Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Covey on January 30, 2010, 04:12:00 PM
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All this talk hear lately about EFOC,right or left helical, stike plates, dynamic spine, etc..etc.. I been at this for a few years now and you guy's make my head spin but if I was a new guy I would not know which way was up! cut us some slack! WOW! Jason
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I keep mine simple. I shoot 10 gr.#, a sharp broadhead and the arrows fly right.
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Jason,
In case you haven't figured it out, this is what we do between hunting seasons. Don't take it too seriously. Any newbies can ask questions and get great answers that won't blow their minds.
Relax! All this other stuff just keeps some of us entertained until we can get back into the woods.
;)
Russ
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Kiss( keep it simple stup&%) is still the easiest way to go. :thumbsup:
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Technique and style are like opinions. Take them with a grain of salt. Choose what info works for you and use it. All this info given out just proves that there is no "one correct way"! As you get a little more experienced you too will will be giving out advice of a technical nature as well. Just don't get upset when someone Else's opinion differs from your own. So take small bites of the info and run with it! Enjoy yourself!
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Originally posted by 30coupe:
Jason,
In case you haven't figured it out, this is what we do between hunting seasons. Don't take it too seriously. Any newbies can ask questions and get great answers that won't blow their minds.
Relax! All this other stuff just keeps some of us entertained until we can get back into the woods.
;)
Russ
:thumbsup:
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C'mon now Covey, don't you strive for better arrow flight when your results are less than desirable? Is it not human nature to improve on what we have until it's the way we need/want it to be? When you were a teenager, didn't you tinker around with your car engine just to get it to go a little bit faster or run better? It's the same with trad archery as much as anything else, especially when you hunt with your bow. If you can get a little better penetration on that whitetail just by tinkering with your side plate or adding a little extra weight to the end of your arrow, isn't it worth it instead of buying new arrows or something else expensive? Lighten up a bit! :) ;)
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I've found there are "techies" in all hobbies and they just enjoy fiddling around with the technical stuff. Some of it I read and most of it I ignore but they seem to enjoy it and talking about it.
I'm an old dog and like to check out the new tricks sometimes.
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I kept it real simple my first yr...I had no idea what I was doing, and no one to show me.
Managed to shoot a deer with arrows so poorly matched and with a nock set so low the paint was wore off my arrows. Got a complete pass thru and watched the deer go down from my stand. It worked but it didn't make it right. I've come a long way since then.
I like to tinker with my set ups...half the fun for me. My good buddy is just the opposite, that's the beauty of archery, make it as simple or complex as YOU like. He was smiling for three days when I made him a new string as it completely changed the way his bow shot. He thought a string is just a string.
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I never have had problems in oh, about 50 years of shooting arrows, getting arrows to fly. I've always kept it real simple, have never bare shafted or paper tuned, or any of the other techy stuff some guys are so into (not that there's anything wrong with that if that floats your boat). It sometimes seems to me that we are needlessly complicating something that is essentially very simple Could it be a hold-over from compound days? Indeed, if performance is the main aim, if we could somehow just put some cams or wheelie things out on the limb tips, I bet we could even get more speed.....oh, wait, I think somebody named Allen already did that, didn't he? :rolleyes:
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The more complicated, the better.
I figure the more things we're supposed to know, study, and get EXACTLY right, the more excuses I have.
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I like to piddle. Keeps me in the backyard and out of trouble in the off season. Plus, it allows me to learn, first hand, what does and does not work.
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Ya,if you pay attention to EFOC, bareshafting, paper tuning, polished BH edge, GPP etc. it makes you less trad :readit: :knothead:
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Covey. Don't seat it. Work on your shootin...... Much more important than all those acronyms combined. :readit:
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IMO some compound shooters making their way over to our side of the fence brought their baggage with them. :p Most important for us is to learn HOW TO SHOOT RIGHT!
Then we can/should/maybe tinker with our hunting rigs. Find what works and stick with it. You are gonna want proper arrow flight and a quiet bow for big game hunting anyway. Simple.
... mike ...
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ignorance is best fought with intellect. Knowledge is power. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
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I completely agree w/ David Mitchell. As a teen many years back, I bought a Pearson 40# recurve, got some arrows spined for 45#, and started shooting. Able to get groups the size of my palm @ 100ft after a year of occasional shooting around after school. Using Bear arrows store bought would have taken any game I would go after. So much simpler then.
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I don't get it either, it's a stick & a string for cryin out loud !!!!
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Everyone who isn't interested, isn't ignorant. Knowledge is indeed power, but like any power, it must be managed sensibly.
I love it when folks start spouting axioms...it does make them sound like they are in the know 8^).
You can make it as hard or as easy as you need, friend Covey. I'm basically using the same relative setup that I used over forty years ago. Of course that would make it antiquated to the new age traditionalist, but it works wonderfully...and is extremely deadly and accurate.
What you need to do is simply get your equipment shooting perfectly...it doesn't matter whether it fits someone elses idea of what is appropriate; lots of these folks weren't even born yet when many of us were shooting field rounds and killing bucks with the bow and arrow.
Archery is still fun, and easy....you can keep it that way, or stress yourself to the point of taking up golf (shhhuuuuddddeeerrrr). Hang in there and enjoy....it's an El Nino year and there will be lots of hot air flying during the course of the year 8^)))))))))))).
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Quote:"When you were a teenager, didn't you tinker around with your car engine just to get it to go a little bit faster or run better?" I can answer that one..NO! Never! My dad and brothers loved doing that kind of stuff. I was happy with a stick and string, it could be a bow or a fishing pole, it didn't matter to me. I'd take an old single shot shotgun and walk the pastures, fields, fence lines and railroad tracks but I hated greasy stinking cars. I found it a pure delight to figure out mom's long handled teaspoons if hammered out flat and sharpened with a file made a darn good broadhead to tie onto the end of my arrow after I cut that long handle off.
She wasn't nearly as pleased with them as I was though...lol
When I started driving things didn't change much for me but it did give my older brother and dad something else to try and tinker with but I would stop them if I caught them monkeying with it. I always said if it gets from point A to point B and back again, it's good enough.
God bless,Mudd
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I for one enjoy the more technical tips that are presented here; and to think, they are free.
To each their own. If you don't agree you can certainly disregard the information. Great site here with a lot of options.
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I love when people love what I say. Im sure that there can't possibil be a better way for for an arrow to be shot from a stick and string. If it was just about simple, wouldn't we all be shooting primitive equipment? Just cuz it can be simple doesn't mean you should no londer look to improve. I tend to think that I am in the know, and don't ever plan on stopping at "good enough for me". Imay not have been born when some of you were shooting deer with bows but that doesn't mean that what I have learned is less relevant.
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Originally posted by Covey:
All this talk hear lately about EFOC,right or left helical, stike plates, dynamic spine, etc..etc.. I been at this for a few years now and you guy's make my head spin but if I was a new guy I would not know which way was up! cut us some slack! WOW! Jason
I gotta be honest chief, it's a little surprising you would take the time to log on to this online forum to type that post in. A forum without information would be a sad place indeed. ;-)
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It gives everyone something to talk about; if you can't shoot or hunt at least we can BS and maybe learn something.
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Poor arrow flight manifests itself in poor penetration. I put excellent arrow flight ahead of bow poundage, arrow weight,arrow speed, and broadhead design. For that reason, I'll keep fiddling & tinkering, looking for the most efficient setup for clean kills...
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I only care about my arrows flying perfectly with broadheads attached... Actually I tune arrows using my Zwickeys.
I did do the FOC formula the other night only because I found it in a book and had a calculator handy.. Yeah my arrows are %23 FOC and fly PERFECT... LOL
Shoot well and often...
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So less tech threads and more like this? (http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/poke.gif) :goldtooth:
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Originally posted by NDTerminator:
Poor arrow flight manifests itself in poor penetration. I put excellent arrow flight ahead of bow poundage, arrow weight,arrow speed, and broadhead design. For that reason, I'll keep fiddling & tinkering, looking for the most efficient setup for clean kills...
Well said! :thumbsup: :clapper:
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Make it as simple or complex as you like. Don't let others tell you to make your shooting any more complex than you want it to be. Trad archery can be as simple as a carved tree limb, a sinew string and some cane arrows with stone points. Or you can go full blown with a DAS Dalla, efoc arrows and all the bells and whistles. How complex it gets is entirely up to you. If you don't like the technical discussions just ignore the threads that include them.
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No offense ya'll, I've been shooting a recurve for about 6 years and the reason I picked one up was for the simplicity of it. I shoot a 54# @ 28" silvertip and can put arrows in a duct tape roll at 25 yards I shoot 2117's with 125 grn snuffers they weigh about 550 grn's "10grn's per pound". I'm glad ya'll know all that tech stuff so I can glance at and then see what George has to say about it! :D I like to read about stumping, squirrel, rabbit, deer and what ever else you guy's like to hunt. Sorry to offend anybody JMO that's all! Jason
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Most of this "tech talk" is basically the small end of nothing, whittled down to a fine point. If it floats someones boat,fine. It is more value to Field archers, i.e olympic archery. As for hunting requirements its basically useless, and often a needless distraction-- causes needless aniexty, especially for newbees. My experience, leads me to believe, as others have suggested-that it is mostly "compound baggage."
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To a certain point, I think you're right...but...
I've seen way to many that get into this sport with that mentality that don't do nowhere near enough to get a well tuned set-up. Keep it simple, no need to tinker, bla, bla ,bla
Just buy a bow and arrows that someone said would work and then end up with terrible arrow flight,a louder than it should be bow, etc.....see it all the time at gatherings....
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Originally posted by Chuck Hoopes:
Most of this "tech talk" is basically the small end of nothing, whittled down to a fine point. If it floats someones boat,fine. It is more value to Field archers, i.e olympic archery. As for hunting requirements its basically useless, and often a needless distraction-- causes needless aniexty, especially for newbees. My experience, leads me to believe, as others have suggested-that it is mostly "compound baggage."
Amen... brother, Amen...! Jason
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Just a stick and string and straight wood arrows with old Pearson deadheads for me. But then, I can see where trying new ways would be fun. Just keep it down with the gadgets!
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I said it before and I’ll say it again. Some of you all are picking fly poop out of the pepper. Hunt and have fun
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""... picking fly poop out of the pepper."
I Like That!
... mike ...
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bow--arrow--shooter...nuff said
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I have to agree with Curt on this one..
When I started trad I bought a longbow and some wood arrows the guy said I needed and that was it.
I never could get good arrow flight or consistent groups, I did get lucky and killed a deer that year but wounded two does after my first buck (which was pure luck as it was not a well placed shot). I pretty much gave up bow hunting for a couple years.
I got back into it and found this site and have learned more about tuning my setup and shooting in general than I ever knew. Now I love bow hunting more than I ever did with a wheelie bow and I was ate up with that.
I take the info that I need and apply it to my hunting situations and can shoot a golf ball or anything that size out to 30 yards (most of the time) in a hunting situation although I limit myself to 25 yards in the woods just because it seems right to me.
I still like to keep it as simple as I can without the gadgets and such, But as far as all the info I find here... All I can say is thanks for making available if I need it Gang.
:thumbsup:
Kris
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It's all good. Just so long as everyone has fun and no one gets an eye poked out. :thumbsup:
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You can learn a lot with just a click of your mouse. Or choose not to. I agree with Guru
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Originally posted by acadian archer:
I keep mine simple. I shoot 10 gr.#, a sharp broadhead and the arrows fly right.
+1 :readit:
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HOWEVER, messing with higher weight arrows (increased gpp) or higher weight forward arrows (increased foc) might make for better penetration and better flying arrows. don't listen to anyone, don't make up yer mind 'til you do the testing to see your own results.
same is true with 'skinny strings'.
you'll only be guessing with any of this stuff unless you try 'em all first. i have, and higher gpp and efoc are things that work to my added advantage, so i use 'em. big ditto's with skinny strings, too.
'added advantage' - those are the key words.
keep 'em sharp, get 'em to fly great, hit 'em in the right spot.
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It is only difficult if you don't know how to do something.I have never found any of those things difficult at all.It is just part of the things I do involved with shooting my bow.I think no more of it than stringing a bow and picking an arrow from a quiver.It is just part of the process for many of us, not something difficult or out of the norm.Like putting on your boots in the morning,it is easier if you put your pants on first. ;)
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Originally posted by James on laptop:
...Like putting on your boots in the morning, it is easier if you put your pants on first. ;)
that's the perfect answer and sums it all up nicely. :D
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I think you should go with what you are comfortable with. I personally like to fiddle with the technical side of things. I don't think making a arrow more effecient to kill when it strikes its target takes away from being traditional. I think its the right thing to do It doesn't give you any advantage in placeing the arrow where it belongs it just might help you make a cleaner quicker kill. JUST MY THOUGHTS.
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I've messed with brace height, nock point setting's, spine, tip weight, string silencers and such. I want the best arrow flight possible and I want to make good clean kill's. I believe I've achieved that. My dad alway's told me if it aint broke don't fix it!! so when I get it where I want it I leave it alone. Like I said JMHO! :) Jason
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Fiddling and trial & error leads to greater understanding of archery and greater independence as an archer. It's a step toward maturation. Let's face it, I bet most here don't have a trad saavy pro shop close to their home. Heck, for me, the nearest true compound pro shop is 100 miles away. The nearest trad shop is half a day's drive east in Minnesota!
Not knowing how to tune your tackle is like being a great guitar player who doesn't know how to set up & tune his own guitar. I don't care if you can shoot groups inside a duct tape roll all day, I know lot's of good to great shots. If you want to impress me, combine that with a thorough understanding of the tuning required to allow this to happen.
As an aside, this is one of the things that rubs me the wrong way about modern archery. I'm willing to bet if you gave the majority of compound shooters a bow and everything he needed to set it up & get good arrow flight, he wouldn't have a clue where to start let alone how to do it. Hey, I know guys who don't even know how to adjust their sights! I get asked to set up, tune, or help sight in several every year and the only payment I require is the owner watch & learn.
Something else to ponder; if it weren't for folks fiddling & experimenting, most all of us wouldn't be shooting the bows that we own as they wouldn't exist...
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I find it ironic that "keeping it simple" includes being on the internet and complaining that others want too know why instead of just shooting in the backyard to be "good enough".
Heck I've been at this a while too and spend a lot of time talking to others that know more about things then I do. Why? So I can learn and be better at what I love too do.
Never heard of EFOC until a couple years ago. You know that if you try it, dang if it don't work.
Stu's spine calculator has been around a short while, but dang it's saved a lot of people a lot of money in buying shafts that are not right for their bow.
If everyone learns a little more, we all get better. Maybe we can go to a shoot or gathering and actually see good arrow flight and bows that are setup correctly. Be a nice change.
Mike
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"We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard ."
~John F. Kennedy
I heard that speech when I was a little girl. I remember his voice, and it stayed with me. Didn't always let it guide me, but it stayed with me.
As archers, we take the road less traveled, going an extra mile or two. We do not shy from a little extra effort, because we feel that the rewards are sweeter that way. We get what we give, and the harder the journey, the more we savor getting our boots off and stretching out before the fire.
That being said, we each have a different idea of how much is too much work, or even what is work. While I flee from figures like a cockroach from the kitchen light, others like to play with them, tweak them into backflips and revel in the pure logic of math. Just as some take to 3-piece recurves and some to selfbows, we are all vastly different. This is to our benefit, this is the advantage that a flock has to a single bird, as the penchant that one pursues serves to aid and educate those of the flock who pay attention.
So, before this turns from filet to jerky, here is the crux of the biscuit: Take what you want from the knowledge that is presented. If it intrigues you, try to disprove it, or build on it. Find out the truth.
If it bores you, and you find it no fun, ignore it and go have fun in your own manner. Perhaps you will experiment with horse archery, or survival skills, or something juicy like that, and let those who love the absolutes of math frolic as they flirt with the sometimes fickle physics surrounding the workings of the bow and its missiles.
And in the end, we will all benefit from knowledge gleaned as we pursue our own individual joy.
Killdeer :campfire:
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indeed, as with our archery tackle, we are all 'experiments of one'.
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Wingnut,
I totally agree with you.
But haven't you heard? The fast, flat shooting out to 40 yard arrows are way too addictive to do that EFOC stuff. Why do anything different?
We are in control of everything so a shoulder bone will never be hit anyway because that is not where we are aiming.
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Well said NDTerminator and wingnut! AMEN, AMEN. You too, Killdeer!
The ones who are lucky enough to get everything set up correctly on the first try, I guess don't need any "tech advice". That's alright, just wait 'til they get a new bow and it doesn't work out right on the first try. Then, they just might need some of that technical direction after all.