Post by: Earl Jeff on November 11, 2009, 08:43:00 PM
Post by: Tim on November 11, 2009, 08:49:00 PM
What part of PA are you from?
Tim
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 11, 2009, 09:07:00 PM
Post by: ed burgholzer on November 12, 2009, 06:54:00 PM
Post by: Red Beastmaster on November 12, 2009, 09:18:00 PM
Still have tomorrow afternoon and Saturday. Anything can happen.
Post by: Hoser1268 on November 12, 2009, 10:19:00 PM
Post by: RedShaft on November 12, 2009, 10:30:00 PM
Post by: ultrasweet on November 13, 2009, 12:32:00 AM
Post by: sweet old bill on November 13, 2009, 04:01:00 AM
Post by: wollelybugger on November 13, 2009, 05:43:00 AM
Post by: PA stickbow boy on November 13, 2009, 08:25:00 AM
Post by: PA stickbow boy on November 13, 2009, 08:48:00 AM
Post by: Jerry Jeffer on November 13, 2009, 09:24:00 AM
Post by: danseitz on November 13, 2009, 09:34:00 AM
Post by: ultrasweet on November 13, 2009, 09:42:00 AM
Post by: Tioga on November 13, 2009, 12:12:00 PM
Even the hordes of New England hunters weren't around to invade SGLs 208 and 64 this year. I guess I outta take the hint eh?
Gonna head out this afternoon for a short stand, and maybe tomorrow for the day. But the magic is gone, and my heart just isn't into it any longer though. :(
Post by: blktail on November 13, 2009, 12:21:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on November 13, 2009, 12:33:00 PM
Maybe I'm just getting to old.
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
Post by: danseitz on November 13, 2009, 03:38:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on November 13, 2009, 05:52:00 PM
Quote
Not to be nasty but any of you Pennsy guys who fell all over yourselves to hug Gary Alt need to appologize to the rest of us.I apologize. I'm sorry. Now if I can just find the courage to apologize to myself and my grandkids..... :(
Post by: Steve Crowl on November 13, 2009, 07:41:00 PM
Post by: wollelybugger on November 13, 2009, 07:57:00 PM
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 13, 2009, 09:47:00 PM
Post by: ultrasweet on November 14, 2009, 12:45:00 AM
Post by: blktail on November 14, 2009, 08:57:00 AM
Couldn't have said it better myself my friend.
Post by: Jim Picarelli on November 14, 2009, 06:01:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by danseitz:I'm not an Alt fan nor do I favor the restrictions but to be fair,the only thing the PGC did was sell the tags...it was the hunters filled them and killed loads of deer,and now they're bitchin
Not to be nasty but any of you Pennsy guys who fell all over yourselves to hug Gary Alt need to appologize to the rest of us. It truly is a shame what the Pa Game Commision did to deer hunting on public land. I have been out in Ohio the last few years trying to find a place with some deer. Sad.
Post by: Jim Picarelli on November 14, 2009, 06:03:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jim Picarelli:
QuoteOriginally posted by danseitz:I'm not an Alt fan nor do I favor the restrictions but to be fair,the only thing the PGC did was sell the tags...it was the hunters filled them and killed loads of deer,and now they're bitchin.But on a good note...I did take a nice 8pt yesterday morning [/b]
Not to be nasty but any of you Pennsy guys who fell all over yourselves to hug Gary Alt need to appologize to the rest of us. It truly is a shame what the Pa Game Commision did to deer hunting on public land. I have been out in Ohio the last few years trying to find a place with some deer. Sad.
Post by: Tioga on November 14, 2009, 06:03:00 PM
Quote
I'm not an Alt fan nor do I favor the restrictions but to be fair,the only thing the PGC did was sell the tags...it was the hunters filled them and killed loads of deer,and now they're bitchinOh those terrible hunters. :rolleyes: First we get blamed for not killing enough does decade after decade. Now we get blamed for killing to many.
Post by: Jim Picarelli on November 14, 2009, 06:04:00 PM
Post by: Jim Picarelli on November 14, 2009, 06:07:00 PM
Post by: Jim Picarelli on November 14, 2009, 06:08:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Jim Picarelli:
Not terrible hunters at all. Pa. hunters are very good at what they do(the yearly kill statistics prove that),and I'm proud to be a Pa. hunter
Post by: Tioga on November 14, 2009, 06:24:00 PM
In the past, Pa hunters were accused of not allowing the PGC to harvest the number of deer that some folks, like Roger Latham, wanted. So for decade after decade we were accused of allowing the deer herd to grow to the point where they were supposedly damaging the forests and themselves. But somehow, during the decade after decade of forest destruction, we ended up with supposedly the biggest herd we ever had in 2002. :rolleyes:
Nowadays, we get the blame for killing to many deer simply because we bought the tags and used them.
I'll say it again....hunters are not a management program. They are a management tool.
Post by: Jim Picarelli on November 14, 2009, 06:30:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on November 14, 2009, 06:38:00 PM
We hunters followed the science. We are guilty of that and nothing more. In other words, they fed us a line of Eco-Terrorist, tree hugging, bio-freak crap, and we spooned it down.
And here we are.
Gary Alt, he's our man
He came to town, and sold his plan
With visions of racks, like the one he waved
We took the bait, the herd would be saved
He said bucks would be bigger, there'd be more to kill
Up there yonder, up on the hill
Our bowhunting org, yelled FOLLOW THE SCIENCE!
And now we have crossbows, that are in compliance
Now here we set, in deerless despair
The plan needs tweaking, it needs urgent repair
With embryo counts, dropping each year
And negative browse impact surveys, yelled in our ears
"Soon" they say, relief will come
Will it be before, there's hunters none?
Post by: Tioga on November 14, 2009, 06:46:00 PM
Post by: Downwind Lefty on November 15, 2009, 08:38:00 AM
We have fields, streams, hardwoods, pines, flatland, ravines, grapevines, thickets, mountain tops, feed patches etc, perfect terrain. We also border state game lands.
We take a few does each year but overall less than 1/2 dozen for all that hunt there. This property in the "glory years" held tons of deer and was an absolute great time to hunt on.
Now we see some does and a few bucks but nothing great. I'm there every weekend and have seen 2 small 6 points, a few forks and spikes - mostly in the fields and usually a couple does each trip afield.
We do a lot of spotlighting and the route that used to show a hundred or more deer is lucky to show 20 now.
The interesting thing is no one hunts anymore. Turkey season we had zero cars parked on the state game lands. Deer rifle season you see very few people and barely ever hear any shooting. So all the deer are NOT being shot now. So why aren't we seeing any???
Pa used to be a great time, now there isn't enough action to keep a seasoned hunter entertained less than a child. A great thing has taken a huge hit in my opinion.
I'd prefer to see more deer. I'd prefer to determine what I consider a "trophy". I don't see any more "trophy" bucks today than I saw 15 years ago - but I see a fraction of the game.
Opening day of rifle season, we used to have a dozen or more guys at the cabin and we had a GREAT time. Now it's just my father-in-law and me. We still have a great time, but we also miss the good ol' days.
Something needs to be done or support will continue to dwindle. Hunters put a lot of $ into the economy and it's getting reduced year over year. Not to mention it's hard to pass along the heritage if there's no one there to pass it along to.
Thank you Mr. Alt.
Post by: Tioga on November 15, 2009, 11:29:00 AM
Quote
The interesting thing is no one hunts anymore. Turkey season we had zero cars parked on the state game lands. Deer rifle season you see very few people and barely ever hear any shooting. So all the deer are NOT being shot now. So why aren't we seeing any???I'd say predators. Around here, we started seeing some fawns in mid July. By the end of August, our fawn sightings in the deep woods went to zero. All told, I've seen one single fawn during the entire archery season.
Considering that we went into the herd reduction program with a flawed population model which showed that we had more deer then we actually had, and that the PGC was handing out doe tags like candy to kids, I think our herd was taken down quickly and drastically the first few years of this program. I don't know where your cabin is, but in my neck of the woods the excessively hard winters of 2003 and 2004 were hard on the deer which resulted in next to no fawn recruitment during the subsequent summers. The does made it through the winter, but had aborted or absorbed their fetuses. These events brought our herd numbers down to the point where predators could now control our herd for the most part. It took the PGC two more years to back off on doe tag allocations in 2G after these hard winters, and that further aggravated the trouble.
In my area, and a local WCO agrees with me, is that the deer numbers were taken down so low that the deer population is being currently controled by more predators than hunters with doe tags.
As for hunter numbers, this bow season I've seen the lowest number of hunters on SGL 208 and 64 than I've seen in the last 20 years. They were non-existant. Might've been the economy, but I think it's the lack of deer.
Post by: Downwind Lefty on November 15, 2009, 01:39:00 PM
I also agree with the tags - I remember the first two seasons they allowed does to be taken during the regular firearms season, it sounded like a war!
I don't have the answer, but I sure hope someone does.
Post by: Jeff Mccarthy on November 15, 2009, 02:17:00 PM
Post by: Adirondack Bowman on November 15, 2009, 02:18:00 PM
Post by: Adirondack Bowman on November 15, 2009, 02:20:00 PM
Post by: Adirondack Bowman on November 15, 2009, 02:25:00 PM
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 15, 2009, 02:56:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on November 15, 2009, 03:27:00 PM
"I'm not an Alt fan nor do I favor the restrictions but to be fair,the only thing the PGC did was sell the tags...it was the hunters filled them and killed loads of deer,and now they're bitchin."
I must take strong exception to this idea. I am not a game commission person and neither is anyone else but the few that are. We don't make the game laws or set the limits. This is done by the game commission. Sure, hunters killed deer, but that killing was done legally USING THE TAGS THAT THE GAME COMMISSION DETERMINED WAS APPROPRIATE. To suggest that we should take it upon ourselves to in effect do the job that the game commission is appointed to do (e.g. set limits on kills) is sort of a nonviolent anarchy. Doesn't make sense to me. The game commission sold us down the river and we who hunt public land are forever screwed.
But, heh, congrats on the buck.
Post by: Bob Palmer on November 16, 2009, 10:42:00 AM
Even though I miss the glory days, there are a couple positives. The deer and the habitat look healthier. The deer are bigger…no ribs showing and does are more likely to have twin fawns! That was rare back in the day! And the habitat looks really good….especially in the fenced enclosures!! The plants are more diverse and thrive. Depending on your view whether the herd reduction is good or bad, there is no arguing the habitat has improved in the enclosures!
But that’s about where the positives end!! First, we don’t see bigger bucks antler-wise! I did for the first couple years of herd reduction but not many since…PA hunters are quite efficient and take most legal bucks annually on public land…that will never change! To get bigger deer, they would have to change the regs to allow only mature deer (e.g. 15 inch inside spread or something along those lines). Second, there are tons less hunters…I was up for the bow season opener this year and saw two trucks on the 11 mile road up from our Cabin…that’s two trucks covering 7,000 acres or so!!! There used to be a truck (or two) at every pull off (20 or so!!) I can’t help but imagine what that does to the local economy!! Third, we rarely get any deer! Sure, we hunt hard (harder than most) and see deer and take some every now and then…but it’s getting rare! We used to have an average success rate of 50% or so annually for the 8-10 guys that use my father’s cabin. Considering most guys were up for about 3 days each, that’s remarkable! I don’t expect that to ever return…it’s way too much to ask!! Now, on a good year, they get an antlerless deer during rifle season and rarely anything during bow. I know the tag is not a guaranteed deer, but it is hard to justify the expenditure every year just to go for a walk in the woods! I’ll do it forever! I doubt my kids will! I doubt my friends will!
I don’t know the solution…it’s a difficult dilemma to solve! The pressure to please all parties (e.g. hunters, foresters, tree-huggers, insurance companies, etc.) must be overwhelming…hopefully there is a compromise somewhere that will satisfy all!! Right now, the scale is tipped away from the public land hunters…perhaps someday, that will change!
Post by: Chub on November 16, 2009, 06:38:00 PM
Post by: Hoser1268 on November 17, 2009, 05:17:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on November 17, 2009, 06:26:00 PM
I laugh every time someone from some national organization or magazines asks everyone to support their state bowhunting organization. In most states that may be a good idea, but in Pa. you'd be foolish to do that. The UBP is not on your side.
But burning doe licenses won't accomplish anything. It would take some coordinated effort by a statewide org. that actually was a friend of hunters to put such a program together. And the game commission would just sell more. With the legalizing of crossguns more and more rifle people are buying them. That means more hunters in archery season and ultimately less deer. Not a pretty picture.
Post by: jackdaw on November 17, 2009, 08:15:00 PM
Post by: Red Beastmaster on November 17, 2009, 08:41:00 PM
Post by: hawkeye n pa on November 17, 2009, 08:49:00 PM
Work with a guy that he and his buddies hunt posted land with permission) and they had a bonus year. Four really nice racked bucks and others that where legal plus does. He is not much more than twelve miles away.
And I seen twice as much baiting this year. To much TV perhaps????
Post by: George D. Stout on November 17, 2009, 09:25:00 PM
Post by: rybohunter on November 17, 2009, 09:39:00 PM
As for me I had one of the best years since 06. Saw deer almost every trip out, killed a buck & 2 does within 2 weeks.
Post by: longbowman on November 18, 2009, 08:20:00 AM
Post by: Tioga on November 18, 2009, 06:46:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by rybohunter:Your post smacks of "me-ism" from start to finish and really doesn't deserve one ounce of recognition. In fact, it is fairly obvious that in your case, it's "hooray for me and to he11 with everyone else". But I'll make an exception.
Wow, after what now 7 years, y'all are still whining like 6 yr olds about the deer hunting here. LET IT GO.
As for me I had one of the best years since 06. Saw deer almost every trip out, killed a buck & 2 does within 2 weeks.
There are plenty of hunters that have legitimate gripes about legitimate concerns. This thread is a discussion about the current deer management plan that affects each and every one of us. In case it hasn't sunk in to you as of yet, us hunters pay the freight, and many of us feel shortchanged these days with a plan that started out with facts that weren't true and has led to a he11uva lot less deer then the plan promised in the beginning.
There's been some great dialog in this thread by hunters that have decent enough skills to kill deer. The only thing missing would be the deer. I don't call that whining. I call that good dialog.
I'm glad that you had a great season. That's wonderful. Many of us did not thanks to a bad management plan based on false numbers and facts. You may be the kind of person that bows down to the sheepherder and goes BAAAAA.....BAAAAA....but many of us are not.
Obviously in your own little self centered world, things are fine. But obviously, in your own little self centered world, you seem to think that things should be fine for everybody else to. It's not. Things aren't fine. And it's attitudes like yours that contribute to the great division that we continue to have and see between hunters.
You should be supporting your brothers that are down. Not kicking them in the teeth. May your safety harness shrink 5 sizes in the crotch area with you in it. :mad:
Post by: hawkeye n pa on November 18, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
George, Yes I have work with the officers. Although I thought they might recheck the area the following year on their own):
Post by: rybohunter on November 18, 2009, 08:25:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by hawkeye n pa:Hakeye, you still do live in a great hunting area, that's gotten 10x better since AR's came around. I know Apollo very well.
Tioga, well spoken. And rybo count your blessings, I lived in an area like that prior to HR and AR.
George, Yes I have work with the officers. Although I thought they might recheck the area the following year on their own):
Tioga,
I'm not really a very "me-ist" person, I understand there are a lot less deer in some areas compared to the past, but it's just been a while since I've seen such one sided PGC bashing & complaining. The goal was far less deer in many places and there are far fewer deer in many places. Where is the deception?
And for the record, I have had bad seasons. The 2 previous to this one, were absolutely terrible. But I didn't go complaining that it was the PGC's or anyone elses fault besides my own for not seeing any deer. I refuse to be a bitter PGC hating hunter like so many have become.
Post by: danseitz on November 20, 2009, 07:56:00 PM
The game commission killed them. I have no respect for the Pa Game Commission at all. They are a bunch of liars who are in bed with the Sierra Club and other antihunting orgs. If I had anything to do with it, the PGC would be dissolved. They do not serve hunters and are brazen enough to admit it.
Post by: jsweka on November 20, 2009, 08:16:00 PM
Yes, hunting has gotten tougher. I didn't see a legal buck all season while hunting state land. And yes, I had a lot more fun 15 years ago. But bashing the PAGC or United Bowhunters of PA won't solve the problem of more posted ground and increased pressure on public land. That, my friends, is out of their hands.
Post by: Wudstix on November 20, 2009, 09:47:00 PM
Post by: monkeyball on November 20, 2009, 10:37:00 PM
We had deer around because we were not killing them all. It was a one and done deal.
I do not have the solution for the condition our herd is in,but I do have the right to choose how many deer I kill,and at the present time the "1 and your done" is what I am going by.
Craig
Post by: ultrasweet on November 21, 2009, 01:27:00 AM
Post by: danseitz on November 21, 2009, 09:11:00 AM
As for the UBP, they became a worthless bunch when they supported the "Resource First" concept of the PGC obligating them to endorse whatever the PGC determined to do. When Alt and the boys posed their program of massive herd reduction, the UBP fell in lockstep.
Anything to lose from getting rid of the game commission? I don't think so.
Post by: superkodiak on November 21, 2009, 11:37:00 AM
Post by: George D. Stout on November 21, 2009, 11:53:00 AM
I'm also a life member of that useless UBP organization. What a bunch of boneheads to actually want to work with any agency when everyone else wants to bitch about them but not help in any manner.
I did have a seven point outsmart me on three different occasions; was nearly run over by a big black bear, and had ruffed grouse drumming where I haven't seen them in a couple decades.
Of course everything is the fault of the PGC or UBP. Nice to have someone to blame other than our own incapability.
Post by: danseitz on November 21, 2009, 01:07:00 PM
But, hey, if there's more trilliums and tweeties in the woods since the deer were sent packing, it makes everything worthwile.
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 21, 2009, 01:11:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on November 21, 2009, 03:42:00 PM
You're right on the money. I had one idiotic Wildlife Conservation Officer respond to me on a PGC shill site that the drastic decline in the herd was not caused by the introduction of a buck/doe concurrent season and amping up the doe licenses, but was solely the result of poor habitat. What a crock.
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 21, 2009, 03:50:00 PM
Post by: mmisciag on November 21, 2009, 04:16:00 PM
This is my first year hunting. Not only that, I am using traditional tackle. I was out this morning hunting around the Valley Forge Park and didn't see anything. I know that they are around but am sure that they are in the park waiting for the sharp shooters with night vision glasses to get them.
Well there goes my season...
Post by: Red Beastmaster on November 21, 2009, 10:45:00 PM
Yep, that must be it. Don't know what I was thinking. It's all my fault. I completely forgot how to hunt. The lack of deer has nothing to do with several years of concurrent buck/doe rifle seasons.
Silly me.
Post by: Hoser1268 on November 22, 2009, 10:05:00 AM
Post by: George D. Stout on November 22, 2009, 10:51:00 AM
Post by: Hoser1268 on November 22, 2009, 11:06:00 AM
Post by: monkeyball on November 22, 2009, 11:37:00 AM
Craig
Post by: Red Beastmaster on November 22, 2009, 11:57:00 AM
You know I'm not one of those hunters who must kill kill kill. I get the biggest kick out of the hunting experience, totally refreshing, and I can't get enough of it. BUT, it sure would be nice to see the intended quarry once it awhile.
Good luck, Dave
Post by: George D. Stout on November 22, 2009, 12:45:00 PM
You do need to come down and spend a day stumping so we can hash over what's really important, like arrows flying, new bows, etc. I miss our stumping sortees.
On another note, I've seen more Ruffed Grouse this year than I have in decades, in areas that they once flourished. A good sign.
Post by: Downwind Lefty on November 22, 2009, 02:12:00 PM
I don't have the answer but would hope the people tasked with recognizing, identifying and resolving it do have a line of sight. It started in my area when multiple tags were issued to everyone who wanted them and they were allowed to be used opening day of rifle season.
That said, I respectfully disagree with those who believe it's up to the hunters to manage the herd by purchasing the stamps but not using them. I believe the hunters are a consistent and predictable tool to be used in herd management, but it's not up to the hunters to be the decision makers and enforcers. Only the proper number of tags should be issued and only used at the correct time.
Like I said there are significantly fewer deer and turkey where I hunt, no where near as many hunters thus less people spending money in the small communities that have historically depended upon them for support and it's also tougher to get children involved. We need the children to pass along the heritage and let's face it, it takes time to learn how much fun the journey is. Like many kids what got me hooked all those years ago was the excitement of actually seeing game.
Speaking of my own area I don't believe we're trending in the right direction. I'd like to think for those areas that are impacted there's a plan being formulated right now to resolve. My fear is the lack of recognition that an issue actually exists. There's not even a consensus on this board.
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 22, 2009, 03:13:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on November 22, 2009, 03:32:00 PM
And let's not proffer a solution that involves hunters controlling the size of the herd by manipulating the use and effectiveness of antlerless licenses. We just can't pull that off. That's the job of the pgc. They of course have to want to increase the herd. They don't.
Post by: Hoser1268 on November 22, 2009, 05:33:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on November 22, 2009, 09:25:00 PM
My buddy has a nice camp in the Black Moshannon Park area and I thought we were set for life. There were deer and we really had fun. But now the deer are gone and the pgc keeps issuing the same number of tags every year. What's the likelihood of a comeback? Not likely.
Post by: Jim Keller on November 22, 2009, 09:33:00 PM
Back to our state. I hunt public land and private land open to hunting. It's dismal anymore. But the guys I know around Harrisburg who have private farms are still doing well, but go north on gamelands and forget it. My brother in law hunts Cameron Co., he sees more coyote tracks in the snow than deer tracks. I don't think the deer can come back up north even if they close doe hunting between the coyotes and the bears. How many guys remember when we were told that coyotes didn't take fawns? I'm considering doing what a lot of guys are doing and go out of state. Very very sad.
Post by: TradBowyer on November 22, 2009, 09:54:00 PM
and about what is the game commission going to do if people stop buying license? they will sell more doe tags to make up the lack of funds. Gov't will get their money one way or the other. they don't look ahead...they only look at the current.
George, you are fortunate to have a good area. Just like you tell people to come on down and you will show them deer, there are a lot more of us who can have you come down and we will show you no deer.
Post by: Doc Nock on November 23, 2009, 12:28:00 PM
"...I think license sales are down"
"..I'm bitter and I admit it..."
Wow. I've tried to stay out of this but I'll make one foray in and then take my keyboard and give it up.
Yup. I agree. Lots of deer have been killed off.
Yup. 8-10 yrs ago, I'd see a doe w/ fawn. Then with Twins...now w/ triplets. Nature abhors a vacuum and if there is plentiful feed, does have multiple births.
Yup. I hunt public land a lot. I pattern deer and then come the fall, I have "dog walkers" out at dusk with unleashed dogs raising havoc and disrupting deer movement.
I find big erosion ditches caused by horse hunters whackin out trails up steep embankments and 1000# shoed horses digging up the soil to form erosion ditches later.
Game lands are accessable from every side with all the roads around.
The areas adjacent to game lands are private posted land.
I go in early and stay till dark. Next day, I find fresh sign so the deer are there, but nocturnal. Still didn't see any, just "sign".
Some areas have gotten so harrassed by hunters, bikers, hikers and trail riders on horses, the deer seem to have vacated totally. Why not? If you got harrased constantly, would you not go where it's peaceful and unmolested behind the poster signs so prevelant in the patchwork of private vs. public where access is limited only a few hundred yards away???
Look. I'm not saying all is rosey. Gracious no! I'm upset with not the whole UBP, but it's leadership for years. I resigned due to their antics and inbred nepotistic attitudes of Isolationism, but they do work hard and I respect their efforts. I think they need fresh blood at the top..fast...but they're all hard workers but I don't agree with their tactics the past 7 years.
I am saying that if you hunt the bejabbers outa does for several months, they're going to act like prey species and HIDE!
The first 2 weeks of archery, I had does patterened and it was fun to watch them, even if they were just not quite right for a shot.
After the In-line MZ doe season where HUNTERS drove bedding areas, the archery season was no longer a hunt for unmolested deer. In high pressure areas, they vanished. Nocturnal from the sign. In other areas, they hugged the thickest cover possible and were like a long-tailed cat in a room full of us ole folks in rockers!
We can be divisive and call each other names... or claim this or that till hell freezes over, but it isn't a simple Cause-Effect me thinks. I think it is complicated.
Land use has changed. More people are crammed into smaller units of Game Lands than before, closer to home due to gas prices maybe? And lots more does/deer are being killed...but then they started to ACT LIKE SOMEONE WAS TRYING TO KILL THEM and took evasive action.
Many areas I've hunted show few signs of deer...yet other guys I know hunt the same general area nad get lots of shots... it would appear that deer have patterened us better'n we pattern them.
Sure I have ideas on what needs to change. VA has some neat ideas on "bonus" tags (doe) that have to be used on private land only. But that doesn't make me a wildlife expert.
I know our PGC Biologists have for years not been (NOT) been allowed to do their jobs using science. It's pollitical. And you want the legistlature, DAn, to run things or DNR?
Check out how well they've managed White Clay Creek for hunting down in Chester Co. Dupont gave DNR rights to manage land for deer only with primitive weapons. Ask the landlowners that surround the area on 3 sides how well deer are managed?
I dunno. I just hate to see us all fluffed up with anger and bile and pokin at each other. There is a problem, but I try to do some research on these issues and find there are many, many variables and no ONE source is the over-all cause!
Ok... I'll shut up and go visit other threads.
Play nice. :) It is frustrating to see things "different" but man, there has been so MANY changes everywhere I hunt... I just get the willies when I read so much about how it's all THIS or THAT fault.
Peter Drucker wrote in the 70's the only thing we can count on anymore will be that things will change...constantly!
Be well...
Post by: George D. Stout on November 23, 2009, 12:54:00 PM
I do know the stinking squirrels are mocking us and we need to get the nutters out. 8^).
Post by: danseitz on November 23, 2009, 04:27:00 PM
I talked to you a bunch of years ago at a trad shoot in western Lancaster Co. north of Rt 30. Can't think of the name of the club. At that time you were recruiting people for UBP membership and I responded to your invitation by telling you what I thought of the UBP. I began by telling you that I once was a member and had attended two state conventions. I was serious about bowhunting. Perhaps you remember talking to me. My opinion of the UBP as a shill for the PGC has not changed.
What a lot of you PGC/UBP supporters have to get clear in your head is that those of us who are telling you that the deer are gone from the public lands we used to hunt are not bumpkins who just fell off a turnip truck. We hunted for years and killed deer annually with bows and guns. The deer are gone now. Not nocturnal or rousted out of the area by dogwalkers and tweety lovers.
What happened is exactly what the PGC intended. Eradification of the deer. A bunch of us [not me] went gaga when Alt held up the big rack at his rallies and we ended up supporting the demise of the herd. The PGC program worked as intended. You guys have to start facing reality. What the PGC set out to do was accomplished. The program was a success. The deer are gone.
Post by: Doc Nock on November 23, 2009, 09:45:00 PM
That meeting was at the Fox Harbor Club just outside Mountville, PA. I do remember.
You were adament about there being no deer in Black MOshannon then as I recall. I recalled sharing that I'd visited there frequently and you could cut a 6' branch and not reach the "browse line" anywhere under the tree line!
What I do accept is that those of us who love the woods, outdoors in general, are adament in what we believe. We are passionate about our sport and our opinions.
I would never suggest that you're a bumpkin. Didn't then, not suggesting so now.
I also have spent a lot of my own life and free time studying wildlife and biology.
I used to see groups of does circle around me over and over and over in rifle season. Those does knew I was there on stand...but we were no threat. So I saw "lots" of deer.
Once we started hammering them...they got wise quick. Whitetails are the most adaptable of most American species, witnessed by their remarkable recovery from my dad's youth!
We can draw lines in the sand and spit on each other's shoes all we want. Opinons don't make facts: mine or yours.
Yes, more deer have been killed...lots more.
And I watch more deer than I ever kill and I've NEVER in my life seen more twins and triplets than since we started "eradicating" deer.
It is more than a wee bit argumentative to take the substance of my entire post and denegrate it to a mere suggestion that I postulated that dogwalkers and tweety lovers drove them off.
I said and I maintain there are many factors that have conspired to reduce deer #'s and of course, deer sightings.
I will never suggest there are not LESS deer. There are. But there are other factors that influence you, my and all these other experts in the field who no longer see deer where they used to be...
I posted another thread where I spent 3 years hunting public land around Lancaster County and I never saw a hair! I was off work so I had to hunt local. I also had the luxury of going several days in a row and finding sign overnight but never saw a deer all day from any stand, any where.
And yet, miraculously, other Lancaster County hunters did just fine and took a doe and a buck each and every year.
I suspect they were better hunter. More adaptable would be my definition of "better." They responded to changing conditions, spent more time exploring new areas where the pressure was less and found hidey holes and did fine.
They would hold a very different view of "no deer" than I would after my 3 years of dry spell.
Bottom line is that there are many folks I respect and who hunt hard who no longer see deer w here they did for many years.
I respect them, their talent and their experience and quality as hunters. They also all hunt where they always hunted.
You and I will/can agree that there are LESS deer than there were. Period. Where you and I digress, I believe, respectfully, is that I contend that those who are left, have adapted very well and altered their behaviors, travel and learned to avoid where the danger is greatest, hence, most of us...see LESS or NO deer!
ME TOO. Difference is that I believe they've adapted and I've not and want to do what I used to do the way I used to do it...
That is my choice. But that is an opinion. Opinions are like body parts, as the saying goes, and they're not FACTS...no matter how loud we shout or jesture...they're just what we each believe based on our own experiences.
Oh...and this area of Lancaster where I never saw deer...driving to work since mid summer, I've noticed not ONE dead deer along the road.
Since they cut the huge 200 acre corn fields that NEVER USED TO exist here like they are now, well, now I've sighted 15 dead deer in the past 2 weeks!
In closing...and I'll be good to my word and turn this back to the rest of you. I know this an intensely emotional issue for you and others.
Let's be clear:
*I'm NOT supporting the PGC.
*I have resigned my position in UBP and do not agree with their leadership or their public approach to representing my interests. Period.
But I do not and will not accept any other hunters evaluation of the entire state of the state's deer herd based on the type of conversations you and I have had nor that are represented here in this post. I contend there are other factors...yes! Less DEER! But I do not see evidence that they've been eradicated just because hunters aren't seeing them "like they used to or where they used to."
Less: yes. SMarter, leaner, more elusive? Yup! And that means a lot more hard work for us to find them w hat is... Sure as blazes isn't what I want at age 60 cause I don't hump the hills like I once did to go find them...
There are just too many people I know who consistently go out and find, kill and see a lot of deer to ever be able to embrace that just because I don't..or my cronies don't...that the deer are all gone.
Allow me to gracefully bow out and allow the debate to continue. I'm smart enough to know when it comes to emotional issues, it's time to agree to disagree.
Thanks for listening. May you find something afield to bring that quickening to your heart so that you might not loose all that hunting means to us all.
Peace out.
Post by: danseitz on November 24, 2009, 03:24:00 PM
If your experiences are different where you hunt, be thankful.
Post by: George D. Stout on November 24, 2009, 03:36:00 PM
Yes, we are fortunate here in Bedford County. It is the foothills of the Allegheny Mountains; lots of farms and creek valleys next to and in between the mountains. There are fewer deer here, but the bucks we see are bigger than ever, and the does have had lots of twins this past spring. Wherever there is food, there are deer. There aren't thirty in every field like there were in 1975, but that was one of the problems.
As far as a "deer eradication program" I am not privy to such a doctrine...perhaps you can tell us where one can find the specifics. Here around our area, the commission is working to enhance habitat through planting and cutting, so maybe they didn't get the memo.
Post by: ron w on November 24, 2009, 03:45:00 PM
Post by: Jeff Mccarthy on November 24, 2009, 06:36:00 PM
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 25, 2009, 02:09:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on November 25, 2009, 08:22:00 PM
There's a pretty good chance that I won't even bother getting up to go hunting Monday morning. I've had about enough. The spirit has been stolen. It ain't no fun no more. :(
I'm not blaming the PGC. I'm not blaming the UBP. I'm not blaming the DCNR. I'm blaming myself for swallowing the BS of all of the above.
Post by: monkeyball on November 25, 2009, 08:23:00 PM
Monday. I basically holster up my Redhawk and get a good walk in. From where I park on the bottom it is a solid hour to get to the top.It is a great workout. No bear,no deer,but lots of
coyote poop.
Now today I thought I would go out and freshen up
some "POSTED" signs.It was warm and rainy and the ticks were out full force.Every now and then I would stop and flick them off my pants.Well,the one time I stopped it, was more than this BIG buck could take and he exploded out of his bed about 15yds from me. That was cool.
Saw at least three very active scrapes,and jumped a couple doe. It was a really nice afternoon.It was good to see some deer.
Post by: wollelybugger on November 26, 2009, 08:14:00 AM
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 26, 2009, 09:54:00 AM
Post by: RedShaft on November 26, 2009, 01:23:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on November 27, 2009, 06:58:00 AM
Quote
A raid of 600,000 members suited in blaze orange stormed the woods last weekend with high hopes and big buck dreams. The vast majority of our rifle bearing blasters retreated back to camp after a surprise blow from our very own affiliate, the WI DNR.
Wisconsins opening weekend firearm season deer count was down roughly 33,000 from last years disaster. Hunters from across the state are furious. They demand answers, now.
A recent report from our dearly beloved DNR stated that opening mornings dense fog contributed to a lack of deer kills. My experience as a true outdoorsman and hunter tells me different. The clouds of fog that choked the forest lifted by eleven, which still gave hunters a wide-eyed chance to spot the seemingly near extinct critter us hunters call whitetail deer.
The DNRs excuses didn't stop there. They also gave a bleak attempt to blame unusual warm weather patterns for a lack of deer sightings. Deer typically bed down and find shade during the warm spells. The DNR couldn't have been more on target. Weather affects animal movement drastically. Deer react instantly to weather conditions, which ultimately helps them to survive. The DNR forgot to mention that more than 600,000 hunters invaded the so-called, deer infested forests.
I've known two things about hunting deer that the outdoor enthusiast community can agree with me on. Deer move by weather and human pressure. With over 600,000 bodies and 1,200,000 legs roaming the field, wouldn't you'd think that those bedded deer would get up and move? Apparently the DNR does not.
The DNR has done many great things for the outdoor world, but failed miserably on their most recent escapade to cull our deer herd. The DNR reported that there was an overabundance of whitetail in Wisconsin. They proceeded to condense the population of deer by implementing programs that focused on culling doe; in fact, a lot of doe. Nearly half of the state has been in Earn-a-Buck, for the last several years. The Earn-a-Buck program challenges hunters to harvest a doe before pulling the trigger on a buck. The herd reduction program didn't stop there. Many of the areas that were not included in Earn-a-Buck sported a T-Zone, which is an all out doe hunting blitz. Hunters from afar participate in this insane hunting practice to kill antlerless deer during archery season with the aid of a high-powered rifle.
Both programs have effectively reduced the once thriving deer herd in Wisconsin, but some say it's gone too far. We cannot forget that the bottom of the entire state is still locked in a CWD Zone. The zone gives hunters an opportunity to harvest an endless amount of deer. For every one doe that you shoot, a buck tag is handed to you. It has been another extremely controversial program setup by the DNR.
It isn't often that hunters criticize the DNR, considering they are the protectors and stewards of our environment. The feelings soon turn raw once hunters feel cheated. The DNR has now admitted to overestimating the deer population. Now it's time for the DNR to go back to the statistics, estimations, and records and begin a new phase of duty, which is helping the whitetail population of Wisconsin increase.
Many high-spirited first-time hunters will put down their weapon and pick up a video game controller next year. Let's face it, who would want to sit an entire weekend seeing absolutely nothing? Those bigwigs at a roundtable somewhere in Madison are slowly stripping our hunting privileges. We must band together to save what's already been lost. Hunting is our right. We must defend our love and deepest passions by speaking out. Our only defense is in numbers. Work together to achieve the common purpose to prevail.
Post by: danseitz on November 27, 2009, 09:03:00 AM
"Cheated" is exactly how I feel. The PGC has stolen our heritage.
I doubt seriously that the PGC will ever admit that they overestimated the deer population. They will continue to blame fog, warm weather that kept lazy hunters from finding the bedded deer, cold weather that kept lazy hunters in their trucks with the heater running, or any number of climatic or hunter capability issues that militated against a successful season.
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 27, 2009, 12:56:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on November 27, 2009, 02:28:00 PM
Thought I was on to something a few weeks back when I discovered an oak bench that actually had some good deer sign on it. But then the bears moved in, and that was the end of that. :(
Post by: Adirondack Bowman on November 27, 2009, 11:10:00 PM
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 28, 2009, 02:37:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on November 29, 2009, 10:43:00 AM
“As always, pre-season scouting can improve a hunter’s chance for success this year.”
That means it’s likely that even less deer will be seen tomorrow by many hunters, particularly those who have passed on the pre-season scouting and out of habit will be in the same spot tomorrow morning where they’ve been on the first morning of the season for the past five, 10, 20 years.
Critics of the commission’s deer management program, which throughout the first decade of the 21st century has led to lower deer numbers across much of the state, likely won’t be open to any explanations like that.
Even the commission’s annual survey of the observations by field staff of food conditions and wildlife populations, intended in part as a starting point for hunters in search of prime hunting spots for their desired game species, now has its critics.
A report on that survey’s notes about Central Pennsylvania appeared on the Outdoors pages last Sunday.
It included this: “Western Cumberland County: Deer numbers are good. More deer have been sighted in Michaux State forest than last year, and the gypsy moth hasn’t done much damage there this year, so deer might be expected to stick around. The central part of the county is intensively farmed, but where there are woodlots or overgrown areas you’ll find deer.”
The comment about Michaux State Forest drew an angry e-mail that said in part, “The man who issued that report must be on crack. I've seen less deer, less (scat), less rubs and less scrapes in this area between Spruce Hollow in the south mountain to Big Flat then I've seen in years.”
In a common thread among those wanting changes in the commission’s deer management program, the e-mailer called for management at a smaller scale than the large, multi-county wildlife management units currently in place, the end of doe hunting for several years, maybe an end of even buck hunting for a year, and a return to a two-week buck season and a two-day doe season, similar to what had been the status quo for many years before the new deer management program was put into place.
Regardless of the ongoing criticisms, hundreds of thousands of hunters will take to Penn’s Woods before sunrise tomorrow.
“Deer season is the most important method that the Game Commission has been using for more than a century to manage Pennsylvania’s whitetails,” said commission Executive Director Carl Roe. “The efforts of hunters are far-reaching, and they help to keep deer populations in check and enable the agency to meet deer management goals that benefit almost everyone who resides, visits or travels through this state.”
The commission in its current deer management program has employed a formula that it claims “manages deer for a healthy and productive deer herd that provides recreational opportunities within acceptable ecological impacts and human conflicts.”
Post by: danseitz on November 29, 2009, 10:48:00 AM
Post by: Earl Jeff on November 29, 2009, 04:04:00 PM
Post by: Red Beastmaster on November 29, 2009, 05:32:00 PM
After a day of lugging a borrowed slug gun my longbow will feel like a feather. :)
Good luck and be safe.
Post by: danseitz on November 29, 2009, 05:55:00 PM
Post by: Red Beastmaster on November 29, 2009, 08:08:00 PM
I shoot them all! I've really been into longbows this year 'cuz when my new Brackenbury recurve gets here I'm sure I won't put it down for a very long time! Should be finished soon.
Post by: Tioga on December 01, 2009, 12:43:00 PM
All told, I might have heard 15 distant shots between dawn and dusk even in the area where doe season was open. Don't let anyone tell you that hunters aren't getting "back in" because I ran into 4 back there.
This morning I heard 2 shots. I know of one buck that was taken. In the afternoon, I put my radio on the scan mode and was picking up all kinds of hunters that aren't very happy about what's going on. Camp next door to me usually has 12-15 hunters up. This year they have 3. I know of several camps like that where the hunters just haven't bothered coming up. It's very sad.
Post by: Peckerwood on December 01, 2009, 05:26:00 PM
It is very sad and I am pi*&ed.
Bill
Post by: monkeyball on December 01, 2009, 05:48:00 PM
way, down.
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 01, 2009, 06:44:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on December 01, 2009, 07:54:00 PM
Tweeties, trilliums? Yes. Deer? I don' think so!
Post by: RedShaft on December 01, 2009, 10:28:00 PM
Post by: JDinPA on December 01, 2009, 10:34:00 PM
I heard maybe 10 shots all afternoon.
I saw three does.
Yes, the weather was foul, but my season doe sightings have been celler low.
Post by: longbowman on December 02, 2009, 08:38:00 AM
Post by: dan ferguson on December 02, 2009, 10:45:00 AM
T
Post by: Dave Bulla on December 02, 2009, 10:51:00 AM
I grew up in Columbia county PA and started hunting when I was 12 in 1977. Moved away to join the Marines in 1984 but have been back quite a few years since then to hunt. I currently live in MO and love it.
So, that's my "history" if it makes any difference.
My take is that I think Gary Alt made a lot of sense. His theories were sound as far as management, habitat, sex ratios and age structure went. However, I think the effectiveness of hunters in PA was underestimated. Mainly, the sheer numbers of hunters and the use of small to large scale deer drives just overpowered the herd once permit numbers were opened up. Ask yourself, why does the midwest have so many big deer? Here in MO, there are LOTS of deer and we have some huge bucks. We can buy all the doe tags we want. We have an archery season that runs from September 15th to January 15th plus we can hunt on Sundays! Our main rifle season (Open for buck or doe depending on what tags you buy) is usually for 10 days around the second week of November right in the peak of the rut! We also have a separate doe only season afterwords then sometimes a late season for does again. We have far fewer acres of timber for cover. Why do we have such good deer hunting?
I never would have thought of it back when I lived in PA but I now think part of it is hunting with large gangs and putting on deer drive after deer drive. I've hunted with gangs as a kid and we would push out the whole side of a mountain, get some shooting and make note of the direction any deer ran that "got away" then go over there and do another drive. Over and over. Mountainsides or woodlots, we could push every deer in an area. Some gangs don't even sit on opening morning, just start right off with doing drives. I thought I was a good deer hunter when I lived in PA but when I moved to MO I realized that I had almost no clue how to hunt deer without pushing them, jump shooting or hunting escape routes of panicked deer.
I am kinda cringing as I write this expecting to get blasted for knocking a traditional method of hunting there in PA. I don't usually knock ANY method of hunting and drives are a method that I myself used and enjoyed as a kid but I have to stick with what I feel is an accurate observation.
Back in the 70's and 80's when we did all the driving, it was still a buck only season and only one deer per year. When doe seasons were started, it was a draw tag and you could only use it if you didn't kill a buck. Even with over a million hunters in the woods on opening morning and the use of drives, the PA herd was able to sustain the pressure because you couldn't kill but one deer. The "management" problem back then was, that deer had to be a buck and the sex ration really was screwed up BAD. I remember seeing 20 to 40 does in a day and not a single buck. That clue alone should have tipped deer managers off to the efficiency of the hunters in PA.
I think it's a simple matter of you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't have the numbers of hunters PA has and use the methods that are common and still have multiple deer permits available. They WILL get used. The deer WILL get killed. The supply WILL dry up.
As for buying doe tags to burn, that's just stupid. Especially if you go around bragging about it. All that happens is the state will say something like, "A lot of deer hunters are buying doe tags to burn. Probably 10% of the tags we sell are deliberately not used. We need to start offering 15% more tags to compensate for the radicals who burn theirs." Think it won't happen? Think again.
It's really a tough call. Trying to make changes and buck tradition in a state like PA is a loosing proposition. I hope like hell you all get it figured out. I'd like to move back there some day since all my family is there. I'm getting spoiled out here in MO.
Oh, by the way, I expect deer drives do get used out here but I've not personally seen it done. It might be a regional thing. Here where I hunt, it's mostly smaller woodlots and crop land. Picture south central PA Amish country. Down in the Ozarks with the big timber it may be different. I just don't know.
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 02, 2009, 01:21:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on December 02, 2009, 05:35:00 PM
Without the Pa deer herd in huntable numbers now, the forests can come back to a pristine state like before the dreaded deer came into the picture.
Post by: Hoser1268 on December 02, 2009, 09:29:00 PM
Post by: wollelybugger on December 03, 2009, 06:41:00 AM
Post by: Tioga on December 03, 2009, 03:41:00 PM
This really, really stinks. :( Maybe I need to go talk to Dr Alt for another indoctrination session.
Post by: Jerry Jeffer on December 03, 2009, 04:08:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on December 03, 2009, 05:14:00 PM
Post by: hawkeye n pa on December 03, 2009, 05:53:00 PM
Tioga send me that "new" school info, First time I have not seen a deer in 40 years also. Thanks in advance.
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 03, 2009, 08:32:00 PM
Post by: RC on December 03, 2009, 08:45:00 PM
My Buddy chris "landshark 160 " and myself have combined for around 25 deer and pigs this year on public land. We are not great hunters we just have great opportunities. I will say I have heard gun hunters complain about the "lack" of game on the same WMA`s we hunt. We both will hunt MILES from the truck ...that could help. I hope you fellas get some deer back. But for the record if I lived there I would scout and hunt hard but would be chasing tree rats and them grouse George was talking about. If they legal. Good hunting ,RC.
Post by: Tioga on December 04, 2009, 04:42:00 AM
Quote
But for the record if I lived there I would scout and hunt hard but would be chasing tree rats and them grouse George was talking about.If I posted the track logs from my GPS of the ground I covered since August, your feet would blister and your calves would cramp just from looking at them.
Looks like Wisconsin is up in arms to. BTW....didn't the same guy by the name of Marret Grund.....the same guy that produced the faulty population model in Pa during the early 2000s....move and become a deer biologist in Wisconsin?
http://www.channel3000.com/news/21802804/detail.html
Quote
Madison, WI Breaking NewsAssociated Press - December 3, 2009 3:45 PM ET
MADISON, Wis. (AP) - A powerful state senator wants conservation officials to fire anyone involved with deer management after hunters killed the fewest deer during Wisconsin's traditional November gun season in years.
Senate Majority Leader Russ Decker, a Weston Democrat, says the Department of Natural Resources' draconian herd control policies have devastated Wisconsin's deer population and left too many hunters empty-handed. He says he's tired of the DNR's deer experts "jerking" hunters around.
According to preliminary figures, hunters killed about 195,000 deer during the 9-day season that ended Sunday. That's down 29 percent from last year.
DNR officials had no immediate comment.
Post by: Tioga on December 04, 2009, 05:20:00 AM
Quote
October 2001 GRUND JOINS GAME COMMISSION'S DEER MANAGEMENT TEAM
Pennsylvania Game Commission Executive Director Vern Ross today announced that Dr. Marrett Grund will join the agency's Deer Management Section in mid-October. Grund will be the fourth and newest member of the management team led by Dr. Gary Alt.
Grund will serve as field research leader for studies in western Pennsylvania; lead a review of the state's deer population estimation and modeling programs; coordinate the development of a statewide deer management plan; coordinate deer hunter and other public opinion surveys; and lead the development of deer management landowner assistance programs.
"We truly are privileged to have someone of Dr. Grund's caliber and credentials join the Game Commission at this critical evolutionary point in Pennsylvania's deer management program," Ross said. "Working with our deer hunters, and with the support of our Board of Game Commissioners, Dr. Alt and the agency's Deer Management Section have made great strides toward better deer management, and we plan to continue that progress in future seasons. I believe that Dr. Grund will be an outstanding addition to that effort."
"There is no question that the Deer Management Section will benefit from Dr. Grund's research experience, which has focused on data needs for deer population modeling, and deer ecology and management in urban landscapes," Alt said. "He has conducted extensive field research that included capturing and handling deer and tracking deer using radio-telemetry. He also has coordinated deer aging and harvest data collection at check stations in a 10-county area in Illinois for the last three years."
A native of southern Minnesota, Grund currently is employed at the Southern Illinois University Cooperative Wildlife Research Laboratory. He was responsible for conducting research activities for a population modeling study in Minnesota, including studying survival data from radio-collared white-tailed deer in central Minnesota and productivity data collected throughout the state. While at Southern Illinois University, he also worked in the Zoology Department, where he prepared laboratory exercises, assisted with lectures and laboratory activities, and presented lectures on population ecology, harvest management and home-range/habitat analysis.
Prior to joining Southern Illinois University staff, Grund worked for the Illinois Department of Natural Resources from 1998 to 2000, and for the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources from 1992 to 1998. In both states, Grund was an important part of the deer management program, deer research and public outreach efforts.
Grund earned a bachelor's degree in biology from Minnesota State University; a master's degree in fisheries and wildlife with an emphasis in wildlife biology from the University of Missouri; and will receive his doctorate in zoology with an emphasis in wildlife ecology from Southern Illinois University in December.
"I am incredibly excited about the changes going on in Pennsylvania's deer management program, and I look forward to be a part of the team," Grund said. "From all I've learned, I truly believe that Pennsylvania is headed in the right direction, and it will be the program that other states will look to as a model in the years to come."
Over the last decade, Grund has written more than a dozen professional and popular articles and technical reports on various aspects of deer ecology and management. He is a member of The Wildlife Society.
At 29 years of age, Grund has hunted deer with rifle, shotgun and bow, and is an avid grouse hunter. He and his wife, Melanie, and their one-year-old daughter, Cameron, plan to reside in southern Butler County.
Post by: danseitz on December 04, 2009, 10:36:00 AM
Post by: Tioga on December 04, 2009, 10:52:00 AM
But as far as I'm concerned, Elmerton Avenue needs to be cleaned out, locked down and rebuilt from the ground floor up. The arrogance displayed in that building is unbelievable.
Post by: hawkeye n pa on December 05, 2009, 10:13:00 AM
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 05, 2009, 03:39:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on December 06, 2009, 08:46:00 AM
Last year the pressure was pretty heavy in 2G on the doe opener. I'm wondering if the camps won't be filling up today for the rest of the week? :confused:
Post by: Littlejake on December 06, 2009, 11:27:00 AM
put on a big drive in the north mountain yesterday 18 does and 4 bucks killed..Wonder why there are no deer around?
Post by: Big Ed on December 06, 2009, 11:40:00 AM
Post by: Dave Bulla on December 06, 2009, 12:00:00 PM
That's pretty much what I was talking about as far as big drives go. The fact that the hunters mentioned were Amish is to me, irrelevant. In my experience, the Amish are very honest, good people. There aren't many Amish around where I grew up but there were certainly truckloads of other hunters going to the big drives.
Post by: mooseman76 on December 06, 2009, 01:04:00 PM
I do hear many of the same comments posted here from local hunters. I'm hunting private land so maybe that helps out. No doubt that the kill has gone down in the past few years, the number of deer at the processor prove that, but overall I can't complain. I wish you guys luck the remainder of this season and in seasons to come...Mike
Post by: Tioga on December 06, 2009, 01:39:00 PM
Quote
Two 15 passenger vans,and a pickup full of AmishThat's more people than can legally hunt in one group. They should be reported.
put on a big drive in the north mountain yesterday 18 does and 4 bucks killed..
Post by: Littlejake on December 06, 2009, 01:52:00 PM
Post by: RedShaft on December 06, 2009, 05:27:00 PM
Post by: Big Ed on December 06, 2009, 07:33:00 PM
As far as the Game Wardens go I have a ton of repect for them. They are spread way to thin. It is not there fault it is the Game Commissions.
I am very lucky to have larger tracts of private land to hunt or I probably would travel out of state to hunt.
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 08, 2009, 10:39:00 AM
Post by: Tioga on December 11, 2009, 09:33:00 PM
Story (http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/sports/78456012.html)
Quote
On the TrailJournal Sentinel outdoors editor Paul A. Smith offers news, notes and perspective on the great outdoors.Deckers Letter.....
Decker: Fire DNR's big game managers
By Paul A. Smith of the Journal Sentinel
Dec. 3, 2009
On the heels of the 2009 gun deer season in which hunters registered the fewest deer in 27 years, State Senator Russ Decker (D–Weston) is calling on the Secretary of the Department of Natural Resources to replace the department’s big game wildlife management team.
“I’ve talked with a lot of hunters and business people and everyone has said that this was the worst deer hunting season they have ever had," said Decker in a statement released Thursday. "The DNR has mismanaged the deer herd and a new team needs to be brought in that can do the job.”
Decker said if DNR secretary Matt Frank doesn't take action then the Natural Resources Board should.
Hunters registered 195,647 deer in the nine-day gun season that ended Sunday, a 29% drop from 2008 and the lowest total since 1982.
Decker said "Horse hockey" in response to the DNR's explanations for poor harvests the last two years.
“The DNR has become a master of excuses and hunters are sick of them," said Decker, who said he hunted in Lincoln County. "We need a management team who knows what they are doing and one that listens to hunters. The DNR’s earn-a-buck policy, early hunts and wolves are the reason the deer population in Central and Northern Wisconsin is decimated. Hunters have had the DNR’s overzealous deer management plans crammed down our throats the past few years and what we got was what we knew was going to happen, hunting seasons without many deer in the woods."
Decker said the only good thing to come out of the season was the new mentored hunting program.
The Natural Resources Board is scheduled to hear a report on the 2009 gun deer season and make a decision on the 2010 season format at its meeting next week in Madison.
Letter (http://media.journalinteractive.com/documents/Decker_deerhunt.pdf)
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For Immediate Release December 3, 2009
Contact: Senator Russ Decker, (608) 266-2502 or (715) 359-8739
Decker: Fire the DNR’s Big Game Management Team
Madison - After a second consecutive terrible deer hunting season and the worst since 1982, State
Senator Russ Decker (D–Weston) is calling on the Secretary of the Department of Natural Resources
(DNR), Matt Frank, to replace the Department’s big game wildlife management team and if he does
not then the DNR Board should.
“I’ve talked with a lot of hunters and business people and everyone has said that this was the worst
deer hunting season they have ever had. The DNR has mismanaged the deer herd and a new team
needs to be brought in that can do the job,” said Decker.
Last season the DNR’s excuse for the lousy season was that they underestimated the impact of the
harsh 2007-08 winter and that hunters were only in the woods for three or four hours at a time and
might have only hunted a few days out of the nine day season.
“Horse hockey,” said Decker.
This year according to DNR conservation warden Michael Young, warm weather, corn and wet
conditions were responsible for the abysmal harvest. He was quoted in the Green Bay Press Gazette
as saying “We’ve got the warm weather. We’ve got a whole lot of corn up. We’ve got a lot of water …
and a lot of hunters don’t want to go into a lot of areas because they’re going to get wet. …And those
areas are accessible to deer. So they’ll find a nice wet area to hide in and unless somebody steps on
them, they’re not going to move.”
In its state bulletin, the Wisconsin State Climatology office notes that it was very dry in late summer
and September with slightly above-normal rains in late September and October.
“The swamps were pretty dry where our crew was hunting in Lincoln County,” said Decker, who
added, “we don’t let a little water stop us from going after deer.”
Decker went on to say “Our hunting group makes drives and there were simply not many deer. The
DNR has become a master of excuses and hunters are sick of them. We need a management team who
knows what they are doing and one that listens to hunters. The DNR’s earn-a-buck policy, early hunts
and wolves are the reason the deer population in Central and Northern Wisconsin is decimated.
Hunters have had the DNR’s overzealous deer management plans crammed down our throats the past
few years and what we got was what we knew was going to happen, hunting seasons without many
deer in the woods.
“The only good thing to come out this deer season was the mentored hunting program that the
Legislature passed, allowing 10 and 11 year olds to hunt with an adult as long as there is only one
weapon between the two hunters and they are always within arm’s reach of one another,” concluded
Decker.
Post by: Tioga on December 11, 2009, 09:35:00 PM
Story (http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/78575472.html)
Quote
DNR backs off proposal for longer gun deer season
By Paul A. Smith of the Journal Sentinel
Posted: Dec. 4, 2009
On the Trail Blog
Journal Sentinel outdoors editor Paul A. Smith offers news, notes and perspective on the great outdoors.
The Department of Natural Resources has tabled its proposal for a 16-day gun deer hunt in 2010.
The announcement came Friday in a letter from DNR secretary Matt Frank to the Natural Resources Board.
"Given the preliminary harvest numbers for the 2009 nine-day hunt, we believe it is appropriate to postpone consideration of alternative herd control measures," Frank says in the letter.
Hunters registered 195,647 deer during the 2009 gun hunt that ended Sunday, the fewest in 27 years and 29% less than 2008.
The DNR had planned to present a proposal for a 16-day gun hunt at Tuesday's board meeting in Madison. The proposal resulted from an Earn-A-Buck Alternative Committee, consisting of representatives of conservation, hunting, forestry and agricultural interests.
But the recent low harvest has increased calls from hunters and politicians to do away with any additional deer control strategies.
"I think it's a good move at this point," said George Meyer of Madison, former DNR secretary and current executive director of the Wisconsin Wildlife Federation. "There is a high level of frustration around the state, and this will allow people to more carefully consider the next step."
DNR officials have come under increasing pressure this week as dissatisfaction spread from the ranks of the 638,040 gun deer hunters.
State Sen. Russ Decker (D-Schofield) on Thursday called on the DNR to replace its deer management team, and 22 legislators on Friday requested that the department cancel an antlerless-only hunt planned for Dec. 10-13.
The deer hunting season format is typically finalized each year in April.
"The department will continue to strive for the best deer hunting in the nation with a healthy, sustainable deer herd in balance with its habitat, including keeping crop and forest damage at tolerable levels," Frank said. "We look forward to working with the board, the Legislature, hunters, farmers, forest owners and the public over the months to come."
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 12, 2009, 01:35:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on December 12, 2009, 04:53:00 PM
[email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected];
Post by: monkeyball on December 12, 2009, 07:06:00 PM
Post by: Big Ed on December 12, 2009, 07:15:00 PM
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 12, 2009, 07:24:00 PM
Post by: hawkeye n pa on December 12, 2009, 07:25:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on December 12, 2009, 08:04:00 PM
Post by: Red Beastmaster on December 12, 2009, 11:04:00 PM
Or maybe there was nothing to shoot at.
Post by: wollelybugger on December 13, 2009, 06:31:00 AM
Post by: danseitz on December 13, 2009, 07:58:00 AM
Hey, this is fun! See how many fairy tales you can come up with.
Post by: Dave Bulla on December 13, 2009, 12:59:00 PM
Kinda like a quote I read from I think Slim Pickens who walked up to a counter in one of the western states and asked for an elephant hunting license. The clerk asks him to repeat himself and he says "I'd like to buy an elephant license." The clerk says, "Sir we don't sell elephant licenses. There are no elephants to hunt in this state." And Slim answers back, "Well, I've hunted hard for two whole weeks and near as I can tell, you don't have any elk either but you sold me a license to hunt them!"
Post by: customcrester on December 13, 2009, 04:08:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on December 13, 2009, 04:30:00 PM
Quote
I finialy killed one but i think he was blind and def he was so old,lol.Heck I'm so hard up for deer meat that I'd settle for one of those. :D
Post by: RedShaft on December 13, 2009, 04:41:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on December 13, 2009, 06:12:00 PM
What really burns my butt is that unless a guy gets into an area that has been cut and allows the sun to get in, there's no new oak regeneration that I can see. 100 year old hardwood ridges that haven't been thinned or cut are same ol' same ol'.
I don't subscribe to any of the conspiracy theories, but I have to believe that if we don't get a handle on this madness, our hunting heritage here in Pa is going to be in big trouble. :(
Post by: Tioga on December 13, 2009, 08:14:00 PM
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My thoughts: Public land hunters must now be flexible to find the pockets of deer. I know some good spots and do not share them. You should do the same.
Also, there really is only enough deer habitat in this state for 700,000 deer hunters. WE MUST SHED HUNTERS. It will be painfull in $$$ terms(short term). But, the quicker the better. The big racks being taken will keep us stable at 750,000 or so hunters. Big bucks sell licenses!!! It won't be quanity now. It will be quality. Also, rack hunters will pay more $$$ for licenses and not complain about it. Once the complainers are gone, we can get the much needed license hike and it will offset the loss in #'s.
Post by: RedShaft on December 13, 2009, 10:05:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on December 14, 2009, 10:43:00 AM
Post by: Izzy on December 14, 2009, 12:47:00 PM
Post by: ErikT on December 14, 2009, 04:28:00 PM
Post by: Tioga on December 14, 2009, 05:44:00 PM
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Why are there now so many more 2.5 year old and 3.5 year old bucks being taken in PA?It stands to reason, that with an AR program, more bucks will be moved into older age classes provided they don't get shot as 7 month old button bucks due to higher doe tag allocations. No science there. How many more bucks are being pushed into this age class is anybodies guess this year. But I'm willing to wager that the buck harvest in 2G will be down by at least 20% this year as compared to last year(which was way down to begin with) and that the total statewide buck harvest "PGC estimate" with be below 110K. Nothing to write home about really.
But......riddle me this. If in fact, our herd health has improved, and the breeding window has gone from 5 months to 2 months, and our fawns are being dropped in a shorter time span, and our fawns are born healthier.....then using your words "many more 2.5 year old and 3.5 year old bucks being taken in PA", why are so many sublegal bucks being born and making it to the next age class. One would think that bucks born to healthier does would have a great chance of becoming AR legal 18 month old deer. Not?
Quote
Before, all I saw was 18 month old bucks and there were a lot more of them!Yup. That's was before so many button bucks were getting harvested as does thanks to higher doe tag allocations and longer doe seasons. BTW...I made great enjoyment out of seeing those 18 month old deer. Sure beat the heck out of staring at the trillium growing like I do now.
Quote
I also used to see "herds" of deer pass through my stand in rifle season. There would be lines of up to 20 does run buy with maybe a spike or forkhorn at the rear.I can't relate to that because I've never seen a herd of deer that size on any single day that I've hunted Tioga County over the last 30 years. But one thing I can relate to is that we've been hunting and killing 2.5 and older year old deer in Tioga County for many many moons partner. Mature deer ain't nothin' new in these parts.
Quote
Now, I usually see a singles or small groups.Count your blessings. I've seen one "group" this year. A doe and her fawn. And they both went over the hill and fell victim to a pair of 30/06s.
Post by: danseitz on December 14, 2009, 08:19:00 PM
Do not expect anything from the game commission. Most likely their figures won't show a decline. They'll talk about the success they've had in providing hunting "opportunities." Try eating an "opportunity." I expect the usual bs laden harvest report that has been a specialty the last dozen years. Crossgun sales are on the rise, so the "archery???" season will be filled with rifle hunters taking advantage of a "hunting opportunity." Yippee!
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 14, 2009, 08:35:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love the antler restriction, it slaughtering the rest of the herd I'm against
Post by: danseitz on December 15, 2009, 02:00:00 PM
how do you know that there are?
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 15, 2009, 02:50:00 PM
Post by: ErikT on December 15, 2009, 03:18:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by danseitz:Dan, That was my quote. It is what I see and experience through personal observation. It only stands to reason that more deer in this age class will be killed because a/r allow them to carry over.
Earl jeff,
how do you know that there are?
Tioga has a point in that we are not seeing a greater number of 18 month old deer that are a/r legal. You would think that we would with a genetically superior and healthier deer herd but I think I saw more a/r legal 18 month old's prior to the antler restrictions. Then again, there were a lot more of them to look at then!
Post by: danseitz on December 15, 2009, 04:16:00 PM
The problem is that the herd is so low in many public areas that it isn't worth hunting there anymore. That is the big change. Public land--where we are allowed to hunt--has been devistated. It's a vicious cycle. The PGC issues tons of doe tags for whatever reason and the public lands get pounded...BECAUSE that is where we are allowed to hunt.
So does the existance of big bucks in the state get me excited? The answer is a resounding NO. Why? Because it doesn't apply to me. I don't have access to private ground that has big bucks or deer period for that matter. All that I got from the Alt fiasco is public land with very few deer and the stated committment from the PGC herd elimination program people to keeps things that way.
Post by: Earl Jeff on December 15, 2009, 04:37:00 PM
Post by: Jim Keller on December 15, 2009, 09:05:00 PM
Post by: danseitz on December 16, 2009, 09:42:00 AM
Post by: Jim Keller on December 17, 2009, 10:00:00 AM
Post by: danseitz on December 18, 2009, 08:21:00 AM
Post by: BigHink66 on December 21, 2009, 10:49:00 AM
For the most part the deer hunting has gotten worse.
Private land has become more private since the AR and HR began. They still have lots of deer in some locations. Access has become an issue. The amount of property being leased has significantly increased also. Everyone is a trophy hunter now.
The number of archery hunters is way up over when I started almost 20 years ago and the amount of rifle hunters seems to be down.
Everyone sits in a stand also, which doesn't help with movement. Used to be guys kept deer moving all day, not no one wants to move around.
In fact, across the state their has been a big change in deer hunters attitudes towards others. Lots of in fighting amongst and between groups. Lots of criticism for other or different types of hunting.
I think the health of the habitat has improved and would be glad to see more grouse and other species as a trade off. They could allow the deer to come back in some areas and I think they should. Not to the levels of seeing 50 a day, but to consistently see a deer or two would be nice.
Personally I think the outlook is dismal for this state and deer hunting. Hunting in general.
Post by: Tioga on December 30, 2009, 11:25:00 AM
These deer numbers are truly pathetic and they aren't going to change until the house is cleaned out and rebuilt on Elmerton Avenue.. I have no reason to kill another deer until the Pa Game Commission recognises the predator problem in NC Pa and initiates a program in the form of more opps for bear hunters and more opps for bobcat harvest along with lower antlerless allocations in the NC counties. That's the view from my part of the state and I'm sure that others in other parts of the state agree.
For you folks that are still experiencing good deer hunting, all I can say is protect it at all costs, because many of us have seen our deer hunting go right down the tubes for no good reason at all.
Post by: Bob Macioch on December 30, 2009, 06:38:00 PM
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Originally posted by Jim Keller:I can tell you Pa and NY are going in the same direction.They both are now dependent on the money from doe permits.They will continue to give out tons of permits even if there are less deer.No science there.JUST GREED
I think antler restrictions will work, but not with our current program of low deer numbers. I remember when Gary Alt was selling it, I said to a buddy that it would really help our taxidermy businesses. He didn't agree. He was really worried about the doe kill. He was right, I was wrong. When all deer numbers go down, so do the big buck numbers. Where I hunt in Clearfield Co. the scrubs are breeding, that's mostly what we have. The finny thing is ,it's not just Pa.. I'm reading it on here about Wis. hunters are upset and N.Y. hunters too.
Post by: Tioga on January 04, 2010, 10:34:00 PM
DCNR DEER STUDY (http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/polycomm/res2001/deercheckpoints0101.htm)
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DCNR Studies Gauging Health of Forests, Deer
Ice choked the slower waters of Pine Creek, snow squalls whipped through the stream valley, and gusting winds of an Arctic front were downing tree limbs everywhere. It was not a good day to be hunting deer in this stretch of Tioga State Forest.
But, says DCNR wildlife biologist Merlin Benner, you should have been here yesterday. Or, more precisely, Nov. 27 through the 29, when the state’s regular antlered deer season opened.
On those days, Benner and his Bureau of Forestry colleagues were kept busy checking and weighing deer: big deer, healthy deer. Bucks that sported 6- and 8-point sets of antlers and does whose size showed food was abundant.
But that was yesterday. Today, on the second day of the state’s antlerless deer season, Benner sat idle in his deer-check trailer not far from Lycoming-Tioga county line. Today weather would be the deer’s strongest ally, and Benner would have time to discuss what he and the Bureau of Forestry are trying to accomplish by staffing deer-check stations in both Tioga and Elk state forests.
Above Benner hangs a map delineating an 18,000-acre tract within Tioga State Forest. A combination of pins and other makings tell the biologist where forest regeneration is being monitored; where deer habitat is best and deer numbers highest; and, finally, where hunters are killing deer.
“We are keeping one eye on where forest vegetation is rebounding,” Benner said, “and another on deer densities. As a result, we are able to direct hunters to areas where their chances of seeing deer are good.”
The Tioga study and a similar one in the Quehanna Wild Area of Elk State Forest are supplying the Bureau of Forestry with invaluable data on what happens in a forest when deer multiply beyond a woodland’s carrying capacity. It also gives some hunters needed ingredients for success.
“Just about everyone who comes through these doors has been pleased with what they have seen in the Tioga tract,” Benner said. “One man stopped in on the third day of buck season, asked for some suggested areas, tried one, and came back with a beautiful eight-pointer.” Most of the deer weighed in this year have been large and well fed, the biologist said.
That was not always the case, Benner said. Too many deer took too great a toll on available browse and other foods in the Tioga State Forest tract. Too many deer, mostly protected does, were tilting a fragile balance, and the population in this study area plummeted.
“The equation for a healthy forest is a simple one,” the biologist said. “The more deer you have, the more have to be shot. If not, we will return to not so many years ago when the population collapsed because of too many animals and too little food.”
Successful hunters, most of whom are grateful to participate, are asked when and where they killed their deer. They then watch as Bureau of Forestry personnel weigh the animals, measure its girth and, if a buck, the spread and thickness of antlers. Finally, a tooth is extracted for aging.
The teeth and study data will be forwarded to the state Game Commission, whose Deer Management Section has stated a commitment to deer management policies that seek both a healthy deer herd and thriving forests rich in biodiversity.
As the 2001 hunting season approaches next fall, hunters wishing to participate in the deer-check studies can receive details by telephoning Elk State Forest at (814) 486-3353, or Tioga State Forest at (570) 724-2868.