Post by: Old York on January 27, 2010, 09:03:00 AM
I keep seeing reference to a deer's shoulder.
What is the "shoulder" on a deer to you?
Where is it?
Scapula?
Humerous?
Radius and Ulna?
Where the scapula joins the humerous?
Where the humerous joins the radius/ulna?
Post by: reddogge on January 27, 2010, 10:13:00 AM
That's about as technical I can get with bones but basically it is the scapula, the wide plate like bone with a ridge running down it you don't want to hit.
http://www.deerhunting.ws/deeranatomy.htm
Or just look at my avatar.
Post by: ChuckC on January 27, 2010, 10:54:00 AM
It has been my experience, based on results from EVERY hunter safety class I have taught, that most folks really don't know.
They ALL called the shoulder that point where the fore leg meets the body from side view (our elbow). They ALL have been taught to aim behind it, as in several inches behind it.
That puts them really close to missing lungs even if they hit where they are aiming.
None of the classes.. ever.. positioned the heart, lungs and liver correctly (yes we have a model for this portion with velcro-on organs)
There is more, but it will just create yet another argument so I will shut up here.
ChuckC
Post by: beaver#1 on January 27, 2010, 11:30:00 AM
Post by: JAG on January 27, 2010, 11:30:00 AM
I've taught Hunter Ed. and IBEP for better than 25 yrs.
There are very few "hunters", that can show where the internal organs are positioned, correctly. Nor can they idenitify the sketal structure.
Its not that they aren't good hunters, they've been told to shoot behind the "point of the shoulder", by their mentors and hunting friends.
Most after taking an IBEP course have a better understanding of the internal organs and skeletal structure.
Its suprising just how many people have told me, after taking the IBEP course, that they learned the correct placement for the internal workings of a deer.
Not putting anyone down, its just they didn't have access to correct information.
Post by: Old York on January 27, 2010, 11:34:00 AM
To the bottom?
:bigsmyl:
Anyone else?
I'm asking opinions on what you consider to be the "shoulder".
Shot placement is a whole 'nuther Bag 'O Cats caught in a weed whacker
cement mixer blender microwave dingus thingy.
Post by: Terry Green on January 27, 2010, 11:57:00 AM
The shoulder is what the shoulder blade is encased in. See the shoulder blade above??? That's the shoulder. That's a fact and not an opinion.
Why would we have an 'opinion' on where the shoulder is??? Do we have an 'opinion' on where the nose of a deer is? An 'opinion' on where the tail is? An 'opinion' on where the hoofs are? No, of course not.... they are where they are...fact, and most hunters know exactly where they are.
BEHIND the shoulder is the best place to aim, which is above the elbow. This is the CENTER of the vitals and gives you the the greatest margin of error and the quickest cleanest kills.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/drawskel2.JPG)
Post by: Terry Green on January 27, 2010, 12:07:00 PM
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/deer-anatomytg2.JPG)
And yes,....there will be no can of worms opened
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
Post by: reddogge on January 27, 2010, 03:26:00 PM
I had an unfortunate experience with shoulder bones. I bounced a Razorhead out of one on the biggest deer I've ever shot at (12 points) with a 50# recurve in 1972.
Post by: bornagainbowhunter on January 27, 2010, 03:40:00 PM
Post by: Old York on January 27, 2010, 04:46:00 PM
Post by: ChuckC on January 27, 2010, 06:04:00 PM
Most folks (at least around here) are taught to aim behind "the shoulder" and then they point to a spot several inches behind the elbow. That is what they called "the shoulder".
I teach hunters ed, specifically this section and I get to ask ALL of the students we teach about this. This is not my opinion, it is what they tell me and show me.
By aiming above the leg, as shown in Terry's diagram, you have the biggest bestest open area for lungs and heart. You center punch them. And you have only ribs to contend with.
If you aim, as I just described (behind the elbow) you have a really good chance of shooting behind the lungs even if you hit exactly where you are aiming. . no error (except in judgement).
I really believe this is in large part why folks going to Africa reportedly have such problems with shooting too far back, as read in many many threads about that topic.
We need to learn about FOC and arrow flight and sharp broadheads and all sorts of stuff. And we need to learn about critter anatomy.
As I stated above NONE of my classes got it perfect and many had not even a realistic clue where the heart / lungs / liver went.
Take a look at the placement of those shoulder blades. . the biggest portion of them are above and forward of the chest cavity. I had previously posted a picture that I took of the WI DNR's deer skeleton. I will try to find it again and repost. It shows the same positioning of the shoulder blades.
ChuckC
Post by: John3 on January 27, 2010, 07:29:00 PM
Bowhunter Ed should be mandatory in every state for every age....
Post by: Bjorn on January 27, 2010, 07:38:00 PM
Post by: Guru on January 27, 2010, 07:49:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Bjorn:Very true Bjorn....
Same shot will work wonders on a pig.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/Solana/Solana08072.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/Solana/Solana08010.jpg)
Post by: Terry Green on January 27, 2010, 08:21:00 PM
Low and tight is good...low and back aint(yellow crcle)...the same shot low and back would double lung if it was high and back(pink circle).....so again I aim for the middle right over the elbow for the greatest margin of error on a broadside shot (orange circle).
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/feralhog1a.JPG)
I quit shooting hogs 'low and tight' after I lost one due to it being 3 inches back. I now aim as I suggested above(orange circle).
Same low and back on the deer would kill it(orange circle)....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/deer-anatomytg2a.JPG)
Post by: charles m on January 27, 2010, 10:28:00 PM
Post by: onewhohasfun on January 28, 2010, 03:48:00 AM
Post by: Terry Green on January 28, 2010, 08:38:00 AM
Post by: Cool Arrow on January 28, 2010, 08:43:00 AM
Larry
Post by: BowMIke on January 28, 2010, 08:55:00 AM
Post by: Horne Shooter on January 28, 2010, 09:00:00 AM
Post by: NightHawk on January 28, 2010, 09:16:00 AM
Post by: Guru on January 28, 2010, 10:04:00 AM
Look at these....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/anatomy%20pix/heartlunghog.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/anatomy%20pix/cavityhog.jpg)
Look at the difference at how the lungs and heart actually lay....
Heart and lungs are suspended in that diagram... what's holding them up there??
Look at the real pix...
Heart/lungs lay right on the sternum....
Terry's aiming point doesn't change though...straight above the leg is where you want it on a BS critter....
HS makes some very good points about quartering away on big boars :thumbsup:
Post by: Jason R. Wesbrock on January 28, 2010, 10:52:00 AM
As part of the class, students were asked to “build a deer” by placing cutouts of the heart, lungs, liver, upper leg bone, and shoulder blade on a silhouette. Initially I thought this was a waste of time, until I saw the results, which were shocking. Out of twenty-four experienced bowhunters, I’ll bet less than five did it correctly. Up until that time, I would have never guessed that so many experienced bowhunters had such little knowledge of the anatomy of their quarry.
I also agree with Terry about shot placement. Those deer diagrams perfectly illustrate the common sense that a lot of us are perplexed by actually having to defend. Hopefully, Terry will make a separate post about shot placement, using those diagrams, and make it a sticky at the top of the page.
Post by: Guru on January 28, 2010, 11:20:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Guru:
QuoteOriginally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:Amen to that, let's do it! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
[qb] I would have never guessed that so many experienced bowhunters had such little knowledge of the anatomy of their quarry.
Hopefully, Terry will make a separate post about shot placement, using those diagrams, and make it a sticky at the top of the page. [/b]
Post by: Terry Green on January 28, 2010, 11:51:00 AM
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/heartlunghoga.jpg)
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on January 28, 2010, 12:04:00 PM
Now heres a question for Curt,
Where to shoot them wary ol gobblers? I've killed plenty with a smoke pole but I ain't even getting it out this spring. Only stik and string.
Post by: Guru on January 28, 2010, 12:11:00 PM
But we'll get to that soon as well :thumbsup:
Post by: Terry Green on January 28, 2010, 12:15:00 PM
I think sharpeness if the most important thing on these type hogs whether 2, 3, or 4 blades,...you gotta be SHARP on how ever many blades you choose.
This was a 300+# sow WITH a shield that was passed through with a 60# longbow and a Zwickey 4 Blade that was SHARP.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/sc20.jpg)
The hog in the clip was shot with a 70# longbow and a WIDE 2 blade that stopped in the off leg bone with no exit wound.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/paraboar10.jpg)
BlockHead had both and entrance and exit wound with a SHARP Zwickey 4 blade from a 67# longbow.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/Martyboar1.jpg)
Post by: Terry Green on January 28, 2010, 12:17:00 PM
I'll call ya later Curt.
Post by: John3 on January 28, 2010, 12:22:00 PM
While field dressing I realized that my "perfect" was indeed too low.
If I had hogs in MO I would be a hog hunting machine...!
Post by: wv lungbuster on January 28, 2010, 12:38:00 PM
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on January 28, 2010, 12:52:00 PM
It ought to be good one.
Post by: jonsimoneau on January 28, 2010, 01:08:00 PM
Post by: charles m on January 28, 2010, 01:38:00 PM
Post by: ChuckC on January 28, 2010, 03:12:00 PM
It is time.
ChuckC
Post by: Kenneth on January 28, 2010, 03:55:00 PM
Post by: Horne Shooter on January 28, 2010, 05:46:00 PM
1. 67 lbs is pretty heavy...
I think most here don't shoot that heavy.
2. I have killed big boars with little (or almost no) shield. I have killed some under 200 lbs. that had them close to an inch thick.
I shot a humongous boar last year right above the elbow and the broadhead snapped off where it met the insert-- My last shot with aluminum in my set up. The pig probably thought he had been bit by a big misquito. The arrow literally bounced off. He looked like a volkswagon with feet. Anything short of a buffalo set up (in my opinion) would have been inadequate. Quartering away might have done the trick..guess I'll never know.
Post by: Terry Green on January 28, 2010, 06:30:00 PM
I put up those pics and specs so folks will have something to go by and measure up their set up.