Post by: Pokerdaddy on August 28, 2010, 01:46:00 PM
Well, the salesman measured my draw at 27" and my bow at 40# @ 28". From what I've been researching, I thought I'd get some 1916's but he tells me I need 2117's @ 30". When I question him by quoting some suggestions I've received regarding arrows, he says trad guys (especially online posters) don't know what they need...also tells me I should be shooting nothing but carbon these days, aluminum is for losers is inferred.
After spending $160 on essential accessorjes, arrows, and a yellow jacket target, I left embarassed and humiliated. Everyone looking at me like the trad leper.
I wont be going back, but need suggestions for a Mid-
Michigan trad shop! My money needs to go to a business that appreciates trad archers. Oh, and am I screwed with these 2117's?
Post by: Eric Krewson on August 28, 2010, 01:55:00 PM
Post by: Apex Predator on August 28, 2010, 01:56:00 PM
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on August 28, 2010, 01:56:00 PM
Post by: rastaman on August 28, 2010, 01:58:00 PM
There is nothing wrong with aluminums but you are way overspined.
Don't be afraid to post questions on here. There are no stupid questions, and chances are, at some point in our journey we had the same experiences.
Welcome to Tradgang! :)
Post by: Spectre on August 28, 2010, 02:02:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Apex Predator:What he said. Heck, 2117's are totwotoo stiff for my flippin mid 50's bows!
Yep, me thinks you need to take the arrows back. 37@27 and gonna work with those 2117s. Prolly need some 1816s!
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on August 28, 2010, 02:04:00 PM
Post by: Blackstick on August 28, 2010, 02:09:00 PM
Post by: Looper on August 28, 2010, 02:16:00 PM
Then, call up on of the sponsors here and they'll get you set up correctly. I'd recommend you get a test kit of arrows. Wood, aluminum, carbon, it doesn't matter.
Don't rush things. You're at the start of a long and fulfilling journey.
Post by: Old York on August 28, 2010, 02:17:00 PM
I'd bet money on it that he didn't even have 1916's.
Post by: Pokerdaddy on August 28, 2010, 02:20:00 PM
I'm just not comfortable going back.
Post by: ronp on August 28, 2010, 02:22:00 PM
Post by: Spectre on August 28, 2010, 02:23:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Pokerdaddy:May I suggest, then, that you offer up the 2117's in trade in the classifieds?
Thanks for all the replies and encouragement. I really don't want to go back as it's 30 minutes each way. I'll order some arrows later today from 3Rivers or Kustom King, or other.
I'm just not comfortable going back.
Post by: Pokerdaddy on August 28, 2010, 02:32:00 PM
Post by: Spectre on August 28, 2010, 02:35:00 PM
Post by: Grey Taylor on August 28, 2010, 02:37:00 PM
Guy
Post by: PAPA BEAR on August 28, 2010, 02:49:00 PM
Post by: Uncle Buck on August 28, 2010, 02:54:00 PM
Post by: mrjsl on August 28, 2010, 02:59:00 PM
Post by: Warren Cowen on August 28, 2010, 02:59:00 PM
Post by: JRY309 on August 28, 2010, 03:02:00 PM
Post by: Pokerdaddy on August 28, 2010, 03:08:00 PM
Post by: JEFF B on August 28, 2010, 03:18:00 PM
Post by: David Mitchell on August 28, 2010, 03:34:00 PM
Post by: Chris Shelton on August 28, 2010, 03:37:00 PM
Advice above is great :)
Post by: Brian Krebs on August 28, 2010, 03:53:00 PM
Stores here in Idaho are not trad friendly at all. About 15 years ago I got yelled at for using a trad bow to hunt: with by an archery shop owner... and my youngest son had it happen to him the other day.
I make my purchases through the sponsors here- for the most part.
I say test kit because there are ten thousand discussions of what spine is best - so actually trying different ones and seeing how they work with your release and techniques are the best way to find the arrows your looking for.
I would start though with what other people here with your draw length and bow weight say you should use.
Don't worry this will all end up being fun :archer: :archer2:
Post by: Bjorn on August 28, 2010, 04:04:00 PM
The local guys know nothing about trad, and why should they? They don't get any trad customers.
Post by: Davt on August 28, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
Post by: WRV on August 28, 2010, 04:16:00 PM
Post by: Spectre on August 28, 2010, 04:28:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Brian Krebs:Yelled at!?!? Oh, dood, you are more of a man than I. Somebody might have got hurt over that nonsense.
I suggest a test kit -
Stores here in Idaho are not trad friendly at all. About 15 years ago I got yelled at for using a trad bow to hunt: with by an archery shop owner... and my youngest son had it happen to him the other day.
I make my purchases through the sponsors here- for the most part.
I say test kit because there are ten thousand discussions of what spine is best - so actually trying different ones and seeing how they work with your release and techniques are the best way to find the arrows your looking for.
I would start though with what other people here with your draw length and bow weight say you should use.
Don't worry this will all end up being fun :archer: :archer2:
Post by: Buckeye Trad Hunter on August 28, 2010, 04:28:00 PM
I don't have an archery shop anywhere near me but fortunatly the archery shop at the Gander Mountain that I go to is ran by a guy who shoots a Widow PSR. He let me shoot it once when I was in there. I was looking for some stuff and he asked why I needed that and then the stories began.
Post by: Zbearclaw on August 28, 2010, 04:30:00 PM
I have had to correct the numbnutt behind the counter a few times. If it isn't a nationwide type box store then I'd call the owner and tell him he got $160 of the only pennies he'll ever see from you and anyone else you talk to.
Many times the guy behind the counter knows nothing about any type of archery, let alone trad, and isn't mature enough to ask more questions nor have the testicular fortitude to say the ever impossible "I don't know but will find out".
Anytime someone utters the above to me I almost have a stroke I am so surprised. Most would rather lie than simply say, "sir I have no idea but if you give me a moment I will do my best to find out"...
Good luck, not all shops or compound guys are belittling to trad guys.
Post by: red hill on August 28, 2010, 05:11:00 PM
I understand your plight. There aren't any trad dealers around here that I know of. No one carries feathers, wooden shafts, or glue on points. The salesmen at the local archery shops don't have the time for me. I agree with the mail order/internet suggestions. Also, you may work out deals with some of the members on here.
Good luck,
Stan
Post by: Northern Whisper on August 28, 2010, 05:26:00 PM
I would then look for a trad shop, or if one is not available go online. If you need help send me a pm and I will gladly help.
Post by: Gordy on August 28, 2010, 06:01:00 PM
I have one not too far from me, they do dabble in trad gear, but the attitudes that go with a simple sale are hard to tolerate sometimes.
I'd like to patronize more often...really I would. But how do you tell someone who insists that they are better at cutting my shafts to length and gluing inserts, than I am, that they are mistaken ? When I said I my want to leave them longer for tuning....I think I lost em' ! ;)
"No gauranty's then" Huh ?
Never realized there were gauranty's on spine ! :biglaugh:
Plus, August/September are about the last two months you want to venture into that territory ! :)
Post by: ripforce56 on August 28, 2010, 06:11:00 PM
Post by: Bowwild on August 28, 2010, 06:12:00 PM
I cringe at the information some of these fellows pass out. There are far better experts working in basements and garages around this country than in most of these shops.
They probably look at a traditional guy as someone who is behind the times or so poorly heeled they can't afford a compound.
I shoot a 27.5" arrow out of 45-48 pound recurves -- Beeman MFX Classics in 600 spine and Easton 1916 Legacy shafts are what the doctor ordered for me -- broadheads and field points impact the same spot.
Thirty minutes wouldn't mean anything to me. I'd take a chart back and show the fellow how badly he screwed you over and demand a refund or replacement, properly sized shafts. I don't even ask these fellows for help. I just want to know where their nocks, inserts, etc. are and I'll help myself thank-you. The rub occurs when you ask for something they don't have... then they start the archery lesson that points you to inventory they'd like to move.
My apologies to any shop fellows that may be on this site that surely don't fit my description.
Post by: B/W lvr on August 28, 2010, 06:24:00 PM
Post by: Hookeye on August 28, 2010, 06:54:00 PM
If the sales guy consulted a recent distributor's catalog it would be an honest error.
I had a customer come in with a 45# recurve and the charts showed 2117 or 2216 and I told him forget that, go qwith 1816 or 1916.
He didn't want to believe me over the charts in the shop or those he saw online! I didn't try to push it, just explained I had similar bows and what worked well for me.
The conversation went to my current setup....and he was more receptive of my carbon arrow explanations. Mine shot well for him, so he had me build him a comparable set.
Stopped the talking, we went shooting, light bulbs came on, sales made.
Happy customer with proper gear that works well for him- proven before the sale (and after).
This, in a predominately compound shop.
Post by: Oliverstacy on August 28, 2010, 07:08:00 PM
My wife’s is from Saginaw so we need to get together and do some shooting when I'm up that way. Several good guys in this neck of the woods and many get events that are a ton of fun.
Send me a PM for what you need on the arrows if you don't take them back...I might need some 2117's.
The spine on them 2117's is .407 and I believe you need something around .600 or so which as you guess it close to the 1916's (.623 spine)! If you want some carbon’s there are a few that make 600’s and they’re tough shafts!
I find that with most archery shops you need to go in armed with good advice from this site and buy without asking them many questions!
Once you find an arrow that is spined right it is a thing of beauty as it arches to the target!
Josh
Post by: Hookeye on August 28, 2010, 07:08:00 PM
I know sales is sales, and the customer is your meal ticket.
But frankly, sometimes it's better to freakin' starve.
I have heard so much Bee Ess and junk science, outright lies and macho stupidity, on guns, ballistics, compounds and even recurves........it just makes it very tough sometimes to not whip out a judo point and thwap some jerk between the eyes.
Yeah, with those folks it won't do any good on their end, but man it would have made me feel better.
In defense of sales people........some customers just like being clueless or difficult. One of those can really test a retail person's character.
Maybe a jerk or jerks beat up the sales guy before our forum brother got there?
Not saying that the event was proper, but a one time experience may not be fully indicative of the shop or sales person.
Post by: Hookeye on August 28, 2010, 07:11:00 PM
Post by: Spectre on August 28, 2010, 07:29:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Hookeye:I would like to shake your hand.
FWIW the current aluminum charts do suggest way overspined shafts.
If the sales guy consulted a recent distributor's catalog it would be an honest error.
I had a customer come in with a 45# recurve and the charts showed 2117 or 2216 and I told him forget that, go qwith 1816 or 1916.
He didn't want to believe me over the charts in the shop or those he saw online! I didn't try to push it, just explained I had similar bows and what worked well for me.
The conversation went to my current setup....and he was more receptive of my carbon arrow explanations. Mine shot well for him, so he had me build him a comparable set.
Stopped the talking, we went shooting, light bulbs came on, sales made.
Happy customer with proper gear that works well for him- proven before the sale (and after).
This, in a predominately compound shop.
Post by: Bowwild on August 28, 2010, 07:34:00 PM
My only complaint is that the finish (wood grain) gets roughed up after slideing arrows along side each other -- of course these would be dents in aluminum or splits in some carbons.
Post by: KEG on August 28, 2010, 07:50:00 PM
Ken
Post by: Shawn Leonard on August 28, 2010, 08:04:00 PM
Post by: Pokerdaddy on August 28, 2010, 08:57:00 PM
Post by: ishoot4thrills on August 28, 2010, 09:06:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Grey Taylor:Yes, I think the rule about the minimum number of posts applies to selling/buying/trading bows, not arrows and such.
I am pretty sure that rule is only for the bow classifieds.
Guy
Post by: Tsalagi on August 28, 2010, 09:25:00 PM
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
One shop told me, "Nobody shoots wood arrows anymore!" I said, oh, is that right? So, many of the people I see in Traditional Bowhunter and all the people I see in Primitive Archer magazines aren't shooting wood arrows? No answer. It's like, look, I know you want to sell me carbon arrows and that's fine. But I already said I don't like them and don't shoot them. So why keep trying to hard sell me on them? I wanted to go check the sign again to see if I'd stumbled into a car dealership by mistake.
But, there was some sweet vicarious revenge. After Lord of the Rings came out, crowds of local teens were going in there and wasting the guy's time asking for "I want that bow like Legolas used in Lord of the Rings! NO! Not that thingie with wheels! He didn't shoot THAT! I want the bow Legolas shot!" And, gee, not that I SENT any of them in there looking for it... ;)
Post by: RAU on August 28, 2010, 10:00:00 PM
Post by: Tsalagi on August 28, 2010, 10:03:00 PM
EXACTLY!!! Thank you for saying that! That's why I let my "fingers do the walking"---and the buying, LOL!!!
Post by: COLongbow on August 28, 2010, 10:08:00 PM
Post by: dan d on August 28, 2010, 10:27:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ripforce56:I live in the thumb of Mich. and that is where I get a lot of my stuff from (wilderness Dreams) and I am very familiar with the shop in Bay City, they treat you great if you buy a $1,000 wheelie bow and spend another grand in accesorries, I haven't been there in years, last time I was there they didn't have nothing but high tech crap, probably don't even have much of a selection for aluminum arrows anymore. They do have a good business, because there are a lot of hunters who "have more money than brains" follow the advice of the forum members, it's the best resource we have !
If you get around Grand Rapids there is a Trad only store in Sand Lake called Wilderness Dreams
Post by: Big Riser on August 28, 2010, 10:29:00 PM
Post by: LAR43 on August 28, 2010, 10:34:00 PM
Larry
Post by: Hookeye on August 28, 2010, 10:55:00 PM
Either way, the shop then sits on the stuff, or sells it at cost, or less.
Ordering stuff "out of the norm" is expensive and risky for the general gun/bow shop owner.
You might be a decent guy, but that doesn't mean the 20-30 others that have special requests are.
Not saying stuff needs to sell fast, but it needs to move at a decent rate, to allow for flexible purchases based on general demand/seasonal changes.
Doesn't take much to strangle a small shop or one with tighter momentary expenses (like building expansion, increased market capture attempts etc.)
This stuff happens a lot, you try to be helpful and flexible, but in doing so you do get burned.
How much can one tolerate (process wise and cost)?
If one sets policies to minimize/avoid such loss, then most folks are going to consider the shop/personnel too "hard arse".
Again, you might have good intentions, be a great customer (or potential one) but it's the majority of others who set the tone for a shop.
Maybe the shop owners and staff should be condemned for some of their actions/policies.......but in most instances, from a bit of experience, critics need to look at their fellow bow and gun shooters for mucking things up.
Post by: Hookeye on August 28, 2010, 11:01:00 PM
The good guys: thank God there are a few well spaced to maintain sanity in the retail market!
We do appreciate you guys!
But there simply are not enough of you to counter the dishonest and or stupid. Their population is exponential to yours.
Post by: Hookeye on August 28, 2010, 11:06:00 PM
He loudly said my bow must have been a garage sale find, I didn't have much $ and that he was buying the best.
I was shooting well but he still scoffed at me.
Enough was enough. walked off the line to his wife, after I heard her say my bow was pretty, and showed it to her (he close by).
I was super nice, politely told her who made it, that it was custom made to my specs, and what it cost.
He shut the heck up.
Just one of many jerks I've seen/heard on the ranges and in shops.
Man it does get old. To have fun with it you have to let them burn themselves :)
Post by: Hookeye on August 28, 2010, 11:13:00 PM
Shame.
Kinda tricky to get the right info to the guy wanting it, when you are just a customer yourself.
Most times though the non trad guys will accept your info, at least in part, and be willing to order the stuff for the guy, if you let them maintain some professional position.
Can catch a bit of heck for offering help when it isn't asked for, but if done with a bit of tact, a bad situation can be avoided.
The customer should get what he needs, but you might get labelled a jerk or know it all.
Eh, some archers have fragile egos. Too bad if they can't handle it.
If I go back and they treat me crappy I just tell them off and never go there again.
Amazing how childish so many adults are.
That's why you should always buy a take down. You can break your bow over their heads should things escalate and you don't wipe out a complete rig ;)
Post by: Spectre on August 28, 2010, 11:23:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Hookeye:I had very close to the same experience, I was shooting my Gila selfbow. People can really be jerks at times---particularly show-off techno nuts. I would put me and that Gila against most with a *cough* wheeled doohickey gizzy anyday.
FWIW I was on the archery range (indoor) shooting my fairly new BW SA2 and some older guy, with his wife, laughed at me (was getting his brand new Mathews Ovation set up).
He loudly said my bow must have been a garage sale find, I didn't have much $ and that he was buying the best.
I was shooting well but he still scoffed at me.
Enough was enough. walked off the line to his wife, after I heard her say my bow was pretty, and showed it to her (he close by).
I was super nice, politely told her who made it, that it was custom made to my specs, and what it cost.
He shut the heck up.
Just one of many jerks I've seen/heard on the ranges and in shops.
Man it does get old. To have fun with it you have to let them burn themselves :)
Post by: Hookeye on August 28, 2010, 11:30:00 PM
Post by: Pokerdaddy on August 28, 2010, 11:33:00 PM
Post by: GREG IN MALAD on August 28, 2010, 11:40:00 PM
The only thing most archery shops are good for is comic relief.
In my 40# bows I use .600 to .500 carbons depending on point weight.
Post by: John Dill on August 28, 2010, 11:41:00 PM
Post by: Spectre on August 28, 2010, 11:43:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by GREG IN MALAD:Jeezus. What would you have done if it were YOUR bow he was doing that totwotoo?
A friend of mine stopped at the local "pro shop". As he walked in the door, the "pro" behind the counter was attempting to string a recurve using a bow press. I stopped at the same store this summer and the same "pro" was trying to string a recurve with a string 5" too short. I told him it was the wrong length, his reply was "I know what I'm doing". I explained that it was a 58" bow and therefore needed a 55" string. He set the bow on the counter and measured tip to tip, then told me it was a 53" bow and that's why it needed a 50" string. While we were arguing, a kid behind the counter grabbed a 55" string and strung the bow. The fellow that owned the bow then asked for some wood arrows, I suggested he drive 2 miles to Cajun archery.
The only thing most archery shops are good for is comic relief.
Post by: GREG IN MALAD on August 28, 2010, 11:49:00 PM
If that were my bow I think I would have beat him with it. Fortunately there is one shop in the area that likes trad shooters, we buy more arrows than compound shooters.
Post by: stickytoes on August 29, 2010, 08:32:00 AM
Post by: charlie phillips on August 29, 2010, 08:53:00 AM
TXCP
Post by: Bowwild on August 29, 2010, 08:57:00 AM
The number one thing I like about this site (the only other site I trust like this is the Widow Wall) is I can follow the questions of other people (and occassionally my own) to expand my horizons. I can sort through the various suggestions and evaluate what makes sense to me. I'm pleasantly surprised (and I don't mean to come across as "cocky" here) that after all these years of shooting and teaching, I regularly pick up a tip here that I would never have discovered elsewhere.
Some of the new folks ask questions that take me back to my beginnings and I appreciate that. I only wish these kinds of resources had been available then.
I agree with the good points made by some of the dealer-aware folks above. I don't expect a main-stream archery shop to stock the low-volume stuff a traditional archer wants. Also, I try really hard not to come across like I know more than the shop guy. Frankly, I'd rather act "stupid" (but ignore bad advice) than come across as the know-it-all that comes in from time to time jusst to joust with the staff. The rub occurs sometimes when you ask a simple question about some item you are looking for (ex. shield cut feathers, larger throated nocks, or even an aluminum arrow these days) and the shop guy decides I need some education so I can get with the times.
I'm doing more and more of my shopping on-line. I've found many of the sponsors on this site to be well-stocked and very fast shippers and therefore more convenient than driving to 2-3 shops looking for something. I bought a bow string from one of the sponsors. I couldn't believe how low the cost and how quickly it arrived.
Post by: metsastaja on August 29, 2010, 09:26:00 AM
I put your numbers in. Since I do not know center cut, string material I just guessed on those the 600 seem better match then the 1816 right off. But I also used a 50g insert in the mix
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii45/heilakka/andrew.jpg)
You will need microsoft excel or if you do not have that you can download a free spreadsheet program at openoffice.org (http://www.openoffice.org/)
The program will help you get in the ballpark with arrow selection.
Best of luck on your journey. I was there just a couple of years ago
Post by: Bmac on August 29, 2010, 09:35:00 AM
Post by: machomanandysavage on August 29, 2010, 10:38:00 AM
Post by: fredhill on August 29, 2010, 10:51:00 AM
Post by: Ssamac on August 29, 2010, 11:49:00 AM
What happened is they were busy for the hunting season and selling compounds in the $800 range plus accessories and didn't want to waste time with a "trad" shooter who already had a bow and just needed some arrows. No excuse but that's how it goes. I agree that our sponsors always take the time for you and I prefer to talk to them or one of the guys and buy/sell/trade here. Of course, that also makes us unloved at most archery shops.
Sorry for a bad experience. I agree you should let them know.
Sam
Post by: Burnsie on August 29, 2010, 12:24:00 PM
My point is, you need to shop at retailers that specialize in what you're wanting to buy, to do otherwise is inviting dissappointment. To me it would be similar to going into the average midwest baitshop and asking them to help set you up with a specialized salt water rig.
That's where the fine sponsors of this web site come in. As mentioned above, they specialize in Trad and will go out of their way to get you the proper equipment.
However, sales people being rude and belittling because they don't specialize in your passion, is never cool.
Post by: Bonebuster on August 29, 2010, 12:37:00 PM
In your opening post, you stated that you were completely new to archery, and this type of experience is made worse by that fact.
Read and re-read rastaman`s post on page one. :archer2: :D
Post by: creekwood on August 29, 2010, 12:46:00 PM
Post by: PrarrieDog on August 29, 2010, 12:54:00 PM
Post by: Hookeye on August 29, 2010, 12:54:00 PM
If they don't know the answer to something, they call a customer/friend with more experience and knowledge and either get the info then, give phone numbers, or set up meetings.
Post by: S.C. Hunter on August 29, 2010, 02:07:00 PM
Post by: Hookeye on August 29, 2010, 02:22:00 PM
Gun AND bow shops understand the "two season" hunter concept.
Take that a little farther............even a traddie at a predominately wheelie shop..........even if he doesn't gun hunt............has friends and or family that might hunt/shoot.
Ya just never know where and when the $ will come from.
So it just makes sense, to treat everybody well.
if you make some $ fine, if you don't but make a friend, that's cool too. Sooner or later being a decent person/shop should pay off.
If not, you still can sleep at night knowing you at least were decent.
Post by: S.C. Hunter on August 29, 2010, 02:28:00 PM
Post by: Grey Taylor on August 29, 2010, 03:45:00 PM
Guy
Post by: S.C. Hunter on August 29, 2010, 03:48:00 PM
Post by: Grey Taylor on August 29, 2010, 03:52:00 PM
Guy
Post by: S.C. Hunter on August 29, 2010, 04:01:00 PM
Post by: Mike Most on August 29, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
(All info gleaned from this site)
Thanks boys and girls...
Post by: david janssen on August 29, 2010, 05:33:00 PM
I sent you a private message.
Post by: Gordy on August 29, 2010, 05:43:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by creekwood::thumbsup:
I always carry a setscrew with me. At the appropriate time, I take it out and drop it on the floor (ground), and announce "who lost the setscrew?". While they are all examining their mechanical bows, I go quietly about my business.
Post by: centaur on August 29, 2010, 07:00:00 PM
Post by: dan d on August 29, 2010, 08:01:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by centaur:Very well said !
There's way too many great sponsors here on TG to have to put up with 'service' like you got. Every transaction I have had with our sponsors have been great. Spend your money where it is appreciated, and where they know traditional archery.
Dan
Post by: SteveB on August 29, 2010, 08:18:00 PM
Post by: COMPOUNDLESS IN CONCRETE on August 29, 2010, 10:38:00 PM
Another proshop about 30 minutes away, when you mention trad bow to them they look at you like you're inquiring about parts to a bazooka. No help at all and lots of attitude to boot. Never go back there.
Post by: toppredator on September 02, 2010, 12:08:00 AM
Post by: Dave Bulla on September 02, 2010, 12:33:00 AM
Just curious, did they sell you arrows with vanes or feathers?