Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: unregistered on December 13, 2009, 06:09:00 PM
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Well to make a long story short I found a sweet spot for Moose while out for Grouse this November and I am thinking about trying my luck for swamp donkey. But I don't want to try and shoot said swamp donkey with 490 grain cedar arrows from a 50# recurve.
So here is the plan. I went to the local archery joint and liked the look of the Easton Axis FMJ. Thin shaft for less drag but heavier than every other carbon cept for the Grizz Stick which is too pricy for my budget. So I figure I slap a 100 grain brass insert with a 220 grain Muzzy Phantom on the front and stick a 3gpi wieght tube up the back so that I can try and get a 700ish grain, thin, high FOC arrow.
So to all you carbon shooters, what are your guesses for spine and length in order to achieve good arrow flight from a center shot recurve with a 28inch draw? Also since the shaft is small is staight fletch the only option?
And has anybody out there done this sorta thing before? If so pipe up and tell us how you did it and how it went.
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ttt
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Justin Moose arn't that hard to kill keep the shots close and use a cut on contact broadhead that is scary sharp!! I like at least 10gr lb if you go to 12 gr " your shots will have to be real close why not try a few more lbs draw weight ,, if you were ever haveing to shoot more than 15 to 20 yrd at a Moose you will be glad you uped your poundage, or you may have to pass on shots out of your effective range with a 50 lb bow,, offset fletch with those shafts will work well I like to stay with 5" feathers for broadheads,, makes them fly well even if the get a bit wet or ruffled
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If you haven't bought the FMJ's I suggest getting a carbon that is very light and stiff. Begin with light weight stiff shaft so you can add plenty of weight up front to get the total weight up and FOC way up. I would do everything possible to get the FOC in the 30% range.
I suggest the GT Vapor 3555. You can get total weight 650+ gr. and 30+% Ultra FOC. I did it today and it flys perfect and hits hard.
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You are thinking correctly! Just leave out the weight tubes...
FMJs are excellent arrows, slimmer than the Gold Tips and very durable. With a brass insert and 250g head, I'd guess you are going to need a 400
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Justin, I would try 500 spine first. I worked my way down from 300, thru 340, and 400 spine FMJs to find out that the 500 works perfect for me. Mine are 31 inches long with a 125 grain brass adapter and 175 grain broadheads and spines perfectly at full length. I shoot a 55lb at my 30 inch draw length R/D longbow.
For your bow, I suspect a 100 grain insert with 250 or 300 up front in the broadhead will make them work perfectly. The FMJ's are tough as nails and will do the trick. I would reccomend leaving them full lenght and cutting them from the back as you tune them. Refletching is easy enough. You can easily get 3-4 inch feathers on the shaft with a heavy helic. Don't bother with the weight tubes, put the weight in the broadhead or adapter. For Moose, I would use steel inserts or broadhead adapters and a cut on contact broadhead.
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Justin I would concentrate on accuracy more than weighing up the shaft . I feel that a 10-12 grain arrow with a PERFECTY tuned arrow will do the job if placed EXACTLY RIGHT.
I agree with basically what Ragnarok Forge
has said about.
Spend the money on a KME sharpener, we don't know what sharp is until we use one of these sharpeners.
Jack
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Jack,
I like to think everyone practices to be as accurate as possible with a well tuned arrow and a scary sharp broadhead whether they have bumped up the arrow weight and FOC or not. That is not an "either or" situatuion.
He is hunting moose. I may be wrong but I would personally make sure I had some really good weight on that arrow going after a moose. Especially when not using a heavy bow.
NOT weight instead of well tuned accuracy...weight WITH well tuned accuracy.
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They have done testing on small diameter shafts and determined that it doesn't affect the penetration at all. I guess the shaft lubricated with blood doesn 't drag too much. If you are looking to buy new shafts, save yourself some money and buy some that you can't bend. Like anything that doesn't have aluminium in it. Put a scary sharp 2 blade head on it and warm up the grill.
Bigjim
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Craaig Warren of Maine, who mfgrs. the Bow Bolt, shot a huge record class bull this past year. He had had shoulder surgery before he knew he would be drawn for a moose permit so he was shooting a bow maybe 2# heavier than yours. He killed the moose with Bear Razorhead that was about 50years old mounted on a cedar shaft. The arrow went thru the chest and stuck in the off side shoulder. With all your talk about a heavy arrow I think you will be better advised to make sure that whatever arrow you decided to use, regardless of weight, please be sure that it is tuned perfectly to your bow. I would rather be shooting a lighter arrow that is shooting straight as it hits the target than one that is heavier but not properly tuned. The Muzzy Phantom should do an excellent job. I have another close friend who shot a large bull moose in Maine this year using a 60# bow and an arrow in excess of 700 grians. His penetration was no better than my other friend Craig's who was shooting a bow 8# lighter and an arrow at least 100 grains lighter. Heavy FOC and perfect tuning are the key....let the arrow weight take care of itself.
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Thanx for all the relpies everyone, good info from all.
First off I am already set on using the FMJ as far as specific shaft goes since I usually prefer aluminum when I am not shooting wood and I have never seen an aluminum shaft as small as the FMJ. I wanted to go thin mostly from reading that mister Ashby found significant penetration enhancement from a shaft of smaller diameter than the broadhead ferrule. So I figured the Phantom and FMJ would work well in that respect. As far as increasing bow wieght, that is simptly not an option. I cut the tendons in the fingers of my right hand when I was a kid and it has taken me three years to work up to 50#. I don't think I will ever get any higher.
And considering the limitations of my 50# bow against an animal of such size, I had been thinking of restricting my shots to under 20 yards. I should have about 6-7 months before the up coming Moose season to practice, which should be more than sufficient time to become familiar and accurate with these new arrows.
I may leave out the weight tubes as you said Steve O since most of the searches on this site did not speak to highly of them.
I will keep you all posted on how the arrow project is coming and I hope to begin the tuning process just before X-Mas. I might even be able to add a pic or two. And one more question. What does ttt mean?
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ttt= To the top. As in someone bringing this topic back to the top of the index list where others can see it and comment.
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Bill, you said...
"With all your talk about a heavy arrow I think you will be better advised to make sure that whatever arrow you decided to use, regardless of weight, please be sure that it is tuned perfectly to your bow. I would rather be shooting a lighter arrow that is shooting straight as it hits the target than one that is heavier but not properly tuned."
What about a well tuned HEAVY arrow and HIGH FOC that is shooting straight as it hits the target?
Why wouldn't you rather have that?
Again, why is it and "either/or" situation? Why do you imply you can't have both?
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I think you would be okay using a setup very similar or the same as mine, including using two blade heads. (Check my signature for the details) But, I must admit, I've never hunted anything bigger than whitetails. Still, I believe I wouldn't hesitate to use my setup for elk or moose. I get perfect arrow flight too, btw.
My Bemans are very small diameter. I fletch them helical with no prob.
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I remember reading an article by Glen Hegelian from the early 60s about a moose hunting group. They got their moose with less than 50 pound bows and standard arrows. A modern fast recurve with a light string probably has more power than that 55 pound minimum I read about 40 years ago. Going a bit heavier on that shaft weight could very well have a positive effect, but I would not get carried away with it to a point where your range is severely limited. I saw a large old milk cow get put out of its misery once with a 50 pound Hill that was only drawn to 26" with a cedar shaft. The arrow flew straight through and the cow was dead in seconds. More weight and power can be a good thing, but arrow flight, sharp broadhead and accuracy still come first.
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oh boy
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It's simply amazing that we managed to kill anything in the good ol' days, without carbon arrows and extreme FOC. Just lucky, I guess. Those lightweight Bear heads (not even 150 grains!) and cedar arrows must not have been as good as we thought they were. Good thing Fred isn't around any more to suffer the embarrassment.
Sorry guys, I just can't help myself sometimes. I'll go before I offend someone. :knothead:
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Justin,
I'm the guy Bill mentioned earlier in this thread. As he mentioned, I had some of the same limitations you are talking about regarding bow weight, and finally got up to 53# about two weeks before the hunt. My prefered weight before the rotator cuff surgery was always between 55# and 60#. I was pleased when I found I could shoot 53# accurately in time for the hunt. I chose cedar and a 51 year old Bear Razorhead for sentimental reasons but also because a lot of real icons of this game (like Fred Bear himself) had used similar weight bows with similar arrow configurations in pursuit of similar game very successfully. My cedar arrow with the Razorhead weighed 545 gr. total which is just over the "magic" 10 gr. per pound of bow weight. The bow I used is a 2 piece hybrid longbow, 53# @ 28" and performs with most of the modern day recurve designs even though it is technically a longbow.
If I thought my old brain could have been programed for the trajectory of a heavier arrow goin slower than what I was used to in the two weeks left before the hunt, I proably would have tried to add some weight but the arrows I was using were tuned perfectly to the bow and I didn't want to change anything at that late date.
I was hoping for a shot inside 20 yards where trajectory wouldn't matter much anyway but an animal the size of a mature bull has a large kill zone which allows for slightly longer but still ethical shots. But maybe not ethical if an overly heavy arrow dropped below the kill zone at 25 or 30 yards because I wasn't used to it.
The long and short of it all is that the shot was exactly 20 yards and the 545gr arrow got both lungs and the top of the heart but did not pass through. The 1040 pound bull went 112 yards after the shot. The moral of the story...shoot a well tuned arrow of 500 gr or more and shoot it accurately and you will be fine.
I personally don't think the shaft diameter has much affect on penitration because, after all, the broadhead cuts a hole far larger than the shaft diameter no mater what size the shaft.
Good luck on your hunt.
Craig
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Well said, Don Stokes! My sentiments exactly :thumbsup:
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this season, shooting a schafer at 53lbs at 27 with 55/75 with a 300 grain tip shot a moose. the arrow penetrated and stopped on a rib on the far side. took out the aorta and lungs, went 6 yards. i think the 35/55 will be a better fit for my bow. the other goldtips are pretty stiff. the moral is i would n't hesitate to shoot a moose with a 5o lbs bow. more than sufficient. tune her up and go. good luck
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Well I am certainly getting good advise from both sides of the fence here.
I can understand Mr Stokes frustration but if you please remember sir that I am new to archery and as such have no experience of the "good ol' days". All I know is what is shown to me and at this point the only evidence that is constantly being put forth are Mr Ashby's findings which I have read here and in TBM. I am not looking at carbon arrows because I want to go high tech, I am doing so because I want to kill a Moose and be ethical doing it.
If you have had good experiences with wood arrows on very large game please tell them. I shoot cedar arrows predominantly and any advice advocating them will be taken seriously since I have no desire to spend my hard earned money if I don't have to.
And thank you Mr Warren for your first hand account. But I have one question for you. Any pics of you Moose? It sure would be cool to see a picture of it after hearing so much about in this topic.
And since this keeps coming up I just want to assure everyone that a sharp head will be used and the arrows shall be tuned properly, and I shall practice and become as accurate with them as I am with me cedars. I owe that much to the swamp donkey.
Thanx again everyone for your advice, keep it coming.
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Here are the stats on my 46# Kanati and the arrow setup I used this fall.
FOC ARROW length 30
shaft+feathers+nock wt 245 Beman ICS Bowhunter 500
separate insert weight? 30 Beman standard insert
adapter weight? 100 steel insert
point weight 135 Zwickey Delta
total arrow weight 510
balance length 22.38
FOC % 24.60
GPP
draw wt 46
arrow wt 510
GPP 11.09
I have never shot a moose, but this combo put an arrow through a whitetail buck at 22 yards so fast I could hardly believe it. While it was not a moose, I think an arrow of similar FOC and GPP equipped with a scary sharp two blade broadhead, should do the trick from your 50 pound bow.
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Justin, you mentioned the articles in TBM by Dr. Ashby. I did read them all.....I have also noted that the staff of TBM, T. J., G. Fred Asbell, Don Thomas, all seem to be carrying wood arrows in their quivers after all the Ashby data. They must think they work just fine, as I do. Hope you have a great experience in your quest for a moose. I want very much to try that myself. You'll find that there are as many opinions here as there are participants. That's all part of the fun.....seeing what works best for you. Enjoy :D
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Two years ago I shot this bull moose in Northwest Ontario. My arrow weighed 499 grains on my digital scale. It was an unweighted Beman ICS Camo Hunter 340 with a 20-grain Flightmate (glue-in/glue-on) adapter and a 125-grain Ace Standard 2-blade head. My FOC was 13% (traditionally considered normal). Through my homemade recurve, those arrows shoot 194 fps through my chronograph. The arrow took out both lungs, split a rib vertically on the off side, and exited the animal, flying off into the cutover.
It took us longer to find the arrow than the moose.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/wesbrock/Ontario%202006/CRW_2910.jpg)
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Well you can't argue with that. 499 grains eh? Maybe I won't feel so bad about shooting that swamp donkey with my cedars after all.
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Justin,
Do a search for "Saga of the moose bow." It is a post started on about June 19. I was asking similar questions that you have and the great folks here on trad gang had some great advice for me. The pictures of the moose are about in the middle of the thread starting around October 5 or 6.
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Jason was one of those good guys that had some advice for me. Thanks Jason. Great picture of your fantastic bull too.
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Justin don'let those fellows that think carbon is no good ,, they forgot to tell you the very best wood arrows are hard to find,, you also have to learn how to build wood arrows and keep them straight ,, I have shot wood but if you slip and fall on your wood arrows your hunt is over, why bother ,when carbon will give you high FOC and you never have to straighten them and they all will fly the same,, and they will outlast any wood arrow , oh yea if you need more no problem the next lot will spline the same as last so once your arrows are tuned to your bow your done!! with wood every dozen is a new adventure
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Jason, that is a great harvest you have there. That moose looks small in the picture. Is it the picture or is it a certain type of moose that is smaller than others? I know nothing about moose but the picture looks like the size of an elk.
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Thanks for the info Mr Warren. That was one beautiful Moose. And thanx to everyone who posted here with info and advice, it was much appreciated. I am going to go ahead and get a set of FMJs. However thanks to all the woodie fans out there I'll aim for an arrow weight of 600 grains instead of in the 700s. I'll post some pics in another post in the near future if anyone interested in seeing how they came out.
Thanx again everyone.
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With a 550 to 600 grain arrow and 20-25% FOC, you should have no problem. The FMJs should be tough as nails, more than adequate in that regard. Keep us posted on how you do with them.
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Justin, I didn't mean to put down your choice of arrows. I just wanted to make the point that you can get the performance you need without going to extremes. The most important thing to remember is that you must have properly matched and tuned equipment and know how to shoot it, whatever your choice of shafts and broadheads.
Good hunting, and be sure to show us the pictures when you put him down!
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Justin, you should check out peteward.com, if you click on traditional reviews and find rodney wright archery, there is a great story on how Shannon Kuzik took a very nice bull moose with a 40# recurve. His arrow weight was 500 grains. At that weight I believe his arrow was flying at 145 fps. He got good penatraion and the two blad magnus he was using bent when it struck the offside shoulder. I shoot a 50# Montana and a 630 grain arrow for elk with no worries. My arrow setup flies perfect and hits hard.
29 1/2" 2016 easton shaft
5 grain per inch 3 rivers weight tube
125 grain 2 blade stinger broadhead
3 wraps of scotch tape to secure the weight tube
A 600+ grain arrow tuned well and a scary sharp two blade head will work for moose with your bow
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Originally posted by Richie Nell:
Jason, that is a great harvest you have there. That moose looks small in the picture. Is it the picture or is it a certain type of moose that is smaller than others? I know nothing about moose but the picture looks like the size of an elk.
The moose went down in a ditch, which made rolling him over a real delight. The camera angle didn't do him any favors either. Here's another picture that shows the body size a little better. He was a half-ton in weight, give to take a few pounds.
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y138/wesbrock/Moose2.jpg)
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Originally posted by Craig Warren:
Jason was one of those good guys that had some advice for me. Thanks Jason. Great picture of your fantastic bull too.
Craig,
I'm not sure how I missed your moose story the first time around, but I just checked it out. Wow, what a rack on that thing! Congrats. That would be a huge set of headgear for an Alaska/Yukon bull. But on a Canada moose? That's world class.
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For Richie Nell: In regards to arrow weight....I have nothing against heavy arrows or light ones for that matter. A straight shooting arrow trumps weight, IMO.....that is all I was trying to say. I didn't want the poster to think that extra weight, in and of itself, would assure better penetration. Where the weight is, however, can make a big difference. I killed a 600# cow two years ago with a 60# bow and a 600 grain arrow. The head I used was a Razorcap, 225 grains up front. It took the large knuckle over the heart and took a large chunk out of it, did the same on a rib, centered the heart, sliced open the bottom of the lungs, hit the offside leg and came back out. The moose took 3 steps and died. I could have used a heavier arrow but at 35 yards that arrow would shoot straight in the target without feathers. The weight of the arrow was not a goal I was shooting for but straight flight was. I think a lot of guys think weight solves a lot of problems....and it can but only if the arrow is flying perfectly.
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"I think a lot of guys think weight solves a lot of problems....and it can but only if the arrow is flying perfectly."
Correctamundo....I totally agree but I thought surely bow holders don't hunt with there arrows not flying straight. I thought that was a given...like a very sharp broadhead.
IMO, this heavy arrow, high FOC issue is simply about addressing the negative result of a "not so perfect" shot. IF a hunter comes to grip with the fact that it IS gonna to happen and WANTS to increase the chances of recovery then there are two great ways to do that.
But both setups (light/heavy) can be shot with the same accuracy and well tuned arrows...and I think a lot of guys don't think that either.
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Please, no disrespect to anyone who has has posted here. But according to Dr. Ed as long as your shaft diameter is smaller than your ferrule no significant loss of penetration will occur from excessive drag. That is way different than saying shaft diameter has no bearing on penetration,when that diam. exceeds ferrule size.I beleive in testing parameters that was number 3 or 4 in importance. If you say testing has been done to prove otherwise, I would like to read it. Also the effect of EFOC (all other things being equal) cannot be denied. For those who have not read Ashby, having your BH arrow combination hold up without damage is number 2 after a perfectly tuned arrow. Yes many a moose has gone down to a 10% FOC cedar shaft, but I think I will go with the good doc and his 20 yrs. and hundreds of animals and test results
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Justin,
Don Stokes has the right idea as has many others here that posted. The many big animals that were taken with cedars on regular average heads, sharpened do the job, were very effective. The fella's just tuned their stuff and shot at effective distances. Get accurate, get razor sharp and go hunting with confidence your equipment is fine.
Jason!!! what an awesome harvest. I'd be so "jacked up" I think I could carry that monster out on my back running!!!! :bigsmyl:
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50lb bow, balanced sharp arrow is all you need. Sure wouldn't want one in me,from that set up. I think the compound mentally finds its way in to trad. archery a little bit w/ all this obessive concern w/ penetration,--created by marketers of super sonic bows and kyrponite broadheads or whatever. Personally, having stuck dozens of deer - my assessment is that pass thrus are overrated-- more blood to be sure-- but my experience tells me that an arrow embedded in a running deer w/ a portion of the shaft still projecting is more leathal. The projecting shaft is slamming against trees and just grinding and slicing that broadhead around inside the deer. Length of internal cuts can easily exceed the normal size of the cut by 2-3 times. Sometimes, and in this case, most times, Less is More. Ask yourself -- if you had to run thru the brush after being struck, which senerio would you choose. the pass thru, or the projecting shaft--just saying.
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Justin,
I agree with the guys that are telling you to leave out the weight tubes. I would suggest you don't want to get carried away with the weight either. For a 50 lb bow I think 550-650grn would be about right and you should be real close to that weight with the way you were gonna set up those arrows...minus the weight tubes. I shot right thru my last Alberta moose with a 520 grn carbon arrow out of a 60lb bow with a 2 blade magnus and I didn't have an EFOC like you will with your setup. That will also help penetration.
Randy
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With a 50 pound bow you want to end up about 10 grns per pound or 500-550grn. With my 55# bow I used a full length arrow dynamics hammerhead tipped with a 150grn Alaska bow hunting supply samurai. Moose are not cape buffalo worry more about proper tuning than super heavy. The gentleman I got my 1963 Pearson from harvested "at least 20 moose and probably 100 Caribou" with it. The bow is 45# and he used cedar shafts tipped with a Bear razor that weighed in at right around 450grns. Today you are required to use a 50# or higher draw weight when hunting Moose in Alaska, but judging from that Ole boys trophy room 50# is overkill.
Reminder native American bows averaged between 25-30 pounds and they definitely harvested moose!
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Oh boy
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Wow, first time I heard someone not want a passthru.
Poster is from Canada, if hunting moose in Ontario LEGAL min is 48.5lb @ 27.6 or less.
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Our legal min poundage in Alberta is 40# at 28 inches. So I am more than legal. That said I have been close to Moose on several occasions (never hunting) and they sure are a intimidating sight. Alot of folks here are advocating my 10gpi cedars and have more than enough evidence to back up their claims. And I believe each and every one of them. But I have already decided to go the FMJ route for two reasons.
1) If 500 grains is good for Moose then 650 grains should be better.
2) My sister has already bought me 2 packages of Muzzy Phantoms for X-Mas. Be rude not to use em eh? lol
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Maybe that's my problem..I don't use a light enough bow.
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Originally posted by David MItchell:
Justin, you mentioned the articles in TBM by Dr. Ashby. I did read them all.....I have also noted that the staff of TBM, T. J., G. Fred Asbell, Don Thomas, all seem to be carrying wood arrows in their quivers after all the Ashby data. They must think they work just fine, as I do. Hope you have a great experience in your quest for a moose. I want very much to try that myself. You'll find that there are as many opinions here as there are participants. That's all part of the fun.....seeing what works best for you. Enjoy :D
Dr. Ashby's work isn't just about carbon arrows. It's about "extreme front of center" (E.F.O.C) weighted arrows, regardless of the material they're made of. As far as I know, those guys you mention may very well be using E.F.O.C weighted arrows made of wood.
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Originally posted by ishoot4thrills:
Originally posted by David MItchell:
Justin, you mentioned the articles in TBM by Dr. Ashby. I did read them all.....I have also noted that the staff of TBM, T. J., G. Fred Asbell, Don Thomas, all seem to be carrying wood arrows in their quivers after all the Ashby data. They must think they work just fine, as I do. Hope you have a great experience in your quest for a moose. I want very much to try that myself. You'll find that there are as many opinions here as there are participants. That's all part of the fun.....seeing what works best for you. Enjoy :D
Dr. Ashby's work isn't just about carbon arrows. It's about "extreme front of center" (E.F.O.C) weighted arrows, regardless of the material they're made of. As far as I know, those guys you mention may very well be using E.F.O.C weighted arrows made of wood. [/b]
Based on the equipment notes they're attached to their articles, I don't think they're shooting EFOC. It takes a lot heavier head than 135 grains (or even 190 grains) to get EFOC on a wood arrow.
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Justin: FMJ's are great shafts. Phantoms are great heads. Just get them shooting straight and if you can do it at 650 grains then do it! IMO you are doing fine and should do well if you get the shot. Just make sure those blades are sharp.