Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Stiks-n-Strings on October 14, 2009, 11:13:00 PM
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Who can I get to make some good knapped flint heads for deer and turkey?
Gonna do a bow build later this winter of a more primitive type bow and want to make some primitive arrows.
What is the best kind of sapplings to use or should I go with cane?
Probably need to get started getting shafts dried so I can shoot plenty before next spring.
Gonna shoot for 50 to 55 # on the bow at 29"
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You probably have red osier dogwood(Cornus sericea), a multi-stemmed shrub type dogwood that generally grows in wet areas or in landscapes. With the leaves gone, red osier is easy to ID because of the bright red stems on the young growth. There are probably other shrub type dogwoods , wild rose or viburnums growing in the wild in your area. Do a search with your state DNR or Dept of Ag for better ID information and locations.
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Here is a tip or two for you. When you locate the shoot material look for second year growth or older for your shafting. Generally the first year a shoot will have leaves along it's length. The second growth year small branches will grow from the leaf scars of the previous year. It is this second year growth(or older) that you want for arrows. Cut them longer that you need(36" or so if you can) and anything from about 3/8" in diameter up to 1/2" or more at the base . You will probably be reducing the diameter with a thumb plane later. After they dry they will have shrunk a bit as when you remove the bark so you will need bigger diameter than you would think.
With some hardwood shoots, like sourwood(not in your area) you can remove the bark as soon as you cut them and they generally will not check when drying. With other material like viburnum or wild rose, you will leave the bark on for at least a month before you remove it or they WILL check. When I collect hardwood shoots I wrap them in bundles of about 15 and set them in my utility room to dry.
The natural taper of most hardwood shoots will make spining your arrows easier. That natural taper will reduce the effective spine by about 10#. I make my cane and hardwood arrows long also; 29" to 30" for my 26" draw. Any length over 28" you can reduce the spine by 5# per inch.
...and they don't have to be "as straight as an arrow" either. In most cases, if the point and nock end line up and the arrow spins well the arrow will fly well.
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Kris I have several river cane shafts that I cut last fall,they need straightened but you are welcome to some of them if you decide to use cane.
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Thanks for all the info Guys, I may take you up on the cane Mike. I'm not looking to get in a big hurry as this will be a set up for next year so I figur as long as I'm shooting by march I should be good. I hope.
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TTT. plenty of guys offering advice on shafts but what about some good hunting stone heads?
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I don't knap so I get all my heads and blades from friends that do.
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They are kind of difficult to make, sticks and strings. But if your not to picky, core and flake arrowheads are easier to make and can still be made pretty nice. All of mine are made on a biface core which makes them very flat and wide. I might spend several hours on a real nice one. So long story shorter they have to be expensive.
If you look up some starving self bowyer artists on paleo planet you might be able to buy some real nice ones cheaper.
I've been wanting to get back to this project of making some stone tipped arrows as I have never really made any. I can make a corner notch as wide as the really wide Zwickeys deltas or what ever their called. I've weighed some of mine and there not that heavy. A couple hundred grains or so. If I can get the chores done this year....
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I got a message from Bill Skinner and talked to a guy I know here in petersburg named Tom Tally. I've known him for years and haven't talked to him in a while so I really didn't even think of him. Tom told me he sells them for 20 a piece. I thought they might be expensive but I've seen steel heads higher.
I really don't know what's fair for this type of equipment cause I am very unfamiliar with primitive gear. I know quite a bit about archery in general and am learning more about trad gear everyday but this whole primitive has peaked my interest as of late. I did buy a knapped obsidian knife and am waiting for it and plan to dress and skin my first primitive deer with it down the road and put it up.
Kinda looking forward to this whole primitive thing. If you guys see a skinny white feller running around the woods in a loin cloth and bareefoot it's just me. LOL but it oughta be fun right LOL
Kris
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"Skinny white feller in a loin cloth" huh? Thanks for the warning!
Bill is one of the best. Doesn't have a whole lot to say but right there if you need some stone points or cane shafting material.
Bona
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Well it sounds like you have the need to investigate the flint knapping process sticks_strings. Just don't get to carried away it is known to be hard on the body. Don't rely on pressure flaking for too long, a lot of hernias and or wrinst and elbow problems have been noted in those who do.
20 bucks is a good price for one and I would think you find someone younger on paleo planet that would go for that. I've been doing knapping on a above hobby level since 82" and I've seen several generations of poeple come and go in it. I'm pretty shot up from it myself. But when you love something you can't be defeated. Kind of like the bow thing.
I've been thinking about putting some on the auction next time, that would be cool. I noticed Woodies sold pretty well.
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(http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv87/artifaker1x/avitar1.jpg)
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Some more recent work;
(http://i672.photobucket.com/albums/vv87/artifaker1x/tradgang1.jpg)
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Artifaker those look pretty good! I don't really need to start knapping myself, I got to many Irons in the fire now. Maybe down the road but a good ways down the road.
Yeah Bona, I been given the loin cloth thing a little thought but I think it gets to cold on my part of the country. LOL
Atifaker, I really like brown and black looking one ( 2nd on the right bottom after the nickel. I bet that would make a good rabbit head.
Kris
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Sticks-nstrings, I put that brown and black triple notch point on the scale this morning and it runs 30.5 grains. The material is South Park or possibly Big Horns Spanish Point Jasper. I think it might be too small and delicate to use on our size arrows. It weighs barely more than an aluminum insert. The shaft for it would be about the size of a chop stick.
The point to the left of the nickle is Sweetwater Chalcedony and weighs 265 grains.
The point straight above the nickle is Flattop Chalcedony and is very rare, it weighs 114 grains.
The large corner notch to the right of the Flattop is South Park Jasper and weighs 211 grains.
The small corner notch straight above the triple notch is Shirley Basin and weighs 45 grains.
The point to the right of the nickle is Kremling White River Resilliscified Chalcedony and weighs 57 grains.
The two clear points are Pigeon Blood Agate and weigh 72 and 130 grains.
I'm thinking that I've had these too long to sell (I always keep quite a few of my points). But I will try to start a new work shop and make a few. I should be able to come up with something tough and in the weight range for our size of bows. If you want.
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Larry those are some awesome looking point !!!!!!!!I have been knapping for about 4 years and mine are far from the quality of yours.However I did start hunting with them last year and was able to get a doe with a point I had made .
You are correct ,knapping is extremely addictive.
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Ya man, thanks. It doesn't really get easier with time either, I was just outside knapping for the first time in a while. It didn't go all that well, I'm out of knapping shape. I need to come up with some for hunting, and I have a friend here that might be able to do it. You could (afraid a snake) supply stick-nstrings if you want. No problem here, I mainly make stuff for looking at, keep sakes and such. I'll do some more knapping as the weather holds and see what happens.
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Very nice notching!
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Sounds great guys anybody that wants to let loose of any good hunting heads just let me know. I can't buy them all but I'll take what I can afford.
I was thinking about doing some trading. and making some real nice display arrows to trade for points kinda like Guru does. Only thing is I gotta get together some stuff to start with.
Gonna cut me some arrow wood chutes and primrose later in the next week or two.
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Oh yeah I almosts forgot 30.5 grains or not that's one pretty arra head :clapper:
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Jim, thanks and the secret to that is to get the point thin in the first place. I have some full size replicas of the Mayan Eccentrics, which are a kind of notching run a muck on a large biface.
Sticks,thanks, the 30 grains represents how thin the piece is. The thinner you go, the wider and flatter the point becomes, giving you more cutting edge for the weight of the point.
This is a new way to quantifie the workmanship on a point to me.
When I do a "series", I make a few points and then cull them so to speak. The "culls" to are just points that I don't favor that much. The culls get traded or gave away or what ever. So if I haven't been doing any then I might not have any to get rid of. The points that are kept for show mainly have to have clean flaking surfaces (no steps or hinges)with decent pattern in the flaking. The ones that don't could be shot or what ever. I made a decent Spanish Diggings corner notch earlier this year but screwed up and left a big hinge on one face and I couldn't get it off. I would have broke the point too get it off but another knapper talked me out of it to use for a bolo tie where the hing side would be glued to the plate anyway. So that is one way to get points to shoot. I've been belly-aching a lot but I can definitely do this.
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Artifake, outstanding looking heads. Those are real works of art. I can second your thoughts on this hobby can be hard on the body. Just had my shoulder injected two weeks ago for tendonitis. Have to take some time off. My hardest job is to get the base thin enough so I don't lose so much wood when I try and attach the head to the arrow.
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Jon Stewart; thanks and, percussion, percussion, percussion, with just a little pressure at the end to trim up and even the edges.
All the points in the lower pic and most of the ones in the frame are made on percussion bifaces. pressure was only used lightly on platforms and to trim at the end.
As to the effects on health, I've seen it in most of the people that stay in it and I've experienced it. With pressure you want to stay "with in" your strength, don't strain for all your worth on every flake or you will probably have problems at some point. I think it has to do with the crack of vibration when the flake releases.
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How long and how wide should a good hunting point be for deer and turkey?
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Sticks, That is a good question. I think it would depend on how fast the bow is. The more cutting edge you have the more drag on the point. When I hunted this year I carried a No-Mercy for longer shots, quartering away and angle shots and the new Woodsmen elite for really close straight in shots (they don't allow stone points here on big game,period). The arrows were 23% EFOC and the bow was a 60lb PLII BW drawn to 29. But if I was shooting a lighter bow I would forgo the three blade because it has too much drag. It also causes a devistating wound channel, kind of like a hollow point bullet.
With a lighter bow a narrow but long head would be good, like the Cahokia three notch point. If you were packing some real punch with the bow then one of the the real wide thin corner notches like I make would give you a wider wound channel. There is another point design that I thought about resurrecting. It is called the tri-hedial and it has 3 faces and 3 edges. It was used by the very early people in the Danish area and in the Guatemala area too, well before the Mayans. It was a spear point I believe, but could be made to about two hundred grains of weight. It might be pretty cool. It attaches by a smaller round stem from the base, socket style. It has to be made with a copper pressure tool, like Danish Daggers.
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Have the points arrived? Bill