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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: scbowhnter on July 07, 2010, 02:05:00 PM
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Guys,
I'm looking for a little advice for specs on a hunting canoe. I've identified some public ground near me that I can use a canoe or jon boat to access. I've never owned a canoe and was wondering if some of you guys who have used them might give me a list of things to look for? I would be using for deer hunting and it might involve carrying the canoe some.
Thanks!!
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http://www.bwmarineproducts.com/square_stern_canoes.htm
http://www.osagian.com/
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Here is another good place to look.
http://www.directboats.com/
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CJ,
I have an Old Town Discovery, 15ft with the middle seat. I think it looks more like the Osprey model they have now. We have had it for about 10 years now and it has performed flawlessly. We hunt and fish out it a lot.
I got it with the rowing package as well. This makes it prety easy to make good headway in rough water, against the wind, by myself.
A few things I think are important to have with a hunting canoe: Wide in the beam to handle loads, a fairly sharp entry to the water so it is easy to paddle while loaded, a good keel so you can stay on line with a load and a rigid bottom. Some canoes have lesser rigidity in the bottom and will "oil can". This helps some with stability but not with a load.
I don't have any trouble loading, unloading or portageing my boat even though it is a little heavier than a strict tripper type.
I think they have a square stern model if you are wanting to add a motor.
Holler if you have more questions.
OkKeith
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Thanks guys! Great info.
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There are two types of canoes- the type that is "canoe like", marketed for the summer BBQ at the lake crowd, and another type that is designed to perform under a lot of different conditions, including with a load and meant to go places far from the landing.
The first type will only cause you grief if you try to actually do anything with them. The second type are made for folks who go on multi day trips and like to have some adventure anyway. So you will be well served with any number of this type canoe.
Most canoes made for consumers were first shortened versions of longer, proven designs. Eventually that morphed into canoes made to just "look" like a canoe.
That type is marketed to unknowing consumers and usually have flatter bottoms (seem more stable) have a big honking keel so yo don't have to know how to paddle to keep straight. These are shorter in general. Not that short canoes are all poor designs, but you have to know what to look for. A longer canoe can carry more, handle bigger water and is easier to paddle for longer periods. A canoe with a good design 17 feet long is actually quick to turn, tracks straight and can carry you, a buddy, gear (and a deer on the trip back).
Look for a canoe at least 16 foot long with a more rounded or shallow vee bottom section. Though tippy to the uninitiated, this is actually a very forgiving design and has great secondary stability. Something you will appreciate if you get caught out on a lake and the wind picks up. Flat bottom canoes will seem stable, but do not retain that if you tip them very far. They will go over without much warning, don't handle waves very well and without a big keel to keep the bottms flat will oilcan.
A really good way to learn about canoe design is look and read about the old guide canoes. They had to do a lot of things well under bad conditions.
Then apply those traits to the newer designs as a bench mark. There are some pretty good modern hull shapes- Mad River is one example.
The canoe I built was patterned on an 1886 guide canoe. I used it everywhere- flat rivers, big lakes, small streams with quickwater. It had no keel and turned on a dime, but tracked like a dream. It was 18 foot 6 inches long.
Not saying to go that route, but wanted to show how the lengths we are accustomed to seeing as "good" are not really that but just a way marketers tried to keep from scaring off consumers because they usually want a canoe the wifey can help lift or can fit on the Prius. A 17 or 18 foot canoe only seems long until you use it.
Hope this helps.
Joshua
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CJ,
Build one yourself....seriously.
Here's one that I built a couple of years ago: http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1154446908054848947seOWfg
It's flat on the very bottom and stable enough to stand up in. It took me about 4 weekends to build, though I had some experience with epoxy/fiberglass already.
You can get plans for it from selway-fisher.com - it's called the "Raven" and is about 14' long.
I just sold it a couple of weeks ago to a good friend of mine - just wasn't using it and it was taking up too much space, but I'll build the exact same one if I want another one.
'Bout $200 in materials and you'll be floatin'.
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You also might want to look at a tandem Kayak, can carry a load is stable and easy to paddle alone! I have an Old Town "twin Otter" that works great!
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This may be a bit more expensive option but I'm picking up mine on Friday in LaCrosse, Wi. that will be mainly used for fishing small streams and lakes but I do plan to hunt with it when the occasion arises. Check out his website at .
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I have an Old Town Tripper (for about 30+ years now), close to 18" long and about 80lbs. Great for tours, extended trips, etc., but a handfull to portage and move around unless you have a partner or are in good shape. The thing I prefer about the Tripper, is that it is WIDE, and thus much more stable in the water, even for taking a shot with my bow. Plus, with it's bigger size, it will carry more gear in, and or big game out. No matter what canoe you decide to get, ALWAYS wear your life vest!
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I love using small rivers to access hunting areas. I've used a johnboat, a canoe, and a kayak, and the kayak is by far the easiest to handle getting in and out of the water. I have also used a canoe with trolling motor to access public land that borders a big lake, to help get away from other hunters. Got a couple of turkeys that way, listening from the water for gobbles.
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CJ,
Tom had a great I idea, build one. That way you get exactly what you want.
Tom- That is a great looking boat! How much were the plans?
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Originally posted by Hit-or-Miss:
... No matter what canoe you decide to get, ALWAYS wear your life vest!
I'll second that. Its no longer "uncool" to have a floatation vest on.
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Originally posted by OkKeith:
CJ,
Tom had a great I idea, build one. That way you get exactly what you want.
Tom- That is a great looking boat! How much were the plans?
Thanks, CJ.
The plans are $69. Go here and scroll down to see some other examples: http://www.selway-fisher.com/Opcan16.htm
If you're good with wood and have some experience with epoxy, you really can build it in about 4 days....all of it.
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I have been on something like 60 wilderness trips in Canada and have used my canoes for hunting many places. I have owned many canoes. For hunting I now use a kevlar Mad River Explorer, with the built in stem guards. It is 16'4" with about 2" rocker and a slight v hull. You want some rocker for control in waves and current, it also helps with landings. A good stable 16 footer is a Souris River, but getting one where you live may be harder. Do not be afraid to get your feet wet, no matter what canoe you get. Life will be simpler and your canoe will thank you for it. Canoes that are heavy flat and hard to paddle will end up staying behind. Canoes that are designed for speed on flat water like the Wenona Minnesota II are great for lakes and two people that weigh less than 200 poundsm but will fight with you everywhere else. the wenona Spirit II or Adirondack will be better. If you plan on bouncing it off rocks a lot a roylex will be heavier and tougher. Stay away from polypropolenes, they are too heavy. Aluminums like the the Alumicraft Quetico models are okay, but they are noisier you will need two people and it is no guarantee that you will not blow a rivet if you bang them up. If you shoot out of a canoe there is no hull that will not rock if your drawing motion rocks the canoe. You need a well balnced smoooth draw for that, but it has been done. One note, if you are goose hunting with a pignut hickory self bow from a canoe, make sure the finish is perfect or it will get soaked and drink up half the marsh, and then lose about half its speed.
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If you think you might want to try building one look up pirouges, pronounced pee-row. You can also look up the "4 hour canoe" and have about the same thing. Both are a perfectly flat bottom and are made from plywood.
I bought a kit from Uncle John's store online but haven't had time yet. There is also a forum on building at southernpaddler.com
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Great info and thanks to everyone for taking the time!!
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I've got a 17' Mad River Explorer that I reccomend to anyone looking for a canoe that paddles well and carries a load.
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I have an Old Town Stillwater. It's short and wide and made for a couple small adults or one adult and a kid. It really is a perfect solo canoe for me too. At 56#, I can carry it easily. It is well balanced and paddles easily. I haven't used a lot of canoes but for lighter loads, this is the one for me. It got a lot of time out on the water this weekend at the lake. (http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2010-Pictures/oldtown01.jpg)
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If you are thinkng about making your own, check out the forum at http://www.southernpaddler.com
I have been watching this site for quite a while trying to soak up knowledge in case I ever have a shed large enough to build a canoe of my own. Good Luck.
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CJ, I an a furniture maker and wooden boat maker and I would recommend a guide boat that you made yourself. The cedar might feel like noodles when your are working with and epoxy and glass are messy but boy the feeling you get from making your own. The guide boat is a bit heavier than a canoe but stable and easy mover, will take many water conditions and haul one heck of a load, lap some 8 oz glass on the bottom and you have one tough boat as well. Newfoundland boat works sells kits and plans as do a good many other shops. You can look up "Wooden Boat" too. The guide boat will also paddle well (with a sneak paddle). I would rather lug a 100#s of boat around that will get me there and back and carry what ever I am lucky enough to bag too and my tent my pack my other stuff and what ever else I think I need, no matter what if you got the room try building a boat or canoe for yourself, just as mentioned, wide across the middle seats close to the bottom and long, 16' plus, sharp ends, good rugged stems and keels. Well some much for my two cents. All the best to you, Joe
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I've had 3 & loved each. The last was a 17' widebody Grumman aluminum about 70#. It was great for hauling everything but the kitchen sink. My favorite was a Quichita 17' aluminum not as wide. Sleek through the water and much easier to manuever by yourself. I'm looking for another used Quachita now because I hunt mostly alone. I like a longer canoe for stability & weight displacement.
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The weight of the boat has always been my biggest concern. What I have hunted from for the past 15 years are Polk Boats. These are a kayack style boat that in fiberglass weigh 28lbs and in kevlar 22 lbs. At 12 feet long you can get your stuff in the boat and carry it to where you need to go. The lightest canoe I have found are the fiberglass ones made by Great Canadian.
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Canoes and bowhunting go together like like peanut butter and jam.
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Buck-in-canoe.jpg)
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Yew_canoe.jpg)
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Armstrong%20Creek%20Buck.jpg)
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IF YOU ARE A BIG MAN HUNTING ALONE AND THE DEER IN THERE WITH YOU . I HAVE HAVE BEST LUCK WITH AN OLD 17 FOOT GRUMMAN. ABOUT 250. OR 300 DOLLARS USED. 17 FOOT IS NOT AS TIPPY AS 12 OR 15 FOR THE BIGGER MAN.THE 17 FOOTER IS ABOUT 68 POUNDS.
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old town tripper used it for duck hunting fishing trapping very stable
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I have this one and hope to take it hunting this fall:
http://www.allycanoes.com/ally611.htm
It is pricey, but packable and thus easy to portage. Good up to wildwater III. It is a little harder to paddle straight, but great to manoever...
And it can take a hefty load of 680 lbs but only weighs 40 lbs.
Paddling it alone gives me a 500 lbs. additional load.
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I'm with Longbowsfox--I have owned a bunch of canoes made of all kinds of materials but as far as practical and bombproof, I'll take a Grumman. Mine is 15', weighs 55# and does everything a canoe needs to do reasonably well. It is not the speediest or the quietest (but there are ways around that)or for sure not the prettiest, but it didn't cost a fortune and it takes anything you throw at it and then gets up to do it again with little fuss.
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Im lookin' into the Sportspal by Castlecraft. It has the option of foam seats to put in the bottom, which I would like 'cause I waterfowl a lot. Good luck this season with whatever you decide on !!
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I am on the lookout for an old canoe:
I am wanting in this order:
1.) Mad Town Explorer
2.) Old Town Tripper
3.) a grumman double ender
The mad river and old town are much better paddler, but the grumman is indestructable...
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i would check out local canoe rental places and buy a used one to make sure you like it and the hunting area is what you thought it would be. That is where mine come from. $50. cant beat that.
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In addition to my Old Town, I have and old Mohawk canoe. Smooth bottom (no keel), oil cans like you wouldn't believe. Great initial stability, very good secondary stability. It's length is around seventeen feet. It is really good for two paddelers, awesome for one. Sharp entry and quick responsive. Put a load in it and it turns into a different boat. Doggy on the flip and won't track worth a darn.
A good traveling canoe doesn't really make a good cargo/packing canoe. Similar to the difference in tug boats and speed boats.
Tripper canoes are a careful balance between both and perform best when longer than 18 feet, better at 20 feet (my experience anyway). As has been said, some rocker is good, but too much and the boat can be unresponsive loaded down or even lightly loaded but unbalanced. Tumblehome (wider at the waterline than at the gunwales) is good for initial stability, but will decrease secondary stability when the canoe is loaded down.
No one canoe will do everything. The boat to run class III rapids can get you hurt when loaded with Moose quarters on calm water.
Shoot the gap. Find the best compramise of qualities and error on the side of stability and durability; don't worry about the weight of the boat. Canoe wagons and portage carriers are easy to build. With them, you don't even have to unload to transport.
Of course all of this is my opinion and based on my personal experiences. I am not a whitewater guy. I have run a few rivers but not any that would count as anything above Class I. I hunt and fish out of my canoes and have boats for this purpose. I have built several stitch and glue type and had a blast doing it. I'm not sure building one is really any cheaper than buying one out-right. I do think building versus buying, you can get a better boat for the same money. Besides, it is a lot of fun if you are a woodworking kind of fella.
A lot of the fun of a boat is picking one out. Here are some photos and a link to what I think is my next project.
Butler Products Freight Canoe (http://www.butlerprojects.com/boats/freightcanoe/index.htm)
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/OkKeith/freightcanoe1.jpg) (http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m150/OkKeith/freightcanoe2.jpg)
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Another vote here for the uncle johns pirogue as long as your waters are fairly calm and flat.
(http://cdn-2-service.phanfare.com/images/external/2655273_4120555_79509561_Web_3/0_0_b8423ac7789f3485b4d8eaa007756cb7_1)
Like stated before. Tons of great info on building small boats on southernpaddler.com Good group of guys too! :D
Jem watercraft is another good source of info and plans if your interested in building.
Or you can go hog wild and build something like this! LOL
(http://cdn-2-service.phanfare.com/images/external/2655273_1429803_12570333_Web_3/0_0_31776fb50becf9e68cb442f6aab448bf_1)
18 feet of speedy with enough capacity to haul a months worth of gear.
Good luck with whatever you decide. Canoes and small boats go hand in hand with traditional. And they are just plain fun all by themselves!
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I'm really digging all the photos and you guys have certainly gotten my wheels turning!
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They come in all sizes. That's me in the 12 foot wood and canvas canoe alongside the 26' North canoe.
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Lake_trip15.jpg)
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Nothing like some good canoe/guide boat/piroque porn to get the juices flowing here!
pavan knows whereof he speaks here -- pay close attention. My two cents for hull material: Royalex, then Royalex, then Royalex (aka ABS, aka Oltonar in some older Old Town boats). This is a sandwich of vinyl and foam. Very tough, very quiet, warm on cold water, needs virtually no maintenance, and "relatively" light compared to everything else but Kevlar and carbon composites. Aluminum is inexpensive, "relatively" heavy, and so noisy as to ensure the survival of most cervids for twenty miles. Kevlar is light, tough, and very pricey. Fiberglass is heavy, tough, and relatively inexpensive. Polyethylene is what you buy when the budget won't allow anything else.
Hull shape is a thing to be understood after some experience. Find a canoe person (someone who won't stop talking about them) and buy him/her a case of beer or whatever else is required to enlist personal help in shopping for a boat. Failing that (or to supplement it), take a look at Choosing the Right Canoe -- Shape Matters (http://www.paddling.net/guidelines/showArticle.html?58) and Fishing/Sporting Canoes (http://www.paddling.net/fishing-canoes.html) .
There are bargains to be had on Craigslist all over the country from people who are divorcing, or who have too many boats and need to cull the fleet to avoid a divorce . . .
And feel free to send me a PM at any time. I grew up paddling and I sold canoes and kayaks for several years.
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someone mentioned a Sportspal earlier. I have owned, hunted and fished out of both Sportspals and Raddisons - both very similar. Wide, flat bottom - 13 ' - foam lined aluminum. less than 40 lbs. For short paddles into your favorite honey hole - i recommend them.
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I got a cheap old town from Bass Pro and have had it up and down the Ocmulgee River here in south Ga.Its a whole lotta fun. I`m planning a 3 day hunt in August for pigs squirrels and fish. I`ll let you know how it turns out.RC
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One thing. Everyone that I have ever taken on a canoe trip that thought that learning the proper way to paddle a canoe was beneath them, found out differently on the first lake. there is a refined technique to it just as there is in shooting a longbow. there is no point in thinking you can reinvent that wheel, learn from the past masters and make it safer and more enjoyable. Get Path of the Paddle dvd by Bill Mason. I think that I will need to take a second Boundary waters trip this year, all this has made me miss the my canoe and the peaceful quiet of the wilderness.
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Get a pirogue, won't cost you but about $360 and you can take it ANYWHERE
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Originally posted by pavan:
One thing. Everyone that I have ever taken on a canoe trip that thought that learning the proper way to paddle a canoe was beneath them,...
Thats a great point. Learning a good J stroke is most important. (its not a "pry" stroke) You will be glad you did. Just turn the thumb of your top hand down toward the water as you pull through your stroke. For stalking/stealth you can amend this stroke and leave the blade in the water on its return forward, thus being super quiet.
Another good one is a draw stroke. Easy to learn and useful.
Joshua
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I have an old aluminum Quachita (12 footer) that I grew up in and have used for fishing, carping, hunting and just floating around.
That said, for the hunting I do by water I find the canoe stays under the porch and I use my 8 ft plastic "bass boat" - you know, the green pontoon like boat with removable swivel seats - and a trolling motor. The plastic boat (bought for my wife and I to fish out of for $300 at Gander Mt) is much quieter, only a bit heavier, easier to work in the dark (I'll take the trolling motor over the paddle any day) and more versatile for what I do - lake access, strip mine pit access, etc. You don't have the "romance" of the canoe, tho - (and don't have to worry about your un-canoe savvy buddy rolling you either :) )
Definitely no good for white water LOL, but for smooth water, relatively short portages (dragging it) the plastic boat is great.
I've had myself and a buddy in this boat (about 500 lbs of beef) along with a marine trolling motor battery and hunting gear - not much freeboard left - and we'd have to put the life vests on the deer and float it - but it worked out ok.
R
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Eidsvolling hit the nail on the head. Find a local canoe nut and go paddling with them. They will be able to demonstrate the pros and cons of different hull designs. There are no bad designs all have one place were they excel. Others are more versatile. I have 2 Souris River canoes a Wilderness 18 and a Quetico 17. Both are great canoes. If am taking the wife out we take the 17 because she is not as strong of paddler and this one handles better with no load. If I am paddling with my son we take the 18. We have paddled into 2 to 2 1/2 foot waves in Canada with around 600 lbs in the canoe counting paddlers and gear. We got no more than a quart of water in the canoe. I would not recommend this for first time paddlers. The point is that good hull designs can haul large loads in ruff water. Try as many canoes as you can before buying. Do not be surprised this turns into another search for the perfect canoe similar to the search for the perfect bow.
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The most versitile canoe I've paddled.........
http://www.bellcanoe.com/products/default.asp?page=product&id=594&catid=194
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I have an old Tracker River King, but the center support rotted out on one side where it bolts to the side. Anyone know where to buy parts? ThanksGeorge
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scbowhunter, you never stated if you will be doing this solo or with a front seat paddler. It is possible to get a canoe all the way from ely, mn. the dealers up there pay travelers to deliver canoes for them. however, you need to know what you are buying, first. I have the first Seliga delivered from Bell, the original seliga design, I think it can do more than the Morning Star, the Morning star can solo nice with a change in the seating. The Souris rivers are tough and stable, but the 17 needs to have a seat added for solo work with a long kayak paddle. My daughters 18.5' Quetico SR is a super canoe, will haul two people and a moose. The 16' is good up to about 600 pounds, and makes a good solo and passes pretty well for two modest sized adults and some gear. Redrock outfitters, Ely is great web site to explore.
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Google Riverhawk. It might stretch the meaning of canoe but you can do everything out of one. Check out the B52. Impossible to turn over and goes anywhere.
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One thing I saw at Cabelas really piqued my interest, but more for bowfishing.
Link (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/product/standard-item.jsp?_DARGS=/cabelas/en/common/catalog/item-link.jsp_A&_DAV=MainCatcat21276-cat601236-cat21342&id=0076226020882a&navCount=15&podId=0076226&parentId=cat21342&masterpathid=&navAction=push&catalogCode=IA&rid=&parentType=index&indexId=cat601233&hasJS=true)
If anyone has any experience with this please chime in.
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Looking at Ron LaClair's pics makes me want to try a canoe hunt. :campfire:
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I bought a used Mad River Duck Hunter last year off Craigslist. It's based on the Explorer shell, but has dark interior. It's a great do-it-all type of canoe. It doesn't excel in any one area, but I've found it to be a great compromise.
Where in SC are you?
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David,
Holy... ? What the heck is that thing? I've never seen anything like that. Looks interesting though.
OkKeith
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the Morning star can solo nice with a change in the seating.
I put in a kneeling pad and lean back against the rear thwart for a solo ride, but most of my hunts are only around 2 miles round trip. If I have a load up front, say treestands and such, from the rear seat works great.
The damn thing always seems to ride best with a deer up front though. ;)
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I also use a Wenonah Vagabond for my solo excursions. It's a smaller canoe, with barely enough capacity for both me and a deer, but it sure is nice getting around in when I want to pack light and go quick.
If you really get to looking at canoes.....you realize you have to make trade offs to get what ya want.
I think the best advise someone can give is........go somewhere you can paddle a bunch of different models. Like bows, canoes can be a tricky pick.
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There's just something about an authentic birch bark canoe that puts you in touch with hunters of long ago....especially if your hunting with primitive bows and arrows. :archer:
(http://www.shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/Birch_Bark_hunters.jpg)
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Did the pirogue thing from uncle mikes and they work great. I did the kit but now I have a table saw and would start from scratch with their plans. They do 10 inch sides but I woul ddo 12 inch. Thinking about 12'/12" sides for the next one. Last one was 14'/10" sides.
They do work great. I have a book on how to build a kevlar coanoe which is a project for next summer - gotta get a 23 foot carolina custom out the shop first!
J
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Mongoose check this web site they should be able to help you out. I have delt with them. Ted and Vi are great people they well help you out.
http://www.springcreek.com/a/j/