Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Grey Taylor on August 04, 2010, 05:58:00 PM
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We all know that the nock on a wood arrow should be installed so the bowstring is perpindicular to the wood shaft's grain.
Many of us also orient the shaft so the grain rifts on the top of the shaft are pointed toward the point of the arrow. The theory of this is that if the shaft were to shatter on release the back of the arrow should deflect up and away from the archer's hand holding the bow.
Personally, all the arrows I make are done in this manner, for uniformity if nothing else.
Here's my question:
Does it really matter?
Has anyone actually experienced a wood shaft shattering where the rear end deflected up, or down, in line with how the rifts pointed?
It makes sense to stand there and look at a solid shaft and say, "this will happen." But has that been backed up with practical experience and splinters in the air?
Thanks, Guy
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I have shot wood for 30 years an never gave much thought to how the grain was pointed. I just made sure that the grain was right with the string. Never had an arrow blow up during a shot.Something to ponder.
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Have always heard that rifts on top as well pointing away. Even reading old magazines and books,rift on top pointing away, but have been told by someone who is well known it does not matter. Does it??????? Not sure but I have never seen one split that way and really do not want to take any chances. This will be a good thread. Flint
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Grey, in addition to what you do, I also put the straightest grain on the nock end of the arrow. If there's any tendency toward grain run out or bend in the shaft, I put that end toward the point. Much easier to straighten there. Otherwise, one ends up mashing feathers straightening the arrow if the arrow has a bend toward the nock end. Straighter grain there is also less likely to break than grain that runs out or near the edge.
To my recollection, I've never had a shaft break because of bad grain, shaft too light for the bow, etc., but I hand select all my shafts and have been doing so for more than 30 years so there is virtually no grain run out on my shafts/arrows.
Until Compton's this summer, I could say that I've never had a wooden shaft break on the bow, but I broke one there. Pretty sure I shot a cracked arrow, one I glanced off a target two or three shots earlier and forgot to check before putting it back in my quiver. Noticed that it was quite bowed in my peripheral vision, but shot it anyway. Bad decision. Don't know where the front half of that arrow ended up. The back half landed about 5 yards to my right and front. One piece or the other gave me a good welt, which turned into a sizable black and blue spot, on the inside of my bow arm bicep.
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I just cut my nocks 90Deg's of the grain. So far I have never had an arrow brake, other then hitting something very hard or hitting it the wrong way ( side ) or if I'm trying to Robin hood a arrow.
I also wrap the nock just under the cut (throat). My shafts are 11/32" end to end no taper.
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I've always heard the same thing. Perpendicular and run out on top.
At one time I took it one step further.
If you spine test an arrow, you will find a weak spine side and a strong side. In between you will find varying degrees of deflection. I figured a fella could fine tune his arrows by orienting the nock so that the exact right spine is towards the bow. You have to ignore the grain to do this.
Honestly, I'm not a good enough shot to tell the difference and I was a little nervous about changing the orientation of the grain precisely because it gets everyone says to go 90 degrees out.
Maybe one of you all would want to mess around with this but you'd have to be a better shot than I am... Well, okay, that's not gonna be hard :rolleyes:
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I always use four fletch so I don't worry about it. The reason I use four fletch is I don't have to think about nock orientation on the string when I go to shoot. I get more wear out of my feathers that way. Gary
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My wife had an arrow break on release during high school gym class. The shaft entered her hand between thumb and first finger and exited near her first finger knuckle. It was thru the skin, but caused no serious damage like it could have.
ChuckC
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It's probably not necessary and a waste of
time to take a few minutes to orient the rifts correctly....
Until something breaks, then one has to deal
with a possible serious injury and maybe
even permanent nerve damage.
I do follow the suggested practice of proper rift orientation,
I figure it's a cheap insurance policy.
It also means there's left-handed and right-handed arrows, oh no! :scared:
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Dave there usually is a 1#-3# difference in spine as the shaft is rotated, sometimes more, depending on the wood. I know some folks do rotate the shaft to get a tad better spine match. I've always felt it was more important/safer to orient the grain 90 degrees to the string/bow. Wood is very forgiving material and no one I know can detect/shoot a 3# difference. Better to be safe IMO.
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Some say it matters and some say it doesn't. I know it matters to me. I hand spine all my shafts to the rift and align the nocks the same.
The "doesn't matter" group may be right, bit I don't want to find out they are wrong!
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Can someone post a pic of this orientation????
I was told to align the nock where the grain began to "feather". I hope this is the same thing.
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Thank you to everyone who has responded. This has been on my mind for awhile and it's good to see what others think of it.
Fletcher, that's pretty much what I think. It may not matter, but I don't want to find out it does in the midst of splinters flying.
Old York, I've seen people mildly chastised for asking about left and right handed arrows but with this subject, it really does matter.
Sagebrush, you bring up a very interesting bit of information: with a four fletched arrow it will be nocked both "right" and "wrong" on a shot to shot basis.
I don't think we've made any definitive determinations here but I've sure enjoyed seeing what others thik on this.
Guy
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LimbLover, here's a picture of what we're talking about. Those "points" are the rifts where the grain is running off the shaft. The theory is that they should be on top of the arrow pointing to the tip.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v177/GreyTaylor/build6f.jpg)
Guy
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I also build all of my arrows with that exact same grain orientation. Seems like the right way to make the arrow. Everything the same.
I don't think it matters at all.
Years ago, I wanted to check this theory out. I went out to the barn, and shot a whole bunch of arrows into the block wall of the barn.
I wanted to see if I could get an arrow to shear on the grain line, never did.
If they have internal stress fractures they will shear on the grain line, but hopefully you have discovered that problem, before you made the arrow.
Jerry; I picked up a nice 14' Larson wood/canvas boat last week, she will be a beauty.
Jim
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GAH...he explained it right but I became confused with cock and hen feather. He meant to align my top feather on the "points". I put the points on the INSIDE of the arrow facing me.
Sadly I had to waste some nocks but oh well. Probably would have been fine but I'm paranoid like that.
Thanks guys!
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Grey: I mentioned before that I've been hand picking my shafts for a good number of years now. Most of those shafts have no grain run out at all, so I usually don't have to worry about orienting the rift. To the extent that some do, it's in the final six inches of the end I face toward the point. Still conscious of the rift orientation, but it probably doesn't make much difference on on shafts with grain that straight. I realize, of course, that most of the shafts available today don't have those good grain qualities.
Jim: Nice find. You'll enjoy it. I sold a 14-foot Penn Yan to a buddy of mine a few years back when my garage got full. Fortunately, I still have access to it when I need a fix.
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Orion, in an ideal world we'd all be working with shafts like that. I'm envious that you're able to find enough to suit your needs.
But, the world is what it is and we've got to make do with what we can get.
Guy
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Here is a picture of the correct rift alignment from T.J. Conrads book.
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj20/bowbender18/rift.jpg)
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I have never heard of a documented case of a wood arrow breaking on release unless it was already damaged.
So, the potential danger is only there if we don't bother to check our arrows when we pull them or retrieve them.
The nock orientation idea came about with self nocks when the string could split the shaft if oriented parallel to the growth rings. With plastic nocks, it is really irrelevant.
Jim
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I think jim is right. I still do the rif up and away though.
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Rick, thank you very much for posting that picture. It's a lot better than the one I put up.
Jim, the nock being perpendicular to the grain is not in question. That's well documented.
What we're wondering about is how the grain run out rifts point, as per the picture R. Combs put up.
Is it necessary for them to be on top of the shaft pointing to the tip of the arrow?
Is it an archery legend to orient them that way?
We've all heard it should be done that way, but does practical evidence show arrows breaking in a manner that the rifts matter?
So far it's looking like an archery legend. Especially with how 4 fletch arrows are nocked, they could go either way (!).
I know I'll keep making arrows this way for the sake of uniformity, if nothing else.
Guy
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Originally posted by R. Combs:
Here is a picture of the correct rift alignment from T.J. Conrads book.
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj20/bowbender18/rift.jpg)
let's bring this up top again.
i don't intentionally line the 'rift' or 'grain feather points' in the direction of the bow hand. if the shaft blows on release, and those little daggers separate from the shaft and are flying in the direction of the bow hand/wrist. i flip 'em around and point them towards the nock end.
ymmv.
(http://www.tradgang.com/rob/woodies/wxx.jpg)
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I broke a wood arrow on release as a teenager. I over-drew and the tip was on the belly of the riser when I released. I thought the bow exploded. Scratched the bow and trashed the arrow but no other harm.
I also drove a fletching into my hand for an inch under the skin about 1/4" deep shooting a shelfless longbow. Still have a scar there 35+ years later. MAN that hurt and was worse trying to get it out. I learned why there is thread whipping on the leading edge of the fletching of old arrows.
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Rob - So let me try to get this straight... You're saying the opposite of what they were saying earlier in the thread???
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<<<<<<<<<<< on the top of the shaft, towards the point.
>>>>>>>>>>> on the bottom of the shaft, towards the nock.
So if the shaft breaks, the points are not pointing down and forward towards your hand...
Just how I was taught......
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Originally posted by Zbone:
Rob - So let me try to get this straight... You're saying the opposite of what they were saying earlier in the thread???
yes.
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Originally posted by DesertDude:
<<<<<<<<<<< on the top of the shaft, towards the point.
>>>>>>>>>>> on the bottom of the shaft, towards the nock.
So if the shaft breaks, the points are not pointing down and forward towards your hand...
Just how I was taught......
hmmmm. lemme clarify my opinion - if the both the top and bottom 'feathers' point in one direction, i'll make them all face/point toward the nock end.
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It's been a number of years since I shot wooden arrows a lot. My squirrel arrows are Ramin, to which this doesn't apply.
Back when I did make and shoot a lot of woods (thousands in my time) I don't remember ever having to deal with "run out". A truly great wooden shaft shouldn't have the little pointy ends of the grain.
I've had a couple of arrows break coming out of really heavy bows and it's a pretty traumatic event even if you aren't left with a piece of shaft run through your bow arm and or hand.
The first happened when I bought a very light and fairly stiff (I thought) dime store arrow. I put it in my quiver and while out roaming one day I pulled it out to see how far I could shoot it.
The bow was a little 58" beauty made by Earl Hoyt. That Pro Hunter was 69# @ 28" and I was stretching it back to almost 31".
It jumped to a solid 83# @ 31". Talk about stacking!
I came to a solid anchor and let the arrow go at about a 45 degree angle down range.
There was a moment when the pungent smell of cedar was in the air and what seemed like 30 pieces of it exploding in the air around my bow hand.
Slowly the realization of what had happened sunk in and I could feel a throbbing in my wrist. A large red welt slowly appeared and as the pain increased my bow hand opened involuntarily and I dropped the little bow to the ground.
Further up my arm, slightly above my arm-guard, a deep scratch bled from where the metal nocking point on the (basically) dry fired bowstring had made contact.
Apparently a piece of shaft had slapped my wrist in passing. Had it been point first there'd have been more problems.
I couldn't find enough of that little arrow to tell much about how it broke. I just vowed to never do a dumb thing like that again.
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My vote grain orientation to bow yes. Rift orientation doesnt matter. I make my own shafts from boards. Some have run-off I am sure others would maybe find excessive but none have broken on me. I have found that once a shaft makes it through the doweling process and several flexing and spine tests it holds up just find. Doesnt mean I havent had a shaft or two break on release. But normally it is a self-nock, or a damaged arrow I should have noticed before I shot.
On another note the only shaft I have seen break and driven into someones hand on release was a carbon arrow from a recurve bow. I am sure it was a damaged shaft and should not have been shot. That was one of the most painful looking injuries I have seen.
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I've never seen it happen, but why take chances? It's really important to check your arrows after shooting them each time. I was taught to slap the arrow on my thigh before nocking it when target shooting, to detect cracks that could break on the shot. A cracked arrow sounds different from a sound one when slapped.
The tendency to separate on the grain varies with species. Those species with an abrupt transition between the light colored portions of the growth ring and the dark portions are more likely to separate between the layers. I pay attention to the rift on these species, but I don't with more homogeneous woods like yellow poplar.
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I always align the nocks like Fletcher said. I am pretty rough on arrows with a lot of stunp shooting so I check them for cracks quit often. That little thump on the thigh or giving the shaft a little bend to in two directions to check them.