Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: RunsUpRiver on October 29, 2009, 01:28:00 PM
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Howdy!
I'm trying to get started Bowhunting for Ducks and geese. I cannot seem to find what California defines as a FLU FLU, so I am posting this in hope to find what others have been using that will work for me.
I know what a flu flu arrow is, I've used them for years. I just want to know if anyone has some definitions and info from their hunts or state's regs.
Ok, So I was on the California Fish and game website and it states that you can only hunt waterfowl with FLU FLU arrows unless you are shooting sitting ducks on water from a Scullboat. I searched all over their site and couldnt really find any definition of a FLU FLU.
Are there any arrow stopping or drag requirements placed on the feathers?
Do the feathers need to be a certain height or length?
I'm thinking about going with a 3 fletch FLU FLU for ducks this year. Wondering what I need to do to make sure the state considers them FLU FLUs. 3 Fletch will work best with my arrow rest, and hopefully give better accuracy out a little further than a spiral or a 4 or 6 fletch design.
I want to use fletching that is somewhat smaller than the normal FLU FLU fletching to keep the speed up a little. Hence my questions about definition.
Just very interested in what a state considers a FLU FLU arrow to be.
I've always liked using the standard fletched style instead of a spiral wrap.
Thanks!
Dean
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The only difference is the fletching. You leave it big (untrimmed), and/or use extra feathers, or twist it around the shaft. It's like air brakes on a jet. Do a google image search for flu flu arrows. Just cut the feathers to length, but don't trim them otherwise.
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Dean, I bet if you asked 4 different game wardens you would get 4 different answers.
I think they are concerned more about how far the arrow will travel vs. how it is made. If you find the correct answer, pleas share.
I myself use a 6 fletch for pheasants and find that they do not slow down until about 50 yds or so. The refuges do not allow archery, so I have not hunted ducks/geese yet. What part of CA are you from?
By the way, I use the left-over feathers from my other arrows (the 3.5 inch or so left over from making up my regular arrows). This makes a smaller fletch, but it is still a full feather as far as hight is concerned. hope that made sense.
Ben
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From Wikipedia,
"A flu-flu arrow is a type of arrow specifically designed to travel a short distance. Such arrows are particularly useful when shooting at aerial targets or for certain types of recreational archery where the arrow must not travel too far. One of the main uses of these arrows is that they do not get lost as easily if they miss the target.
A flu-flu is a design of fletching, normally made by using long sections of feathers, in most cases six or more sections are used, rather than the traditional three. Alternatively, two long feathers can be spiraled around the end of the arrow shaft. In either case, the excessive fletching serves to generate more drag and slow the arrow down rapidly after a short distance (about 30m). Recreational flu-flus usually have rubber points to add weight and keep the flight slower."
I would give the state a call.
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Tom- Thanks! Already done the search, and I've been making and using FLU FLUs for years.
Rxhntr- I am doing my research, I'll post what I find here. I'm up in Humboldt. Good Idea on using the leftovers! What rest are you using for 6 fletch, and are you using the same shafts you would with regular fletching? Accuracy issues?
Badger- The Wiki on FLU FLUs is vague, like you saw. By Wiki, just having any fletching over an inch long would make it a FLU FLU. Feathers cause drag and shorten the flight distance by their very use. I've called CDFG and they read me these rules-
2) Bow and Arrows or Crossbows. Only arrows or crossbows bolts with flu- flu fletching may be used except that conventionally fletched arrows may be used to take waterfowl sitting on the water from scullboats or similar watercraft. Archers hunting during any archery season may not possess a firearm while in the field engaged in archery hunting.
Vague...vague.. and vague...
Since normal arrows use 2 to 4 inch fletching, would an arrow with three 5 or 6 inch fletchings count? What if they are trimmed, but not parabolic?
Fun stuff!
Dean
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Here is my thoughts - You want that arrow so different it is obvious. I would go with a minimum of 4 fletch, full height, 4" or more. It would be hard for a game warden to look at that and say it isn't a flu flu. If you choose 3 fletch he might get excited and look for your trimming scissors.
Just my opinion.
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Like Larry said, 4-4" would be best. Not for the definiton, but for the need of a killing performance.
Ducks and geese are tough birds! You need the best energy supporting arrow, including a sharp broadhead for clean, quick kills.
I would'nt even consider a spiral type or 6 fletch. It's a shame that an agency that is suppose to care for the needs of wildlife and proper, humane techniques, have no idea about their rules!
Good hunting too you, and post pics when it happens for you. Good shootin, Steve
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About a year or so ago there was an article in TBM about making flu-flu arrows that didnt slow the arrows too much. Instead of three 4" full feathers. You cut each feather into 1" peices and space them out about a half inch of so in the clamp. Lets a little more air past but still slows the arrow. I think the intent of the CA law is that if you shoot at ducks in the air your broadhead arrows are not coming down 150+ yds away and possibly down on other hunters.
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Well, that's like asking what's the difference between a longbow and a recurve.
Ya know it when you see it.
I've seen many flu-flu's that were only 3 fletch and they work just fine. My only definition would be full height fletching. If a warden says it's not a flu-flu with only three fletch he's making up his own rules.
Make some with 3,4,5,6, (or 1 long spiral wound), or whatever and try them. See what works for your application then go hunt. The law is actually written in your favor. Doesn't say anything about number of fletch, length of fletch etc. Just says "flu-flu". Nobody who knows anything about archery at all will claim it's not a flu-flu if the fletch is full height.
About the only one I can think of that might get you into trouble would be the kind that you fletch with normal cut fletch and then wind a couple turns of full height feather behind the regular fletch like a giant dry fly hackle. Ends up looking like a regular arrow with a puffball behind it. Those are kinda half normal and half flu-flu. Might not push your luck on it.
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RUP, in reading your post, it sounds like you are really wanting a pseudo flu-flu; one that shoots farther than the usual ones.
I highly recommend experimenting with 4" long, untrimmed six-fletch. You can get two fletches from one full length that way. Maybe these won't reach out quite so far, but close in, say 10-15 yards and less, they'll work well, AND you will have a better chance of getting your arrow back, especially for ones that end up in the lake weeds. The regular arrows go far too deep into the water and are quickly lost in the muck.
I recommend smallish broadheads too. Good luck!
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Larry- Trimming scisors... Funny!
Frank- I'm still working on the broadhead or game point. Lots to work on. I dont plan on using the spiral at all.
HVY- what's TBM? Sounds intersting....I'd like to know more about that method.
Dave- I so far, I think that the height of the feathers is the main definition. I've scoured the internet and seem to be pointed that way.
York- The idea is to be more accurate. I'm thinking it will be hard to guestimate distance for birds on the water or land, and I know it is hard to guestimate distance while a bird is flying.
Accuracy is left/ right and yardage-up/down. Faster arrow= less drop. Less exactness required for range estimation. Cleaner kills.
My thoughts are that an arrow that travels faster for the first 30 yards will be more accurate if my built in rangefinder is off.
The FLU FLUs I've shot flew about the same as a regualr arrow for the first 10 yards. After that, they drop more.
I am thinking about the water and muck and retrieval as well. When shot at a lower angle, such as from land to the water, arrows should float back up to the surface. For shooting ducks on the wing, I know that I want a good FLU FLU to slow the arrow down quickly, and allow it to fall nearly verticaly back to the ground. For ducks and geese on land, and to an extant on water, a regular turkey or deer arrow would seem best.
The floating duck arrows shouldnt be a problem and I think smaller FLU FLUs would reign. For flying birds, bigger (to a point) would be best. Birds on land, I think I need very good accurace out to 30 yards.
I'm trying to find a single way to fletch that accomplishes all my goals as much as possible. It will be much easier to shoot only one arrow type out of the bow instead of using different arrow types for each situation.
Here's a pic of different FLU FLUS-
(http://tradgang.com/flu-flu/bfletch.jpg)
I am thinking about using one of these two tips-
Turkey Terrors-
(http://images.cabelas.com/is/image/cabelas/s7_418355_imageset_01?$main-Medium$)
and the G5 SGH tips
(http://www.urbanarchery.com.au/images/sgh.jpg)
Dean
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Dean, looks like you're on the right track with lots of variations to try. I'd have to pick your second arrow from the top as the best all around option. Only 3 fletch but a spiral wound fletch behind that.
Another thing to think about is arrow weight. You can flu-flu fletch two different weight arrows exactly the same and the heavy one will fly farther. Might be a way to get some extra range for you.
As for heads, I've tried the G5 like in your bottom picture for small game and it's great in places where you'd use a blunt or judo but even with the sharpened claws, it's too close to being a pure blunt to work on birds like ducks and geese in my opinion. You need something you can be sure will penetrate and the G5 small game head ain't it.
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Are those old Bodkins still available? Thought I saw something in a Martin catalogue, sold as "Delmas" (?) Somewhere I've seen an old Bodkin that had it's point chopped off squarish, and then re-sharpened...kinda of a "sharp blunt" if you will. They didn't run $30 apiece either ;)
Everything I've read about hunting ducks, geese, it's just as Dave Bulla said - "You need something you can be sure will penetrate". They are tough critters!
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Are those old Bodkins still available? Thought I saw something in a Martin catalogue, sold as "Delmas" (?) Somewhere I've seen an old Bodkin that had it's point chopped off squarish, and then re-sharpened...kinda of a "sharp blunt" if you will. They didn't run $30 apiece either ;)
Everything I've read about hunting ducks, geese, it's just as Dave Bulla said - "You need something you can be sure will penetrate". They are tough critters, like tree-rats with wings.
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Like Dave, the second arrow fletch is what I would use! As for heads, Sharp cut on impact, just like for deer or large game, broadheads!
You don't want them flying off with the arrow, these birds are tough. My oppinion.
Good shootin, Steve.
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I've been doing research still.... There seems to be a lot missing on the web as to the defining points of a FLU FLU other than having feathers that slow it's flight.... Hmm... There has to be a state that has some definition in writing...
I discussed Turkey arrows with some friends yesterday. Seems that most use Deer type arrows and go for penetration. No one yesterday has done Waterfowl bowhunting..yet... so very little local knowledge.
One of my interests is to be able to use the same arrow for Turkey and Waterfowl- where for turkey you can use any type of arrow and waterfowl must be FLU FLU even if they are not flying (unless hunter is on a scullboat, then regular arrows can be used on swimming waterfowl)
It just makes more sense to me to be able to get used to one arrow type on the bow for all of my birding adventures.
So I'm working on the perfect birding arrow :)
The adventure continues.....
Dean
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If questioned by anyone, you might refer to the first definition of a FluFlu ever!? The term was coined in THOMPSON, J.M. (1878): The Witchery of Archery.
He [Tommy, a Seminole or Okechobee Indian] had a very broad-feathered arrow which he had named "flo-hoo", on account of a peculiar roaring sound it made while flying through the air. ... One day he shot this arrow at a plover standing on a point of sand. It went loudly whizzing just over his back, ... I was at Tommy's side when he shot. The bird was a good hundred yards away.
Take some yards off of that 'good hundred', because of artistic license probably used by Thompson, but there you have it! The first description of a FluFlu and how far it went too.
Having said that and if I were you, I would want more bow in the first place and only using broadheads second.
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Dean, if you search for info and check with archeoligist of your area, The natives of california used a skip arrow for waterfowl.
I remember reading of a knapper from Cal. who made skip type points. the principle was the same as skipping rocks across the water.
I still would go with a heavy wood arrow, 4 fletch, left full height, and sharp broadheads. About a dozen or so!
Now get on it and shoot some birds! Good shootin, Steve
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If you are looking for a premiun quality Flu Flu see Karen @ Traditional Cedar arrow. I shoot her arrows in Competition and tha accuracy and workmanship is unsurpassed. She can be reached at www.tradcedararrows.com (http://www.tradcedararrows.com) or e-mail at [email protected]. Give them a look see
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i hunt 6 fletch full feathers for squirrels / gotta keep yardage to under10 / squirrels are quick! :D and after 10 the arrow is slow
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I have made several of the flu-flus from the Traditional Bowhunter Magazine(TBM). They are something to see. They are great for shooting at squirrels and I think they would work for you. They are louder and slower than regular fletching, but still travel a good distance. Mine are slightly modified from the article by using a helical clamp, four rows of feather sections instead of three, and three "feathers" instead of four. I wish I had pictures of them on my flashdrive. I will try to post pictures this weekend.
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Cool! Looking forward to the photos.
Thanks!
Dean
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like you said you know what a flu flu is id call the gamewarden and ask about what manadory.Myself i use 5 inch feathers fletched standard fleched .and put three fluflu feathers between them.same lengh
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I can just imagine the game warden getting a call:
"Sir...can you tell me how you define a flu flu."
Warden: "Hold on sir"...."Hey Fred, there's another guy on the phone asking about flu flu arrows...what should I tell him?"
Fred: "Tell him the can only have single bevel field points, and that the feathers must be totally symetrical, but must be altered from arrow to arrow...you know, shield shape on one arrow, parabolic on the other. Oh yes...and they can only have yellow or white feathers, but pink is okay on Saturdays."
Warden: "Gotcha!....You would think these guys never saw a flu flu arrow in their life. I wonder if we should tell them that they have to be a certain length and weight as well? How about a fake section in our field manual (he he), Section 11, Paragraph 3, Sub Paragraph 2B, says (ha ha)."
Fred: "Oh yeah....and while you have them going, tell them that they can only be carried in a State approved back quiver made from recycled leather. By the way, what is our rules regarding flu flu arrows?"
Warden: "We just copied the lines from a Roy Hoff article in Archery Magazine, from 1956. That seemed to make the most sense. Heck we have no clue...big feathers maybe? We can freak them out though by carrying a tape measure with us when we check their arrows."
Warden getting back on phone: "Sir...can you please leave your phone number and I will call you back. I seems we are updating our files as of this hour and their will be a multitude of changes regarding said arrows, regarding measurements, weights, colors, manufacturing specs, et al. We should have it settled by the end of season for sure."
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I've joked with friends about that very same scenario. So far, still no definitive answer, but getting a lot more general info on what they look for.
So far, they seem to look for "bigger" and "more" feathers on the arrow. One warden I talked with on the phone used the term "uncut" but couldnt tell me how many fletch or how long the fletch needed to be.
It's been kind of fun, and kind of difficult, but I'm still looking for my answer :)
Most of the law enforcement people I've spoken with have said they've enver encountered anyone hunting waterfowl with a bow.
Dean