Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: 2fletch on January 05, 2010, 11:24:00 PM
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About 10-12 years ago I was interested in experimenting with new (at least to me) ideas for a bow. One of the things that I tried was a bow with an experimental material for a string. It was elastic to a point but then stopped stretching. It was designed so that both the string and the limbs came into play. That was okay but rough on the hand holding the bow.
The next thing that I tried was a modified sling shot. The fork extended out past the hand and the rubber tubing was connected with a string for the arrow instead of the usual leather pouch. The arrow was only about 12 inches long and a grove was cut into the target point for the string to engage. This definitely had potential but I kinda lost interest when once the arrow didn't release and came back at me.
Another experiment showed potential but I haven't yet gone back to make the changes needed to optimize the results. This was done hurriedly in order to have it ready to show at the next club meeting. What was different about the bow is that the string went over a grove on the end of the bow and then to the sting nocks which were cut at a reverse angle to that of a normal bow. The idea was to have a bow that shot like a bow that was maybe two inches longer. Also, it had a knob on the tips which was suppose to have a camming effect. It shot okay but was not noticably fast. I do believe the concept had merit, and with a little fine tuning could be improved.
Have you ever seen a bow where the string went over the extreme end of the bow tips? I would be interested in knowing if anyone has done this before.
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Don, I believe in one of the TBB series there is a pic of an African bow that had a hole about 2" from the end of the top limb and the string passed through the hole with a knot tied in the end. To brace the bow the string was brought over the end of the bow. If you have the TBB books look it up. Pictures are worth a thousand words and the few words I've offered seem confusing.
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Must be nice to be so creative! I am really happy to tie my boots on right !
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Keith Chastain(Wapiti) makes a "Dual-Draw Weight" bow that uses a stringing method where the string is looped around and over the limb tips. I had one and it worked nice. You string it normally for one draw weight, then you can use a longer string and run the string from the oposite side of the bow and over the end of the tips. It in effect shortened the length of the bow and gave another draw weight. So, you only had to have two different strings to have two different draw weights with the one bow. I think mine was about 8 pounds difference, 53 or 58#@26. Not bad for a two pc Longbow. He had a picture of the limb tip on his site last I looked. I believe he said it's actually an old practice that goes way back to ancient times. The tip was wide and very beefy, with dual grooves for the string to lay in.
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I wish I could get the word pictures.
God bless,Mudd
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I have a "compound slingshot" from the late 70's that is set up to shoot an arrow with a notch cut into the shaft just behind the target tip. The short arrow was on the light side, but the speed was like a 30# bow. It worked very well for me. Could also shoot round projectiles with pouch on band. Very interesting set-up.
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I'm just about done making a "Sling Bow". You mount a Whisker Biscuit between the forks of a slingshot with Tie-Wraps, then replace the nock of an arrow with a glued-in golf tee, so you have something to grip. The guy who came up with it uses a folding slingshot as it's meant to be a survival item. I'm using an adjustable one that allows a longer power stroke. It might work out as adequate for bow-fishing. There are a bunch of videos on YouTube of it. It seems to fling an arrow fairly well. I'll know soon. Just something to help beat cabin fever.
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Here a picture of that Dual-Draw set-up.
(http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z208/DannyBoats/dualdraw.jpg)
Here's a link to the web page;
http://www.worldclassbows.com/dualdraw.htm
If I remember right the stringing method on the left gave you the lighter draw weight, I suppose it lengthens the working limb length. The method on the right increased the draw weight. The bow shot great either way. Mine was a two pc. and I'd still have it if it hadn't broken at the connection. His limb connnection left alot to be desired, but I wouldn't hesitate to get another in a one piece. I believe in the old days they would get the same affect by using two string grooves on each end, maybe an inch or so apart. The inner grooves give you a stronger bow, the outer give you a lighter one.
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DannyBows, looks like the wheel has already been done. I believe though that a lot more could be done with this idea. I wasn't trying to get two different draw weights. I was wondering if you could get a little more cast with the advantage of shooting a bow that acts like a bow two inches longer.
The idea of using a whisker biscuit is interesting. (The guy who developed the whisker biscuit is a friend and regular shooter here on Tuesday nights.) I believe I saw a setup once where there was a fall away rest that was used between the forks which would also allow the use of a full length shaft. I like the idea of using a 12-14" arrow/dart. I saw enough with it to realize it has some potential.
PatB, that sounds a lot like what I did. Does that make me an Afro-Engineer?
:biglaugh:
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"Afro-Engineer?"
SERIOUSLY? What year is it?!
C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L !!!
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Originally posted by NorthernCaliforniaHunter:
"Afro-Engineer?"
SERIOUSLY? What year is it?!
C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L !!!
Careful with what? Saying afro? Please. There is no racism in words, only in feelings.
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I remember seeing a bow that Keith Chastain built close to 28 or more years ago with this dual system. If memory doesn't fail me, he said it goes way back....centuries I believe.
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2Fletch,
It does effectively add the two inches to the bows length, with the result being a drop in weight.
As for the Sling Bow, the way this guy set-up the Whisker Buiscuit, it can be flipped down so the slingshot can be used with regular ammo also. My aim is increasing the power-stroke. With adjustable's I can get longer than a full length arrow shaft. I've been sick this week or I'd have it done now. It's a Pathfinder survival inspired project by the guy. They even sell two piece arrows so it all stores easily.
Check out this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6LxKfpAPYA
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I took a couple of photos of a couple of my "experiments". In the first one I''ll show the tip end of the bow with the string coming over the end. The difference with the bowtip you show DannyBows is that I was trying to get a camming effect (with the knob) and the sting nocks are further from the end of the bow. In the next photos you can view the Slingbow and the Arrow/Dart used with it
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/2fletch/P1010003-1.jpg)
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(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/2fletch/P1010007-1.jpg)
(http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n64/2fletch/P1010005-3.jpg)
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I don't get the point of putting the slingbow notch in the point of the arrow. wouldn't it work a lot better to just put it in the normal nock of the arrow?
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Danny,
I just watched that youtube video and that guy must have been a handful as a child if he's doing stuff like that as an adult.It is cool. :scared:
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Ipcjon2,I'll bet you're right.
2Fletch, I like that concept in the Slingbow. You could use a shorter arrow/dart and wouldn't need a rest or the Whisker Buiscuit. How do you hold the nock end of the arrow?
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DannyBows, I wrapped the nock end with several layers of yarn, glueing each layer as I went, until it was built up enough to grip easily.
Dave, Dannybows answered your question. You don't need a rest and can use a much shorter arrow.
Now, for the next one. I have been thinking of using a bamboo cane like an atlatl to throw an arrow/dart. The difference being to again use a short arrow/dart of say 12" with the string grove in the point. The launcher could be a shorter one of 3 feet for one handed launching, or maybe 6-9 feet for a two handed launch. Probably it would require a fork at the end of it so that it launches cleanly.
Last night I tied a 6" loop of artifical sinew to a 3 foot piece of bamboo that was about 5/8th " in diameter. Putting the 12" arrow/dart onto the loop, I launched it toward a target butt, then I did it about 6 more times. On a couple of the launches the a/d entangled in the loop and didn't release, but I was supprised at the speed of the a/d as it flew to the target. Now I'm thinking of a forked launcher and the next round.
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Originally posted by TheFatboy:
Originally posted by NorthernCaliforniaHunter:
"Afro-Engineer?"
SERIOUSLY? What year is it?!
C-A-R-E-F-U-L-L !!!
Careful with what? Saying afro? Please. There is no racism in words, only in feelings. [/b]
Would you be so kind as to elaborate, then, on what an Afro-Engineer is and exactly what distinguishes him/her from non-Afro-Engineers? Feel free to PM me if you find a compelling answer, otherwise do us all a favor and review rule number 1 on the sign-in page. Thanks.
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By the way, VERY neat concept 2Fletch.
Don't mean to hijack this thread in any way, just a little shocked to see something I don't want to just "ignore". We come from all places, walks of life and influences here, and it's one of the very rare and few places I can go on the net without cringing every other post I read. I for one REALLY hopes it stays that way. Respectfully.
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My dad made a bow years ago from a rigid pipe and surgical tubing with string in the middle it pulled 80 or 90 pounds can't remember but he said it zipped the arrows and was very short in overall length and handy blacktail hunting in the brush of northwest CA. This was in the early 60's. He then questioned the legality to himself as at that time the only bows were the wooden sticks we all love on this site (no compounds yet).When I was a kid my dad helped me make a crossbow (SORRY) of the same design and it shot pretty well it was light as crossbows go (about50 pounds) so it wasn't blazing fast but pretty cool for a kid.NorthernCaliforniaHunter I agree we need to be careful not to offend people but I don't think any reasonable person of any race would take offense to that statement especially taken in context.JMO.Often controversial words said taken in context can be less offensive than acceptable language read in context.Clear as mud as I read that back to myself??!! I guess what I'm saying is some may be more offended by the insinuation that someone who says afro is a racist. Reality is I'm as sure that @-fletch is not racist as I am that Nor-CalHunter is not saying he is a racist.Bill
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Absolutely no intention to call anyone anything. I, as anyone who knows me can attest, is the LEAST to take anything too seriously. It just shocked me, culturally, to still see a term used that I thought died out. We say a lot of things that we may not realize have some deep and ugly history.
For example, take the phrase "rule of thumb". Sure, we all use it and hear it but did you know it refers to a law that allowed for the beating of your spouse so long as the stick you used was no thicker than your thumb?
I aint the thought police and certainly don't want to be a drag around here but I felt compelled to speak out and realize I probably should have done it via PM. Sorry.
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I knew exactly your intention NCH and did not mean to say you were calling anyone anything but as I re-read my post I can see the connection and apologize for the mis-statement and I think it reinforces what I am speaking of which is the fact that we cannot inflect our true meaning into our posts so we should be careful of our posted statements as well as try not to take those of others too seriously as we may not fully understand the meaning. You are definitely not a drag and need not apologize for trying to look out for others at least not in my opinion.As for the original post I thought of one more thing and that is that the marine supply stores in my area had extremely heavy duty rubber tubing I think it was used for commercial salmon fishing and it was STRONG!! Bill
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You shouldn't have to defend something said that had no wrong intent. I'll stand behind that. A pm would have been more appropriate. There are lots of responses that could make but I won't. This site is not about politics. Can we move on now?
Huntindad, that rigid pipe with elastic is along the same lines as one of my ventures. How did he keep the elastic from slapping his hand? Also, I believe that the heavy duty tubing is designed for spear guns.
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He first bent the pipe to be similar to a d shaped longbow when strung and then he hammered the pipe flat from the sides this way he could make a fairly lightweight pipe rigid then fashioned a handle then used two pieces of tubing one top one bottom and used a string in the middle about one foot or so if I recall correctly so when strung it looked like any bow just shorter.Does that make sense? Bill
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Bill, it looks like the string would slap the heck out of his hand. That's what I found with my bow of somewhat similar design. After a few shots it would start to sting.
I considered making a short bow that you would shoot horizonally. (The bow, not the shooter!) It would have a handle that attached perpendicular to the bow so that your hand would be out of the way much like a slingshot. That one hasn't yet been built...at least not by me.
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I used to have an arrow sling years ago it was just a sling shot with interchangable bands one with the normal pouch the other with a nylon braded cord. The bands had bolt attachments that held the bands to the yoke when you attached the arrow shooting bands to the yoke you also installed wire support on the yoke that had a 'V' shape in the cinter to craddle the arrow. You would grip the nock on the arrow after placing on the cord and shoot as the regular sling shot. I shot regular 28" arrows with it.
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What was your opinion on it? My guess is that the cast was less then with a bow.
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That design looks hard to string. If you can't use that outer tip to string the bow why not just cut the string notches closer to the tip? For example instead of having the string nocks 1in from the bows tip make them 1/4 from the bows tip. You would get more working limb.
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Jesse, I had some reservations about stringing a bow with the string over the end design. I was surprised to find that with the push/pull method, there was very little problem stringing the bow.
I agree with what you're saying. Putting the string nocks on a regular bow close to the end of the limbs gives more working limb.
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The cast was not as good as a bow, one reason was it was just a sling shot it was not a wrist-rocket like they have now days so you could only pull what your wrist would hold. The newer wrist-rockets with the forearm brace would have better cast with stronger bands it would be limited by how much your nock pinch could pull without slipping, which would be much more than my wrist could stand back then. What ever you do have fun!
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I've built a couple selfbows for a guy with a built in clicked.I filed a second half nock deaper and a hair down below the first nock at at a steeper angle in the top limb.Looked like a wide uper nock.It would slip over the edge of the lower nock at full draw.Didn't really click you could just fill it slip into place at full draw.Worked really well I put one on hte first bow I ever built I still have it.It was hard to get it to slip over the second noch right a full draw at the right leanth.After you filed it in the limb the first time you could'nt change it.So when you built the bow you only got the first chance at it slipping over the lower nock at just the right draw leanth.I built this guy 4 bows to get slip over the edge at his draw lenth.
I fooled around with it with the other bows.Even tryed it on a couple other bows.But once it's filed in there it can't be changed.This was back in the mid 90's.Not many people wanted clickers on selfbow.But what was cool you couldn't tell it was there.Unless you looked at the top nock or drawed the bow.
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NorthernCA - congtrats on speaking up.
2fletch - I believe that you did not intend to offend, but the joke was not funny and not appropriate in a forum that requires respect.
I myself earlier this year thought my bow was stolen and offended an honest man on PowWow who was trying to find me & return my bow. I made an honest mistake, made an honest apology, and edited my post. We are now friends. You have already admitted the words you used were not the best. I suggest you edit your post and remove the joke/offending verbage and laughing icon.
Take are & happy hunting.
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Fixer, I remember trying to shoot an arrow out of a slingshot, but I can't remember how I did the rest part. I do remember as you said that the limit was how much you could hold.
Roy, that's interesting, but if someone pulled one of those bows without knowing that you had the clicker, they'd freak out. .
Tom,there was no insult intended and anyone who knows me would know that. I have a problem with anyone playing this polical correctnes game. I served my time to protect free speach and I won't be intimidated by someone who wants to make something out of nothing. If you have more to say then put it in an email or pm. This is no place to talk politics.
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It is also no place to make racist statements even if by mistake.:Had nothing to do with politics. I also served my contry. Army Chemical operations.
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It also had nothing to do with intimidation. I made no threats or demands only a suggestion and closed Take care and happy hunting.
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Originally posted by newtradgreenwood:
It also had nothing to do with intimidation. I made no threats or demands only a suggestion and closed Take care and happy hunting.
you've got the parting shot, now let's all move on please ........
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to get back onto the Original Topic, here are a couple pics of some interesting bow designs
First is an Photo i took of a bow at a 3D shoot out here in colorado where the bowyer had put 2 string groves on each end of the bows tips
effectively shortening the bow and increasing the bows draw weight. i dont recall the difference in weight when the shorter string was used over the longer but i thought i was a great idea and have never seen it before.
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IVY_20090523_0896.jpg)
here is another design i saw at the Pope and Young Museum with the bows energy coming from the elastic bands which could also be change depending on which groves the bands where hooked into
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IVY_20091107_1322.jpg)
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Andy, I'm starting to like the idea of two string nocks. With the bow that I showed, it could be strung over the tip and then with a conventional set up for comparison.
The second bow that you showed looks interesting but I can't tell exactly what's happening. Why are there two sets of limbs? Is the bowstring tied to the elastic tubing?
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jim & buddy were doing twin limb nocks on their 21st century top-of-the-line model (i think the constellation). no longer offered by milton, who bought out the business from j&b.
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ya Don i really like the idea of the 2 string grooves you can have 2 different Draw weights in the same bow.
the second bow is not strung so its difficult to tell from the pic
basically the first set of limbs are fixed they do not bend, all they do is provide a solid object for the rubber bands to pull against. The other shorter limbs are pivoted, the string is attached to these in one string grove and the rubber band in another (look closely at the bottom limbs to see)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h101/tradtusker/IVY_20091107_1322-2.jpg)
so there is no working part of the limbs as far as wood bending. Just the energy coming from the rubber bands as you draw the string they start to stretch against front set of limbs. Confused yet? :knothead: im not very good at explaining it sorry.
Also if you look close the position of the rubber band can be changed where the rubber band meets the solid front set of limbs. i guess to change the weight.
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Now it's clear Andy. In the original photo I didn't see the hinge. The advantage to this system over that of using a bent rigid bow with elastic at each tip and a foot or so of sting in the middle is that this one shouldn't slap your hand. Can you see where this is leading? :)
Rob, I had no idea that a respected bowyer had made the "two nocked" bow. The natural progession, I suppose, would be a three nocked bow?
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TradTusker, that Double-Nock bow is what Keith Chastain described when we discussed his Dual-Draw option. He said it's an old technique and his method was just another way to do the same thing. I like it, and having two draw weights in a one or two piece bow is nice. You'd have a 3d and hunting weight bow in one rig without extra limbs. I wonder why it's not a common practice with todays bowyers. I'd be curious to know if it's just not common knowledge, or if there is some technical reason.
That rubber-band bow is really something. I'd like to shoot that to see what it feels like.
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It also had nothing to do with intimidation. I made no threats or demands only a suggestion and closed Take care and happy hunting.
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Dave no rest to stabilize the arrow, your more likely to drive it through your wrist than actually hit a target if nocked.
Fatboy
There most definitely is racism in words! Go to the blue note on Michigan ave in Chicago and yell the N word sometime! Human expression is 90% verbal and here it is 100% typed, there fore the only way to express racist sentiment is to Type it out using words. Your post is the most bass backwards I've read here in a looooong time.
2fletch
I don't think you meant the phrase as a slur, but it is time to drop sayings like that. I really like your overstrung bow! Neat idea that should have produced better speeds. I've killed about a thousand rabbits using the arrow shot from a wrist rocket idea, deadly at short ranges. Pat B is correct on the African bow, however it's design was intended as a aid in stringing the bow not performance enhancement.
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Sorry I didn't realise there was two pages of posts. I'm way out of context.
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Rick, thanks for sharing your slingshot experience. I grew up with a slingshot and bow, and was looking for novel ways to launch an arrow. My interest is to find and evaluate any alternate way to launch an arrow whether it be by limb recovery, elastic tubing, or something similar to an atlatl.
I hope that we can avoid the deversion and continue to discuss this topic. I really believe that there are some "primitive" methods of launching an arrow that haven't been fully developed. I've been impressed with some of the information that has been shared so far. I did not know that some of this had been done.
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2-Fletch my dads bow was before my time all I know was it was similar to my crossbow we made when I was a kid.I don't remember him talking about slap but I would think that the spring in the tubing would allow it to travel further forward than a regular bow but his bow was short and had a pretty high brace height and had alot of preload in the tubing.The crossbow we made had the string running down the rail just like any, and the ends were lower than the rail and the string could have went over and caught on the end of the stock if it went far enough forward and it never did.Hope that makes sense I will ask my dad about the bow later today and maybe get some answers for you and I am sure the conversation will move into the crossbow he made as a young man using a car spring. ;) Bill
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Bill, did you learn anything else from your dad?
What you said makes good sense. "But his bow was short and had a pretty high brace height and had alot of preload in the tubing." That would help to prevent the string from slapping the wrist or hand.
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I talked to dad and he said there was no more string slap then with any bow.I think probably because there was alot of preload in the bands of tubing and the short length of the bow (30 inches or so by his memory) and its D shape.He used double lengths of heavy tubing and said it pulled in the high 80's at 30". He said it seemed that at lower weights he experimented with (less bands and less preload) he experienced problems such as low velocity and he thought the string may have traveled forward too far on those models :D He said once he ended with this one it was noticeably faster then the bows his dad had which were 40 to 50 pound longbows and recurves. Hope this helps! He also talked about the crossbows made from car and truck leaf springs, one was ground mounted because it was too heavy and he said that thing shot bolts out of sight and I think the bolts were made from heavy dowels 1/2" or bigger. Bill