Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: TheFatboy on May 26, 2009, 01:07:00 PM
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I got my new longbow this wednesday - a T-Hawk Diamond 'SS'. Yesterday, after a shooting session, I took a slightly moist ragcloth (and I litterally mean slightly moist, not wet), and gently cleaned the bow limbs.
And then... I noticed that the bamboo on the back started looking darker. The yew on the belly didn't change color at all. My first thought was: "Oh hell no, don't tell me that I ruined the wood now?" - so my question is... did I? I mean, the wood is covered with fiberglass laminations, so how is it even possible?
Note that I quickly grabbed a dry ragcloth to fix any possible damage, and then waxed the limbs afterwards.
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You should be able to drown the bow all day in the pouring rain, trip into a beaver pond on your way back from hunting, forget you left it in the bed of the truck on your way home, get home wipe it off and it should be as good as the day you got it. If not something was wrong with it, send it back and get a new one from them.
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Even a wipe down with a wet cloth should not have had any effect on the bow. I have had bows out in pouring rainstorms and came home and wiped them down and put them on the rack to dry with no ill effects.
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Well, it performed quite alright today. Still looks to me like the limbs are darker than usual at some places. Even looks like it has a few brown spots. I fear the worst...
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Any change in color or spotting is the results of a poor finish. The finish is meant to protect the wood from the elements. I'd be talking to someone!
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Give Three Rivers a call and let them know I'm sure they will be happy to help. I'm also in the camp that you can shower with good bow and still be able to shoot it without a worry. Many are the day I have sat in the rain with mine and no problem.
Allan
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Just mailed Shawn from 3 Rivers. Awaiting a reply.
I really, really hope that there's nothing wrong :(
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The THawks are bullet proof-could there have been some fine dust on the bow perhaps? I have had bows accumulate some wierd stuff from the machinery in shipping no matter how well packed.
Not only is there the finish for protection but a layer of glass over any wood, and then finish on top of that.
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It also seems like a very solid bow to me. I really don't understand. It could also be the wax that I put on afterwards, but that would be weird, since the wax is made for wood and leather.
Dust on the bow? When I recieved it, you mean?
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Andreas,
There is no way that you could have harmed the bow with a damp rag. Bjorn is exacly right that the glass over the wood is layer of protection, besides the finish. I could see that wiping it down would change the appearance but its not going to penetrate. I've also hunted for days in the rain and have yet to ruin a bow. I think your good there. Now 100% deet will put a hurt on your bow finish. I've ruined the finish on a couple with deet :knothead: Don't try that one! dino
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DEET? You mean, insect-repellant? :biglaugh:
I could imagine the bow not liking that!
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I hate when bugs bite my bow.
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Nothing a little spray paint won't take care of. :D
Really there is no way you did anything to hurt the bow or make changes in color.Maybe you were so excited you never got a good look at the bow untill you washed it. :)
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"Maybe you were so excited you never got a good look at the bow untill you washed it."
It may be so James, it may be so. It still performs, so I might just be imagining this. But I still find the color of the tonkin cane bamboo weird.
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My Tomahawk SS has been in several rainstorms :rolleyes: It has never shown any change. The Bamboo has some streaks in it though. Not from the moisture, it's just the color of the bamboo.
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Bretto: Unable to see pictures :(
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Ya I had to delete them I couldn't get them to work. When My Daughter gets home I'll try and add them back. Sorry, I'm still a little slow on Computer stuff.
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That's alright. Just glad you're taking the time to comfort my soul :)
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Tonkin cane can have streaks and blotches in it, it is natural. Do not worry about it. Your bow is fine.
Danny
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Truly? Is it natural? You saved my day :pray:
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I would put it on the bow rack and let it set for a spell then while you are waiting order 2, 3 or 4 more bows just to have on hand that you can compare it to for color change. Least that's what I'd tell my wife if it was me...
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I would make sure I talk to 3 rivers. If the finish is delaminating you will get bubbles underneath and it will look like it has different coloration. I don't want to panic you but when resin separates it kinda looks like what you describe. If you push on the spots do they get bigger?
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It's not spots, just change in color, and then the wood browned a few places.
I wouldn't be worrying if it the wood was just darkening, but it really doesn't look too good.
Shawn from 3 Rivers just responded and told me that I shouldn't be using any harsh chemicals with solvents. But the wax I used contains solvent. I still don't see how this can be an issue, when the wax is made for protectimg wood and leather.
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It's not spots, just change in color, and then the wood browned a few places.
I wouldn't be worrying if the wood was just darkening, but it really doesn't look too good.
Shawn from 3 Rivers just responded and told me that I shouldn't be using any harsh chemicals with solvents. But the wax I used contains solvent. I still don't see how this can be an issue, when the wax is made for protectimg wood and leather.
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Silly doublepost.
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bottom line,if i had just purchased a new bow,and things had happened as you described,i would contact customer service were it came from,tell them i was unhappy,send it back and get another or a refund.you will never be satisfied with it,and always wonder about what is going on with the finish,lams,ect.in passing,i purshased a ilf bow with an aluminum film dipped riser,had some discoloration after glueing on a strikeplate nad rug rest,mentioned it while making a different order,they insisted on sending me another riser,even when i told them it was no big worry to me,as it was camo colored anyway.point is,thats what the warranty is for.regards,robert :thumbsup: :campfire: :coffee:
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True, twotimer...
But I also think consumers should be responsible for their own actions. No offense...but I think I'd ask before I put ANYTHING on my bow (especially a compound containing a solvent).
If it were me.....I'd call them and tell them exactly what I did.....and ask them for their recommendation. Might need to be sanded and re-sprayed.
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I quote Shawn from 3 Rivers Archery:
"You have to understand that the wood for the limbs is sealed between two
psc's of fiber glass and then 3 coats of clear on top of that. What you
are doing is smearing or even taking off the clear coat on the bow by
using the mineral spirits and turpentine. You can not use the wax and
turpentine on that kind of bow to clean it. Use only soap and water or a
furniture polish to clean the bow. If you continue to use the products
that you are using you will ruin the clear coat."
:(
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WOW! Mineral spirits? Turpentine? Thats bad ju-ju...
You better do as Shawn says and stop doin' that cause your cutting the finish off
Rusty
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In an effort to get your mind away from what it sounds like you did, the bow isn't ruined. The 3 coat finish, whatever it is, is probably less than 8-10 mils. thick total. Not much there. Its really a 'finish coat' and probably a satin which is between gloss and flat. The fiber glass itself is the protection for the veneers and core of the bow. You'd have to get some pretty tough chemicals to eat the glass and resins. Mineral spirts or turpentine ain't going to cut it!
Shoot the bow and enjoy it. In the mean time start boning up on how to put a fresh finish coat back on your bow, its really simple to do. Ask Shawn what the top coat is that was put on your bow from the bowyer, very lite finish sanding with maybe 600 grit to give the next coat something to bite to and spray another coat over what this there. It will even everything back to the uniform look you originaly had I'm sure.
Rusty
p.s. Practice on scrap first ;)
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Pack the bow up and send it back and let them take a look at it. I dont know anybody involved in trad archery that wouldnt go out of there way to help you and i bet there no different.
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Tater John: Thank you for all the info! I was very afraid that the wood and fiberglass had taken irreversible damage. Very happy to hear, that this can all be fixed. You soothened my troubled heart :archer:
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I'm confused. The first post mentioned changing colors after using a damp rag. Now it appears you are using some sort of compound that contains solvents and / or turpentine. Lol - what the heck?
For those that recommend returning the bow - how on earth is that a 3Rivers problem? If someone buys a car and decides to clean it with a belt sander, is that the fault of the auto dealer? If you buy a steak and burn it while grilling, is that the fault of the butcher?
I'm with one of the previous posters - I'd stop coating the bow with stuff it obviously doesn't like and try to enjoy shooting it. Heck, perhaps the altered (and apparently somewhat mottled) appearance will help camouflage you and your weapon.
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I wiped it off with a moist rag. It turned dark, even when I wiped the moist off again. Silly as I was, I feared that I had done something that I shouldn't have. So I did something that I definetely NOT should have done. Waxed it with a furniture wax, which happened to contain solvents and turpentine. Two things that I didn't know would harm the bow. After all, it was furniture wax. But I'm smarter now.
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Well I don't know what kind of finish they use but it must not be fullerplast.None of that stuff will touch an epoxy finish.Sounds like soft laquer or poly to me.
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I wouldn't know either James. I'll ask though.
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The fiberglass is on the front and back of the limbs. Moisture can still be absorbed on the sides of the limbs if the finish is missing. It seems to me that it would take a considerable amount of wetness to do that - like a deliberate soaking.
I'm sure that you in no way harmed the fiberglass on front and back. You might have damaged the finish but that's hard to tell without seeing. Any real damage from water would have to be absorbed from the sides of the limbs. Don't look for just darkening (that's subjective and you're looking at the bow with a more critical eye now than you did before) but also look for signs of delamination which could be bubbles or light colored spots that appear between the clear glass and the bamboo. Make sure any dark "spots" are not just color variations in the bamboo but are truly inconsistent with the rest of the limbs composition.
These bows are not that sensitive. They can take quite a bit of hard use including exposure. Unless there is a manufacturer defect you'd almost have to try to cause the type of damage we're discussing.
In the end, if it bothers you pack it up and send it back for their inspection. It would be worth the cost of shipping to have a legitimate eye of inspection. You probably won't be happy until you do.
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Originally posted by Jedimaster:
In the end, if it bothers you pack it up and send it back for their inspection. It would be worth the cost of shipping to have a legitimate eye of inspection. You probably won't be happy until you do.
Good advice.
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Was it water or something else that you used on it?
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Jedimaster: That's just not as simple as it may sound. I live in Denmark. That's across the Atlantic. But I will definetely look for bubbles or light colored spots :)
Stone Knife: Not exactly. I moisted it with a rag, and immediately thought that it was a bad move. So I waxed it, and later found out that the wax hurt the finish.
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Something's fishy here, furniture polish?
The clear finish on that high dollar bow has got
to be polyurethane at least, epoxy at best, and
mineral spirits, turpentine or even lacquer thinner should do no harm to either.
If I had any doubts at all, I would package and return the bow, and the let 3R make a decision.
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Well, as far as I know now after hearing the responses in this thread, I'm pretty sure (not entirely though), that I only smeared the finish, which would explain the brown "rash" on the fiberglass. I tried to remove it with 93% ethanol today - as Shawn suggested - but with no luck.
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I have used a small amount of acetone to wipe off the sticky stuff left after I remove a rest. I have done this to alot of different bows, encluding 3 Tomahawks I have owned. I have never had a problem with it effecting the finish. That being said, it would take alot to harm the finish on most of the bows being made today. Water or furniture polish should have no effect on the finish........
Send it back to 3R for peace on mind....
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Sending it back will not be an option. But I understand that you think this is the best solution.
If only the finish is smeared (which it seems like, since solvents and turpentine shouldn't be able to harm either the fiberglass or the wood), I should be able to correct it. I just don't exactly know how :(
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Andreas
Do you have any other bows and why cant you send it back and let them take a look at it.
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I have no other bows of the same quality. The main reason I can't and won't send it back, is that I would have to wait for months before I'd recieve it again. The second reason is, that UPS charged me 200 dollars for their fastest shipping (which I thought was only 40 dollars), and I both can't and won't pay more money for shipping.
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If you are pretty sure that the bow is not damaged i wouldnt sweat it to much. I bought my first bow two months ago and scratched the s*** out of the tip. It almost killed me when i did it but there are worst things that could happen.
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There's a difference between scratching the tip and dissolving the finish :D - but I get your point!
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I was trying to put your mind at ease but yea you are right there is a big difference. Is there anybody around there close that could take a look at it.
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None that I know of, unfortunately. Google is my friend though.
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What was the brand of wax you used that had solvents in it? I'd just like to know what it was. I would quess it would be for use on hardwood floors to clean and put a wax finish on in one application.
Shawn give you any idea what the finish was? I find it hard to believe the finish reacted the way it did from mineral spirits or turpentine, their not hot solvents. But thats OK, Im not challenging ya...
By the way, we're alot friendlier then 'google' :campfire:
Rusty
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The wax is made for protecting mainly oak and pinewood. That may be why...
Haven't asked him yet, actually. I still hope the damage is only cosmetic. Looks like it though, with that brown smearing on the limbs. Hopefully it haven't affected the bow itself, and lowered it's shooting abilities :(
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andreas,to correct it your self,the easiest way would be to sand the finish down by hand.if i was doing it,i would start with,120,or ,240 grit sandpaper,and sand the finish off by hand.after i was satisfied that everthing was down to bare wood on riser and sides of limbs,i would use tru-oil for a new finish.apply a coat evenly using fingers to spread smothly and evenly,let dry,takes about 4/6 hours,sand lightly,repeat 6/7 more times,after the last coat is applyed buff it out with 0000 steel wool. i use tru-oil for the finish on the bows i build,and have used it on aprox.50 bows with no problems.i have also used thunderbird,its an excellent finish,but imo,the tru-oil is as good and not near as expensive.regards,robert.ps,if you don't have acess to tru-oil and want to try that route i will gladly send you a bottle.regards,robert :thumbsup: :coffee:
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I have had my Thawk in the snow and sleet, rain and thunder, etc... the things are built to last a lifetime. You should be fine with it.
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Robert: Thank you for the advice :archer:
I think that Tru Oil should be available here in Denmark. If not, I will tap you on the shoulder :)
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anytime my friend,regards,robert.ps,as stated above,it takes some harsh solvents to cut the finish on custom bows,i'v owned a "LOT" of bows,and used acetone to clean off glue that i have used on arrow rest's,strike plates,,and to clean off string wax residue,and i have never mared a finish.i truly hope it works out to your satisfaction.robert :wavey: :campfire: :coffee:
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I wonder if the brown smear isn't color thats in the wax? Try some acetone on the area with the brown smear using a white cotton rag and see if the brown doesn't lift. If the finish was being disolved from you earlier applications of wax, the bow limbs should have become sticky. Denatured alcohol would be another good cleaning solvent thats no way going to touch the finish. If it did the finish was wrong in the first place and I doubt thats the case.
Rusty
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Acetone sounds like a good idea. Wonder if I have any...
By the way, the fiberglass layer on the lower bow limb (where the brown smear is worst), looks slightly thinner than the other fiberglass layers. I have no idea though, if this was already the case before I waxed the bow, so... just seems strange. Can it be cause of the dissolved coating?
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The lower bow limb on the back of the bow - the bamboo side - that is :)
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Get a cotton ball or corner of a rag wet with something from around the house, rubbing alcohol, lighter fluid(naptha) don't use gasoline and try to remove the brown in a small spot about the size of a dime. Might as well do a test spot and get it over with. If the finish is compromised(I thinking its not) then your going to want to refinish some day anyhow. I don't know a thing about glass thickness and won't comment on that, other than its probably right.
Rusty
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I've rubbed it with alcohol yesterday and the day before yesterday. Looks better, feels smoother, but the brown spots are still there. I think acetone or WD40 spray might be a good idea.
It still shoots well though, I shot an arrow into the tree behind my target today, and couldn't get it out, no matter how hard I tried. And then it broke :banghead:
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WD40 is good stuff I forget about. Its good for tape residue but still takes alot of elbow grease. I'm lazy and go for something stronger. I think your on the right path and are going to get it worked out without refinishing :thumbsup
Rusty
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Hopefully that's the case :)
Found out about the finish BTW. It's Thunderbird Sealer (Polyurethane). So it's quite tough.
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I keep a light coat of Turtle Wax or Mcquires on all my bows and arrows including old and new, one of which is a TH Diamond. Wouldn't leave home without it!
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I refinish every used bow I get. Hardly any work at all. Like many have suggested. Lightly sand the bow and get all the wax you put on, off. You don't have the get to the wood. Get all the wax off and spray with an outdoor Poly, give it a light coat and sand with 00 stell wool then give it another coat and you are good to go
( Just a side note, next time you have a problem with a bow don't go on a website complainig there is a problem with a bow when you don't know what you are talking about, you didn't have to say what kind of bow it was. Do you think they appreciate you basically saying to the world they have a crappy finish)
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I do not record mentioning that the finish was crappy. Neither do I record stating that there was a problem with the bow. Only after I, myself, made a mistake. I love the bow, it's absolutely fabulous.
Thank you for commenting though :)