Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: woodsman196 on January 25, 2010, 11:26:00 AM
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I have read a lot about how broadhead "X" will leave good blood for some and poor blood for others. I am not trying to compare different broadheads to each other. I am trying to compare two different levels of sharp on the same head design.
(Comparing "sharp" to "extremely sharp" with no other variables)
Is it reasonable to believe that all things being equal a sharper head will leave more blood on the ground?
Ivan
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That's how I see it.
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Yep.
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It will leave more on the ground with a pass through and it will also bleed more internally. The sharper the cut the longer the blood will take to coagulate.
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I'm all for sharpness, the sharper the better, but.....I think shot placement and penetration is the key factors in how much blood is on the ground. Now I do think the sharper head will result is better penetration but if the shot is at the top of the kill zone, most of the blood will be in the critter in front of the diaphram. If the shot is in the lower third of the kill zone, the blood will exit much sooner and therefore you'll have plenty of blood on the ground. I would never argue with the importance of a razor sharp broadhead, but I really feel that blood on the ground in more determined by shot placement. JMHO
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do a search on filed edge vs polished, i seem to remember a really long thread about this
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Ok I will agree with sharpness, just not razor sharp.And with a forensic background I would have to say that if you cut yourself with a razor blade on the finger(don't try this at home)you have a clean smooth cut.which both sides will come together neatly and will clot faster.So if you do the same with a not so razor fine edge it will be a jagged edge on both sides that will not come together so neatly which will result in it being harder for it to clot faster.Which gives you more blood.IMFO
This is why I believe that a saw tooth edge would cause a more damaging wound than a razor sharp one.I have seen the difference in stab wounds in my job. :thumbsup:
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Yes but there are so many factors involved it's impossible to say.
For example, I shot a buck last year with one of my compounds and an excellent three replacable blade. Pass through, left a minimal blood trail, travelled about 75 yards.
Later on in the season I filled an extra tag with one of my recurves using a Magnus 2 blade, I sharpened to cleanly cut a rubber band with minimal pressure & no drag. No question it wasn't as sharp as the razor sharp factory blades of the above mentioned 3 blade, but plenty sharp. Again a pass through, but this deer went only 20 yards and left a blood trail I could have followed with my nose.
Why the diffference? Who the hell knows...
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I cut myself on a tin can once and nearly bled out. I think a filed edge may be the way to go. At least that has been my opinion for about 30 yrs.
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lpcjopnh2, I gotta disagree a bit, sorry man.
Lots of doctors some trad gangers will tell you that a clean ultra sharp cut will bleed a lot more over a longer period of time than a jagged edged cut. The closer the sharp edge gets to microscopic sharpness the better it cuts. Also sharper leads to better penetration and more pass thrus.
Not disgregarding lpcjonh2's experience here since each wound is subjective to the situation. My experience in hunting, cleaning animals, and overseas combat wounds is that a deep razor sharp cut bleeds forever and doesn't want to heal up very quickly. Jagged cuts tended to clot more quickly.
I keep my broadheads rshaving sharp just like my knives and bayonet were kept while serving overseas. Better penetration trumps everything in my book.
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IM with ralph renfro.
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"No question it wasn't as sharp as the razor sharp factory blades of the above mentioned 3 blade"
Not always True I have purchased several top quality heads with factory sharpend replacement blades and I'll put my sharpening above alot of those. Not that I'm all that good at it but on tests with paper mine cut much better.
Now in saying that I have shot deer with the large snuffers and have Great to hands and knee crawls looking for blood with heads of eaquel sharpness. Shot placement and body possition of your target means more if heads are sharp. I shot one deer that was turned licking its back leg when I shot it. I watched it fall with in 30 yards, but no blood. What I found was that the arrow hole in the skinn was 7 inches away from the hole in the chest cavity same side! my only explanation I could come up with was the skin was stretched because of the deer's posture and slid back when it turned strait again.
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Originally posted by OS:
"No question it wasn't as sharp as the razor sharp factory blades of the above mentioned 3 blade"
Not always True
Wasn't talking about "always", was talking about the two heads I used. Trust me, I tested both before hunting them. Both were more than sufficient to kill, but the factory blades were hair shaving sharp...
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Ralph makes a great point. But go for both, placement with the sharpest broadhead you can get.
lpcjon2, I understand how a clean cut can be closed easier, that's why we make incisions with sharp blades, but won't the ragged cut get a much larger tissue response accelerating the clotting cascade?
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I like to keep my broadhead so sharp that if you look at the edge it will cut your eye. :bigsmyl:
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In my experience the more ragged hole opens more than a clean.could be due to the fibers of tissue and muscle not retaining their smooth interlocking fibrous construction.cut into a steak with a razor and put pressure on one side of the cut,it will close cleanly and then cut it with a serrated knife and do the same it will have gaps and that's what allows for a blood trail.Its my opinion and my experience.Its up to you to choose what you want.buy 2 cheap plastic kids ball made of vinyl and shoot one with a razor sharp blade and one with a file sharp edge and see the difference for yourselves.
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There seems to be an agreement that sharpness is a key component in blood on the ground. What is still open for debate is "What type of sharp?". How does a person gauge sharp? At what point do you say that head is ready for my quiver?
I have never hunted with heads that I felt were not sufficiently sharp but I feel I can get them sharper. My goal is to determine when I have done all I can reasonably do to get my heads as sharp as I can.
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Originally posted by lpcjon2:
In my experience the more ragged hole opens more than a clean.could be due to the fibers of tissue and muscle not retaining their smooth interlocking fibrous construction.cut into a steak with a razor and put pressure on one side of the cut,it will close cleanly and then cut it with a serrated knife and do the same it will have gaps and that's what allows for a blood trail.
As I understand it the skin and to a point the flesh of an animal are under tension so when cut they will naturally gape. Add to that the jarring effect of a running animal and I think there will be little opportunity for the wound to seal.
As an aside I agree a scalpel cut under direct pressure will close and seal better than a ripped or torn wound.
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Have you ever tracked a deer(after a 20-30 min.wait) and found the spot he laid down in and after that no blood.all it has to do is have the right pressure and 5 min and the hole could be closed.
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I get my heads and especially my wife's so that they will shave easily, and then I have a file that has the milling only on two sides, smooth on the narrow side, with that I cut a very fine serration. Over the years this has worked best for us. If we were only cutting single density tissue with very powerful bows and penetration was not a concern, perhaps razor smooth will give the better bleeding at the surface. With my wife shooting very light bows, penetration is important, and arteries are tough, I do not want a broadhead sliding off. She started getting pass throughs when I went to this extreme, I do not see any reason to change when things are working so well.
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Originally posted by lpcjon2:
Have you ever tracked a deer(after a 20-30 min.wait) and found the spot he laid down in and after that no blood.all it has to do is have the right pressure and 5 min and the hole could be closed.
The honest answer is no. Every deer that I have tracked that laid down did not get back up. Now I have heard many stories of that very thing happening I just have not tracked enough animals to experience it yet. I am not some super hunter or tracker I just have not been on more than a dozen or so tracks. I think any wound can close up with the right pressure and some time.
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I think the sharper edge has a better chance of getting thru the hide on the far, exit side. That is most important to me. This year I got a paper wheel sharpening system and I now know what sharp really is. I will never again settle for less. I think it was Charlie Lamb did a post on super sharpness and blood trails. Pretty impressive.
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A truly sharp head will out penetrate a sharp head. The original question also stated "all things being equal" Are we over analyzing this?
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In many articles I've read the scientific explanation on why smooth cuts clot slower than ragged ones (Ashby has also written on this). Most of us can attest to how long a cut from shaving can take to clot. There seems to be no debate on this in the articles I've read on the subject.
I think the advantages to extremely sharp blades is very distinct. As to anecdotal evidence from individual kills - anything can happen on any given shot. There are a million variables and who's to say which contributed more on a particular one.
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The sharpness of the broadhead has everything to do with a good blood trail. I had the experiance of tracking a double lung top of the heart shot doe. She was shot with a dull broadhead by mistake (another story). She barely bled for the first 40 to 50 yards then where the deer fell there was blood everywhere. The deer was dead within 60 yards but the blood trail was sparse at best. LCH
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Yep...the sharper the better....to a point.
That point is making sure you don't have a bevel so thin that it dulls/rolls on a rib going in, or grazing a bone. You want the bevel durable enough to come out sharp enough to shoot again, that means it went all the way through cutting everything.
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OK - we test on rubber bands; our arm hair; our thumbnail -
lpcjon2 says a sharp wound will stop bleeding faster; and I have seen scalpel cuts in surgeries that hardly bled at all.
Fact is - we rarely shoot animals with no hair. So whatever we shoot goes through hair before it hits skin; through skin before it gets to the blood filled arteries and veins that we need to cut.
'After hair; a really sharp head will be more likely to still be sharp'.
Really?
Maybe not. If you sharpen a head on a high degree angle; it may not make it through the hair and skin of the animal and retain sharpness.
On the other hand; a low degree angle might.
Or maybe not- I don't think we have studied it all that well.
I sharpen with a file; a mill bastard file; and I have hit just a leg vein more than once; and keeping the deer walking; it could not clot; and it eventually led to the deers death.
It very well could be what our wound expert says- and that fits well into my own forensic training- a ragged cut will not close up and stop bleeding like a sharp one will. And that vessels will shrink up at the point of the cut and stop bleeding- perhaps that is why surgical cuts do not continually bleed ( lpcjon2 - your input here please).
But what stays sharp through hair and skin- well that is the question.
I insist on sharpness - and to never shoot an arrow at an animal (or a target either) and shoot it at animal- unless I sharpen it again- .
If I can shave with with it- I know its sharp enough- my arms are always bare: before the hunting season opens :)
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Here you go.
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/ashby_getting_an_edge_on_success.pdf
Ed
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In my opinon, sharper does equal more blood. But does not automatically equal to more blood on the ground.
Gilbert
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Bloodtrails... excellent or poor are the result of three basic factors coming together in a complete recipe: Shot placement, pass through penetration and sharpness. The sharpest blade in the world won't make up for a bad hit, two holes will always bleed better than one, and even a perfectly placed shot with a dull broadhead won't produce much blood. We need all three ingredients in combination.
As for the physioligical/medical reason's that the honed edge has been proven to inhibit cloting, see Dr. Ed's link above or ask any other surgeon. I've heard too many medical experts say the exact same thing to question their expertise or conclusions.
Ron
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Interestingly, shochetim (the ritual slaughterers who slaughter according to kosher laws)have been having almost this very same argument over knife sharpness for a hundred years or so. The debate continues and each group has it's own adherants, but no agreement has yet been reached.
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I have never heard anyone say my" broadhead was too sharp" or "my knife was too sharp" Just some food for thought...
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woah!!!
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I got some new Magnus-1 two edge heads for Christmas from my lovely wife.
I mounted them, and shot them, and then put a RAZORS edge on them.
New Years Eve found me in a treestand. I put an arrow on the string, and "test" drew my bow as I always do. Did you know a Magnus-1 is a tad wider than a Delta?
I TOUCHED my finger with the new RAZOR edge, and proceeded to leak for the the rest of the evening. This was one wound, that the keen, mirror smooth surface that did not/would not clot.
I`ll opt for mirror smooth every time.
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Dr. Ashby
Thanks for the link I will read it with great interest.
Originally posted by Sharpster:
.....even a perfectly placed shot with a dull broadhead won't produce much blood.
Ron
Ron
This statement is the meat and potatoes of my original question. Even though I asked about "blood on the ground" what I really wanted to know is does the degree of sharpness effect blood loss. Even if it is internal. My interest in this topic is not shot placement, shot angle, broadhead type, pass throughs or whatever else, I acknowledge that all of those factors lead to the ideal ending. I am just interested in the cutting edge and when I know the edge it at it's optimum sharpness.
Thanks for all the replys.
Ivan
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Dr. Ed,
I was waiting on that.
Thanks
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I like a filed edge that is then cleaned up just a little with a standard butchers steel.
It will cut hair, but it's not quite "cut your eye balls" looking at it sharp.(THANKS BORNAGAIN)
The reason I do this is because I also belive a bad cut that bleds a lot, is a ragged cut.
All that being said,the size of the holes are more important to me in so far as "blood trails" go.
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no question. . . once you shoot scary sharp (I learned when I used some Sliver Flames) you realize the difference. I used blades that could shave hair for years, but shaving hair and scary-popping- hair-sharp are two different weapons.
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Already posted by Dr. Ashby himself, but an absolute must read! Here it is again.
http://www.alaskabowhunting.com/PR/ashby_getting_an_edge_on_success.pdf
After 25 years of successful bowhunting, I have finally started honing my broadheads to scalpel sharp, after the results from this season, I will never do anything but this again. Give it try.
Thank you Dr. Ashby for all your outstanding work! Please keep the info coming, it has improved my archery and bowhunting comprehension and proficiency profoundly. What an excellent resource of information!
Sincerely
Kris Herman
Wisconsin
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Coagulation is also related to the body's response to trauma and the razor sharp cut produces less response and takes longer to stop bleeding. Even so, the amount of blood is generally determined by where you hit it and if you get an exit wound, preferably low.
I always liked not finding too much blood for a bit and then watching it get better. Hated to see a lot and then less as I went on.
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you should have your broadheads either razor sharp or sharp with a burred edge, wich acts like serration.
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One other point that I think needs consideration and that is how hard is the metal in the broadhead you are using. If you are using a broadhead that is "soft" (on the R hardness scale) then it won't hold that fine,honed edge going thru the hair, hide and ribs. The edge you worked so long to get will "roll over" before getting to the "goodies". That is one reason why I think most "old timers" prefered a filed edge. Look at some of the broadheads they were using. I don't know what the hardness is of a Bear Razorhead (greenie) is, but I'll bet ya' (if I was a betting man) it ain't as hard as a Zwickey Eskimo. Just put a new file to both of 'em and see for yourself. I ain't knocking the old Bear Razorhead. I love 'em and the last deer I killed this year was with one; but I'm not going to spend hours honing one 'cause it ain't going to hold that edge. You'll be better with a filed edge, IMO.
Try this for yourself. Get a sample of different broadheads (soft and hard) and sharpen them both ways (filed,carbide etc. and honed-as-sharp-and-as-polished-as-you-can-get-them). Now go out and shoot them into foam broadhead targets, cardboard targets, 3-d targets, etc, and see which ones are sharper. I think you will find that ones with the harder metal will be sharper than the softer metal broadheads..NO MATTER WHAT EDGE YOU STARTED WITH! I was going to use some new/old stock MA-3 broadheads this year. Man they flew great, mounted straight and was so easy to sharpen. However, I think they got dull just breathing on 'em. Shoot them one time into a foam broadhead target and if you rubbed them on your finger you might get a blister but you weren't about to get cut.
Try the same thing with a old beat-up, paint burnt off Zwickey Eskimo that you have and you better be close to a hospital. Just something else to throw into the mix! :campfire:
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Originally posted by Ralph Renfro:
I'm all for sharpness, the sharper the better, but.....I think shot placement and penetration is the key factors in how much blood is on the ground. Now I do think the sharper head will result is better penetration but if the shot is at the top of the kill zone, most of the blood will be in the critter in front of the diaphram. If the shot is in the lower third of the kill zone, the blood will exit much sooner and therefore you'll have plenty of blood on the ground. I would never argue with the importance of a razor sharp broadhead, but I really feel that blood on the ground in more determined by shot placement. JMHO
My thoughts exactly.
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I had some steelforce broadheads that were sharper than all get out, left poor blood trails though! My 2 blade zwicky's leave great blood trails and I know they are not as sharp as those steel for were! It remains a mystery!
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I like the filed edge myself.Never a problem with blood on the ground and the head is usually purty sharp afterward. I`m no doctor but I believe a finely honed edge could dull going in even more so on a rib and not be as "keen" as it started out where a file sharpend edge thats a little rough will hold the edge longer. No scientific proof only redneck logic but I do know it works for me.RC
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Would any one use a knife with just a filed edge? Try cutting thru a sternum with one and let me know how its working for you. And the difference is?
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Well I just get the sharp as I can. :) Never seen any difference between a smooth polished edge or a file sharpeded one.Once they cut a rubber band easy and pop a few hairs they will do any job I need to use them for.I don't care how sharp one remains after it cuts the first 12" because it is just going to be sticking in the dirt after that. :D
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i know alot of old timmer that use to take the broadheads out of the package and would rub them on the cement alittle to jagger the tip thier thinking was tha ta jagged edge would tear instead of getting a clean cut that falls right back togeather the tear causing more damage this said a duller head will penetrate less :campfire:
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I'm with the Dr. on this one. I file sharpen my heads and then use a butcher's steel followed by light stropping. It works.
Joe
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Just about anything sharp works. . . I always thought my Magnus that shaved hair off my arms, cut through bone, and always had fine blood trails were just fine (and I still think they are). . .
BUT, HONESTLY- if you have never used a head as sharp as the Silver Flames, Ron's KME sharpened heads, (new heads coming out from ABowyer) etc. then it may seem all the same to you. I posted a topic a couple years ago on this very issue. I have been bow hunting for 35 years, and I am telling you- once I shot some deer with those Silver Flames (not promoting the head as much as the hardness of the metal and SCARY sharpness!) I realized that there is an entirely higher level of scary sharp!! :scared:
The cutting, blood, lack of clotting, and minimal response by deer was absolutely amazing to me. You literally only lightly touch these blades and they cut your finger. To see a deer on the ground dead within seconds while blood just continues to pour out the wound is amazing. . . and has/will continue to happen many times over if I have any say!
I am trying to learn how to sharpen all my heads to that sharpness now. KME is helping.
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That's what I like, KSdan.
Many years ago I spent about 10 minutes talking with Ed Ashby and he handed me an auto body rasp to change the angle on my grizzlies.
I use a 14 inch Nicholson flat bastard mill file after the angle is changed, then switch to a 6 inch grobet for the last, light strokes, then strop on leather glued to a board to remove the burr.
In all, about 5 minutes per head after the angle has been changed the first time.
My heads are the sharpest thing 99% of the people who come to Hog Heaven have ever felt- no exception. They are deadly on game.
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KS Dan and Super K make a lot of sense in regards to my thinking. Until a person uses a truly sharp broadhead they only have their own experiences to go with what works for them. Today's broaheads are made from a superior steel and we have found that a certain Rockwell hardness will hold a better edge. Softer steels will sharpen much easier but are they more durable. A true honed edge will outperform and outlast anything else...IMO How many would "file" sharpen a knife to butcher with? Isn't a broadhead a "knife" on the end of your arrow? Lots to debate but I believe it comes down to peoples acceptance to what is good enough. There really is no right or wrong answer so if we are all happy with what we are using then let just GO HUNTING!
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I am a meat cutter by trade and while no doctor I would like to add. First off when I attended my meat cutting course our instructor taught us how to use his wheel grinder to sharpen our knives. Using this method I was able to get my knifes so sharp that the mere wieght of the blade on my leg would shave the hair right off. However another student in my course was never quite able to figure the system out, and as a result his blades rarely shaved hair. During our course we were required to "stick" live animals. These included Pigs, Cattle and Lamb. We each would have a set day when we would be the "sticker". I can say that without a doubt, the shaving edge caused more bleeding for a far longer period. When I stuck my critter the blood would gush out and when we pumped their legs after, very little blood remained to be drained. When my classmate stuck his he did not get quite the same amount of gushing, and pumping the legs always resulted in large spurts of blood. I believe this was due to his duller cuts clotting at a faster rate than mine before the animal died of blood loss. We each stuck our animals in the same spot with the same model of blade and our animals were often of same body size. We killed over 100 animals in our course and the results were always the same.
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Justin,
Great info.
Case closed, IMO.
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Once had these yokells 3 in all told me that they did'nt need to sharpen their broadheads.Every time they shot into the foam practing the foam sharpen their broadheads.