Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Dick in Seattle on June 23, 2009, 12:56:00 PM
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I did something nice, psychologically, this weekend. I always tell myself that I will go out on the course and treat it "ethically", i.e. I won't take a shot I wouldn't take at a live animal. However, I find that very, very hard to actually do. The pressure to take all the shots from where marked is great. I'll do it for some of the obviously too long for me shots, but not for a whole course.
Of course, shooting this way means not shooting for score (I never do anyway) and "stalking" each target to the distance you feel you should shoot it at. That can be even harder to make yourself do if you're with a serious group. Fortunately, I rarely find myself with a serious group 8^)
Anyway, I found a set of six really heavy arrows, 480 grain woods, that had a light enough spine that Closet really shot them well. Closet is 32#, so that's 15 gr. per pound! It gave up a fair amount of trajectory, but they flew straight and solidly, landing with a most satisfying "thunk" as compared to my usual aluminum knitting needles. I found myself shooting them very consistently and I decided to really shoot an "ethical" round with them.
I ignored the stakes and ribbons and approached each target to the distance that felt "right". That could be controlled by distance or by the shot setup, i.e. opening in the brush, angle at which the animal was set, etc.
Man, that round was fun! I was making my shots with confidence and really feeling good about it all. I could see that I had, over time, gone from someone who enjoyed throwing arrows around the woods to someone who, within genuinely reasonable limitations, could go out and shoot and know that they could hit what they were shooting at.
Of course, I will continue to go out and shoot from the stakes to push myself, but I really want to include an "ethical round" at every shoot from now on. It's very satisfying. Try it... you'll like it.
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Dick, We Do the same here in new york, I never carry a score card,and shoot each target as if I was hunting, ranges up here set the trad targets way to close also!! We like to take turns picking a spot and or situation to shoot from,loads of fun and great pratice!! Jim
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I do that sometimes too. Problem is lots of "not hunting-score fanatics" start laughing / making fun of you. But whatsoever, i like it.
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I have been trying to think of a way to shoot a course where you can keep score by giving or taking away points depending on from where you choose to shoot.
For instance, you get more points if you choose to shoot from a 25 yd stake, but if you miss, you have to deducted points.
What do you think?
Bona
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I wish I had a traditional 3D range around my neck of the woods. I went to the only 3D range close to my home last week. There was not a shot under 22 yards and most were 35 to 40 yards. It was fun to try, but then again it makes it hard when you get flack from the wheel bow shooters for missing. I asked if I could shoot a little closer to the targets. I was told NO shoot where the stakes are only!!!!!! I won't go back, because in a hunting situation I would not take a shot over 20 yards. I really am at my best from 10 to 15 yards. I know that's not far but that is where I love to pound a target or a deer from.
Bryan Horner
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We had a shoot here a couple years ago,that had a neet way of doing it.There were severall stakes set up at varying distances.You could pick the stake you were comfortable shooting from.Each Stake distance had a set number of points that could be scored.The further stakes had higher points and the closer ones,had less.
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Most shoots I go to have a Hunter class. Shoot what you want from where you want. It usually cost less because you are not in it for the prize/money.
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Shoot from where you want ! I havn't kept score for over 20 year. Who cares what others think !!!!
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Our local course has 4 stakes: Pro-Hunter-Traditional-Cub. Works great for us.
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If you are paying for a fun round shoot from whereever you want as long as it is safe.I have never shot anywhere where someone had a problem with that.We mark fun round on the score cards for those that are not shooting for score.It cost less at most shoots if you are just there to play.
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I've had similar thoughts to Bona's. On a 3-D course, rather than scoring 5-8-10, I would like to see negative scoring for hitting outside the kill zone. You would have an option to shoot closer, but the points for hitting in the kill zone would be less than if you shot from the marked spot. For example, you might be offered a target at 25 yards with scoring of minus5, 8, and 10, or you could take the shot at 15 yards with scoring of minus2, 4, and 5.
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Lots of great ideas here.... Most of the 3D set ups are for compound shooters anyway. I also never keep score at those shoots. Love to "mix it up" with the cover and take Real Hunting Shots.
Seems to me I have a better time at Trad Only Shoots. Ranges are close and shots are still interesting.
... mike ...
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I quit keeping score at 3D shoots years ago.
I got a lot of odd looks and remarks, when I said I didn't want a score card. They just didn't get it :banghead:
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We have had shoots where the scoring was 5 for anything in the 8 ring, -5 for anything outside the 8 ring and 0 for a miss. Allows for you to try a make "killing" shots on every target. At our club you can shoot a fun round and shoot from where you want. As far a score, I alwasy keep mine but don't always turn it in. Score has always let me monitor my progress, which I like to do. On Tuesday evenings we have a group that meets and we set up some targets and take turns picking spots for fun. No scores kept then. Tonight we have 20 targets already set and ready to go.
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>>>prize/money. <<<
I have to assume that's for real? My God, I'm dismayed and disappointed. I honestly had never heard of it in trad shooting. Trophies, hand made prizes or a blanket choice, yes, but not money. When money starts getting involved, a sport changes. Sorry for my reaction, obviously, it's just my opinion, but I'm truly surprised. I guess you can tell that.
Shakes head and goes back down to shop to finish another simple bow that, hopefully, will never be shot for score.
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We've had a shoot or two, years back, where we did the 5pts for a kill, 0 for a complete miss, and -5 for a wound of any kind. The couple different things we did, though, was to stake out a string line. The shooter could stop and shoot at any point along the line, but he could not go back to a better spot. Also, from the stopping point he had 5 mississippi's - counted out by the others in the group - to draw an arrow from the quiver, nock it and make the shot. We eliminated all classes, so everyone, compound and trad, had the same shot choices and time to take each opportunity. All the shots were in "realistic" hunting situations and distances. It was amazing how this type of shoot really levels the bar, and is a real eye opener for all to test themselves.
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I should add, that anymore at almost any shoot I attend, I shoot from where I want, and never keep score. Just my thing.
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I'm having a blast shooting trad. 3D. I keep score every time, because honestly I wanna be able to track my progress.
Nothing wrong with keeping score. The guys I've been fortunate enough to shoot with are contenders at every shoot we go to. They're also hunters, first and foremost. So am I.
But trad. 3D is a blast. Doesn't bother me at all that some choose to not keep score. I don't understand why it would bother others if "we" do.
It's supposed to be fun!
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Dick in Seattle
Yep shooting for money or a buckle/jacket on triple crown shoots is common in WY, Northern CO, and Western NE. I believe its because there are no Trad only shoots (just not enough of us especally in WY), So all classes and winners of classes are treated the same. Usually a payback of say 45-50% of the clubs take. It goes by the number of payed shooters in each class, they may pay 3 places or 10 depending on how may sign up.
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I don't keep score but I don't chastise those that do. If I shoot a field round I always keep score, so it's all a personal thing. 3D for me is merely a fun game and frankly I know whether or not I made a killing shot without some ambiguous scoring ring.
Dick....it's only unethical if the 3D target runs off and dies...and you can't find it. :knothead:
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That shoot of Mark Baker's sounds like real fun!
I never used to keep score, but in the last couple of years I have started, just to get a numeric value on my so-called progress. Of course, I cannot compare the values of my home course, set up for compounders, mostly, and those of say, ATAR, where they are designing shots for us. But over the years, each course compared against last year's, I should get a guess at whether I am getting any better or just holding my own. I will not entertain the thought of regression! :eek:
The thing to guard against, in this stake-free freestyle true-hunters' three-dee mode of attack, is the tendency to sneak into the "proper" spot for a shot, while in actuality getting to the same seventeen-yard shot that I am most comfortable with for every target on the course. In the fun frame of mind, and not really being that good a judge of exact yardage, I find that that is my tendency. The comfortable spot is the one that I have practiced the most.
Push come to shove, winning a shoot is not high on my "to do list". I like to see if I can make the shot that has been set up by someone else, and decide for myself if that is one that I would take. 3-D is basically a game of HORSE. It is not beyond me to sneak up and take the slam-dunk on a target after everyone has shot, depending on the group and if there are a bunch of toe-tapping finger-drummers behind me. Or arrows to search for... :rolleyes:
Killdeer
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I'd venture to say that the majority of folks in our local trad only club don't turn in a score at our monthly shoots. I keep it to keep track of any progress, as others have already stated. The folks I shoot most with keep up with it the first time through a course, but the second time is a game of alternating who picks the spot to shoot from and then making the shot.
At our shoot in August, we're planning to use the Fred Bear Ethical Scoring plan. Should be eye-opening...
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Our club has done what we call hunter scoreing.You get a +1 for a killing shot[heart,lungs,liver] a 0 for a miss and a -2 for a wound. After a 30 target shoot and someone wins with a 9 its a real eye opener!!! But real good practice for taking your time and picking a spot.
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I have been shooting that way for the last five years. It gives you your killing range and you should make at least 80 percent kill shots in your comfort zone. If it is at 15 yards than that is where you should be taking your shots ar game animals.If you are shooting a 30 target course with the normal scoring, 10,8 and 5 you should be shooting at least 230 or you are shooting too far back. I shoot by myself usually and shoot at the stakes if there is a suitable backstop for missed arrows. No score cards and no frustration.
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sounds like great fun..thats what it's all about..
Horner,I wouldn't give up going to the shoot there.see if you can grab a couple buds to go with next time,if not just go around by yourself and tell them you're not shooting for score.and shoot from where you are comfortable.my own opinion,I think shooting 3d targets is great practice for the real deal..
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You are supposed to keep score? And shoot from the stakes? Oops!
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I havent been to a 3D course in ages, dont even know if there are any around my area anymore to be honest. That being said I do enjoy a round of 3D at a good course in the woods but I was never a score keeper. I found that too many courses had at least 20% of the shots set up with impossible to justify conditions whether that was extreme range, poor shot angle or obstructions. I also ran into one that had shots set up specifically to eat arrows (the guy would comb the course several times a week and retrieve arrows that were lost and SELL them back!!!) For my own part I always just shot the course as I would have hunted the course, passing on the ridiculous shots and scoring myself on whether that animal would have been killed in a quick and humane manner. It is just my opinion here but I will say that in my way of thinking a hit in the kill zone (read that as a killing shot that would have taken out the vitals not the actual circle on the foam) was worth 1 a miss worth 0 and a bad hit worth about -10. I have really taken a dislike to the current trend of long shots and poor shot placement on game, especially on film. I say fine if you can shoot a target butt from 60 yards but I have never had a target just jump out of the way of my arrow or for that matter even move a little. Ive seen whitetail deer do some pretty amazing things at just 10 yards at the release of an arrow let alone the eternity it would take for an arrow to cover 6 times that distance. Honestly 3D is fun for me and really thats about it, some people however have to take it to a competitive level and eventually you start competing for prizes, trophies and money. Thats when it becomes less about realistic practice for hunting and more about making the shots hard enough to challenge the most proficient archers with the best possible gear built around 3D shooting.
The only competition I want when I shoot my bow is between me and my intended target animal and it is to that end that I practice not a score card.
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As said above, it is most important above all to have FUN... thats what keeps us in this sport. Good people,good fun!!!!!!
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I like to compete with my buddies. We keep score and get bragging rights if we win against each other. That makes it fun for us. Lot's of good natured ribbing and trash talking. Not keeping score is fine if that is what you enjoy. I just like the competitive nature of most any game I play. I turn 50 in a few weeks, maybe I'll outgrow it soon.
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At our clubs open shoots we have a challenge stake,hunter stake, traditional stake, and youth stake. That challenge stake can be 50 yrds. At our trad only shoot one stake you can always move up. We are thinking about having a challenge stake on some of our shots at our trad shoot. Many folks like the challenge of the shot but for new folks being heavily challenged on each shot may not be the way to keep them in the circle, so to speak. To many lost & broken arrows along with 0's when your out trying to have some fun stops being fun after a while. I'm lucky enough to live close to a range that has 28 outside targets on walk through ranges, I get to shoot hunting shots all the time. I want to go to a 3D that challenges me and try shots that I would not try in real hunting. I like to push my limits so I know my limits.
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I look at scoring as a way of measuring what I am capable of doing. How do I know what I am are capable of doing if I never push my limits by taking difficult and long shots? I feel the place that tells me the most is on the practice range, with the pressure of people watching (i.e., at a shoot). I feel that is the best test for hunting I can get. Besides, it is fun to watch an arrow travel 70 yards down range at a large animal target.
At the broadhead shoots I used to go to in the 1970's, we would count kill shots (get a K for a shot in the vitals). You would get an x for a heart shot. No negatives for wounded animals (occasionally you would have shots that a miss or wound ment a broken or bent arrow). Most k's wins the round, if there is a tie in k's, use the x as a tie breaker.
This is the best scoring system to measure hunting ability that I have found. Even now, I peridically keep track of the percentage of Ks I shoot. I also track it by range and have specific goals for each range- for example, my goal is 95% Ks at under 20 yards. I rarely keep track of points.
In about 1980 the club I was in went to point systems to seperate out the compound shooters as there were to many shooter with all Ks using compounds. When it was still difficult to find the winning shooter, shot ranges started getting longer. When the club bought 3d targets in about 1985, the shots got longer to preserve the expensive targets. I miss the old broadhead siloette shoots.
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Thanks for all the responses, guys. Lots of neat ideas there and it's nice to see I'm not alone. For you guys who score seriously and compete, I'm certainly not putting you down. More power to you. I'm just of a mind set to avoid adding a tension source to something I do to relax. Darn near had a heart attack in 1969 while defending a bench rest championship and haven't scored much of anything since. That said, i really like ronw's +1, 0, -2 system. That'd be an eye opener for sure.
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Dick, at the TBW rendezvous this year they plan on having the Viking Shoot again which uses that scoring system of + and -.
Besides, you could get a chance of wearing that goofy Viking outfit. ;)
You would look like Wilford Brimley in a Viking movie. :biglaugh:
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The course closest to me only has one set of stakes out as well. Usually I'll take 10 paces from where ever the stake is and take my shot from there. Sometimes I'll forget completely about the stakes and take all the shots while sitting or leaning against a tree.
I'm not lookin to be a prize winning 3D shooter, I am however looking to improve my shooting, and practice on as realistic (for me) a hunting shot as I can.
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When it comes to scoreing, Im really a to each his own kind of guy, it really depends on if I want to shoot my olympic style recurve or get out one of the martins and just have some fun.
But I really think that the problem with most 3d ranges is that compound shooters set up the shoots and they dont take into account that some people shoot without sights and let-off, and an ethical shot for them is not a big deal.
And I use to shoot for the prize, but i would be happy to even shoot a 3d out here.
Larry
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i shoot to kill..hell with the score..i try and put myself in the bad situations on targets then make the ethical shot required.some 3d courses are comepletely set up just for the wheelie bows and do not even consider the traditionalist.
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Shot the "sting(rope shoot) with -1 for a vital hit, 0 for a miss, and minus 5 for a wound shot" Many times in the 60's and 70's. Great eyeopener! Try that scoring sometime!You dan score that way on your own at a 3-d shoot.
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The Fred Bear Sports Club had an "ethical" scoring system.
I believe it was +5 for a kill zone hit- minus 5 if you wound, and zero if you miss.
Traditional Bowhunters of Georgia used that system for its first shoot of the year for many years.
I always though that was a better way to shoot..made you think as if you were in the field, and a life was at stake.
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I guess I'm a little more competitive then I like to admit. Nothing wrong with being competitive either for that matter. I'm like Killdeer in that I like to keep score to keep track of how I'm shooting. Keeping score can be a real eye opener. AND, it feels good to know when you've shot well.
Bona
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Shot my 1st trad 3d course last weekend. I was amazed that the easy 20 yard shots in my backyard and the 20 yard shots on the range were so different. What I mean is at home I drill a target consistently at 20 but at the course a 20 yard shot became much more difficult.
Half of the course I believe I shot poorly due to not wanting to look like a goof amongst the new friends I was shooting with. Too late it dawned on me that that they were having a good time and I was taking it too seriously. I loosened up and actually managed to place 2nd in my very first trad 3d shoot.
What I found out was trad shooters sure had a lot more fun and constantly praised good shots and encouraged after bad shots.
In keeping with the intent of this thread I did notice I would shoot for a kill shot only to find out it wasn't in the vitals on some of the targets according to the lines marking the vitals. Some of the distances were too far for a real live shot but I looked it as a challenge to see how I would do. Bottom line is I know 20 yards is about as far as I want to shoot at an animal for real.
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I have two world class field ranges here were I live and some world class shooters here.Even hosted the world field trials twice.I shoot from the cub stakes and some guys will snicker and laugh but the real shooter have always respected me.Even when I shoot wheels and no sights some would laugh.But now even more.The real archers,guys that win shoots like redding and have shoot on US mens team understand.One even will hunt with Lb and flint heads.But the thing that make me laugh is when the hunt comes around my frezzer is always full and theirs is not.Only because the don't pratice real hunting shoots.
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We have some fun shooting a hunter round scored as follows : 10 for the pro-ring (inner kill) 5 for the kill, -5 for a wound and of course 0 for a miss. You only get to shoot a second shot if you wound or miss with 3 arrows max at each target! Really fun, bad day will see big negative scores! I find it really makes you focus on that inner kill though!!
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There are few good 3-D shoots of any type in this area now and the increasingly rare trad shoots seem to have less of a following.
The evolution of gear and methodology towards 'archery in a can' (speed, synthetics, and precision over fun and simplicity) has helped make the average 3-D shoot a sport for long-range target shooters, not for hunters or families or friends just wanting some outdoor shooting fun in preparation for fall hunting excursions. As a group undertaking, archery in general and traditional archery in particular seems to be losing its identity as it steadily downplays the home-style 'tradition' while promoting compound-style methods, materials and mindsets. People are becoming confused and in some ways apathetic about what its all about. Those not wanting to lose the 'old ways' are frustrated with the new traditional compound mentality, scared by it, or simply bored with it.
Still, there may be ways to put variety and common sense back into the average shoot. Using less expensive target mats or haybales with paper dot targets for longer shots (field archery), mixed with plastic 3-D targets for 'ethical' hunting practice on simulated animals (close range and challenging angles), within the same shoot, might be satisfying for both hunters and target shooters while helping control costs. Having pot-luck meals (everyone contributes and shares) might make shoots more community oriented, as would better support of shoots/clubs by local business and public organizations who could benefit from increased recognition and advertising.
3-D shooters have become, as is reflective of society in general, a 'What's in it for me' type of citizen subset. Maybe its time to again think more about establishing old-fashioned community values in archery gatherings and think less about personal winnings and adorations.
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:clapper:
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My club over here in Australia just has bale targets out. Me and my hunting mate dont get to shoot the official weekend shoots much so we just head down after work mid week and pick dots to shoot at on the blank bales. We never shoot from the markers as shooting from 48m is not what i do while out hunting. We limit all our shots to about 20m or under and try to make the shots like real hunting situations ie through gaps in trees or kneeling with bow almost horizontal etc. besides being great fun its a really good way to practice for hunting situations.
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I always keep score because i was just born competitive,but i still have a good time.I will not shoot an animal past 25 yards in the woods but i'm not worried about wounding a chunk of foam if a stake is too far back.Some of the courses around here make it to where the shots are unethical to make scores go down.There are several around here that usually shoot in the 190's on a well set up 20 target course but its like it pisses the people that set up the course so the next time they have a shoot it is set up harder.There are many shots on these courses that aren't well set up but it's only for score not to make you take riskier shots in the woods.But i have found the harder you concentrate on scoring a ten instead of a (kill) shot the better your shooting becomes.If you shoot at the animal as a whole you are likely to miss, if you pick a small spot such as the 12 ring to shoot at you are going to make a better shot.I don't mean to offend anyone but i can shoot for fun at my house and save gas money,when i go to a 3-d shoot i want to kick everyones a-- there!