Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Dr. Ed Ashby on January 31, 2010, 01:27:00 PM
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A much needed product has just hit the market. It is one-piece inserts/broadhead adaptors MADE OF STEEL. I've only done preliminary testing on prototypes of these, but even that tiny amount of testing verified that they are far stronger than a steel BH adaptor used with a barss insert.
At the moment only 2 sizes are available: One in .203" diameter, for the Axis shaft. It weights in at 198 grains. The other is in .246" diameter, which fits the Gold Tip and other shafts having this common shaft inide diameter. It weighs 236 grains.
These one-piece steel inserts/broadhead tapers not only aid the arrow's structural integrity, they will also help with FOC.
You can view them at: www.traditionalarcherysolutions.com (http://www.traditionalarcherysolutions.com) and here's an active link: http://traditionalarcherysolutions.bubbaspc.com/traditionalarcherysolutions/index.asp
Disclaimer: No, just like every other archery company and its products I don't have any financial connection with this company, or any of its products either! Just alerting everyone to a another ' performing better product'.
Ed
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Brillant! I was wondering when something like this would hit!
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Thanks for the heads up Dr. Ed!
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Thanks Dr.! Looks like a fine product that will work well with my set-up and the the abundance of glue on heads I managed to accumulate over the years and at K-zoo this weekend.
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interesting, viable, but no cigar for me.
i want a steel INSERT, so that i can use screw-in points - broadheads, judos, field points. a nice added touch might be a variable weight system that screws in at the rear, as found today.
better yet, an insert that's really long with a tapered or parallel inner wall to act as a shaft footing strengthener at that critical area of the arrow.
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Here they are
(http://i184.photobucket.com/albums/x39/Sapcut/100_2586-1.jpg)
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Hey 236 grain! I dont even need broadheads with those!.. It would be more like throwing a spear than an arrow I think... I will have to stick with brass or alluminum
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Rob,
This IS a fine product but I agree with you on the benefits of unscrewing whatever and screwing on a judo or field point or whatever else.
I have already talked to the owner/creator of the above product about the insert only idea. He is a very good guy and maybe a 200+ gr. steel insert will be out sometime.
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Rob, I'm hoping for those too. They would also be a much needed assetfor the folks using screw in broadheads.
Ed
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I would definitely like to see some heavier adapters. I was thinking the 236gr. would be great but when I did the math it's just a little more than I'm getting now with 100gr. insert and 125gr. adapter and the adapters are cheaper. I got a little too excited and jumped the gun. I still think they're a great product but it's hard to beat the versatility of the screw in adapters, just wish they offered them in 150gr. and 200gr. weights also.
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Great looking product. If enough people weigh in and he can sell enough product, I bet the manufacturer will expand his line to include other items. I would have to say that if you want them to be 200 grains just cut off a little at a time until they are 200 grains. Simple fix. Thanks DR. Ashby. I will have to look at trying some of those out.
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for the most part, i don't use pre-made screw-in broadheads. i get much more versatility using a glue-in head and a steel adapter, that currently screws into a brass insert. changing that brass insert to steel, or better yet a fixed weight long and hollow (tapered or parallel wall) steel insert would be killer in more ways than one.
using a screw-in head made from a point and adapter allows me to safely use epoxy as the mechanical bonding agent. if the head gets bent or otherwise, i heat the head to break the epoxy bond, saving the adapter for another point mating.
this way, i can use one broadhead for different holding weight bows, varying the front end weight by using different adapter weights. one thing i can't change is the insert weight and i only use 100gr brass ... but would rather change that to 150 or 200 grain STEEL. :)
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Originally posted by Predator Man:
Hey 236 grain! I dont even need broadheads with those!.. It would be more like throwing a spear than an arrow I think... I will have to stick with brass or alluminum
what's the holding weight of your main hunting bow and the total broadhead arrow weight you use with that bow?
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I think I'm going to have to try some of them with a 190gr WW Elite on top. Can't wait
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Originally posted by Earl Jeff:
I think I'm going to have to try some of them with a 190gr WW Elite on top. Can't wait
got 300gr screw-in vpa terminator into a 100gr brass adapter - potent pig medicine! :)
mmmm, better yet - 300gr vpa into a 200gr steel insert! killer! :D
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where do ya get 200gr steel inserts at Rob
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Originally posted by Earl Jeff:
where do ya get 200gr steel inserts at Rob
hah! i don't! that's on my wish life for mr. jon hand. :wavey:
for me, that'd make for a 735gr carbon arrow out of the 55# 'hawk. i've shot 755gr arrows outta that bow and the trajectory is fine out to 15+ yards, but at 20+ yards it takes some rethinkin' of the aiming system.
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I think that there will be more versions coming along. I, too, would like to see some versions substantually heavier that what a 125 grain steel screw-in adaptor with a 100 grain insert gives - i.e., something significantly above 225 grains. Perhaps 275, 300 and 325 grain versions (or a 200 grain steel insert that I could screw a 125 grain steel adaptor onto).
Ed
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Dr. Ashby,
What about longer broadheads? Like 4-5" by 1-1.5" or so weighing 400-500 grains (with a long ferrule for adding lead above the adapter). Wouldn't that get the weight where you want it, as far in front of the shaft as possible, for higher FOC? The total weight would not have to be different than arrows and broadheads we're using now. It would just eliminate the need to add weight INSIDE the shaft where maybe it is less efficient regarding FOC.
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4" to 5" long broadhead is close to being a spear head! :scared:
i like the idea of a 3:1 broadhead, and versatility in adjusting the front end weight via screw-in points and adapters. however, i'd also like the vulnerable shaft area just behind the insert to be stiffened up via a tapered wall footing, which could be part of the insert itself.
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Rob, that's a pretty slick idea! I like the thought of an internal footing that adds weight and strength to the business end of the shaft. Sign me up for a order of 100 please.
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Rob, there are at least a couple of folks in the industry looking at that; an insert/tapering IF combination.
Richie, Yes, getting the weight as far forward as possible is an advantage in boosting FOC, but don't hold your breath for a 5" long BH! Right now I'd settle to get a decent single-bevel glue on weighing 250 to 300 grains!
Ed
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Love the looks of it Dr. Ed, think they could make the tail end a little longer, of steel and have the internal footing and all? Like most products hopefully this develops into more.
J
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J, for the very best results you wouldn't want the IF to be of a non-flexing material, like steel. As well as being progressively tapered the IF needs to have also be capable of a graduated degree of flex. This is critical for maximum strength on angular impacts.
There's some experimentation going on by at least a couple of folks to find a material suitable for an IF that, hopefully, can be either attached to an insert or supplied as a unit with an insert. It's not an easy task to accomplish, but I hope they come up with the right material and 'how to' to solve the problems encountered with the first few of their prototypes tested.
Ed
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
interesting, viable, but no cigar for me.
i want a steel INSERT, so that i can use screw-in points - broadheads, judos, field points. a nice added touch might be a variable weight system that screws in at the rear, as found today.
better yet, an insert that's really long with a tapered or parallel inner wall to act as a shaft footing strengthener at that critical area of the arrow.
i second that Rob :thumbsup:
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Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
J, for the very best results you wouldn't want the IF to be of a non-flexing material, like steel. As well as being progressively tapered the IF needs to have also be capable of a graduated degree of flex. This is critical for maximum strength on angular impacts.
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yes, i agree with the desire for some flexibility behind the insert, which is why i bring up the concept of a longish, hollow tapered aft section the extended hollow wall of such an insert.
doesn't hafta be tapered, either - it could a graduated step.
or, perhaps just take an existing insert and add a 4" or so 'tail' of weight tube.
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With respects to Dr. Ashby and just for info's sake, while never "on the market" I have had for well over a year the same basic product for my Beman MFX shafts that my bowyer Dan Toelke designed and had manufactured. These Chrome Steel inserts have a short ferule, weigh 105 grains and when the hollow end of the ferule is tapped full of soft lead wire, they weigh 125 grs. There is 1 3/16" of steel insert that goes into the shaft, a very strong set-up making the possibilities with different weight broadheads and also different weight brass or cut-off sections of steel inserts added behind that 1 3/16" almost endless. While I like the looks of this product and like to shoot a lot of weight up front in my carbons, sometimes it is hard to find a truly new product. As a note, I cannot recall why Dan did not put his inserts on the market, it may have been the introduction of the brass glue-in/glue-on inserts around that time but regardless these steel inserts certainly seem to offer obvious advantages.
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I know I have bent several 100 grain brass inserts. But usually only after a contact with steel. Steel inserts would be better.
Also the steel in broadheads could be improved dramatically, with San Mai (sandwiched) or something like that. I'm surprised at how far behind that is from say, knife making. CPM3 scored the highest strength ever in the pendulum test on hardened steel (at 59 rockwell). As far as cost, well were already paying some big prices for broadheads.
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Rob, you're right about the IF design. The initial IF's I worked up were parallel outside, with a solid forward section and a rear-section internal cavity that was first stepped up to a larger diameter cavity and then conically internally tapered on the rear 1/3. It worked well, but was much, much more difficult to make (by hand) than the externally tapered configuration. Both worked equally well. I also tried some that were solid and parallel (at shaft ID) at the front, then stepped down in diameter, then stepped down again.
All these designs have been tried in a number of different materials, even to some pretty exotic materials used in the space program. There's a fair amount of behind the scenes work still going on with the IF's (and one piece or combined material one piece IF/inserts). I just hope we will get there before I'm too old to bowhunt! :pray:
Ed
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Ritchie,
Pretty cool, all you need to do is add an ounce of extra virgin olive oil and you are done!
:goldtooth:
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Buckmeister,
Yea I use that instead of hot melt.
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For what it's worth, this thread has prompred at least one more individual to begin looking at a viable, factory made IF/insert. Get enough folks looking and sooner or later someone is going to come up with one that is both practical and economically viable to manufacture! :clapper:
Ed
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Word from Kustom King is that the 1.25" wide model is being discontinued already! I just ordered two three packs.
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1.25" wide model?
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:eek: Me too, Jason! :confused:
Ed
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Yeah, I posted on the wrong thread. Sorry guys!
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No problem. I buy my adapters from Kustom King and wanted to know if I need to stock up again.