force an arrow through the scapula or leg bone of any critter in an attempt to reach the vitals. We should be patient & wait till a much better shooting angle arises or let the animal walk, not just force a shot because he may get away despite your equipment!
Our hunting group has killed as many animals as anyones & I can't ever recall one leg bone hit, yes several scapula hits but those were rare indeed in comparison to the hundreds of non-scapula or any bone hits. (ribs don't count) This shows me the facts that major bone rarely comes into play but it's much more common to be just off the lungs towards the liver or guts or too high or too low in those areas. Penetration is rarely the issue with well tuned equipment, when this happens I want a large wound channel & a blood trail. If the arrow stays inside I want it carving it up like a cleaver this is why razor sharp heads are a must!
On elk blood does not readily spill out like on deer, the hair soaks it up good, you need a hole where blood continues to ooze even if the arrow still plugs the entrance hole some! Here are some actual facts I've put together!
2-Blade , 3-Blade or 2-Blades with bleeders! Which are best? A lot depends on what you're hunting & what you expect from your head of use. It seems to be a subject often discussed & will continue to be so after we're all long gone! (grin) I have my preference as well, the only difference may be that I've been able to pull some stats together over the years of using both types of heads. My conclusions as to what's best for us are supported by my stats & findings under real elk hunting conditions with a few deer thrown in here & there! (grin) I gathered these from the last 5 years from our elk hunts, this is important to me because elk are thick skinned & hided, more so than deer. What works well on elk will no doubt carry over into like animals. When hunting elk I want blood on the ground, even on less desirable hits. This is very important if you hunt country with thick under-growth where trailing is tough without it.
These stats are from 24 elk killed, 2 cows & 22 bulls, here's my break-down, hard facts don't lie. (grin) Out of these 24 Elk two were hit in the scapula/shoulder plate, one with a 2-blade Swickey 125grn & the other from a 3-bladed muzzy 125grn. Both elk were recovered. Seven other Elk were hit in less desirable areas bringing that total to 9. The remaining 15 were hit in the heart & lung area. This shows us that 62% of the elk taken or the 15 would have expired quickly no matter the head used. The less desirable hits were 9, that's 38% out of the so called "kill zone" when this happens you need your head to do all the damage it can & still have a blood trail to follow. Fortunately for us this was the case with razor sharp heads.
Here's how I view the results, 2 scapula hits out of 24 elk. That's 6 1/2% that were hit where a 2 blade could have made the difference, the one 3-bladed muzzy scapula hit was from a compound bow, it still had the energy to penetrate & do it's job. This leaves us with 93 1/2% of shots somewhere in an elks body away from major bone as scapula/shoulder hits that so many are concerned about. Ribs on an elk or like animals are no match from a reasonable setup where 40+ pounds is used along with 10grn per lb arrows. Distance is always a factor especially in lighter draw weights & setups. Point is, we have now turned to using nothing but 3-bladed heads or 2 blades with bleeders, why, larger wound channel & way more blood for trailing. We've taken 6 elk with 2-blades all results are the same, that is, little to no blood spilled. Funny thing is where the elk dies there's generally lots of blood from 2 blades but none in-between for tracking. This would be bad for the 38% where elk were hit outside major organs. I will play the odds & use 3- bladed heads, 93 1/2% chance I will miss the scapula & yet have plenty of blood on the ground for tracking purposes when needed!
Yes, 2-blades kill, but blood trails are at a minimum. 3 blades kill & blood loss is maximized! This is not a post, use what I use, this is a post we stick with what has proven itself time & time again to work & offer us great blood trails in very dense underbrush much of the time. It's not uncommon to be in chest high grasses & willow brush, if you've tracked game in such spots you'd better be following blood because tracks are no-where to be found! Use common sense & consider the areas you hunt, use what works best for you!
ElkNut1
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Good post elknut ;)
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Very nice post ELKNUT1. But lets take your focus from a 500 to 700 pound animal to a 150 to 250 pound deer and your room for error goes way down. But this post is about an elk hunt and not deer so I'll leave that for another time. I will agree on the 3-blade. I love the blood trail of my snuffers compared to my 2-blades.
Back on topic- nightowl, I'm sure you see there are alot of different views on this topic. I would suggest you use what you feel comfortable with in your setup. As elknut stated, the lighter arrow will do the trick on elk as well as deer. So will the heavier one. Maybe an arrow weight in the middle of both will satisfy you. Whatever arrow you decide needs to be tuned for your bow. And whatever YOU decide, will give you the confidence you need. Best of luck to ya!!!
BTW- If your going elk hunting, may I suggest ELKNUTS DVD pack. It is well worth the money and he knows his elk.
Mike
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I am completely suprised at how much information I gained from this post... I was hoping to have some solid facts thrown at me and i was right...
Elknut you took the road less defended and did a great job with some very strong common sense arguments and all the Ashby supports have some good backing too.
My decision is still I think either will work but I am now more confident with BOTH setups. I believe i can grab any arrow out of my man room and kill anything in reach. Thanks guys...
Now if i can convince my brain and body to focus my shots better...
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I have been following this thraed as well and have found it extremely interesting and informative. Thanks for all those who have posted their test results and field experience. I have just started using carbons (Axis 500s, 30 1/2 in, 3 5" feathers, 100 gr insert and 150 gr 4 blade Magnus bhead - total arrow weight 515 gr) in my 50# recurve. I want a set up that will be good enough for moose/elk/big black bears as well as deer. Have used aluminums in the past and had good luck but want to put the odds even more in my favor. This new setup flies like darts and I was anxious to try it on the real thing. I took this black bear last week from a tresstand over bait at 15 yds. Complete pass thru, 50 yd recovery. Was really impressed and think I have found a winning combination.
(http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w282/tradhtr/Bear1186.jpg)
Elknut -- great thoughts and I am now thinking that a 3 blade may even be a better option for what type of critters I am hunting. What would you suggest?
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Ok not of the thread yet.
Elknut, I agree with your observations and standpoint on 2 vs 3 blades, they match my own very closely.
And I am glad to hear that you finally accepted the fact that arrowdiameter is a factor.
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I think Fred Bear suggested 10 to 12 grains per pound... If'n it was good enough for my hero.. it good enough for me... Can't nobody be more right then Papa Bear!!!
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good post guys and may i say what a pleasure to see so much respect for others thoughts..
good hunting
pat.
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Turned into a good thread. :bigsmyl:
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I agree once again, that the thread is informative & it's all because so many are willing to share their thoughts! I know I enjoy reading & sifting through the various findings & ideas!
Albertan, nice work on a great looking bear!!!
James, LOL!!!Those Muzzy heads were one tough bugger for sure!!!
J From Den---Thanks! I'm a little slow at times but I try! (grin) This is the first year that I'll be hunting elk with a carbon arrow. I've used aluminum up till now out of 2 different longbows. The aluminum's did fine with no issues but am interested in seeing if there's a noticeable difference in penetration. I figure that the carbons are stiffer structurally & should recover from paradox quicker therefore offering a bit more penetration without changing my arrow wt. Time will tell. (grin)
It certainly holds true out of compounds that we've hunted with in the past but the speeds are not comparable to trad gear.
ElkNut1
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Well people always talk about carbons penitrating better than other arrows even if they weigh the same.I agree as well.Still why some always think it is because of the material inself I think it is just because they are lighter in weight.Any point you screw on one gives you a higher foc than on a like spine aluminum and more than any wood arrow.Even a 125gn point on all but the heaviest carbon results in a higher foc than a heavy point on a wood shaft.Just my idea of why I can shoot light arrows and big broadheads from my girly bows and get two holes much more often than not. ;)
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If "ifs and butts were candy and nuts, we would have Christmas every day."
Arrow makeup and diameter have something to do with penetration, but all that goes away in a millisecond, if that arrow isn't flying perfectly and has to expend its energy correcting in flight.
I've seen guys shooting with arrows that kicked high and low on release....wiggled back and forth, and wobbled like a wounded bumble bee. In any of those cases, you will not get good penetration regardless of FOC, mass, KE, et al.
But, if all the energy from that arrow, is put on the tip of the broadhead as it hits the animal, the penetration will be maximized. Make sure whatever you are shooting, it is flying in the most perfect alignment possible to the intended target. Then work on accuracy and you won't have to worry so much about the outcome.
I will guarantee you this: A heavy arrow will not even compare to a lighter one, if it isn't flying perfectly when it hits...and the lighter one is. If it is flying perfectly, then you have an advantage especially in heavier game. I've watched my 480 grain arrows zip through whitetails so quickly that the deer didn't know it was hit.
There's more to this game than numbers on a piece of paper.
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I will say again - what a great thread.
I am wondering about something. I learned alot reading many threads on TradGang, as well as the Ashby reports.. this being said most of us hunt whitetails here - at least i think. Talking whitetails deer - after reading all this info, I changed my setup to improve my chances of making a killing shot in a shoulder shot deer. I wonder not what a grizzly or the modified grizzly Dr. Ashby refers to will do if it hits a shoulder bone, with a 500 grain arrow, from a well tuned setup (arrows fly straight)
It was very well put above if we could choose a head based on where we will hit we will all be fine. I cant stop thinking about penetration. My son made a perfect shot placement on a deer (his first) 2 years ago- quartering away hit opposite side shoulder and the Magnus stinger broadhead fell apart. We found the deer but because the broadhead / arrow DIDNT have an exit wound we were lucky we found it as the entrance wound was high... it was after this I started thinking about broadhead performance and read the Ashby stuff...so we all know we can blast through most shots on a deer but if we hit bone, I want an exit wound so cant help but think that broadhead design that favors easy penetration (hence 2 blade) is an advantage period.... I guess Im thinking about the bone of a big deer and what it takes to pop through it and get an exit wound...I dont think we need 800 grain arrows but in a tuned setup, I wonder what a low limit is on weight/mass of arrow.
Sorry if I am ramblin a little, all this talk has my brain in a spin.
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Eightwgt-
I am interested in this as well. Good questions...I wish I had the answers. Maybe someone can point us in the right direction here.
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EIGHTWGT,
From what I've read the heavy bone threshold is 650 grains. Apparantly "heavy bone" includes whitetail leg bones.
I broke a leg bone of a mule deer with a 650 grain doug fir shaft with a Zwickey a few years back. I believe there is truth to what Ashby has discovered.
High or Extreme has shown no effect on the "heavy bone" threshold, it only effects soft flesh penetration. The arrow's weight has been discovered the key to heavy bone penetration.
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I don't understand the bone threshold... which report is that in or can someone just explain that too me...
650gr moving at what speed? because i wouldn't think i could throw a 650 arrow fast enough to break bone.
I agree with elknut on this issue, there is a point of diminishing returns. I could not take game shooting a lead pipe with a 10 lb bow. THis is the extreme i know but there is probably a bell curve in there, for a 650 gr arrow and its required speed.
A 46 lb bow may not reach that mark.
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Brent/Albertan
Look at you go...again. When were you going to tell the rest of us. I look forward to the invite to next years bear hunt....it's time you shared that location, location, location with your pals.
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Good questions & good points! As one can tell broadhead choice can really come into play here!
First I want to say that by trying to build an arrow wt. that will bust through anything is really not the way to approach this, sure we need penetration but we also need a reasonably flatter shooting arrow, you need the best of both worlds, 9-10grn per lb offers this. This wt. may be adjusted for large dangerous African game as should ones draw wt.on such hunts.
As George mentions "TUNED" equipment is of great importance, penetration & tuned equipment go hand in hand.
Pass-throughs are great but not necessary! I personally want a larger wound channel & don't care if arrow comes out other side or not. I will still & do get plenty of blood loss to track that animal.
I've had exactly the same experience with a 2-blade as EIGHTWGT has. His son got tons of penetration actually way more than enough, he went 3/4 the way through a deer but the shot was high. The cavity no doubt was filling with blood with little coming out the entrance hole. That's some tough blood trailing for sure.
I've shot elk in similar spots with zero blood for tracking with 2-blades. I've shot elk in those same areas with 3-blades, bigger wound channel more blood! Doesn't matter if the shot is a bit high they still bleed! I will state again, 2-blades will kill that's not the issue, the issue is blood on the ground on great hits & no so great hits.
For hunters to feel they must bust through leg bones to have a great setup is just not reasonable. This can lead to wounded critters. I avoid such shots & angles if at all possible. You could glance off left, right, up or down even though you're getting penetration, your odds are not good that on such shots you will dead center the bone hit & continue on with perfectly straight in performance! There are plenty of places to hit deer & elk without connecting with solid bone! For the record a 10grn per lb arrow with an Aboyer head for example will blow through the lower portion of an elks shoulder/scapula plate, no question in my mind!
You are not as likely to do this with a 3-bladed head, odds are very low! To penetrate scapula type hits you'd better also hope your critter is perfectly broadside, it's tough to penetrate tough bone on angled or glancing shots, they will have a tendency to skip or skid off. Point being, stay away from that area, you're too high anyway!
Too, 500grn arrows shot out of proper # bows don't bounce off animals! We've shot plenty of animals to back that up. Do a test of your own to build your confidence if need be! It's tough to base ones end all decision on one animal hit, the more the better & proper data can be accessed for the best results!
ElkNut1
It's like saying you hunt the wind but now you wear scent-lok & now I can forget the wind, not true & you will be busted by an elks nose!
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Hey Curt I have a question...why did my post of asking Albertan if he had an article in a bowhuntng magazine get removed?
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nightowl1- You ask what would be considered too much. Only you can answer that question. Example- I shot 525 grain arrow from a 54# curve but wanted some more weight. I made it al the way to 700 grains but was not happy with my arrow trajectory. So I backed it down. I now shoot with an arrow of 625 grains, comfortablely. Yes, I could get more speed with a lighter arrow, and yes I might gain a touch more penetration with the heavier arrow. But I found a happy medium that I can live with and is TUNED perfectly to my bow. Did I say it's tuned perfectly to my bow? :bigsmyl:
With that said, try several different setups and see which one you feel good with. Be sure to tune with each setup as bad tuning could give you a false read. It takes time but you will be pleased in the end.
Mike
ELKNUT- I purchased one of those purty scent-lok suits several years ago and you know what I got; a $200.00 pair of purty coveralls. Hunt the wind smart!
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ICA,I have no idea....
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Just wondering it seems to have disappeared oh well I will just PM him...hey have you heard how Tracys hip is doing? I have not seen him on here in a while.
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Tracy's doing great :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Thats very good to hear!! :thumbsup: Are you going out to hunt with him this year?
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I have always had the mentality "know why you believe what you believe"...i think thats a perfect fit for this thread
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nightowl1, very good point & so true!
ElkNut1
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I don't understand the bone threshold... which report is that in or can someone just explain that too me...
650gr moving at what speed? because i wouldn't think i could throw a 650 arrow fast enough to break bone.
See....this is why I despise "absolutes" in most hunting discussions. The 650gr. threshold (alone) is useless.
I disagree (respectfullly) with those who proclaim a pass-thru isn't that important. What could be of more importance to a hunter at the POI than the arrow? Having the arrow to confirm or identify the severity of your hit is paramount for determining your recovery plan of action. I know I've "smoked" deer in my mind's eye.....only to have the arrow tell a diiferent story (either at the POI; along the recovery trail).
I think studies like Dr. (What's he a Dr. of, anyways????) Ashby's are somewhat an exercise. The thing is.....what he's trying to sell is pretty much common sense.
It's really not that hard. Get the heaviest arrow that your setup will push (and yes, there is a point of diminishing returns, here). Get that arrow flying straight/true. Put a sharp, pointy cutting head on the front of it.....and fire away.
At some point, the heavier arrow (shot from the same bow) will become LESS lethal than it's lighter counterpart. Common sense. Use that same common sense to figure out where that is, for you and your setup.
I think it's interesting we think we need someone else to make BH choices for us.
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One of the most profound statements I have ever heard was uttered by a good friend of mine.
It is: AVOID EXTREMES !!!
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I'm in the process of changing arrow setup again. I'm sure this really surprises everyone :bigsmyl: I like a big heavy head 300+.
I'm trying a GT Ultra light with 300 head total 517grains, 27" arrow @45-48# @ 26". My personal feeling is the heavy point is better than total arrow weight. I'm not saying 300 upfront and 100 gr arrow. anything over 450 total and 250 Plus heads. Elknut,Charlie, anyone with actual experiance with this type of setup.
Bob
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Bob, I'm trying a similar set up but I'm using 520 Redlines or CT Cheetah 525's..
I'm anxious to try the set up on game. I'm not familiar with the GTUL's I'll have to give them a look..
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Bob, tried the GT traditionals with the 300 up front and found them to be too weak for my setup. Couldn't cut the arrow down anymore. You might be right in the ball park with that setup though.
Was wondering when you would poke your nose in here.LOL
Mike
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Two things I would add to the application of Dr Ashby's intel. Not only is he hunting "dangerous game" that have very heavy bone structures and a penchant to not die easily and get after those that didn't hit them well, but also that almost all of the even smaller plains game in Africa have "hog like" vitals.
By hog like I mean they are low and far forward compared to our N American deer species that the majority of us primarily hunt. His basis for finding the best penetrating combo is not necessarily because he is just a shoulder crowder by nature, but even the impala there have vital areas much farther into the shoulder than our deer. Anyone that has hunted hogs much knows that perfect "pin wheel" shot on a whitetail may very well end in a peetered out blood trail and a crappy night's sleep.
Also, for elknut your findings are very interesting and highlight well that it is not always "add more grains" to increase penetration, however every bow is different and your #55 long bow may have a far different "best penetration range" than my #55 takedown recurve, given the different power strokes and the like. Also the quiet factor is something worth considering if looking at an arrow weight on the light end of the "penetration range" and the high end, if the lighter end is moisier.
Keep the info coming, hopefully ya'll are willing to tear up enough broadheads and shafts that I don't have to spend my greenbacks doing the same!
Zeke
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Bob... right now (and for a while) I've been shooting right around 305gr. up front and believe it's a great advantage.
I'd take more up front weight if I could get it and still stay in tune and within a reasonable total arrow weight. I'm shooting a 625gr. arrow out of my 63# recurve @ 30 inches.
My arrow performance on game is super so I'm really not looking to change anything.
Hope that is something along the lines of an answer.
:wavey:
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Mike, what is the set up did you try the gold tips with? I have some pro's 55/75 I've been wanting to play with.
Ryan
(Bob, tried the GT traditionals with the 300 up front and found them to be too weak for my setup. Couldn't cut the arrow down anymore. You might be right in the ball park with that setup though.
Was wondering when you would poke your nose in here.LOL
Mike)
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Charlie,
Where are you guys getting your 300 grain field points ?
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I recently saw that Kustom King has 300 grain screw in field points.
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Great thread Elknut..
Where can I get one of your DVD's mentioned above ?
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Bob, in some of the tests I did (too much to read I know--grin) the arrows that were the same weight from 600gn-700gn as I did a few of them had better penetration with the heavier head weight. In other words 2 arrows that weighed let's say 625gn, one with 165grn head & one with 250gn head but both arrows the same weight the 250gn head weight out penetrated the lesser one.
I've not hunted any game with a heavier than 205gn head weight, It already blows through elk, I personally see no need for more this way I can still maintain a flatter shooting arrow out to 30-35yds. As one guy put it, "avoid extremes" your setup & penetration will eventually be compromised!
champ38---www.elknut.com will show you the various DVDs out. Thanks!
ElkNut1
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Coaster(Ryan)- I'm shooting a 60" Morrison Shawnee recurve 54@27 with 300 up front. When I dropped to 250 they were flying pretty good. But the 300 were showing weak. I wanted to keep my arrow over 600 so thats why I switched to Arrow Dynamics. They fly great with my 300 up front. The GT's were smackin my riser. Hope this helps.
Eightwgt-Bob Morrison from Morrison Achery also carries the 300 grain field points. He's a sponsor on here.
Mike
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Hello nightowl1. Gotta love the Trad Gang. To answer your question, yes. You will get a penetration advantage. I don't like the trajectory of 13 grains/pound. The 480 gr arrow should be fine but I think you should find an arrow that flies true that's closer to 11 to 12 gpp. Get the test kit for tapered field points that range from 100 gr to 250 gr and find out for yourself what your tolerance is for trajectory.
Both Elknut and Apex know how to kill elk. But there is no arguement on the definition of sectional density. Higher SD will penetrate better than lower SD.
That's about as respectful as I could put it.
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I have finaly read this entire thread and I can't take it any more, I had to post.
Everyone, If you want to learn somthing about arrow penatration READ DR ASHBY'S REPORTS!!!
Nightowl1, you asked if there were any advantage to a 625gr 22%foc arrow over a 480gr 22%foc arrow out of an 46#@27" arrow. the answer is YES!!! it would penatrate better if everything else were equal and they were both tuned. However, trojectory would be poor compared to the 480gr arrow. A high FOC 480gr arrow properly tuned with a good sharp COC broadhead would be a great choice out of a 46# bow.
Elknut:
It sounds like you are starting to realize the advantage of High FOC and skinney carbon arrows. However you are way of base on wether a heavy arrow out prnatrates a light one. Yes there is a an arrow weight where there are diminishing returns but you are noware close to that (somewhere over 15gpp). You realy need to read all of Ashbys reports and then re read them.
I am sorry but your testing is not very scientific and is flowed. You are doing alot of guess-work due to poor scientific method. Example 1: your first test was between an 617gr 2018 with 200gr tip and 2216 footing & a 485gr mfx 500 with 200gr tip. Yes the one is hevier and should show beter penatration however all that is taken away due to the huge diameter of the 2216 footing, much lower FOC, and aluminum vrs carbon!! All this test told you was that one arrow out pennatrated the other. There was no controll almost everything was different between the two arrows.
Example 2: you compared two MFX arrows, a 617gr MFX400 with 200gr pt and a 485gr MFX500 with 200gr pt. You had three things the same arrow diameter, pt weight an length(27 1/4"). However there were also three things different; tune, FOC and weight. Yes the 617gr arrow was not tuned to the bow, that is why it broke. Unless you have a majec bow that shoots an MFX400 and MFX500 at the same length with the same pt weight the same? Also, how did you get that MFX400 to weigh 617gr? either you added weight tubes (which would have made it more stiff) or that is not the correct weight.
Sorry Elknut, but you are wrong on some of these tings and some of the info you are giving people is just wrong.
Don't get me wrong Elknut is a great guy and has helped alot of people be better elk hunters (including me). If you are serious about elk hunting you need to get his DVD's.
P.S. Sorry about the spelling, I can't spell and am afraid to use the spell ck. The last time I tryed to use the spell ck the popup blocker deleted my post. Just because I am paranoid dosen't mean that the computer isn't out to get me.
Steve
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Or you could just learn by doing.Sometimes experiance does not agree with written reports. ;) The reports are a good starting point for someone that lacks experiance.They were not handed down from the mountain like some seem to believe however. ;)
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Jeff Venable,
You asked several questions...and I think I can answer a couple of them.
The speed of the arrow is irrelevant, unless you are throwing it by hand.
AT NO POINT will a lighter arrow outpenetrate a heavier arrow. I think your point may have been you can shoot a lighter arrow further than you can a heavy arrow? That's true, but it won't penetrate.
You can try that out for yourself by shooting a kid's arrow ( to really make it exaggerated) at a target sixty or eighty yards away. It will literally bounce off the target butt most of the time. Now shoot a 600 grain arrow at the same target. You are going to get some penetration, sir.
Or, try throwing a ping pong ball at 150 feet per second at a snow bank..and then throw a golf ball at the same speed.. which one will go further into the snow?
Ed is not advising you to shoot 900 grains at North Carolina whitetails.
What he is doing is exaggerating all parameters by shooting huge game with heavy and light arrows and demonstrating that failures will occur most often the lighter you try to go, which for the last 25 years has been the trend in archery. His efforts have not been for TRADITIONAL ARCHERS, but for ALL ARCHERY HUNTERS. By a huge majority, those are people who shoot contraptions marketed to "go fast" cause they've made the argument that will win over everything else- unfortunately.
Shot placement, sharpness of head, type of head, and the size and configuration of the shaft are all contributing factors of varying import to the final result.
Just don't go buffalo hunting with 350 grain arrows and you'll be OK.
I don't see any reason to poo poo someone life's work that has been done up until now for the sole purpose of helping other hunters with no monetary contribution from anyone-using scientific principles - just because it doesn't pertain to 100 lb whitetails and turkeys that most of us spend our time hunting. His results are no less valid.
You rarely ever see cars running into big giant steel things that look like counterweights off of a stationary crane, but when they crash test cars that's what they run them into.
When they test airplanes do they fly them on the straight and level? Not hardly! They put them through some tremendous G-forces and try to make them fail, so you and I are safe when we fly on the straight and level.
Testing archery equipment is the same- isn't it? What's the difference between what Ed Ashby has done and what PSE does when they dry fire a bow 10,000 times in a row mechanically to TRY to make that bow fail? How else would you WANT your broadheaded arrow tested? On rabbits?
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thanks for the post Mr. Ray but i have one issue. I am not arguing the argument in general (because I am the initial poster with the question) but the strength of your last statement.
If "The speed of the arrow is irrelevant, unless you are throwing it by hand.", then the speed is relevant. At some speed heavier objects become more efficient than lighter ones and at some speed they will lose this advantage. A 4 lb arrow out of a 40# bow will not have the same impact as a 600 grain arrow.
A golf ball versus a ping pong ball I understand but what if you filled the ping pong ball to the point that it weighed 5 lbs and launched it with the same energy? I would expect the golf ball to go deeper because the gravity applied to the heavy ball would pull it down throw the snow creating more friction. It may have a further channel through the snow but that channel would be moving downward while the golf ball could be lodged deeper. Does that make sense?
You were looking at the extreme on the lighter side, this would be the extreme on the heavier. It works just the same.
I have heard all of these arguments before and thats what made me ask my question of where does this benefit fall.
My initial post was will i see a difference between 10.5 gpp and 13.8 gpp. I got some good replies and good thoughts. Of course I took Dr. Ashby into consideration. My final decision was not based on penetration though( From the discussion I feel both arrows will penetrate just as well on the game I am pursuing, its matter of how far they keep flying once they leave the animal) but on trajectory and accuracy. The drop of a 13.89 gpp arrow past 20-25 yards is just a little daunting for a guy like me. I like the flatter shooting arrow.
So am I ignoring someones life long work? Not at all! I will be shooting a razor sharp broadhead with a structuraly increased tip, with 20+% FOC, a minimum of 10.5 gpp, from a small diameter arrow, flying perfectly from a whisper quiet bow. It seems the only thing Dr. Ashby liked that I'm not using is higher total mass. The only thing wrong with that setup is if I shot the arrow backwards!
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Coby-
LOOK AT THE VERY TOP OF MY POST- that isn't your name, right?
I thought we were discussing reality, not theory. The speed of the arrow IS irrelevant( go back and read my post- AT THE YARDAGES WE USE FOR HUNTING) Not a mile downrange..not 300 yards downrange, not 100 yards downrange...not 50 yards downrange... as long as its coming out of a bow at a speed that will launch the heavy and the light arrows its irrelevant.
You cannot shoot a five pound arrow from any bow I have ever seen...taking it to the extreme, yes...that's what I did...but I took things to an extreme that will still function. You can shoot a 1200 grain arrow out of a bow..you cannot shoot a five pound arrow.
Just how far can you effectively shoot game? How far do you WANT to shoot game?
If you are that worried about ballistics they make guns for that purpose.
Otherwise, instead of worrying about 3 grains per inch, why not just gain the skills to get 5 yards closer and you can shoot a telephone pole at them?
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They were not handed down from the mountain like some seem to believe however.
:thumbsup:
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Ya remember the old outsert Beeman hunter shafts. shaft about the size of a knitting needle? Get a 35#@28" draw bow. leave the beeman 4060 shaft full length then load the front of the arrow up with enough weight to tune the arrow. last put a two balde 125 gr magnus up front, good and sharp.
If shot at a new foam stacked target, nothing else I have shoot out of the 35# out penetrated the old beeman hunter. So in think shaft friction must have sumpin to do with the amount of penetration. even with the outsert skinny slick shafts penetrate pretty dang well from a light bow.
rusty
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Well I thought i was polite with my statement, if not I apologize. This is a light hearted discussion about things that we love to do as a hobby, so lets ease up and enjoy the company of those who share our interest and views of what we have been blessed with. The minute this becomes work and a headache, I'm outta here.
I have enough things to devote my attention.
If you want a real hardlined debate on this, I'm goint to have to step out cause frankly I really don't care. Like i said I'm confident in my setup I just thought it was a neat discussion.
So have fun, joke around and lets not treat this like we are making a Traditional Bowhunting Constitution.
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Joker and Ray, thanks for the voices of reason. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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"They were not handed down from the mountain like some seem to believe however."
Isn't that the truth, just ask Dr Ashby how much time and effort he has in all that testing and recording all that info. No, this info is strictly for people that want to learn and come up with the best arrow they can shoot. YOU WILL HAVE TO THINK FOR YOURSELF TO GET THE FULL POTENTIAL FROM THIS INFORMATION. That's right, noware in Dr. Ashby's reports will he tell you what is the best arrow for you. You will have to use his findings and deside for yourself what kind of arrow you want to build and shoot. These findings only tell you what effects different aspects of an arrow had on penatration. IE. arrow weight, FOC, arrow integraty, arrow diameter, broadhead design,...
The great thing about penatration info is it can be used by everyone!!! Just for some examples, you can use aspects of ashby's findings to get more penatration if:
1. you shoot a light weight bow.
2. you have a short draw.
3. you want to shoot a big broadhead to get more blood on the ground.
4. you want to shoot a lighter arrow for beter trojectory.
5. you are hunting large, hevey game.
Just remember no one said that you need to use all of ashby's findings and make the ultimate penatrating arrow. That is unless you are going to hunt something like cape buffalo.
Steve
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I can tell you for a fact.....that there can (no theory) come a point of diminishing returns when adding weight to your arrow (assuming we're talking about all arrows being shot from the same bow). If you've never gone through this exercise (all you need is a chrono, lots of tips and a calculator), I can see how you'd make statements of "absolutes". If you have, you probably snicker when you read said, like I do.
Your average human doesn't have the mental capacity (nor does he need it, for such a seemingly trivial exercise) to determine whether to utilize KE or momentum for where to set the bar. You needn't be a scientist (and Ashby isn't, either). If you continue to add weight to your arrow.....your speed will diminish to the point that your KE will go DOWN. No theory. There IS a point.
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GMMAT is right, when going up in arrow weight there is a point where KE is at it's max. However KE is not the same as momentum and does not totally deside penatration. KE=0.5mv^2 & M=mv. KE is more efected by velocity than momentum because velocity is squared.
But for all practial perposes there is a point where a heavy arrow is not practial. Where this is depends on what you want from your setup.
Steve
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And Ray.....
I JUST noticed that you singled me out. I made no "poo-poo" statements to the man's works. I simply stated....well....it's pretty simple.
You can talk amongst yourselves, now. I'm out.
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Well you guys have managed to get another thread locked down....
Singling people out and getting sideways with them is not the way to do things...