Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Buckeye Trad Hunter on December 05, 2009, 04:19:00 PM
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I posted a poll a while back about spike bucks wanting to know if they were just late born fawns or if they were geneticly deficient. After the general consensus being that they are simply late fawns I started wondering about button bucks. Same question, really late fawns or geneticly deficient deer that will never be more than a scrub?
I also read somewhere that certain people harvest as many buttons as legaly allowed every so many years, so I guess this will be a two question poll. Is this a good practice or not?
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Why anyone would shoot there young bucks on purpose is really confusing to me.
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I never shoot them. I always though all buttons were just typical buck fawns. What should they have if they were early born?
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Button buckas are just 6 month old male deer.
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Most places I've hunted, if you are to harvest an antlerless deer, most of the time they (the locals) would prefer you take a female and leave the button bucks grow. Button bucks are just typical male deer of the year and that is absolutely not an indication as to their genetic potential.
I have shot a few button bucks though, sometimes not seeing the buttons when they are not really visible and sometimes on purpose in very high deer density areas.
I didn't vote because I don't feel that the questions are worded to give me a precise option. Sorry.
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I didn't vote either- with rare exceptions button bucks are just young of the year. They don't grow their first real antlers until the next year.
I have seen one button buck that was a 1 1/2 year old deer, but that's truly rare.
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All bucks start as button bucks. Most buck fawns born in the spring will be button bucks thier first fall. Most will not grow antlers untill they are about 1 1/2 so it has nothing to do with geneticly deficient but age just IMHO.
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On our farm I shoot button bucks. From the research I have read when the button bucks get to be 18 month olds or there about the does will drive them out of their territory and since the does on our farm are in their resident location their male offspring are not what will be repopulating our mature buck census. If I'm making the best use of the nutritional resources to feed does and the bucks that might be moving into our area it makes sense to me to cull the button bucks over taking does or fawn does.
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Non-typical, I'm sure your neighbors appreciate that!
The area I hunt in MO (southwest)is overpopulated with does, to the point that the wildlife department is considering moving the gun season back until after the rut, to protect the bucks and hopefully get people to shoot more does. I'm going up in two weeks for the muzzleloader season to help do my part!
On the other hand, if they move the gun season, that means the rut will be bows only! :)
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I had a button hang around for a few years till he was a nice buck.the neighbor shot him in his third winter. I was hoping to see him go one more year.
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I too am confused why anyone would choose to shoot button bucks when they could shoot does.
The backwards line of reasoning that shows up in regards to "culling bucks" or not shooting does just makes no sense.
I am far from a trophy hunter but if you shoot the 1st legal buck that walks past you will never get an opportunity to take an upper end deer for your area.
If you want to kill something take a doe....and then take another.
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IMO, every buck deer will probably end up being a really nice buck if they are given enough time. I mess around and shoot one every now and then....
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Where I hunt a button buck would be considered antlerless meaning that you could possibly take one during doe season. However, I don't see why you would shoot a small button buck instead of a nice big fat doe and get a little more food.
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I would rather kill the does that way she won't be able to run off her button bucks. Then they will take up residence there if they have enough food. LCH
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Does will run off button bucks when they come into heat. I've seen a button buck try to mount his mama, early in the season. I've also seen a branch-antlered buck repeatedly run off a button buck during the rut when he was interested in the doe.
Many button bucks get shot for does after they have been run off. During and after the rut, young single deer are almost always buttons. I've learned to shoot does from family groups instead of shooting the singles, because so many of them are buttons.
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They just youngens, Plus I'll shoot one or two a year if they give me a broadside shot.
In the wild a true hunter will take the young ones. I feel it is just a part of nature to do so. This doesn't make me a bad hunter and if ANYONE thinks it does, O-well.. It doesn't.
Just because You don't, Don't try and tell me how to hunt and what to take. I am a Hunter, I hunt for Meat, The Young ones are the best eating.
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I have seen bucks with their antlers on in March; and a friend gutted a doe in the middle of September with a fawn in it.
While we whackem and stackem bucks during breeding seasons - some does go unbred; and they keep coming into heat if they are mature does ( mature is totally a guess - kinda makes sense I think ).
If you can see the buttons - well you decide.
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I feel that button bucks are the dumbest deer in the woods . They are run out of the doe groups and can't hang with the big boys yet . Our state legalized baiting a few years back and the first deer into a bait pile is almost always a button buck . Being antlerless you can shoot unlimited buttons in some zones . We have a good doe population but few good bucks . Can't get big ones if you shoot all the small ones . I've learned to be a little picky . Just my thoughts , not judging anyone else ,
Fred
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If you have a button come in with a doe and harvest the doe, the buck will stick around. Otherwise you are just killing off your trophies before they are mature deer.
I used to have the attitude if it's brown it's down but after mellowing out and growing to understand the real reason I hunt I have harvested two nice mature deer the last two years. And did'n't harvest a buck for four years before then. I seen one this year that was P&Y on several occasions up close but never got the connection during bow season. He is not the one I took because another mature deer presented me with an opportunity during gun season on a diiferent place I hunt and I took him.
Maybe the big boy will be an even bigger boy next year if he makes it through all the seasons and I'll get a shot at him with a bow I'm building, Wouldn't that be awsome!
Kris
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Button bucks are the current year’s fawns. They’re not late fawns and they’re not genetically inferior they’re simply 6 months old. All of their body’s energy is going to skeleton and muscle building and at the same time they are trying build up a fat reserve for winter. I never shoot them purposely. That’s one reason for wearing binoculars, so I can inspect the deer’s head as it is coming in. If it’s a button buck he gets a free pass.
Originally posted by non-typical:
On our farm I shoot button bucks. From the research I have read when the button bucks get to be 18 month olds or there about the does will drive them out of their territory and since the does on our farm are in their resident location their male offspring are not what will be repopulating our mature buck census. If I'm making the best use of the nutritional resources to feed does and the bucks that might be moving into our area it makes sense to me to cull the button bucks over taking does or fawn does.
I respectfully disagree.
This doesn’t make any sense. The button’s mother will run him off and it will be before he is 1.5 years old. The button will be run off by the following spring at the latest so that she can prepare for the new fawn that is coming. The button buck’s mother will also run off other does at this time so she can secure a safe birthplace for the new fawn.
If there are a lot of bucks in your area they will also push last year’s button buck away but that doesn’t mean he won’t return someday…that is if he is allowed to survive as a button buck and a yearling. Some studies have shown (I’ve read this in Quality Deer Management or Deer and Deer Hunting Magazine) that buck’s will occasionally return to their birthplace later in their lives. Sometimes they are only passing through and sometimes they will make the their birthplace part of their home range.
If everyone shot button bucks because they thought they were using up nutritional resources, then you wouldn’t have any bucks “moving into your area” because eventually they would all be shot. If you are interested in trying to keep the button bucks in your area the best thing you can do to increase those odds is to shoot his mother.
Every study that I have read says to shoot does to control the deer population and manage the resources in an area. If you are interested in trying to produce a quality deer herd and grow some large antlered bucks, then letting the little guys walk and shooting does is the answer. If you are only interested in meat for the freezer then shoot whatever deer offers you a shot.
Good luck.
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I wasn't trying to beat on anybody who shoots button bucks, I'm just saying that I probably wouldn't do it. I did however, forget to take into account that you can't always tell if it's a button buck or a doe.
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Tom,
we're intrested in increasing our doe population around here,not the buck population. Last year the mature herd got devistated by hemorragic fever and our numbers are down by 2/3. When the deer yard up in Jan/Feb we used to see 60 deer of an evening...last year the most we saw was 19. Coupled with the fever issue our neighbor to the west allowed his 2 friends from the big city to take 14 deer 2 years ago and 17 last year during firearms season....all but a couple were does. When he mentioned that the numbers were down it opened the door for a good discussion of the issue. With the amount of cover we have in the area our big bucks seem to survive, that coupled with the antler restrictions has the buck side of the population doing well, whereas the doe numbers are down. Shooting a button buck or two for meat instead of a doe is just good management.
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seems to me it's all a matter of perspective and the land you're hunting. I own and hunt 50 acres, that has at best two doe groups on it. I'd rather take a button buck before I take a doe... I like to keep the does there, to draw in the bucks.
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Sounds like some "trigger finger management" is needed IMO. In PA where we had some mountain land the local biologist said to take 1 (maybe 2) does for every 100 acres. Alot depends on how fertile your ground is but taking that many does seems kind of high.
We are all stuck with our neighbors for better or for worse. If you are bordered by someone who shoots anything that walks that will have a major impact on your hunting. With "if it's brown it's down" for a neighbor you won't be able to do a thing to impact "your" deer.
Shooting button bucks instead of does?!
The word "management" seems to get thrown around quite a bit.
Can't tell a button buck from a doe at less than 20 yards?!
Not "hating" on anyone...if you want to shoot any deer that happens by be my guest. Just please don't try to rationalize it as "management."
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Jcar, define management for me will you and tell me how each of us as we impact a resource is not a steward of the land we use and meat we harvest.
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Good points jcar.
The reason I mentioned not telling the difference was because my dad and I hunt the rifle season, and buck only. My dad shoots a rifle, I shoot a bow. Yeah, I know, it's a sucky set up but I live with it. Anyway, we spot deer at 200+ yards average, if it doesn't have a horn, than we pass it by. In the area we hunt, stand hunting is almost impossible. We walk around until we see a group of deer, when we do, we check for antlers, if we don't see one, we move on. You would never be able to tell the difference from that range. Just my reasoning. But your right, when a group walks in at 50 yards, it's pretty easy to tell the difference.
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Originally posted by non-typical:
Tom,
we're intrested in increasing our doe population around here,not the buck population. Last year the mature herd got devistated by hemorragic fever and our numbers are down by 2/3. When the deer yard up in Jan/Feb we used to see 60 deer of an evening...last year the most we saw was 19. Coupled with the fever issue our neighbor to the west allowed his 2 friends from the big city to take 14 deer 2 years ago and 17 last year during firearms season....all but a couple were does. When he mentioned that the numbers were down it opened the door for a good discussion of the issue. With the amount of cover we have in the area our big bucks seem to survive, that coupled with the antler restrictions has the buck side of the population doing well, whereas the doe numbers are down. Shooting a button buck or two for meat instead of a doe is just good management.
If you are trying to increase the herd population around you, then protecting the does is the right thing to do. I hope you and your neighbor can come to a happy medium to improve the herd around you. I live in an area where the conservation department considers a dead doe to be a good doe.
The deer herd around us is a conservation success story run amuck. How has your season be this year? Good I hope :goldtooth:
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Non-typical....Respectfully, your deer program is seriously, ginormously not going in the right direction to meet your goals.
Need more does? Harvest fewer total BUT only fawns and yearlings
Need more bucks? Never harvest button heads
Need fewer bucks? Hunt harder and harvest ONLY older ones and never shoot younger ones
Don't want any bucks? Harvest buck fawns
Don't want any does? Don't harvest any and allow disease to UNselectively manage for you. STUPID idea.
Two things are sure to naturally occur in an unhunted (man, cats or canines) and unmanaged deer population...
More does mainly due to less natural mortality and less bucks due to HIGH natural mortality (many means of buck death).
Sal....
You are already sounding defensive. Defensive usually means guilt. I personally think it should in your case.
Since when does a "true hunter" want to harvest a young buck instead of a young doe? I do agree the young tastes the best....so harvest the young does. There are plenty of them and not so plenty young bucks. What a waste.
Wild predators are not sex selective but yes they do like the young ones because they are easy prey...ignorant and slow.
I think that a more sophisticated predator would be more selective than a coyote or lion and ponder the future of our prey items before preying.
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Richie, I'm not sure you should be so quick to jump on Sal. Is there really a difference between a yearling doe and a yearling buck other than future antlers to hang on your wall? if you grilled up a couple of backstaps of each, I doubt you would know the difference.
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Richie,
respectfully back at you, harvesting younger females and a button buck is what we have been doing which parallells your claims.
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larry,
Sure, I know for a fact that they would taste the same.
I am referring to the taking of young bucks out of the herd versus taking young does out. More sense is made by taking the doe.
I thought that "managing" was the underlying thought here.
If he wasn't referring to that please except my apology.
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Harvesting the young does will allow the residual population of mature does to produce more deer.
"and a button buck" What do you mean?
Are you minimizing the young buck harvest or intentionally taking the button heads at will?
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Managers: We all have worked for and with some good ones....and we all have worked for some who didn't know which way was up but somehow had the title "manager" after their name.
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Originally posted by Richie Nell:
Sal....
You are already sounding defensive. Defensive usually means guilt. I personally think it should in your case.
Guilt of what? Already saying I shoot 1 or 2 BB's a year???
Originally posted by mysticguido:
I'll shoot one or two a year if they give me a broadside shot.
In the wild a true hunter will take the young ones. I feel it is just a part of nature to do so. This doesn't make me a bad hunter and if ANYONE thinks it does, O-well.. It doesn't.
Just because You don't, Don't try and tell me how to hunt and what to take. I am a Hunter, I hunt for Meat, The Young ones are the best eating.[/QB]
Then Yes, Because I have and I even said I have. When I lived in New Jersey where I did most of my hunting in a area that was over run with deer, You had to do it. It was way better to take out some young ones and eat the meat, Then have them hit by cars and waist the meat.
Different areas of New jersey would have so many deer you couldn't count them, When other areas you might see one deer a year.
I live in Texas (Again) now, So I may not ever shoot another BB. But I do feel that sometime You should and that it's OK to.
Why is it every time this subject comes Up some feel that how someone hunts is bad? I don't hunt deer just for the size of a bucks rack. I also don't tell the ones that do, If You shoot only bucks your doing nothing but hurting the heard.
But Richie, I would like to know what You meant by what You said... Please PM me about what you meant by it...
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Gatekeeper
You said:
[QB] Button bucks are the current year’s fawns. They’re not late fawns and they’re not genetically inferior they’re simply 6 months old.
I agree that they are this years fawns; but I am not so sure about them not being late fawns. Surely if bucks are breeding into March; the fawns will be born later.. ?
Then too; I have not seen fork horn deer; or younger deer hold onto their antlers as long as really big bucks. Antler score aside; if a big deer makes it through the gauntlet of fall and winter- wouldn't his 'genetic genius' be more valuable to a wild herd ?
Where I have hunted; buck fawns can be seen with spikes; and small forks ... I was thinking these were early bred and born bucks....
I am willing to be wrong; but ... am I ?
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I agree with you guys who are saying it is wiser to take a Doe rather than a Button Buck.....I just don't think enough emphasis is being put on the fact that most Buttons are being taken while being MISTAKEN for a doe.....
I don't know about everyone else's vision, or ability to identify critters........and I'm definitely a greenhorn compared to most every one of you guys............but from the 18 yards that I just shot my first Trad Kill, (yup, a Button) I was under the distinct impression I WAS shooting a Doe....the little lady says with that kind of confusion I oughtta look under the covers before bed at night just to be sure a things .......quit laughing Y'all show some respect .....LOL .javascript:void(0) javascript:void(0)
...........by the way, lets call a spade a spade...this wasn't just my first Trad Kill, it was my first any method kill...... LOL....put the fork down for a second boys and and raise your beers !!
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Non-typical, the fact that you had a big die-off caused by disease is the surest evidence that you had too many deer. Usually that means too many does. Your neighbors may have done you a favor by thinning them down- too bad they didn't do it before the disease (Nature's way) took hold.
The way to prevent it from happening again is to shoot as many does as bucks. As Richie mentioned, bucks have a higher natural mortality rate, and if you shoot does and bucks equally, you will still have more does than bucks. Personally, I'd rather shoot mature bucks than buttons, but to each his own. I'll shoot a button when my freezer's empty, but not when I have meat- at least, not on purpose.
You can make lemonade from the lemons you've been dealt. With the population down, you have a chance to get a better balance of sexes, and you should see bigger bucks regardless, because they now have more and better food due to less competition for the better food sources. With more bucks, the rut will be more concentrated and the older bucks will be forced to move more to breed. Win-win!
If you did have an EHD outbreak, it will have affected more than just your farm, and a whole region will have fewer deer. From what I've seen of Missouri deer populations, that will be a good thing! You don't want disease to do the culling. A well-placed arrow or bullet is a much nicer way to die.
The area I hunt, between Lamar and Nevada, must have about a 20:1 ratio. It's not unusual to see 20 or more deer in an outing. I expect disease to take hold there at any time. Meanwhile, I'm enjoying good doe venison, and encouraging my hunting partners to shoot those does!
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Antlered and anterless deer practices make as much sense as trying to sex a fish. Can't speak for all states, but here in MI a total lack of one segment of the deer heard is not right. MATURE BUCKS! When only 5 out of 100 bucks born live to be mature, (4 1/2 yrs.) something is wrong with this picture. Don't accuse me of horn porn, cause I don't care if he only scores 85" P&Y. A balanced heard should be the goal. Someone please rationalize for me a total lack of 4 1/2 and older bucks is a good thing, cause I don't get it! Don't you want to see the best that mother nature has to offer, I sure do! Every time this comes up on here you get accused of being a horn porn trophy hunter,yet the Wensels are worshipped on here, are they wrong ? I don't think so. I beleive they have it right. Tom
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The following is a quote from a deer biologist at QDMA
When I asked Brian Murphy, executive director of the Quality Deer Management Association in Watkinsville, Georgia what's QDMA's position was on button bucks, he answered, "Our organization promotes managing for healthy deer herds, which promotes the growth of larger and older bucks. To have a quality deer herd in many sections of the country, you have to remove a certain number of does off the property every year. If you remove does every year, some of your hunters will inadvertently shoot button bucks, believing them to be does.
"We believe any penalty that discourages hunters from taking does in areas where does need to be removed to have a healthy deer herd is not a good idea. As long as the hunters who hunt a specific piece of property keep the button buck harvest to 10 percent or less of their antlerless harvest, they don't need to be concerned about taking button bucks."
Not my thoughts just a quote I thought might help th discussion....
-Charlie
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Onewhohasfun,
The lack of mature bucks is a result of natural mortality and artificial mortality by killing way too many when they are young.
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The button buck is the best eating deer in the woods.They usually are a little bigger than there sisters so will have a little bigger tender hindquaters. :D
Everyone always crys shoot does but not all places are overrun with deer as the places many of you might hunt.If the land is way below the deer numbers it should/can carry shooting bucks/buttons fills the freezer and still allows an increase or at least no change in deer numbers for the next season.Every doe you kill means 3 less deer you will see next year.Just killing does is not the only way to manage your resources just because it works for some places.jmo
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The one thing I know for sure..... we need to support each other's right to hunt as we see fit within our state's regulations(the state doesn't always have great ideas I know). If a giiven hunter is following the state guide lines and hunting legally, then I support them as a hunter. Whether a hunter uses a longbow, recurve, crossbow or gun to shoot a button buck, doe or mature buck we should be there to support them. If, as an individual, you disagree with a hunting practice then work at the state level to change it. We really can't afford to beat each other down over shooting a button buck or two. If your state has a bad policy, work at that level, but don't begrudge a hunter working within the parameters of the system.
If I disagree with your methods, I will keep it to myself so as not to support anti-hunters arguements. Always remember they will use our own words against us when they can!
Happy hunting all,
-Charlie
* Oh yeah, our state also got hit hard with EHD, so mother nature had to figure things out for Ohio. We wound up WAY overpopulated and nature had to figure out what we couldn't.... Get the number of deer down so that the environment can support the population. Even if I love to see lots of deer, it just isn't healthy to have too many around. Don't lynch me, but I will always shoot the 1st deer that provides me with a good shot opportunity, unless it is a nursing doe(just couldn't do it).
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Couple things...
To anyone that's shooting bb's by mistake I have one word...binoculars! The amount of bowhunters that don't use them is astonishing to me!
I think Gatekeeper and the other are right on about BB's just being the fawns of the year....that is about 99% of them.
I did see a BB that was at least a 1 1/2 old this fall. There was no doubt that this deer wasn't a fawn, way too big. I looked at him with bino's, and he ended up right under my stand...but unfortunately I didn't get a shot.....
I'd have shot him in a heartbeat as a 1 1/2yr old +, but wouldn't even have considered it if he was fawn size. Just me....
I'm also not saying that fawns can't develop some kind of antlers...but actual spikes and forks...never seen it myself....rubbed bottons,yes, but rarely...but I've personally never seen an antlered fawn in 31yrs of bowhunting....I'd have to guess that it's extremely rare.....
Shoot whatever you want to shoot....but sometimes the defensiveness in a post(or talking to people) trying to justify it with others makes me think that you are struggling with your decisions and own justification....just an observation....
One last thing....Let's please keep this civil or it will have to disappear....thanx fellas
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Well, I was going to stay outa this one.....
BUT, I have to TOTALY agree with non-typical!!!!! :thumbsup:
Sorry my friends,but some of us have seen with our own eyes the effects of deer herd "mis-management". Here in the Northeast we have a SEVERE coyote problem. I have to side with my good friend Shawn Leonard when I say that all of the management practices instituted by the respective state agencies fail to include the one factor that they absolutely CANNOT control. That would be "non-hunting" related mortality.(i.e. cars,coyotes,starvation,etc.) I have seen the Wild Turkey population DEVASTATED in Schoharie Co. N.Y. where my father lives by coyotes years ago. One fall,there were HUGE flocks,20-30 birds in a field,the following spring,NOTHING!!!!! You would see a bird here,a bird there. As most of you know,when the flocks break up in the spring,birds are everywhere you look. The best Turkey hunters in the county were all in agreement..... They could hardly FIND a Gobbler,let alone call one in. The birds were just not there!!!!! The coyotes have done the same with the deer. Each summer,you see does with 2 and even 3 fawns,in the fields every evening. In the early spring,(march) you only see a single adult deer or 2 in a field. Before anyone even thinks it,let me say that the N.Y.S.D.E.C. has issued practicaly NO antler-less permits for over the last 10 years. Both WMU's 4H and 4G are listed as "low" meaning that less than 1/3 of the applicants will receive a permit,and preferance credits are required. Meaning that you must have been turned down at least once,(many hunters I know have been turned down 2-3 times) before being issued a permit. There are NO 2nd permits issued,NO non-resident permits issued,and NO "crop damage" permits are issued to any landowners(farmers). This is a mountainous agricultural area in the nothern Catskill Mountains of N.Y. not a vast "big woods" area like the central Adirondacks. Due to the high elevations of some of the mountains and the temperature changes between the bottom of the mountain and the top,there are drastic changes in the weather conditions. A "couple inches" of snow down in the valley could be a foot or more at the top. People are always heard to say "I have NEVER seen any proof of starvation in N.Y."(or any other state you'd like to add) BUT I HAVE!!!!! I've seen it with my own 2 eyes!!!!! I'll tell you a story.....
Years ago,about 1998 or '99 we had a terrible ice storm here in the notheast the day before the gun season opened. Normaly,I would drive up to my Mom&Dad's the evening before to hunt opening day. While eating dinner I was whatching the weather channel and there was a wide band of "pink"(ice)extending from just north of my house up to the Mohawk River valley. Schoharie Co. lay right in the middle of that pink band. I called my Dad to check the weather,hoping that it was snowing up there. "No, it's raining" my Dad said, I'll call back in a couple hours I told him. Several more calls over the next few hours confirmed my worst fears..... It was still raining,the temperature was in the 20's,and everything was a sheet of ice. I was going to miss opening day,this would only be the 4th one I had missed in over 20 years. I woke up the next morning and the notheast was in the news!!!!! "The Worst Ice Storm In Years" trees and wires down,thousands without power..... I called my Dad that morning,They had fared pretty well,they lost power for a while and he started the generator,but it was back on. I told him I was going to head up later in the afternoon to hunt wed.(the 3rd day) When I finally got up there,a 2 hour trip took me almost 4 hours. I helped make sure everything was in good shape,then we had dinner and I hit the rack early. The next morning I got up,had a big,hot ham & eggs breakfast,pulled on my wool,and headed out. It was still overcast,but the wind had died down some. I decided to walk the field edges,looking for sign that the deer were up and feeding after the storm. As I got to the upper edge of the 3rd field something caught my eye. It was a brown "lump" on the edge of the field next to the woodlot where I usualy sit. I watched it for a while and it didn't move. Probly sound asleep I thought to myself,I slowly walked,one crunchy step at a time,waiting for it to stand up. About 40 yards away,I thought..... It must REALLY be out!!! About 20 yards away I thought,something's not right..... When I was standing next to that little deer,a button buck,it was all too clear. He was frozen solid. He had been eating in the field,for as long as he could trying to load up before the storm. Then he had lay down and curled up in a ball to wait out the storm,and had become totaly encased in ice. The truely sad thing,is that if he had gone 200 yards down over the bank into the woodlot,he would have been in the thick pines,under cover,and most likely have lived.
The old "Lead Does" are smart,they know how to survive. They sense danger,like man,coyotes,and cars,and they know how to elude them and escape. In the vast north country with severe winter kills,the old does lead their groups to the "deer yards" for the winter. As the other does mature and become "Lead Does" they in turn lead their groups to the yards as they were taught to do when they were younger. Even in populated areas with cars. With the exception of during the rut,you rarely ever see a mature doe hit by a car. It's always the little ones,Momma says "let's go" he who hesitates..... Is lost.
The young fawns are just coyote bait, If they make it through thier first winter,then they have a good chance of growing to be a mature buck or doe. But,survival instincts are a learned process. By shooting the old mature does and leaving the fawns to fend for themselves..... You are only helping to breed "stupidity" into the deer herd.
I'll get off my soap box now.
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I stated earlier in this thread that I don't like to take buttons (anymore) I have taken my share and didn't know it was a button until it was down. I didn't feal bad about it either.
I agree with Buckeye, to each his own as long as it's legal and ethical.
My neighbor's son killed a button buck off of my property this year with a gun, awsome is what I told him. it was his first deer. The first deer I harvested was button buck that I stalked from 300 yds across a corn feild that had just been picked with a wheelie bow. I was more excited about that at the time than anything no one can ever take that away.
Like we say in the beagler world Run what you like your one feedin'em.
And to the fellers who say it takes a real hunter to harvest young deer and the ones that disagree... It takes a real hunter to harvest anything with Trad gear and that's the facts of it.
Kris
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Originally posted by woodchucker:
By shooting the old mature does and leaving the fawns to fend for themselves..... You are only helping to breed "stupidity" into the deer herd.
I'll get off my soap box now.
Would you be "breeding stupidity", or creating a "survival of the fittest" situation???
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Hmmmmmm, Point taken Curt!!!!! ;)
(consider myself duely chastised) :notworthy:
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Jcar,
It disappoints me you would choose arrogance over eloquence in your response
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Back when i was in college i met a guy who was a big hunter like me and his family owned over 20,000acrs in North Alabama.
The first weekend i went hunting with him i saw over 100 deer with only 4 bucks having small racks. They only wanted the older bucks to be shot which meant if you shot it you should want to Mount it, whatever.
They brought in a bioligist to help manage this 6,500 acr tract that was a working cattle farm that they were turning into nothing but a game reserve. They planted over 20,000 trees and bushes through out there land and let all the fence rows grow up.
We were told by these biologist that we needed to take out 150 does a year and if at all possible to always shoot the fawn and leave the big does for breeding purpose. Of course there were always a few young bucks killed but after 10 years of being on this program the weights of the deer jumped dramatically and the 4-5 year old bucks started carrying some impressive head gear.
I know this is a unique situation but i was there during all this hunting with these folks and i got to see the results first hand. When i first started hunting this land it wasnt uncommon to see over 100 deer in a afternoon with none being bucks.
The last time i hunted with them was a couple of years ago and it was during the rut and the first afternoon i saw 8 rack bucks and 11 does and 2 of the bucks were HUGE but way to far for a shot.
We had crop permits those first 2 years and shot most of the deer around april and we would hang the deer in the cooler and the biologist would come in later and pick up the deer. 85 percent of the does were not being bred until the middle of Feb. and sometimes even later than that.
Since starting there management program they have a incredible rut the later part of Dec. and now 85 percent of there does are being bred around this time and the other 15 percent before the end of Jan.
I havent hunted with my friend in a while because all they are interested in is killing trophy bucks so i realize that its different for some people and they have the land and the money to do a lot of special things for there property.
I just took up trad this year and i would be just as proud killing a doe with my recurve as i would killing one of there big bucks with a rifle. I killed a my first this fall a nice 8 and it is by far the highlight of my hunting career.
One thing i did learn from all this is if you live in a area that has a LOT of deer and you want to have some good bucks on your property you should pass on those young bucks and take out the smaller deer so the mature does can breed with the mature bucks.
Im lucky that i hunt a area with a very healthy population of deer and some pretty good bucks. But if i lived in a area with very few deer and not so many bucks and i saw a young buck i wouldnt feel bad at all about killing that deer. Its so different for so many people its impossible to know who is right and who is wrong.
As long as you are hunting in a ethical way and you feel confident in your shooting skills i say do what makes you happy and dont worry what other people think about the size deer you choose to kill.
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Originally posted by buckeye_hunter:
If a giiven hunter is following the state guide lines and hunting legally, then I support them as a hunter. Whether a hunter uses a longbow, recurve, crossbow or gun to shoot a button buck, doe or mature buck we should be there to support them.
If I disagree with your methods, I will keep it to myself so as not to support anti-hunters arguements. Always remember they will use our own words against us when they can!
Amen brother
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When I started this post I was just curious as to the age of a normal button buck and the proper way to manage them in general. I appreciate everyones input, even the guys who elected not to vote. I can see that everyone does agree on the general age and that they are not geneticly deficient and everyone does agree on the proper way to manage them. As far as if anyone wants to shoot them or not that's up to the hunter, that was not what this was ever about. I do appreciate and want to thank you all for your input and encourage everyone to keep it coming, it's interesting to hear eveyone's oppinion.
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I think that in some cases when a button is shot its mistaken for a doe. Not all hunt from tree stands where you may have time to look them over real good. I know I hunt from the ground 85% of the time and will take the first shot I get at a deer, maybe a buck ,maybe a doe or a lil one male or female.
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I try to get a good look at their head, if its "flat" or "square" looking between/behind the ears its usually a young buck, "buttons" or not. If its really "round" its a doe. With a little practice you get to be able to tell pretty Quick.
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Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
Gatekeeper
You said:
[QB] Button bucks are the current year’s fawns. They’re not late fawns and they’re not genetically inferior they’re simply 6 months old.
I agree that they are this years fawns; but I am not so sure about them not being late fawns. Surely if bucks are breeding into March; the fawns will be born later.. ?
Then too; I have not seen fork horn deer; or younger deer hold onto their antlers as long as really big bucks. Antler score aside; if a big deer makes it through the gauntlet of fall and winter- wouldn't his 'genetic genius' be more valuable to a wild herd ?
Where I have hunted; buck fawns can be seen with spikes; and small forks ... I was thinking these were early bred and born bucks....
I am willing to be wrong; but ... am I ?
Brian Krebs,
If it is early to mid October and a fawn still shows signs of their spots then yes, I would call that fawn (buck or doe) a late born fawn. By late October on, fawns are usually brown and determining whether they are late born or not is hard to tell unless they are standing next to another fawn so that their body size can be compared. I was only trying to say that all bucks are button bucks during their first fall. They can’t help it. Its the way they are made. All the deer you see running around with antlers have been growing those antlers since early spring. The button bucks were born in May, June or July and the nutrition that they have been taking in is going to building body structure for survival.
I’m not aware of deer continuing to breed into March, at least not around here. I think the latest breeding will take place in January which produces a July born fawn. A lot of the strung out breeding is due to not enough bucks to handle the job of breeding. Which also affects the fawn mortality rate by predators. If there is a balanced herd, then all or most of the does will be bred at the same time and the fawns will be born at the same time. This mass quantity of fawn births would allow the majority of the fawns to survive while a few will parish from predation. If the herd is unbalanced then there will be a first rut, second rut and sometimes a third rut. This results in fawns being born between May and July and gives predators a continues supply of fawns throughout mid spring and early summer time frame.
Young deer will hold their antlers as long as mature deer there is no difference. Some will drop their antlers in February and some won’t drop until late March but usually its mid February that the antlers are dropped. Yes, a good buck that is allowed to breed is valuable to the herd’s genetics.
Spikes, Forks and some six points are usually 1.5 year old deer. Again, a lot of the nutrition that they consume is being used to build a strong deer. They are still building their muscle structure and strong bones and for this reason their antlers size remains small. That’s why a lot of people do supplemental food plots with high protein. It helps build a healthy deer and helps accelerate antler growth. For a mature buck a lot of that protein goes to antler growth. A hunter won’t see a buck’s true antler potential until the buck’s 4th or 5th year. This is true with or without supplemental feeding because they simply need time to mature.
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To clearly state my position:
1. I am 100% in favor of a hunter taking ANY deer they choose in accordance with local game laws.
2. I am AGAINST any sort of "punishment" for shooting a button buck, or any deer for that matter, by a young hunter or 1st time hunter. Hunting should be FUN for all.
3. I have a difficult time with ANY hunter rationalizing why they took, or didn't take, a certain deer because they were "managing" the deer herd. If someone wants to shoot anything that walks by that is fine with me.....just please don't try to justify it by saying "I was managing" the herd.
4. Regardless if you are hunting on the ground or in a tree as bowhunters we are close enough to easily tell a button buck from a fawn. We aren't splitting the atom here guys. QDMA has a great poster which shows very clearly the distinct difference between a young of the year doe and buck. The main difference between the two is the shape of the head. Button buck head is flatter across the top where his antlers will/may grow.
Being here on the East Coast and having had the opportunity to hunt in other states I am still amazed and some of the things I hear from other hunters. "Deer numbers are down because of....."
*State is in "bed" with insurance companys to kill all the deer
*Insurance company introduced coyotes and they are killing the fawns
*Cicadas are eating all the acorns and the deer have nothing to eat
The list goes on and on. My 60 something year old uncles still believe it is wrong to kill any doe at all. Lots of hunters still believe this. I bring it up to say that there is lots of "myths" and "mis-information" out there in regards to deer management.
Kill what you want but please don't tell me that by choosing to kill / not kill a specific deer that somehow makes you a "manager" or a "real hunter." I consider myself a hunter plain and simple. Not a real hunter and not a manager.
I make choices in regards to the way I hunt (trad gear only) and the type of deer I will attempt to harvest (older does and older bucks only) but in no way would I attempt to foist my views on others. My views and my choices are my own.
And I believe others choices and views are their own too....that is what makes America great.
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Gatekeeper:
I sure respect your thinking.
One thing I keep forgetting about is the different places we live in. Here where I live; we have both whitetails and muledeer.
More; we have whitetail/muledeer crosses.
I saw with whitetail does; lots of spotted fawns right past the end of our bowhunt ( which is Aug30-Sept31). I didn't see that with the muledeer.
I do know that muledeer and whitetails act totally different in their breeding behavior.
Whitetails chase does - and the chase can be a long time- before the doe will 'stand' for the buck.
Muledeer does breed with no flowers and diamonds- they just don't run off like the whitetails.
While our ruts for both deer are in November; the mulies come into heat one month before; but because the does and bucks live apart; the does don't often breed at that time.
Unless a whitetail catches their scent. The muledeer does don't run off - and the whitetail buck is soon laying back and smoking a cigarette.
So - some of what I interject into this conversation has been based on what I see- and that includes hybrids.
Whitetails have a 200 day gestation period; where muledeer have a 190-200 day gestation period.
If a doe does not breed she will come into heat again in 28 days. If a doe comes in heat in November and misses breeding; and then again in December and Breeds - that offspring will be born in the second to the last day of July; so it will be almost half the age of other fawns in our bow season.
If that muledeer doe stands for a whitetail in the 'false heat' the early very short heat that happens in October - then your talking a fawn that is 3 times older than the ones conceived in December; or even January.
And - there was that whitetail doe that I was there to field dress; that had a fawn in it- in the middle of September !
I have seen muledeer with forks that was the size of the fawns with it; but with all that dang math - I am not sure how old they may have been....
Jcar- I so agree with #2 on your list ( not that I disagree with the others)
My oldest son shot a deer when it was minus 30 out and I had to put my hand in the middle of his back and pulled back his elbow with my other hand- so he could draw back his bow. He made a heart shot at 15 yards; and was sooo proud. It was a button buck; and when the land owner saw it - he said " SO- shot yourself a DEER PUPPY did ya?". That hurt my son so bad he has never wanted to deer hunt again.
Thus I could not agree more with you!
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jcar,
Your candid thoughts are appreciated. However, it is a good thing that every deer harvester doesn't think like you do.
There are many documented quality deer herd success stories across the country. I am personally involved with many examples in the south as a wildlife consultant, not a hunter.
Not that it should matter to you but without exception, not one of the success stories can be attributed to hunters who exhibit your ideas or positions.
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Ritchie. . . what equals success ? Big bucks ? Lots of deer ?
Every one of us are from different areas of the country and have different ways to hunt, places to hunt and goals we hunt towards. What takes place in the south MIGHT apply to the upper north, or mountains or west coast, or Canada. . . but not always.
We have things that you might never dream of. . like snow, and cold. . I mean, real cold and lots of snow that comes in late November and early December and stays on the ground till spring.
Fawns are the most likely to not survive the winter. By eliminating some amount of fawns, which will likely die anyway in a strong winter, it can and will allow other, stronger (mature) deer to live.
As above, we all have different desires. What is success to one might be totally different to another.
ChuckC
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Originally posted by Chuck C
Fawns are the most likely to not survive the winter. By eliminated some amount of fawns, which will likely die anyway in a strong winter, it can and will allow other, stronger (mature) deer to live.
Is this why I read that every so often it is good to shoot button bucks and small does?
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I got a button last Dec. 08. I was working at a gas station and a hunter in a truck rode up......
"you like deer meat?" I responded, "yes" He asked "you want some deer meat?"
Well, since my hunting has been down in the last few years, (this year a big fat Zero) I said okay.
He told me that he hunts a club and that he is requ. to shoot 6pts or more. When I looked at the deer, I mentioned that he was missing 6pts.LOL. He said that is why he was giving it away as he did not want the fine.
Don't know if I'd have shot a button before, but I can tell you one thing. It sure was a good tasting deer. Better than all but one buck I shot years ago and the old does that have fallen for me.
Would I shoot a button buck? As long as it does not have spots and it's legal, it's fair game.
Horns look nice on a wall, but then I've slowly taken them down and made tools out of them.
But then we live in an age where Bass Pro and many tv shows popularize the headgear more than the animal. You have special fields with special feed that enhance antler growth.
You grow your deer just like corn, then it's harvest time.
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Chuck,
Correct...I understand what you are saying. I am not referring to the extreme cases like what you have mentioned. Those cases would require a totally different approach.
If you know extreme weather conditions are gonna take a significant number of deer each year then why would you increase the mortality rate with hunting those vulnerable deer? How could you have a huntable population in future years?
The success I am referring to is within deer populations that are high, low health quality and sex ratios way out of balance.
The majority of the 120+ hunting clubs that I managed had too many does and too few bucks for the area. The goal was to maximize the potential health of the herd and have older, quality antlered bucks to harvest.
Basically, the health indicators were fawn production in does and good antler growth and body weights for bucks(for its age class).
Before the program began, one club in particlar shot every buck they saw until the reigns tightened on them. The mentality of these hunters was summed up in one statement made by the club president as we looked at a spike in his truck...and I quote "How do you think it feels to tell your co-worker that you only killed three bucks this year?"
My work was cut out for me.
The club was limited on the number of total bucks they harvested and they had to be G-2 or better.
The next year, after one year of passing the yearling bucks they could not believe how many
bucks they would see with antlers. They had no idea what bucks actually did in the wild. They had never watched them. They began videoing deer and enjoying the hunt much better. They also harvested more and more 3.5+ year old bucks with nice antlers, not to mention plenty of does.
The end result of the program was significant increase in body weights, antler growth, fawn production, age structure and a lot more stinkin family fun.
That is an, in a nutshell, example of successful deer management in the south.
Bucks must live and does must die.
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I gotcha, I hearya. Just saying that there are lots of reasons to shoot a BB, including having no concern at all for seeing a 150" buck.
Heck, I live and hunt in the SW WI CWD zone. They found CWD here several years ago and it changed everything. Right now they have gun seasons going for half, maybe more, of the bow season, tags are free and unlimited, caveat I have to shoot an antlerless deer before a buck. Any antlerless deer.
I hunt public ground and in the first SEVEN hunts I never saw a deer. Normally I see deer every sit and get a shoot opportunity (not necessarily taking a shot) every second sit. And I saw NO DEER for seven hunts. Counting the two times I went out with a gun I hunted the area ten times (it is my "favorite. . go to spot", I scout it all year and have multiple stand sites chosen well in advance) and I saw a (one) doe. period.
I have to shoot an antlerless deer to even have the blessings of the DNR to hunt bucks. Am I gonna shoot a BB if I see one ?
HECK YES !
A great many folks are not real happy with our DNR currently as it seems many many folks are not seeing deer and the blame is being placed on everything except that there are fewer deer around.
ChuckC
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Chuck, that sounds like a government job problem and there are plenty of those to go around.
Here in Alabama, the buck limit the last two years has been three per year with one having four pts. on one side. That is good.
The bad part is since Noah and the flood, the bag limit was any buck being legal. Any antler above the hairline and any antlerless buck. ONE PER DAY for over 100 days of hunting. A liberal doe limit as well.
Timber is the largest industry in Alabama and the only reason that all the bucks weren't killed to extinction was the massive, extensive and traumatic habitat changes that occurred by timber companies clearcutting land...NOT the Alabama Dept. of Wildlife like they want us all to believe.
My point is this....99% people ,in Alabama anyway, have no idea who actually makes the game laws. They think it is some well educated professors at the state colleges or biologists, etc. It's not. It is an adivory board made up of any Tom, Dick and Harriette that the Governor appoints. They give the public a chance to voice opinions and then they make their political decisions on game laws. Extremely political.
I have spoken with them many times. The large majority of actual decision makers have no qualifications to do so and are very imcompetent.
I was on a wildlife committee with other biologists throughout the state to advise the advisory board on the deer hunting laws. Another committee member was one of my professors. He was the deer research guru.
He told me personally that there definitely needs to be a buck restricition in AL but if he says that in our official meeting the government will cut off his research funding.
Sure enough at the meeting he said "we need to just wait awhile and do more education."
That is how laws are made. It is a crock.
That could be going on everywhere, I don't know.
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I've always tried to avoid shooting buttons, but it happens now and again. :knothead:
I guess it probably depends on the buck to doe ratio in a given area. It makes sense to me that an optimum buck to doe ratio is the best tactic.
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button bucks are just very young male deer, some spikes are too, but some are just permanently cowhorns
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It seems to me that most of you who are responding live in very good deer states with plenty of agriculture and all the ingredients for good deer density and "selective" hunting. I shot a button buck this year...first deer I saw in range. It was the second week of our three month hunt. Until now I have only had one small doe since then under my stand. I let her go because the deer numbers are down for some reason and my thinking is that the does need to be able to make more babies this spring. Given the choices between no deer, a button buck or a fawn doe, I would take the button buck. For me, a mature doe is safe simply because I want her to have two or three fawns in the spring. I have never seen such poor deer hunting as I have this year. In three months I think I have seen 15 or so deer total and only two close enough to shoot. I saw two antlered deer from my stand and both were out of range. Shooting button bucks is simply a choice and not a moral one either. Some of the comments I have seen from some of you clearly show a lack of knowledge of deer biology and social development. Button bucks simply will not be available in a given area the following year because mom is going to kick him out. I could go on and on on this subject but you folks who live in states where you can let animals walk because you have confidence that a "better" deer will show up, well, you just don't know how good you have it and I envy you. As for me, a button buck is a "good" deer and meets the state's requirements for an anterless deer and he takes up "good" space in my freezeer. For the rest of this year and maybe even into next season females of any size may get a pass from me. The deer herd where I hunt needs more deer of any kind and I am praying for a milder winter this year.
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Originally posted by Richie Nell:
If you know extreme weather conditions are gonna take a significant number of deer each year then why would you increase the mortality rate with hunting those vulnerable deer? How could you have a huntable population in future years?
Isn't that the point??? You know that the winterkill/coyote problem is going to take out the majority of the fawn population..... Why would you NOT take these deer out of the equation by harvesting them????? You harvest them because they ARE vulnerable,leaving the available food for the stronger deer with the best chance of survival.
Sorry Richie,but it just doesn't make sense. I have hunted over 30 years here in the northeast,and seen winterkills and predation that would make your head spin!!!!! I've read everything that you have said,word for word. I have tried to comprehend it,but it just doesn't add up.
If you have a deer herd with 100 fawns. Hunters kill 50 and the winter/coyotes kill another 30,that leaves 20 fawns come spring.
If the hunters kill 50 adult does,and the winter/coyotes kill 70-80 fawns,you still only have 20-30 fawns come spring,and you have also taken 50 good strong adult does out of the population.....
Please explain to me how you are "helping" the deer herd by shooting the adult does and not the fawns????? :confused:
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Richie, it's hard to argue against flawed logic. Keep up the good work! Everything you've said has made perfect sense to me. I studied wildlife management in college, and have tried to stay informed since then.
The fawns are the most susceptible to winter kill, so by not shooting them you will have more available to survive. If coyotes are the problem, shoot the coyotes!!
If a doe has a button fawn, yes she will drive it out of her home range when she comes into heat. That's nature's way of dispersing the gene pool and preventing inbreeding. Shoot the doe, and the button will stay home! Yesterday I saw a doe with twins on my place. I was hunting for meat with my muzzleloader, so I shot the doe. If one or both of those fawns was a button, he'll still be here next year. If I had shot him or his sister instead, he would be gone next year. What's hard to understand about that?
Deer can repopulate at an incredible rate. To just maintain herd size, you have to shoot or otherwise remove 40% of the herd. That means shooting lots of does. Otherwise it will keep growing until carrying capacity is exceeded, and then size and quality of all of the deer and their habitat go downhill. The habitat takes much longer to recover than the deer herd, so the changes can be essentially permanent.
The Malthusian solution is generally not very pleasant for the animals involved, or the people who witness it- disease, a boom in predator populations, high mortality from vehicle collisions (with associated higher insurance costs), low birth numbers and weight, smaller body sizes, high levels of parasite infestations, more deer ticks to spread Lime disease to humans... the list of potential problems goes on and on. Reducing the population of breeding does and shooting fewer bucks of all ages is the easiest way to keep things under control.
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I won't shoot them and for people hunting my farms if they do shoot one it's considered their "buck" for the year on my farm....They can hunt elsewhere to kill their state buck, but just not on my place. It makes most identify their target prior to shooting.
I understnd that studies show that I'll never see that button as an adult (if left nature), but studies also show that when orphaned as a button (kill his Momma) and he'll stay there his entire life as Momma is not around to displace him. That's why in my area and on my farms I ask all to shoot every doe they get an opportunity to harvest. We are a 1 buck state, but my county is unlimited doe harvest. I've yet to get a group of bowhunters together that could over harvest does and most are lucky to keep the population in check.
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My late uncle ( Dan Robbins) who was steeped in the conservation movement from the fifties to his death; once spoke before the graduating class of Game Biologists at the University of Michigan.
He came home really depressed; as he had asked if there were any hunters among them; and not one hand went up.
Well; the surge in managing herds of deer for antler growth; and mature bucks has encouraged hunters to get into wildlife management. That is the good of it.
But - there is a bad flip side; which we are seeing ... which is the goal of having big antlers; and not a herd of deer that are wild deer.
Wild deer die if they make mistakes. Pen raised; or cultivated deer-- well they can be idiots and survive.
I remember the days in Michigan; when people would apply for 'doe' tags; and get together and burn them on main street ( literally).
I argued then that does needed to be harvested along with bucks.
That though is not in conflict with having wild deer in the woods. Wild deer; surviving by wit - not by the whim of a management hunter.
In the excitement of a bowhunt; ANY deer you can get a shot at is a thrill. If it has buttons or not.
When it comes down to not shooting anything but mature bucks- well that is a personal decision.
But when it becomes the ideology of hunting; I think it is a HUGE mistake.
You notice here at the Tradgang - we are very happy to get a shot at a doe; and make it. We complement each other on it; because we know the effort it takes to master the bow; and to master our hunting skills.
We too honor those the master their skills to the point of taking only mature bucks. Like the Wensels. We have learned so much from them - because they are hunting hard to get bucks that we all have a chance at: if we were just as smart and devoted as them.
I don't believe though; that our goal as tradgangers is to only take mature bucks. We love hunting and taking a deer with trad gear; and that is the ultimate hunting experience.
To let the dumb ones walk by us- to let them grow and become dumber and bigger; and then kill them ....... well I see that as bad management.
And I am so happy to have taken trophy deer; and so happy to have taken Does.. when I hear people referring to taking a doe as a management action; and not as the animal it should be respected for- it just makes me realize that there is a cross in the road of game management.... and folks - we is at that crossroad.
Every year here where I live; I see bowhunters; self included hunting deer; and rifle hunters out there capable of long shots trying to take deer; and then comes this time of year; and these monster up to 49 inch wide muledeer come walking down into the safety of no hunters. These are wild deer; and taking one is a great accomplishment.
When I see tv land hunters pick from a herd of 50 bucks - the one that is most mature: and has retained all its tines - I am less impressed than when I see a guy take a Doe while really hunting.
A button buck is a deer; and if you take one fair chase - good on ya. If you shoot a monster buck and 'kill off the does' to make it possible- well I am not flattered.
I am glad we have more biologists that hunt; I just hope the goal becomes wild wise deer; and not ones you can walk out to and tape and decide whether or not to shoot.
There is a beauty to the tradgang; in seeing a grown man or woman or a child holding up a deer taken with a traditional bow.
Doesn't matter what the head gear is or isn't.
But there is a real ugliness about the balance of using a trad bow to take game - and breeding them to be so stupid that anyone can take one with whatever gear.
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Brian...I'm missing your point I guess.....
"To let the dumb ones walk by us- to let them grow and become dumber and bigger; and then kill them ....... well I see that as bad management."
Are you saying that a any deer that walks by your tree should be harvested because they are "dumb"? And therefore will be dumb their whole life?
Anyone that spends any amount of time in the woods knows there is no dumber animal walking than a button buck, especially during the rut when he doesn't have the security of his Momma. My son and I climbed out of stand during the 1st weekend of the KY modern fireams season this year and he laughed uncontrollably while throwing walnuts at the 2 button bucks that would not run away.
Shold we have waxed both of them as they'll just be dumber when they get older?
It's a simple rule of thumb w/ QDM...1st deer to enter a field will be a button..I find this true more than not.
In my area if a deer (buck or doe) lives to be 3.5 to 4.5 years old...it's a freakin genious!
Actually harvesting a buck that is 4.5 yo is as tough as anywhere in the world and I've yet to see that stupid one that just walks 10 yards past my stand, broadside, from downwind and
stops w/ his front legs stretched forward, waitin on the arrow.
I'll never belittle anyone for taking one..ever.
The rules emplemented on my properties are to try to get the buck/doe ratio in order and help manage the number of deer.....period.
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woodchucker,
I appreciate your respnse.
I don't think I said anything about killing adult does in the quote regarding the extreme situation you are in.
If the winterkill and predation is as bad as you are saying, and I am sure it is, then maybe you do not have a "huntable" population.
"Huntable" as in a population that is viable enough that allows you to expect to have fawn recruitment each year and have and harvest older bucks .
If your hunting goals are to have older does to produce fawns so you can harvest the fawns each year and not want a buck population then you are right on track.
If your interested in growing and harvesting bucks older than 6 months then your chances decrease tremendously if you intentionally make them dead when they are 6 months old.
I am thinking in your situation, assuming you want to harvest older bucks someday, I would suggest not taking the fawns or fawn producers (does). Harvest only the mature bucks that are ripe for the pickin until the herd numbers increase, if ever. Normally mature bucks will take care of the bag limit situation themselves.
Again, how can any deer herd thrive without fawn recruitment each year. Your inventory has to be born in order to grow and get old. If you kill them along with high natural predation then aren't you decreasing your chances of ever having older bucks?
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Lowebow:
In a way that is what I am saying.
"Are you saying that a any deer that walks by your tree should be harvested because they are "dumb"? And therefore will be dumb their whole life? "
Not every arrow flies true; and not every arrow drawn can find the target still there.
Used to be that deer lived in fear of predators; to very much include humans. If you are tossing acorns at deer- are you hunting on public land - with deer that are constantly aware of danger; or on private land - where death is a distant enemy?
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Richie, If you haven't already done so,please go back and read my post on page 3. It explains alittle about the area that I hunt. (one of them anyway,I also hunt the "Big Woods" of the Adirondack Mountains,and used to hunt every year in Maine)
The deer herd up to my Dad's is "huntable" by Northeastern standards,meaning that the herd can be hunted without worry of decimating the population.(sometimes I wonder though) However,although there are a few huge "slammer" bucks taken every year,I really think that managing the herd up there for "QDM" is an exercise in futility. There are enough crops and food to sustain a good healthty deer herd during most of the year,but once the crops are harvested,and the snow dumps,and the coyotes start to pack up,the winter hits them HARD!!!!! Come spring,the deer yards look like bone yards. I am starting to think that most of the issue is a "North vs South" type of thing. Down south,where winters are mild and food is abundant,you have a starvation problem due to overpopulation. Here in the northeast where snow is measure in feet rather than inches,you have a severe winterkill problem and have trouble maintaining a healthy deer population,let alone a "quality" one.
Also, in your quote you said "If you know extreme weather conditions are gonna take a significant number of deer each year then why would you increase the mortality rate with hunting those vulnerable deer?" I took that as you saying that you should not shoot the fawns because they are vulnerable,and you should shoot the adult does. Did I misunderstand you,or was it possibly a typo on your part,or did I miss something??? Please explain what you meant.....
I'm basicly a High School flunky,who joined the Marines. I've been hunting a long time,and I know what I have seen with my own eyes. Yet,I try to be "well read" but when I read about deer management,and it doesn't add up to what I see and have seen with my own eyes,I question things.
Food for thought, Why are all of the big "QDM" managed game ranches down south??? Someone with enough money could easily buy a large chunk of land out in western N.Y. where the yearly "lake effect" snowfall averages to about 10 feet a year,but yet there are none. Everyone headed on the hunt of a lifetime Big Buck "Quest" always seems to head south or south mid-west??? Is it possibly because Mother Nature is not friendly to QDM???
Thanks Again for your input Richie!!!!! :notworthy:
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woodchucker, (not sure how to do the quote thing yet) but.. you said...
"Also, in your quote you said "If you know extreme weather conditions are gonna take a significant number of deer each year then why would you increase the mortality rate with hunting those vulnerable deer?" I took that as you saying that you should not shoot the fawns because they are vulnerable,and you should shoot the adult does. Did I misunderstand you,or was it possibly a typo on your part,or did I miss something??? Please explain what you meant....."
To have a population of deer, they have to be born. Then they have to live and grow each year. If not, then there will be huge age gaps or no deer at all.
Assuming you desire to have older deer on your land... if you already know there is going to be a large winterkill on the fawns then why would you intentionally increase the intensity of storm? Instead of... not harvest any fawns, hope the winter is mild and increase the chances of more fawns becoming a year old, then two years old, then three.
If the natural mortality is 70% each year then I would rather have 30% survival out of 100 nonhunted fawns then 30% survival out of 50 fawns after 50 were harvested. I would choose this because I would want as much fawn recruitment as possible. Fawns living past 6 months is the X factor when it comes to having a viable ongoing population.
Another thought about harvesting fawns. Hunters are not selective like nature is. Hunters are probably going to take the larger, stronger fawns leaving the later born, smaller fawns to die in the snow. Then you have less total fawns come April than not killing any at all.
Again, I am only assuming there is a hope and desire to have a future deer herd.
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funny, I've never harvested a deer in my life...killed a bunch of them hunting though.
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That's funny Larry :biglaugh: . Seems I've hit a nerve with my question.
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Did you not find them?
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sure I found them.
worked on a farm in my younger days, helped that farmer harvest a bunch of crops to.
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Brian...
Yes..I hunt private ground. Mostly on my 200a that is surrounded by heavily hunted and heavily preasured farms. I do my best to have a low impact aproach to my hunting, but know during the gun season the surroundind properties shoot everything in sight. We've taken 4 mature does, 1 doe fawn, and my 147" 9-point off my 200ac. We plan to take another 5 does before season end. These deer are high pressured no matter what I think, but I've hunted plenty of public ground and still found the fawn/button buck to be just as "dumb".
A 6 month old fawn has never experience the predator "man" and doesn't know how to react to them...how could they? It's a learned response not genetic. Mom is the one that is in charge of teaching this. Just like us and our children.
Them old matriarch does that seem to be able to find you or look up in the tree and pick you off weren't born w/ a "look up in a tree" reflex...they learned it over a few years time and probably a close call or two.
During the rut when Momma runs off her fawns it puts these little guys out marching endlessly thru the woods like their older brothers. Many have never seen a hunter and have no fear...unless my son throws walnuts at them. LOL. That's only one of the reasons their easy pickins. Another is their natural curiosity...no different than a fox pup or a coon kit that comes in to check out a sound they've never heard before...doesn't make them "dumb", just kids. No different than any other species that hasn't learned danger.
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Oh..I'm sorry Larry....
I forgot who I was talking to.
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The herd has decent numbers around me but they still recieve a fair amount of pressure. While I did kill a couple BB early on, I make a concentrated effort not to do so now. Really not that hard since they are the dumbest thing in the woods and killing something that easy brings me no satisfaction.
In pre rut, they have had no exposure to predators(hunters) and carry themselves in a reckless way - typically 1st in the field, etc.
During rut, they are usually on their own and don't have a clue other then avoid anything with horns.
I enjoy hunting and killing, but want some challange. And around me, bb's don't give it.
Steve
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Richie, I would think that if you had a high fawn mortality rate due to winterkill/predators,having more adult does to lead them during the winter,and also to have more fawns in the spring,would make more sense than killing a bread adult doe(loosing the doe and the 2 fawns she is carrying) and leaving the fawns to fend for themselves.(when they have less than a 50/50 chance of survival)
Also,you have yet to include your thoughts on the north/south, mild/hard winter question???
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Actually, when push comes to shove, the bucks that should be harvested, if of course you truly want the herd to prosper, are the bucks that are way past their prime. What the QDM movement does is try to harvest the biggest and best bucks the herd has to offer, along with their genes.
If you really really wanted to help the herd, let them walk until they start to lose their prime, until they are too old to compete in the rut game, then there will be others to take their place, the new biggest and best.
Right now I don't see QDM as currently espoused, as helping the herd, only the hunter to get his picture in the paper.
My opinion
ChuckC
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Woodchucker,
Yes I agree with you about not shooting the does, bred or not. If I am not mistaken I haven't been in favor of killing any does in the prrevious posts for your extreme weather situation.
Regarding QDMA and weather, I think there are several factors involved as to why QDMA may not be as common in the north.
Weather, shorter hunting seasons, more restrictions on hunting, and lower populations in some areas. I personally think that the main reason is that there already tends to be bigger bucks in the north.
In the past the south typically had smaller deer and more of them and are still smaller on average than the north.
Quality Deer Management is just that...managing for quality deer rather than trophy deer. In the south, "quality" is a much more achievable goal than "trophy" as compared to the north. So the QDMA began.
QDMA also has to do with hunters having a quality hunt whether you harvest, shoot, kill, destroy, make dead, etc. a deer or not. It is about growing and enjoying a healthy deer herd.
That is important in the high populations of the South.
The south has a lot more inventory to work with and longer seasons to implement the program, longer growing seasons to grow food for deer, etc.
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Chuck,
You are right.
I totally agree with you about harvesting the most mature deer you got.
I have always had the philosophy of taking from the top and allowing other bucks a chance to reach the top.
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Aw, that's ok Richie, long thread like this that can happen sometimes :D
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kill, kill, kill :banghead:
Maybe its the southern accent...that I don't have.
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:thumbsup: :campfire:
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Maybe if I get to harvest, :banghead: kill, kill him first.
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Thanks Richie!!!!! That was kinda along my way of thinking.....
Here in N.Y. we have a vast asortment of habitat. Up in Schoharie Co. where my Dad lives,the herd is way under capacity because of the winterkill. Just below me and just above N.Y.C. in Westchester Co. the county is over run with deer.(and they issue the doe permits to prove it,2 per person and you can get more if you want because they are always undersubscribed) As I said before,up to my Dad's you usualy wait 2-3 years to get a doe permit. I don't claim to be the sharpest head in the quiver,that's why I ask questions. Sometimes though, I guess it seems like I'm stirring the pot.....
Thanks Again Richie!!!!! :notworthy:
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I would most definitley shoot a button buck if the opprotunity presented itself. I am not a horn hunter and never will be. I do not shoot whatever comes in front of me all the time I make the decision on a hunt by hunt basis.
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To many post to read through all of them, but it seems to me the term's button buck and spike are being confused. A button buck to me is a fawn and, I absolutely will not shoot (very little meat). A spike is usually a yearling (but of course not always). I'm not a trophy hunter, I hunt hard and given the chance late in the season will not hesitate to shoot a yearling. Either way I think the term scrub when referring to a deers antlers is a bit offensive, or at least poorly worded. imo
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Can we look at the big picture here. A well balanced herd should be the goal. A proper sex ratio, and proper age structure within the herd. I know QDM is not for everyone. Having more mature bucks around is not artificially inflating the population. ITS THE WAY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE! They are the oldest, wisest most cautious, biggest, strongest, hardest for a predator to kill, and therefore their percentage of the herd should reflect that. Ok call me selfish but the QUALITY of the hunt is what I want. To me it's a lot more exciting to have bucks chasing and trailing, rubs and scrapes everywhere, and be able to rattle, grunt or snort wheeze with some sort of effectiveness. Not the case here, the ratio is too out of whack.To me that is artificial. Fawns born in late August should be a clue, happens here. Sure sitting and waiting for a silent doe is fine. I prefer to get trampled by a bunch of horny rut crazed bucks!
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IMO...Two manmade reasons why the south has deer overpopulation issues...
Man killed off the big natural deer predators and clearcutting by the timber industry.
That is not natural.
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All of my previous comments have been in reference to the southern half of the US, where we don't get winter kill and overpopulation is the biggest problem that managers have to deal with, in most cases. In the two Nawthun states I've hunted, Iowa and North Dakota, I've seen more and bigger bucks on "unmanaged" public land than on any managed property I've hunted in the South. If you already have quality deer, you obviously don't need QDM. Severe northern winters take care of the excess population and favor the biggest and strongest animals, i.e. big bucks. That, plus short gun seasons, keeps the deer herd closer to the natural balance that existed before humans wiped out the other competing predators. Down South we have to shoot, shoot, shoot those does and allow the young bucks to walk to approach the same type of balance.
Mississippi just changed the legal buck restrictions so that practically all of the yearlings, the 1 1/2 year old bucks, will be protected. A buck in most of the state has to have a minimum 10" inside spread or a main beam length of 13" to be legal. In the fertile delta region, it's 12" inside or 15" beam. With our late rut, nearly all yearling bucks are smaller than this. It has apparently been done to increase the average age of bucks, and encourage the shooting of more does instead of small bucks for meat. Buttons will still be legal as antlerless deer.
Off the subject (again), but the overpopulation problems in some areas of the state have created another issue that will be catastrophic for bowhunters if the current well-founded rumors are true. It now appears that next year we may have no separate seasons for bows or primitive weapons. There is a strong push to open deer season on Oct. 1 and keep it open until Jan. 31, with all legal weapons allowed all of the time. That's what can happen when doe populations are allowed to get out of hand!! For us bowhunters, it means that we won't have the opportunity to hunt unpressured bucks (or does) before the gun hunters turn them nocturnal. I would hate to be in the sporting goods business in this state now, because if this happens they will have great difficulty selling off their inventories of primitive weapons to the majority of hunters who just want to shoot a deer by whatever means is legal at the time, and are not dedicated to bowhunting like most of us are.
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I always assumed that 99% of the guys on TG were seasoned hunters of some sort or other. Most having started w/ other weapons or "Cross Dressers" that use trad, compound, guns, etc, but still seasoned.
I'm sorry if this offends a few, but I'm overwhelmed w/ dismay over this poll to begin with....
5% of the people answering this poll believe that a button buck is a genetically deficient deer? WTH? Really?
I'm blown away that in todays age w/ all the information at our fingertips that anyone would really think this. A quick search on Google will fill us w/ a weeks reading on what a button buck really is.
and "Really Late Fawn" ?
Not late or even really late....a button buck is a fawn...period. It is called a "button" because is has pedicles, which all bucks have at one stage or another his 1st year of life. Non polished antler.
Excuse my rant....
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Wow, there are many ideas on QDM here I find unbelievable. Now I'm going to really mess up some minds...around 60% of the genetics comes from the doe.
I have a good friend who is a member here and also happens to be a wildlife biologist in our state. About time for him to speak. Come on Joe set some minds straight here.
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KY TJ, of course half of the genes come from the doe, but how can it be around 60%? Why not 50%? Just curious about where the number came from. It's been over 40 years since I took a genetics course, so my memory could be flawed, I guess. It certainly is about some other things... can't remember just what at the moment... :)
In captive breeding programs, does that hatch bucks that get bigger than average are favored, but I don't know how you could tell which ones have the better genes in the wild, although I did have a club member tell me years ago not to shoot a doe in a certain place because she had twin buck fawns every year.
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KentuckyTJ,
Not sure about the exact % but you are right.
You may want to read other posts on the issues with spikes.
I have mentioned more than once how difficult to impossible it is to manage the genetics of a deer herd. Simply because of the maternal influence that can't be managed for or against.
QDMA is not at all about managing for genetics. It is about producing more older bucks and more nutrition for the deer herd. Then the better antlers show up.
A bucks genetic makeup is madeup when he is conceived. The only possible way for genetics to be expressed in the antler growth or body weight potential is with age and good nutrition.
Just like a child that is born underweight but grows up to be a larger than average adult. You never know the genetic make up until you eat and age.
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If it was possible to make significant strides while genetically managing for a particular antler size and shape....
Why in the world would a sane human being do that?
Why would you destroy the genetic diversity and try and make every buck look alike?
That sounds like another socialistic Obama ploy to me. :knothead:
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Originally posted by Don Stokes:
KY TJ, of course half of the genes come from the doe, but how can it be around 60%? Why not 50%? Just curious about where the number came from. It's been over 40 years since I took a genetics course, so my memory could be flawed, I guess. It certainly is about some other things... can't remember just what at the moment...
Don - the article I read years ago stated on average of 60% in their study.
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I think maybe there should be a little give for those who don't get to shoot deer all that often or young folks on this killing button bucks debate. A stigma placed on that could put a negative feeling in a youngster, when that first chance comes along. When ever someone shoots a fawn or a button buck, I tell them "You can't eat the antlers, but, remember that every mouthful of this deer will be your trophy." The worship of huge racks is tribal and easily understood, but the Good Lord gave us these creatures as sustenance. I know that is correct, why else should they taste so good.
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Late born fawns, nothing genetically deficient about them. I let em walk every time unless I see one injured and that goes for all deer, if its injured I put them down. Ive been letting everything less than a really mature 8 walk now for quite some time so its a no brainer to let the buttons walk.
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Pavan,
I personally would rather teach my kids that it is better to harvest the older bucks and leave the younger ones to get old, even if it is their first buck.
Rather than let them shoot, IMO the baby buck then tell them why it is not good to kill the young bucks.
Why not teach the younguns the first time.
Kill does for meat.
If the doe population is too low to feel good about taking some for "meat" then the buck population is definitely too low to hunt.
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I think some of us need to try to be a little more polite or I will ask the mods to remove this. I never thought I would be degraded for asking a question here of all places. If you don't like the post or the question then please just don't reply. However, if we can post a polite response, even if we don't agree, all oppinions are welcome.
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I have shot two in my time with a bow and both times thought they were small does when I took the shot. I couldn't see the buttons until I was on the ground. Didn't bother me one bit. They taste great! The first one was the first deer I ever shot. It was the late '60's and I was 15 years old and there weren't a lot of deer around of any sort. When I went to check it in at the game check station I was getting a few wise cracks from some of the old timers. The game warden looked at them and said, "Where's your deer?" That shut them up. Then he said, "hey when they are that small they are harder to hit; this kid's a great shot." That made me feel better.
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Buckeye....I have not read this thread yet...and apologize for anyone derailing your question.
I will lock it for you now.
My oldest girl has a band concert in a few, so I'll try and read this later.