Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Benny Nganabbarru on August 03, 2009, 04:34:00 AM
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Tim at Braveheart Archery kindly replaced the first jig that I bought with the new and improved version (slightly larger; the first one had tolerances too tight to fit my 23/64 finished Douglas fir shafts). With this second one, I also bought the six inch drill bit. So, I began playing around with the system yesterday.
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Yesterday, I started by using a pair of 2.5" x 2.8mm nails. I began work on the living room floor, and survived by doing jobs around the house for the rest of the day.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0302.jpg)
The two nails weighed 96 grains; the weight of the shavings removed in drilling was about 16 grains; so I effectively added 80 grains, plus the epoxy (unknown weight) in five inches. The arrow is a 30" BOP Douglas fir, spined 105/110#, and made by TradGanger Joe Lorenzen (I use these for my Silvertip, but with this front-loading, knowing that my Silvertip is already pushing these arrows to their limits with just the 160 grain point, I was making the front-loaded ones for the Hill Wesley Special). When I finished, the arrow's total weight was 864 grains (up from the usual 775 grains).
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I went to school for a shoot, and was pretty happy with how the arrow flew. My standard arrow for my Wesley Special weighs 700 grains, so this bigger one was slower. The poor old pet pig is pretty flogged-out, but the honour of the first pass-through went to the big arrow; however, it's no penetration test, as the normal arrow did a few pass-throughs as well, and when I shot them into the target's rump (because it is quite intact), they stuck-in about the same; so, I don't think that 3D targets are suitable for penetration tests - but I bet real animals are.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0304.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0306.jpg)
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Today, I moved the workshop to the back veranda, which was a smarter choice (I am in the process of negotiations to replace our current old timber kitchen table with a nice new one, and relocating it to the back veranda and setting it up for archery craft and re-loading [actually, it's already set-up for re-loading, but that's another story]). Gabby occasionally got in the way, but eventually got bored and went to sleep.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0317.jpg)
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My next-door neighbour gave me a few 3.2mm welding rods to play around with. I banged the flux off with the hammer (note the dust-pan and brush; I do try to behave somewhat). Still aiming to make some EFOC arrows for the Wesley Special out of some arrows made by Joe, I drilled a couple of shafts to take five inches of welding rod.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0315.jpg)
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I made an Ace Hex blunt-tipped arrow, and a field point-tipped arrow.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0319.jpg)
They weighed pretty close to each other.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0320.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0321.jpg)
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The welding rod was 3.2mm, so five inches of it weighed more than the two 2.8mm nails from yesterday, and fitted the 9/64th drillbit hole better.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0328.jpg)
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Then I decided to fetch one of the 105/110# shafts that I'd finished (I've recently taken my first baby steps in making my own arrows) for the Silvertip. Knowing that it most-likely cannot cope with any more than the 160 grains of normal point weight, I decided to drill the rear in order to add some weight back there, to dynamically stiffen the arrow (just like the Goldtip system for their carbons). For this rear-loading, I used 2.5" of welding rod.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0322.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0326.jpg)
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Previously, I'd make the initial drill using the jig and the standard length bit. Then, I'd remove the jig, put the six inch bit in, and carefully drill away. I did this again, and...
Uh-oh!
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0323.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0324.jpg)
I snapped the shaft to have a better look at the wayward hole.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0329.jpg)
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After this, I decided to use the jig for as far as I could go with the six inch bit, and only remove it to get the last bit of depth. I did this on another shaft, and added the front and rear weight. I haven't yet fletched it up, so I can't say how it went. Later, for that one...
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Towards evening, I wandered down to the school, and took a standard blunt and the new blunt (for the Wesley Special). The target was a plastic milk bottle - my all-time favourite target (other than the feral animals).
I did lots of shooting, and was happy with the flight. Of course, the heavier one is slower. Toward the end, I missed the bottle (only just!) and heard a little snapping noise. Upon inspection, I discovered I'd glanced it off a little rock hidden below the lawn, and splintered a large section off along the hole made for the welding rod.
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0330.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0334.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0336.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0339.jpg)
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l164/b_kleinig/Archery%20Craft/IMG_0338.jpg)
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So, that's where I'm up to with this EFOC endeavour.
A few thoughts that I have:
1. Five inches is a lot of hole, and a lot of error can take place. Less drilling may produce a stronger arrow, because of a straighter hole. Plus, I feel a little nervous about such a large hole of possibly unknown accuracy.
2. Use the jig for as much guidance as possible.
3. I wish tungsten was more readily available - I've got some coming from Tim, but he says that it might well be the last, as it's really hard to get and to work with. Tungsten seems ideal, as it would pack in the weight in a very small hole. I tried to contact a US rare metals company, but in the inquiry form, I didn't list a company (I don't have one) or a fax number (I don't have one of those, either), and the response I got (which was not an automatically generated one) was that unless I supplied those two, they were unable to deal with me for security reasons - I swear, I'm a good bloke!
4. I noticed that a crown dip seems to add a fair bit of weight to an arrow. How much, anybody? 50 grains? 40 grains? Anyway, it could be an idea to add a little front dip in addition to the welding rod / nail / tungsten.
5. I am really looking forward to Todd Martin being able to put the heavier STOS broadheads on the market.
Cheers,
Ben
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Good stuff there Ben! :thumbsup:
For those interested, we're looking into some other materials that may be more friendly. The tungsten is the bomb (and bomb proof) but expensive and very hard to work with.
Here's another idea I've not tried yet...I'm going to give the point end of my shafts a little soak in Minwax Wood Hardener after I've drilled them and before I epoxy in the insert. It should add even more strength up front.
Tim
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Good stuff, Ben. Crown dips really don't add that much to the weight, not more than 10 grains or so per dip if memory serves.
Another thing you recognized right off is that there is an upward limit to front loading that's reached farily quickly with high poundage bows. That is, spine high enough to handle the HFOC or EFOC just isn't readily available in standard diameter size softwood (cedar, fir, spruce) shafts.
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Ben, I admire your industriousness, but the prospect of one of those splinters coming off at the shot... that really scares me. I'm a wood man all the way, but I believe I'd stay with the tubular materials for loading up the end of the shaft.
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Thanks, fellows. Yep, it scared me, too. That's why I think I'll steer away from too much length. It'll be much safer to have just a couple of inches up there, rather than five.
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If you used a hypodermic needle, like the ones you use for cattle, and squirted it all the way to the bottom, and then put the welding rod in? If you put in enough that excess squirts out, shouldn't it act like a splint and be stronger than the shaft? I am just guessing. Bill
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Ben,
I roll the rod in epoxy and make sure it squirts out of the arrow, it seems to strengthen the arrow by bonding everything together.
Of course I have only went about 3" deep.
Andy
(Still waiting on tungsten)
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Yep, I rolled the rod in the epoxy, and made sure it squirted out.
Andy, I looked at tungsten welding electrodes at an online shop (an Aussie one), and from memory they sell 10 3.2mm rods for AU$60. But, when I asked my Dad about it (he's a farmer) he was cautious about thinking that these would be pure tungsten, his reasoning being that they might be rods that are capable of welding tungsten, rather than made of tungsten. He said to check with a welder. What do you reckon? Would these rods be the real deal? Here's the link, if it helps:
http://www.weldsmart.com.au/welding-australia/tungsten-electrodes
Cheers,
Ben
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Ben,
I sent you a PM.
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I am not sure if its available down there in Australia or not, but how about using lead solder. I believe it should be heaver than the nails or welding rod even though its not pure lead. Just a thought, as its a whole cheaper and easier to come by than Tungsten here in the US anyway.
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I put 2 1/2" of welding rod in some chundoo arrows and hit two trees with them. One was a direct hit on a six inch maple that bounced the arrow back at me about ten feet, the other was a side hit that stuck to almost the entire tip and was removed with a knife. Neither arrow was harmed in any way after the shot. This was not an experiment, I just screwed up my shot :) . Works for me.The shafts were 70-75 shot out of a 57# bow.
Denny
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Yep, I accidentally hit a tree with one of the arrows I rigged-up, and it was fine. I think 2.5" is a very good amount, as not much internal leverage can occur. I think I will be sticking to something around that, rather than 5".
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Tungsten from a welding supply place is the real deal. It is used as the electrode not the filler metal for TIG welding.
Pete
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I've been working with 1/8" lead wire. It is 35 gr/in, very easy to work with and you don't have to hock the house to buy it. I drill my hole with a #30 bit using a drill press with a jig I made. I can get 3", but 2" is more practical and quite easy.
When combined with a light shaft and a heavy head I can get the magic 20%.
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Ben, I have made extensive tests with this method of adding weight. And unfortunately it is really only good for adding weight. There is no gain in strength against extreme targets. I need to upload some test setups onto youtube.
All shafts did not survive my concrete target, wether unreinforced or reinforced. Tapered ash and tapered maple shafts do survive. I did not break one yet...
For cedar arrows there is a good way of footing that will enhance the durability a lot against harder targets (equals less breakage).
PM me for the webadress, since he is not a sponsor here (yet)...