Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Zradix on August 05, 2010, 10:53:00 PM
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Hello Everyone!!
Long story short.. I ordered a custom bow in Jan.
Received one that was a bit of a lemon in June (scheduled for April, was cutting string, Tillered wrong etc)
Bowyer built another ( wouldn't refund )
Supposed to be done mid July.
Is nice enough to send me the bow to "test" before he finishes it...Why not he won't be back from a family trouble trip till Aug 19th.
Anyway, What would you say if you asked for a grip like this and sent these pics to the bowyer to copy...
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/New%20bow/Gripleftcopy.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/New%20bow/griprightcopy.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/New%20bow/Gripfrontcopy.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/New%20bow/Backofgripcopy.jpg)
And the bowyer sent you these next pics as a preview of what's in the mail......
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/New%20bow/NEWBOWLEFTcopy.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/New%20bow/NEWBOWBACKcopy.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/New%20bow/NEWBOWFRONTcopy.jpg)
Now I'll try it with an open mind.
But jeesh, I specifically told the guy I didn't want the extra layer on the back and the thickness of the throat of the grip from back to belly was important...That's why I put in dimensions.
Normally I'd be a little more quick to refuse.
But trying to get this guy to do anything like I ask seems to be like :deadhorse:
In all fairness I knew that the front of the grip would have to be different on the new bow just because of the inherent differences between the riser styles of the two bows. But I KNOW it didn't need the extra layer on the back since he sells the bow without and charges more to put them on. Bowyer told me he took "artistic license with it. " And said " The riser is SPOT ON to the pics you sent. It was the hardest build I think I have ever done – bar none."
Anyway what are your thoughts???
Thank you!
By the way.. The first bow with the sights isn't mine lol. It's my buddy's and I just like the grip.
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Two thoughts:
1.) You should get what you asked (and therefore paid) for.
2.) You have to be a little flexible with a bowyer and see if they have a valid reason for departing from what you said. BUT! They should run it by you first.
Just my two buckskins...
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you should get what you paid for.if the guy couldn't do it or it was a bad idea,he should of been upfront with you.he can always refuse to do it,if he thinks it's a bad idea.bows cost alot of money and i think you should be happy with what you paid for.hope it all works out for you,steve
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That's a pretty distinctive looking riser. Is that a "standard" model for this bowyer? If it is, then asking for 'your' grip on that style of bow may be a bit of a stretch... On the other hand, if the bowyer had the information up front on what you wanted, and said he could do it, then you are definately NOT getting what you paid for.
No offense to you OR the bowyer, but was your grip request made and agreed upon before the bow was started?
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Originally posted by Curtis Haden:
No offense to you OR the bowyer, but was your grip request made and agreed upon before the bow was started?
For the first bow, I sent a photoshoped pic of one of his bows shown below
I sent this pic before work was started.
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Greensythianwithsmallsharkgripnofin.jpg)
And this is what I received the first time around...
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Grip.jpg)
When he told me he would build another I took pics of a bow that had a grip I liked and put dimensions on the pics so he could have a better idea of what I was looking for.
Once he got the pics we talked. He said "No Prob"
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Refuse the bow & sue for your money to be refunded.
Sorry to sound harsh, but knowing this particular 'bowyer's' reputation & after reading the many threads on here about his complete & utter lack of skill, communication, customer service & ability to do anything he promises, I honestly think it'll be the only way you'll ever be 100% satisfied.
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Anyone who knew his craft would be able to pull off the riser you requested, especially with all the pictures you sent. For you to get a riser that wasn't to your liking at first and then have you go through it again - especially after his "no prob" guarantee - is ridiculous! I'm leaning towards Rob's advice.
(PS: I'm shopping around for bows right now. Can someone PM the name of this bowyer so I know to avoid them?)
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It's funny.
After he started he admitted that it was harder than he thought it would be.
Said that grip design I wanted was "really Radical"
It's a Martin Rebel for gosh sakes!!!
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After reading more, I think my first point is the only valid one:
You should get what you asked and paid for. If not, your money should be refunded.
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id be demanding a refund !!! and if not , small claims court is the unfortunately the way to go.
my two cents if you cant/ wont do the job required than dont take on the job . his buit about hoow hard it was sound s like bs to me you provided demensions there is no reason for them not to be followed . if the socalled boyer wasnt comfortable with them than he should have said that from the start.
my 2 cents. :knothead:
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Can someone please PM me the guys name so I can put him in my book of "DON'T USE THEM".
Thank you for your time.
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Originally posted by robtattoo:
Refuse the bow & sue for your money to be refunded.
Sorry to sound harsh, but knowing this particular 'bowyer's' reputation & after reading the many threads on here about his complete & utter lack of skill, communication, customer service & ability to do anything he promises, I honestly think it'll be the only way you'll ever be 100% satisfied.
What Rob said!
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From what I`ve seen in other places you are in a near hopeless situtation. Be thankful you have "that" bow.
A public apology was made by the guy and his first step was a success but I would really think hard before I sent the bow back. specially if I knew someone with skills to get it about where I want it.RC
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It looks to me that you are asking him to totally redesign his bow for your grip. You are asking for a straight grip and with his bow design, to me it just doesn't fit.
Actually the one picture looks to me that he made a pretty good try at filling your requirements without sacrificing his bow design.
Quite honestly I feel sorry for a boyer having to try and work off the info you gave him.
What's with the dollar bill, don't you have a ruler to put in the picture?
All that being said if I was the boyer, I would not have taken the order,and been up front with it.
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Earl, your last statement said it all! If the bowyer could not do what the person wanted than he should decline. Zradrix, if you paid for it with a credit card, call the card company and file a protest. Usually they can apply great pressure on the offending party to make them do right.
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Originally posted by Earl E. Nov...mber:
What's with the dollar bill, don't you have a ruler to put in the picture?
All that being said if I was the boyer, I would not have taken the order,and been up front with it.
Nope didn't have a ruler at the time.
Went to another person's home whom I had never met to take the pics.
They were trying to sell the bow in a yard sale for my buddy. They said they didn't have a ruler. "?!"
So the dollar bill was the best thing I could think of. Hadn't thought about bringing a ruler with me for scaling the pics.
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Earl...What picture? "Actually the one picture looks to me that he made a pretty good try at filling your requirements without sacrificing his bow design."
Thanks
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Sometimes it is best to research bowyers as much as bows themselves.
I am sorry for your troubles but hope people can learn from this. I cannot see pics at work but personally, if the guy isn't willing to refund the money for your returned bow, I would try to sell it and get what you can at a small loss and get on with life with a valuable lesson learned.
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Just like others have said, if both parties agreed on something from the start, then that is what you should get. I hope you the best in getting what you want or getting a refund.
Dax
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"...I specifically told the guy I didn't want the extra layer on the back and the thickness of the throat of the grip from back to belly was important...That's why I put in dimensions...I KNOW it didn't need the extra layer on the back since he sells the bow without and charges more to put them on."
The additional piece of wood added to the belly side of the base bow could just have easily been shaped as requested as the triangle shape that the bowyer ADDS as an option. I would tell the bowyer I want a refund and if he refuses I would tell him his name and the story of the two bows, along with the grip shape you requested, with pictures, would be posted on every trad archery site on the internet. For a bowyer to remain in business good customer service is NOT an option.
Bill
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What do expect from Seigeworks? You were warned about him a long time ago. As far as selling the bow forget it. Nobody will buy one of his bows. The only one I know of that he actually delivered only lasted about 6 months before twisting all up is now unshootable. Get your money back, stop waisting your time with him.
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It's a ugly bow anyway....... send it back
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If the bowyer agreed to follow your specs and take your money he must do it or refund your money. Of course I would still be unhappy due to the build/wait time you've gone through.
If he won't you can threaten small claims court. I had to do this once to receive a bear rug that was 2 rears over due. I didn't have to file. I just researched the process and let him know I would do it. The rug showed up right away.
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Originally posted by joekeith:
What do expect from Seigeworks? You were warned about him a long time ago. As far as selling the bow forget it. Nobody will buy one of his bows. The only one I know of that he actually delivered only lasted about 6 months before twisting all up is now unshootable. Get your money back, stop waisting your time with him.
Brother I wish more people had spoke up about their problems just about 2 weeks sooner.
By the time the "bomb" sorta exploded with the place I had already ordered.... :banghead:
I would like nothing more than a refund. I don't see that happening.
Hey Joe Keith...What type of bow was the one that twisted up?
Thanks
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:rolleyes:
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Truth is you know you are not going to get your money back and if you send the bow back the chances are not high it will be done right or even done at all. Something about blood from a turnip comes to mind.
At this point the easiest thing for you to do is to take 2 hours of an evening and reshape the handle to exactly what you want. A couple of good files, sandpaper, steel wool and careful planning will allow you to fit it to your hand, as you wanted in the first place.
Is it right that you need to do this yourself? No. But if you want it done now it is the most expedient.
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Sure..I have thought about doing it myself.
As of right now the bow is not at weight.
Asked for low 40's it's over 50 and needs to be brought down.
I might still take it just to be done.
The finishing doesn't bother me.
It's the tuning/weight reduction that I'm not up to.
Makes me mad he had to add Wenge (which I didn't ask for) Just had to be a difficult wood to finish...lol
We'll just see after it arrives.
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Suck it up...lesson learned.
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I gotta agree with ChristopherO. You could send it back but the most likely result is you will have no bow and no money. I'd take the bird in the hand and work from there. Try to fit the grip to your specs and then decide if you want to finish it and sell or send it to someone that could reduce the weight. It is almost 100% assured you will not reach a resolution with the bowyer. Again, take it and run.
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If you settle now for it,any trouble later with it you will have to settle for it then to.
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Originally posted by Jedimaster:
I gotta agree with ChristopherO. You could send it back but the most likely result is you will have no bow and no money. I'd take the bird in the hand and work from there. Try to fit the grip to your specs and then decide if you want to finish it and sell or send it to someone that could reduce the weight. It is almost 100% assured you will not reach a resolution with the bowyer. Again, take it and run.
YES Master Yoda..lol I'll pass on what I have learned....
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It looks to me like you could just take about a quarter of an inch off the back of the grip and get the height of grip you want, but unfortunately it also looks like the bowyer already removed too much wood from the grip to get the palm swell and thumb rest to match the grip you desired. It really doesn't look like it should have been too hard to recreate.
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Yeah I didn't think it would've been that difficult either.... :rolleyes:
I can glue on some wood to the grip to get the swell. I just haven't made up my mind how much work I want to put into the darn thing.
My main concern is the draw weight.
That is the tricky thing to fix..
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Ship it back, pay the 20% restocking fee and call it good. And remember that you get what you pay for. Nobody can build a QUALITY laminated bow for under $300
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He will NOT refund. Says he just plain doesn't have the money.
At this point I'd be happy to take a $60 hit.
Gives me a line of "ship it back to me. I'll try to sell it as a used bow and whatever I get from it I'll send to you"...lol what a joke!
As someone mentioned before, I don't want to give back my "bird in the hand".
Especially BEFORE I get my money!..lol
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I have to admit that I laughed outloud after going through your pix. Its not even close! I would be ticked and demand my money back.
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Zradix,
Tell the "bowyer" you will ship that stick back to him, on receipt of your refund! :biglaugh:
Best of luck getting this solved, but I think you are in line for a long wait, or a court date.
Greg in Malad,
Check out Dryad Bows, and their bow blanks. Under 300, for the basic bow(s), and quality workmanship.
Also a great bunch to do business with.
R.W.
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If I had it to do all over again I'd be going with a Maddog.
Prob is my money is spent. I have no more to play with. Just a lesson learned I guess.
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R.W.
A bow blank is not a finished product, and yes they do quality work.
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"Nobody can build a QUALITY laminated bow for under $300"
Obviously you aren't familiar with Chek-Mate.
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Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
Suck it up...lesson learned.
Im new here but this is a pretty ignorant remark if you ask me...I'm sure he isn't talking about pennies here...custum bows cost alot but I guess if he had your money he could burn his eh? I wish I was rich and could just say "eh the heck with it lesson learned now let me whipe my behind with another hundred"
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Maybe...but next time I'll bet he does more research, gets references from guys who've had custom bows made before and sticks with a reputable bowyer.
He's already said as much. It's a tough break but there's not much he can do about it.
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Biggie
Problem is he was a new bowyer.
I took him at his word.
There were not a lot of reviews out there at the time I ordered. All that a read were positive except for a few people saying the final finish wasn't great.
I'm not a bow snob. I wanted a well built bow. If I had to sacrifice good looks to save a few hundred bucks so be it.
I gave the new guy a chance.
A few weeks after I ordered and paid the SHTF with the guy.
Lots of late or unshipped bows etc.
I did my research. I trusted a Man's word.
Really about the only thing learned here is "you win some you lose some"
I'm not happy about losing.
But I'll keep playing. I'll keep trusting people in general.
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Gnome, you are new here. You did not give your name for your profile, and I guess you think we can't figure out your presumed state.
Biggie has been here from the beginning, and has helped more folks, given more practical advice, and forgotten more about hunting than most of us will ever learn. He has a heart of gold and a generous nature. He is big enough to ignore your rudeness, but I am still a little small in the heart.
You are new here, so I will leave your kneecaps alone, for now.
Killdeer
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Jeez.. can't we all just get along?
I've seen Biggie be nice.
I've seen Biggie be not nice.
Just so happens this is the 2nd or third time he's had this type of remark on one of my threads.
I don't know..Maybe I've wronged the man in some way. I remember one of my very first posts on this site. Probably was some question that was :deadhorse: lol But anyway Biggie piped up with a bit of rude comment there. That was my first impression of the man. First impressions last.
The problem with typing a conversation is that there is no vocal tones or facial expressions.
You can't tell if someone is joking or semi serious...especially if you don't personally know them.
I think it's best to stay away from threats joking or not for the sake of civility.
my 2$
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I would assume...we all know what that does...That Salty Gnome is from New Jersey and Makes grape juice or possibly wine.
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Good call Killie, I still don't know who the bowyer is and why don't we want people to know? Maybe post in product review.
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Its crazy when things go wrong in an transaction...
people get their feelings hurt or were deceived from the start...I do beleive that the name of the bowyer should be made public... customer service is very important
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The bowyer is Dave Ruff. Siegework creations
I didn't start the post to bash the guy.
That has happened a lot on many sites over the last few months.
I was just hoping to get a better idea of what to do than I could come up with.
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Originally posted by joekeith:
What do expect from Seigeworks? You were warned about him a long time ago. As far as selling the bow forget it. Nobody will buy one of his bows. The only one I know of that he actually delivered only lasted about 6 months before twisting all up is now unshootable. Get your money back, stop waisting your time with him.
Page 2, I believe the bowyer was mentioned. :thumbsup:
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Sorry, you beat me to my last post.
Zradix, I don't neccessarily think that Biggies comment was that bad. Yeah, he was a new bowyer, and there wasn't a whole lot of reviews out there to read, so you took him for his word. But, from what I think I've read, you can't get your money back? So there's not that much that you can do is there? I mean, to me, the grip is nothing like you asked for, so it's not the bow you paid for. You could send it back to him to sell, but then your out a bow. I'd keep it, learn to shoot it if I could, or burn it if I couldn't. It's worth a shot I think. If you can't shoot it, then I think your just gonna have to take it in the shorts.
I'm just trying to look at the other side of this is all. Not trying to come across as being rude.
Thanks!
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That is about jist of it isn't it.
Anybody looking for a fixer upper????lol
Too bad the guy is in Texas. that's more than a stones throw from me in Michigan.
Time to make some lemonade as the saying goes.
Thanks all
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I don't believe Biggie was joking, or making threats.
You see, the problem is this- today, people don't want to be told the truth so much as they want to be told what they want to hear.
It makes them feel better.
Biggie told you the unvarnished truth.
You've already stated the guy told you he wasn't giving you your money back because he didn't have it.
You've already indicated that he doesn't have the skills to do what you need done, and there's not even enough wood left on the riser to build it the way you want it even if he did.
Biggie, and a few other people on here are like Simon Cowell (spelling?) the guy on American Idol (my daughter's favorite tv show) people think he's rude sometimes- but its not rudeness, its honesty.
If you want to hear what you'd like to hear, talk to yourself in the mirror. There's no constructive criticism or amount of sugar coated nonsense that's going to fix this- sometimes bad things happen to good people and there's no "FIX".
This is one of those times. Trying to get a custom-built bow for under 300 dollars was at best a pipe dream. Don't compound that by asking for advice and then not taking the best advice you got on the entire thread because you didn't like the responder's tone.
Think about it this way- a bowyer will have 100 dollars in materials in a bow. Then all his shop supplies, jigs, hotboxes, power equipment and hand tools, epoxy, air compressor, and a huge pile of other stuff that breaks down, wears out, and has to be used up on YOUR bow to get it done.
Add in 20-30 hours of hand time, especially for a new guy- at 10 bucks an hour he's already eliminated any real profit....he'd be better off going out and flip burgers and avoid all the hassle if that's all the money he wants to earn for all that hard work.
Suck it up- learn from the lesson- and make a better choice next time. That's my 2 cents as well.
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keep the bow .hang it on the wall an get on with life. lessons come to us in many differnt ways.yours come by bow! if the guy aint going to make it good or he cant then save your self the worrie!
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John, my comment was simply put, I thought, with no intent of being rude.
After reading your posts it just seemd to me there isn't much you can do about it.
I don't know how it could be construed as a rude comment. Maybe it's just me.
I hadn't realized I'd singled you out for rude comments either. Don't know why you feel you've 'wronged me" somehow. I'm hardest on the people I like....ask Marty!
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Yes you are! Simon Cowell of Trad Gang- now that is funny! But he looks like Randy!
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Great post Ray, from my perspective spot on.
Zradix, I'm sorry about your loss with this project. It's unfortunate when you believe you found a good deal and in turn it's hard earned money lost. Certainly it's a painful learning experience. Good luck in the future.
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This thing has been beat to death, here and other places. Thanks for saying it Biggie. If I like the bow a particular bowyer is making, I buy it and let him make it. I don't go and ask him to change his design for me. You get what you pay for :readit: ! Thanks Biggie!
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"Trying to get a custom-built bow for under 300 dollars was at best a pipe dream."
Not to hijack the thread (I think it's run it's course for the most part), but the above simply isn't true. Chek-Mate Falcon, custom built, $265. That doesn't include optional woods, it's not the tricked-out version, but it's an excellent bow, made to specs, and under $300.
It's rare, but it's not "impossible" and it's not a "pipe dream".
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I'll add that I agree with doing your homework--and that doesn't mean reading accolades on message boards. I have a friend who has nearly $1,000 invested in un-shootable junk that the bowyer will not warranty. He's gotten good press on most message boards, and sounded really good on the phone, but when the rubber met the road...well, I have the evidence in my shop.
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I'm also sorry things didn't go as either you or the bowyer planned.
Here is my advice to you. If it were me, I would at this point forgive him and thereby free myself. You have been stuck with this deal for a while now so if you let him off of the hook at this moment I think you'll find that you yourself are also off that same hook you've been stuck on. Nuff said!
Good luck and God bless
Trying to make a difference!
Mudd
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zardix, sorry to here about your customer service with your bow. i've only been on this site a little over a month and was diappionted to here some of the comments.it got totally away from the bow. (if you can't say something good,don't say nothing at all).how about some pm's? an offer to try and make it shootable for you? i would offer to to fix it for you, but you certainly don't want me working on it, i would surely mess it up ha! starting out new would have to be hard, with all the great bowyers. hopefully he has learned, and will make it good :nono:
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mudd i was typing my post while yours was going up. i'm with you brother, forgiveness is the key. the guy has made some mistakes,(haven't we all)most of us all don't know him or his personal situation. as a new bowyer, he has a few learning curves. he knows if he is gonna stay in this business he will have to correct some things. a sincere apology and ask some guys to help him would be good. there a lots of great guys here that would be happy to help him. i'll be honest if it happened to me i wouldn't be happy either.BUT- GOD can fix anything.