Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Jmgcurve on January 31, 2010, 10:55:00 PM
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Always had trouble (elbow pain) with handshock when trying to shoot a longbow. I saw something on this site about "fastflight" type strings causing less handshock on "hybrid" type longbows.
This is probably going to open a can of worms, but do you folks have experience or opinions on the matter.
Help,
Michael
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Stay away from a Hill style and go for a R&D longbow and you wont get any handshock...also shoot a 10 gr lb arrow at least,, Shot a friends new high end longbow with light arrows and it kicked a lot
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Low stretch strings reduce the hand shock on every bow I've put it on, recurve, straight longbow and highly reflexed/deflexed hybrids. Heavier arrows help, too, of course. But the low-stretch strings transfer more of the limbs energy to the arrow, which means less of it is transferred to the riser and your bow hand as shock. The low-stretch strings also reduce limb vibration at the end of the shot, making the bow feel more crisp and solid rather than spongy with a lot of vibration.
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Orion said it, along with faster arrow speed.
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I have had the same experience,the low stretch strings reduced handshock on every bow I put it on.The bow feels more solid and not springy.I use low stretch strings on all my bows except a older Ben Pearson and Browning.
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transmitting the most energy from a bow's limbs to the arrow is far more than just string fiber type.
the key will always be arrow mass weight - the more it is, the more of the limb's energy will get transferred to the arrow via the string.
well flying arrows retain more of that limb energy on release. another prime reason to take the time to match arrows to bows and archers.
ditto's for achieving a good string release (form!).
lightweight strings are more efficient in transferring that energy. if a bow can handle hmpe string fibers, use that fiber and reduce the string's weight by using less strands.
imo, the starting point for a stable bow on release would be a 10gpp arrow and a lightweight string. do your own testing for what works best for you.
'lightweight string'? yeah, that means a 'skinny string'. think: 6 strands of most any 100#/strand hmpe fiber for bows up to 50# and 8 strands up to around 65#. do pad the loops. if you've been using 12 or 14 strand strings there'll be a better transfer of energy and less overall bow noise.
imo, other string considerations - don't use a metal nocking point, they're too heavy and will eventually damage gloves and tabs. a metal nock point is good for setting its correct location, and after doing so replace it with a tied on, knotted string nock point soaked in thin cya ... use the minimal amount of center serving - for most folks there's no need for 8" or 9" long center serving, just enuf length to protect from armguard slap, and that could be as short as 4" or 5" ... test out and use the smallest, lightest string silencers possible.
it's the cumulative use of a lotta little tweaks that can add big returns.
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Wow Rob I feel as if I slipped back in time to my physics class some 20 years ago. That was deep explanation and was able to pick up on the information to apply to my ignorance in trad shooting!
Possum
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Rob nailed it pretty good! :thumbsup:
One other thing comiming from someone that also has tendonitis in the elbow.The skinny strings stop moving much faster than a a heavier string on release.This means less vibrations that hit the elbow even if it would not be considered as handshock.They do make the elbow feel better. :)
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I guess I'm just gonna have to try it once I settle on a "go-to" bow. If and when that happens would someone volunteer to be my T.A.(Traddicted Archer) sponsor. I need to have more self control....lol
God bless,Mudd
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If I squeeze the bow real tight and shoot with too straight of a bow arm I can feel the twinge of an old elbow injury with either string. Of course, if one shoots with too much of a bend in the bow arm, your elbow will let you know about that as well. Even though a non-stretch helps a lot, the bow will take the punishment even with padded loops. Some bows will have shortened life with the new strings, I have been told. Though I do myself, risk using a padded FF string on a yew figerglass bow I built, (standard Schluz copy), when I want to shoot stiffer arrows with it.
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Interesting. I haven't seen any proof of bows having a shortened life with the 'new strings'.
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Pavan....there is no empirical evidence that the new strings will create a shorter life on any bow. I'm currently shooting one on a 67' Shakespeare Necedah, and it is doing very well after a few thousand arrows. That "I've been told"....is just like "They say!" No significant testing has been done, since that would require actually shooting modern strings on old bows. Well....except for what I'm doing..and a few others are doing as well.
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Originally posted by kat:
Interesting. I haven't seen any proof of bows having a shortened life with the 'new strings'.
as george just mentioned, i don't think anyone's kept records of blown up old bows due to using hmpe strings. whether it's hype and myth is up to your guessing.
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I have a 70 inch 55# HH Bow with buff horn tips - use Dyna 97 - no hand shock at all!!! Hunter
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"Interesting. I haven't seen any proof of bows having a shortened life with the 'new strings'."
I've been asking for any proof other than opinion for years. So far, it in the same file as "flemish strings cause limb twist" and "endless strings are much better in all ways than flemish", etc.
In my experience, low-stretch string materials do help tame a "shocky" bow, and can make even a bow with little shock more pleasant to shoot.
Chad
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Takes me about 50 shots to get used to Fred Bear and his fine 56" 1969 Grizzly after shooting my Shrew ! After the shot I can feel them wide thin limbs and B50 dacron string shaking for what feels like a minute ! Just the difference between the technology of yesteryear versus today. When I go to the bowrack I cannot help but take ole Fred out every now and then. He only shoots POC woodies too when he gets to go out and play. :archer:
nocams
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I have had several famous bowyers tell me they don't like them on their bows. I have myself seen a Schulz with the string grooves damaged very obviously by a thin nonpadded fastflight. I use them myself with padded loops. That is why I pointed out the fact that I use padded fast flights on my nonfast flight compatible bows. A string maker told me that some folks have caused problems with the new materials making flemish splice strings by not keeping all of the strands at equal tension. One or two tighter strands can cause an increase of psi under the tighter strands, which can eat up the grooves quicker.
But this fellow was asking about handshock in relation to elbow pain. The fast flight certainly reduces it in my bows, by keeping the momentum of the limbs from carrying shorter than with the older strings. So far I have not any bows break with the more sudden stop myself, but as i stated I have seen string groove damage from poorly made fast flights.
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Originally posted by LBR:
"Interesting. I haven't seen any proof of bows having a shortened life with the 'new strings'."
I've been asking for any proof other than opinion for years. So far, it in the same file as "flemish strings cause limb twist" and "endless strings are much better in all ways than flemish", etc.
In my experience, low-stretch string materials do help tame a "shocky" bow, and can make even a bow with little shock more pleasant to shoot.
Chad
hey chad, 'fess up - you just know that endless strings are way better than flemish! whoa bud, just kidding, just kidding!!! :D :wavey:
either string type are more than up to the task of working well for a trad bowhunter, just take yer pick.
i dunno of any scientific studies on bowstring fibers, both dacron and hmpe, and their effects on selfbows, older 60's and 70's stick bows, and modern stick bows. that'd be quite interesting, just no incentives to invest the time and money in such a project.
back in the 70's i witnessed a kevlar string literally destroy the limbs on a hoyt gold medalist during the release. that scared the krapola out of me big time.
hmpe is not in the league of kevlar, but some of these modern fiber blends are incredibly low stretch and creep. enuf so that i won't use hmpe fibers on older bows.
when i replaced the 14 strand dyneema string on my bow with an 8 strand string i did notice some initial stretch, but once the string settled in the brace height held firm from that point on. the noise level on release dramatically improved. i dunno at all about any arrow speed increase, nor do i car. i have no proof, but i logically expect the 8 strand string stretches more on release than the 14 strand string ... therefore, if so, the skinny string might be kinder to the bow limbs. i also think a lot depends on the arrow weight and yer release form.
as always, ymmv!
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I know someone with tendonitis or inflamattion is gonna be way more sensitve to handshock and notice it way more than someone who has a perfectly sound elbow.So I can appreciate your quandy.The tiniest amount of handshock is gonna be amplified and also irritate an allready existing problem.
Some bows I have that seem to have no handshock when my elbows feeling good.I notice do have more vibration when my elbows feeling irritated or inflamed.I usually grab one of my bows that truelly has alomost no handshock at that point.So shooting is more pleasurable.
Those typically have more mass in the riser.a longbow with a phenolic riser or a combination of phenolic and Diamonwood would be a good choice for you IMO and one with a little more size in the riser possibly.Like hummingbird for example.
I agree with everthing else that was said about low stretch strings with lower strand counts,heavier arrows and a good dyanamic release decreasing felt hanshock.A slightly bent elbow will help with recoil as well.
Just wanted to point out that you may look into a riser with more size and or mass weight for your longbow of choice.A lighter weight limb choice is gonna be nice as well.Maybe even one with carbon and foam.I like my Morrison all phenolic riser with carbon and foam limbs for almost vibration free shooting and a whippingstick carbon limb with Diamondwood riser.All phenolic would be best though.Toelke offers an all phenolic riser as well.
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Lol--which is better (endless vs. flemish) depends on which book you read! I was more thinking about bow warranties being voided because you used an flemish string (yeah, they are that bad).
Also, I should have included the disclaimer "properly made". I've seen two old bows with the tips sawn off by skinny FF strings.....but I've seen a lot more bows break and delaminate with dacron strings (most while in my hand)...must have been the string's fault? That one only applies if it's a HMPE string--if the bow is sporting a dacron string when it fails, it's due to ANYTHING but the string!
I would love to see an honest study, but I'm afraid you are right--no incentive to do it. I can understand why some bowyers don't trust them, just like I don't trust super skinny strings--it's based more on what might happen rather than a rash of bad experiences.
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i've always wondered if there was a stigma placed against hmpe string fibers by the older bowyers, and passed on to the younger bowyers, by the old guys equating hmpe to that nasty kevlar krap?
i dunno what the tensile strength of those skinny kevlar strings was, but they had almost zero stretch, like stainless steel trolling wire. yikes, what the heck were we thinking back in the 70's?!?!
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I have tendonitis, so am pretty sensitive to handshock. A while back when awaiting a replacement 10 strand 450+ string for my Shrew, I temporarily substituted a 14 strand Dacron string I had. Definitely louder and definitely more handshock (as measured by my elbow-OW-meter).
Oh, and add me to the list of people who have been shooting non-Dacron strings on supposedly Dacron-only bows without problems for years. I have an older Cascade that LOVES skinny D97 (padded loops, yes).
Doug
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Thanks for the input guys. I will continue to shoot both on this loaner MOAB to see what I think....
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I ditto what everyone else has said about the new "skinny" strings. I just got to wonder if 10 years from now if we won't all laugh about when we use to say all OLD bows couldn't use FF strings when in reality it wasn't the bows, the glues,etc at all but the way string grooves were cut with no thought on how to help balance the load all the way around the tip! Just my opinion. I honestly think a FF skinny string is more forgiving on any bow IF the string grooves are made to DISTRIBUTE the load across the limb.
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I'm running D97 on everything now, including my 65 Kodiak and selfbows, with minimal strand count. Plenty of shots through all of them. It's a no-brainer.
Make sure your string grooves are properly radiused around the back, pad the loops appropriately, and shoot the high performance string of your choice.
Honestly, if I did own one of those old cheapies that has no tip overlays, thus making a proper radius impossible, I would add tip overlays before I would use dacron. Once everyone catches on to the truth, dacron will go the way of the dinosaur. There's just no comparison. The speed increase is just the icing on the cake. The "cake" being the feel of the shot. I might even switch to skinny-endless soon, just to get an even snappier feel. I dont really get into all the performance fads, but string performance makes such a huge difference in feel if nothing else, it's worth it.
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Well, to follow what Doug Young says about Cascade bow and modern materials. A gentleman I have known for over 20 years, back in the early '90s bought a solid phenolic riser bow with yew limbs from Steve. It had alot of vibration and we put a F.F. string on it. Made a huge difference!
Hoyt, years ago, had a video, showing in slow motion the differnce in the F.F. string and dacron at release. Big eye opener! Just like the paradox of an arrow at the shot.
I have shot F.F. strings on selfbows since 1991, the bows still shoot! Speed is not the issue, performance with the heaviest arrow is!
As for the "skinny string" folks, be careful. Like telling your teenage children, "it only takes once".
There's alot of new folks out there, and shooting form and technique, and being comfortable, and having fun is the important first step!
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I make and sell Dacron strings, both flemish and continuous loop. I have not made a fastflite string in years, since giving up target archery. The reason I don't make them is simple. Cost of materials. I can get a pound of dacron for less than the cost of a quarter pound of the fastflite, plus some people would want one type and other people would want another type. So that is why I stick with dacron.
Saying that, I shoot a forty year old bow that means heck of a lot to me. Am I going to risk breaking it with skinny low stretch strings? You can bet your D97 I'm not. I'm happy with the way it shoots the arrows that I have tuned in to it. I'm not interested in getting a few extra fps out of it. I'm happy with the way it is. And I'm sure there are a lot of people just like myself who have been shooting for years and are quite happy with the set up they have.
I just wanted to put my 2 cents in to point out that it's not always necessary to keep pushing the envelope. Form and tuning are more important to me.
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Originally posted by frank bullitt:
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As for the "skinny string" folks, be careful. Like telling your teenage children, "it only takes once".
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and by that you mean ... what?
there are extremely safe margins for 'skinny' strings.
low strand count strings are for modern hmpe fibers that rate at 100# tensile strength or above.
i would never use dacron for a low count string as that would be marginal at best.
as an example, take a modern 50# holding weight stick bow that's rated for hmpe string fibers as an example ...
most folks are using 14 or 12 strands of hmpe. 12 strands x 100#/strand = 1200# tensile strength string on a 50# bow. that's mega overkill.
at most, a good and very safe tensile strength bowstring forumula is 12 x the bow's holding weight.
do the math and see why a 6 strand hmpe string is more than safe for that 50# bow.
then compare that to a 12 strand dacron string, which will break at or below 600#.
a proper 'skinny string' is a very safe string for any modern stick bow capable of using an hmpe bowstring.