Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: 3Feathers on October 31, 2010, 01:27:00 PM
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Yesterday morning was watching a couple of bucks
with my binos from my treestand.They were about 70yds in this bottom working my way.Watching them for about 20min.then they moved were I couldn,t see them.Then all of a sudden one comes crashing through with a german shephard right on his track.This was about 8.00am.This wasn,t the first time it happened.Same thing 3 mornings ago
don,t want to giveup the stand.There are 2 dogs an neither has a collar.Any suggestions??
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I have ZERO tolerance for roaming dogs or their owners. Hopefully that answered your question.
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SSS
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I don't know the laws in your state, but I sure wouldn't do anything illegal about it. Far too many horrible things could happen. Think about potential consequences before doing anything rash. The wrong decision could not only haunt you for a long time to come, it could also reflect badly on all bowhunters. We sure don't need bad PR about some dog getting shot. And believe me, the media would portray the hunter as the villian regardless of the explanation.
Deal with the owner if possible, or the game warden or law enforcement official who handles that type of problem.
Trust me, loosing an arrow might seem tempting and a quick solution to your problem. But it could very quickly turn into just the beginning of a much much larger problem.
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Whip is giving very good advice. The ramifications of shooting someones pet and the press coverage could do much harm to bowhunters.
A few years ago a bear was seen around Durango,Colorado with an arrow sticking in it. The media had a field day with it. The shooter finally came forward and said he shot the bear after calling the Fish and Game department several times to report the bear was a nuisance and they never showed up. He shot it out of frustration and got a lot of grief from the media. It sure put bowhunters in a bad light.
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Killing someones dog could put you on the hit list next. Dogs are like family to some and I know what I would do to someone if they shot one of my family. This happened to me several times.Once the deer was wounded so I killed her , chased of the black shep and took her home. When I told the owner he told me to kill his dog next time I saw it running deer (Not for me) Funny how some farmers view their dogs like livestock. A few more times dogs have chased deer through in front of me. Find the owners and let them know whats going on. A can of bear spray would educate them without getting yourself in a bind.
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About 10-12 years ago a guy killed my uncle's dog and it cost him a $1000.00 fine and court cost.
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What Whip said. Very sound advice.
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Tim , New York has a leash law...yes the whole state,call the ECO and tell him or her whats been going on....let him or her take care of it.
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You DON'T complain to LE, the owners or anybody.
Might even want to refrain from posting about such things.
If somebody else does something to the dog they'll come after you.
Do nothing, or like another posted, SSS.
Courts rule incorrectly often, you don't want to go there.
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i am a dog lover BUT mine would never be loose running in the woods, i would be pretty hot if that were me in the stand bro.
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Some Good advice has been given.
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Here in Montana, it is legal to take out a roaming K9 that is running or chasing wildlife. I gave one a dirt nap several years ago....
Like said, check you state laws before taking out some ones dog. I knew from what I used to do for employment that I was in the right, and no harm or foul of the law would I be.
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Shephard hide would make a great back quiver.Thats my point of view. :readit:
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personally I would trap the thing, #2 would do well . . . our DNR teaches us how to not trap pets so I figure it wouldn't be that bad, plus that and the dog wouldn't get hurt with the offset jaws, you could take it to the pound and let them deal with it . . . just getting the dog outta the trap would be fun!
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I don,t care if a coyote or a wolfe chasses wild life, but dogs... If you know who they belong to, talk to the owner... If you don't shoot the thing!! They do worst to wildlife than coyote and wolfe!!
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You can shoot dogs running deer in pa too but Id have to be real sure the culprit is definitely, absolutely, stray/feral. Id try to find the owner, call authorities, etc. etc before i did anything real drastic. I just cant stand the thought of some little girl crying and waiting for her dog to come home that wont cause i shot and burried it the one time it got out.
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Follow the law and call law enforcement--ask them for a solution--that would be my first step
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dont do anything to get yourself into trouble.yes it pisses you off and yes its wrong but so would you shooting them be wrong.try and find the owners or contact game officials or animal control.you MUST keep the general public out of this,the anti's would have a field day with a scenario like this if it went bad.
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Domestic dogs chasing game burns me up to no end.
However, I did take a nice buck that a couple of dogs were running and he stopped ten yards from me for a breather.
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I had dogs running thru my property years ago. In Virginia it's legal to hunt with dogs on your property. Well the hunt club would take their dogs to the edge of my property and let the dogs run through it. I don't hunt with firearms nor allow my guests. Anyway I would spent more time trying to intercept the dogs than hunting. The only days I could hunt was on Saturday and that was the same for the dog runners. Anyway I would see these guys on the way out of the property when I would leave at night. There would be some off comments made when I left, but I never commented back. But, But I figured the $250. dog collars would net me my lost hunting time and maybe some extra $. So what I did was not what I wanted to do. I FED THEM. Yep I would make 5 Gallons of Quaker Oat meal and use a 40lb bag of cheap dog food. I made sure I got to the property either the night before or really early Saturday morning. Put a drag rag on and go to the parts of the property where the dogs were normally let loose and drag the rag to my camper. Half way to the camper I would set down a bowl of Breakfast for the dogs and within 15-20 minutes of the dogs being let loose they would be at the camper. I fed them til they would lay down and moaning from being full as a tick. They would stay til dark and then I would bring them out to the waiting owners and give them back collars and all. I still do this even though that club no longer has the lease, cause there is a occassional stray. I have a firm and unwavering rule. A person does not come on my property to retrieve or any thing else. You call the number on the POSTED SIGN I come to you off property.
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For all you know, someone's dogs got out of their yard and have been running around for a couple of days. Call animal control.
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i talked to the dnr and indiana state police for a similar problem and they said there is a law that protects the landowner not the dog...that is why we have leash laws.its not your responcibility for the keeping of others dogs...in the same breath you are not allowed to do anything to a hunting dog doing what it was bread for..im a dog lover and own 7...
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Sorry Papabear,
What is legal or not, that doesn't always define what is right or wrong.
You offer no proof of any legal or ethical argument. Just because you don't like it that doesn't make it so.
Not trying to single you out.
Just want others to understand that there's not much difference between a coyote and a german shepard. So any comments about pets having rights or being family, the killing of them different due to their social status, plays right into the anti's hands.
Animals can be property, and out of control there may be rules associated with handling such property.
Don't elevate the animals position above that of an animal. One's fondness for an animal changes nothing.
< soap box mode off >
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Steve,
I've heard incorrect info from more than one cop, conservation officer and wildlife specialist.
Sure ask them, they may indeed have details, know the rules, but also look it up for yourself and double check.
They are NOT lawyers.
That being said, you could be legally correct and still get hassled, drug into court, pay legal fees, to clean up a mess they wrongly created.
There may be recourse for such "error" but a bad intent needs proven there.
Mentioned this on another forum and got banned for it.
It's costly, so only those in the right would pursue it. Evidently that fact was ignored by another site's admins who blindly worship some professions.
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I personally don't sweat it much. I had a couple beagles push a stud buck by me last year. I ended up grunting him right under my stand but he was moving too fast for a shot. It was a total hoot watching those dogs scent trail that thing past me and then where he turned to come back they got confused but eventually one of them puzzled it out. His buddy didn't quite believe him and stalled right under me. It was fun squeaking to him and him rtying to figure out what I was. Good memory.
Another time I had a couple dogs run a small buck and doe right by me. When the doe went to jump a fence, she absolutely knocked herself out hitting an overhanging branch. What a hoot watching her hit the deck, stay down for a few seconds, stagger up and then shake her head and look around like she was hopin' her brother or boyfriend didn't see what she had done :)
Life's too much fun to sweat the small stuff :)
Like when people post "SSS" on the internet. Don't you know what the 3rd "S" stands for? :)
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Rubber Blunts.
I ain't saying....
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hookeye.....shooting a domestic dog is not the correct course of action.thats why you pay the people who's job it is to handle animals at large.the anti's dont need our help showing the world that hunting is bad.shoot someones pet and it will be pasted all over tv..newspapers and so on.that will not put bowhunters in a very good light.wheather you agree or not does not matter its just the correct course to follow.how would you feel if lets say you left your gate open by accident and your dog got out and took off on a little adventure,then you find your dog lying in your back yard with an arrow in his guts.its not the dogs fault he's just doin what dogs do.he sees a deer..it runs..he chases it because its running from him.he's still a predator but he wouldnt know what to do with it if he caught it.thats the difference between a dog and a coyote.its up to the guy shooting the dog to know the difference.there was a story on our local channels recently film and all of a goose that someone shot through the neck and the goose was running around with the arrow stuck through its neck (fieldpoint)it was a wild goose that lived in a small lake that people visit every weekend.looked real cute on the local news and sure helped our cause out a bunch.shooting someones dog is not the answer and the ethical choice is to contact animal control.
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So you wait till you get bit and finish the rabies set of shots and then you shoot it!If it near a residential area check around for the owner,if your in a big woods area then it's not a pet. North Jersey had a lot of wild dogs running around some years ago.
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This is just getting silly. Of course, genetically there's very little difference between a coyote, a dog or 'Hookeye'.
Anyone advising shooting someone's dog and then going "oops", needs serious introspection (and therapy).
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well...if you mess with the dog yes you might get bit..call animal control its what they do. its not your responsibility to catch dogs at large and neither is it your right to kill or maim them just because they screwed up your hunt.i'm not advocating on the behalf of some dog i am just pointing out that there are remedies other than shoot first ask questions later.pets will run a long way if chasing something.i have seen wild dogs running with coyotes and you can easily tell the difference just by looking at them i.e. condition of coat etc...if a dog attacks you then thats a whole different scenario dealt with on a different level of course.
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PB,
So it's ethical for animal control to shoot it, but not an individual?
Silly me, I thought dead was dead.
BTW, it is legal around here to shoot strays (might be governed by county ordinances and differ from one to the next).
If an animal is a repeat problem I have no issue with shooting it.
Should somebody only wound it, have to go to court and face the animal rightists and liberal nonsense of the system, well there should be a penalty for poor marksmanship.
BTW I don't give a flying flip what breed the dog is, or who owns it, if it bares its teeth at me I'm having a Phillipino Bar B Q.
I have zero tolerance for mean animals or those that have been repeatedly out of control.
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you cant be serious....animal control does not just go out and shoot dogs,that is a last resort situation that they do not enjoy implimenting.you do whatever you feel is right.my entire point is that if it does go bad then who will suffer? hunters.i agree that a pet thats out of control needs to be dealt with but all avenues must be explored before the ultimate remedy is administered.
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Here in Iowa been there done it, more times than not. Once had dogs from town running cattle and biting at calfs. All went down with a .243. Owner heard them running from town and did nothing until he heard the bark of gun. He came looking (Trespassing)and found them dead in the middle of the field. The law deemed to educate him in the laws of dog ownership. If you love your animals like family, than be responsible and lease them up. I see this everyday,nobody is responsible anymore for anything.An occasional dog running deer i don't bother but more than three times in my woods and he is going to take a dirt nap. And yes I probably need therapy LOL
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lol...i know i need therapy....
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I'll relate a story about a guy I know, except this dog wasn't chasing deer, but was on this guy's property, unleashed, after his dog had been mauled a few times in the past. Dog wouldn't respond to his yelling at it and continued walking toward his house. After waving his arms and yelling at it, the dog continued without responding to attempts to scare it off, so he took a blunt and shot it. Turns out the owner was nearby too (unseen). Dog lived, but only because the property owner bypassed his broadheads and chose to use the blunt, cuz he didn't want to hurt the dog.
Owner was cited for trespass and unleashed dog, but the property owner was hauled in to jail and is awaiting trial... and this was for protecting his pet and family... Not to mention the harassment, tv stories and paper articles, loss of business, death threats, vulgar voicemail messages his grandkids heard...
You make your own decision if it's worth it if the dog is just running deer.
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I think Whip is right.... but I'd sure be P.O.ed
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I love dogs and I hate to hurt them, but I have also had experiences with wild roaming dogs on a couple of occasions. In each of those instances they were very aggressive and I killed them when they approached. I felt a lot better after the matter, too.
Now, during bow season I always carry 2-3 Zwickey judos. I have used those things on several occasions to shoot dogs on my lease and I know from experience that a Zwickey will knock a dog off of his feet without killing him. In another instance I let an aggressive bull have one in the flank. Of course, none of these animals died but their attitudes were adjusted.
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I have a couple of questions....
What do the abbreviations SSS, ttt and all the others mean?
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ttt=To The Top (of the page).
SSS=Shoot, Shovel, Shutup.
I have a problem with shooting domestic dogs. If running wildlife I'd report it to animal control. If threatening me on the ground I'd be forced to shoot one but that would be the only reason.
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I know of the situation Tim talks about as well, and that is what lead to my initial comments.
Believe me, or don't, but the truth is that shooting that dog with a judo has resulted in devastating consequences. Fines, law suits, newspaper articles, picketing in front of the mans business, death threats, and the court trial hasn't even started.
Sure, he was mad that the dog was there. I would have been too. But the price he is paying for his action is more than any of us would want to pay. Even if he is ultimately cleared of the charges, it has had a horrible affect on his life. Right or wrong, like it or not, that's the way it is in todays society. We can't pretend that the 80% of people who don't hunt don't matter. And they are not going to take the hunters side.
Unless your state allows you to do it legally, your options are limited. You must stay within the law. Just as we must with grizzly bears and wolves, again regardless of what our personal feelings are regarding those animals.
Please, out of respect for law abiding bowhunters, don't do something that would give us all a bad image.
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I'd try to find a way to "rain" a legal crap storm on the owner via the proper channels (authorities). Snuffing out the dog is not the right way to handle it. If you felt it was you would have allready done it.
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to some a german shepherd looks a lot like a big coyote...just saying :)
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I won't shoot a dog.Its the owners fault the dog knows no better.
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There have been a lot of "for instances" thrown up in this discussion. They fall in two categories that need to be identified.
1. You are on Private land (yours or someone else's) and have a run in with a stray dog running game.
2. You’re on State/Federal/Public owned land and have a run in with a stray dog running game.
I don't see anything in the initial post about dogs showing aggression towards a hunter, so all that is superfluous.
I live in Oklahoma, a state where, for the most part, you are allowed to handle your own problems (within reason of course). So situations like this are handled and never mentioned. This is the what informs my experience and opinion. Dogs on private property running game or live-stock are generally dealt with in a mortal manner around here. I don’t do it, I don’t like it, but that’s the way it is.
Dogs on public land are a VERY different deal. Some hunting seasons (squirrel, rabbit, quail and fur bearer/coon hunting) that are conducted with the aid of hounds, run concurrent with deer season. For that reason you cannot shoot at dogs on public hunting land. There is no distinction based on breed.
Irresponsible dog owners (bad pet owners of ANY KIND in my book) are to blame. I agree with much of the advice given regarding simply calling the appropriate authorities. Let them deal with it.
OkKeith
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Where I used to hunt there were an older pair of sisters (both widows) who shared a small house near where I parked. They had a german shepard which had lost her tail. That dog lived to be at least 12 and was finally hit by a car. We all knew "Penny" and, in that time, I never knew her to chase a deer. For those of you not familiar with NY slug season that is something of a miracle. It's like Mardi Gras but with lead instead of beads.
Penny would sit beside you and paitently wait for a gut pile, yes. Run deer, no. A different kind of nuisance.
I hunt my own land now and I have to tell you a dog running deer would get the hairy eyeball from me. If I recognized it we'd be talking to "dad" that night. If it was strange to me and lacking a collar, it probably wouldn't go so well. I raise chickens and turkeys and coyotes don't get much sympathy at all.
I spent a great deal of time training my dog, a Kerry Blue Terrier (FDW - flock defense weapon), to stick close and come instantly when called or stop when commanded. I don't blame a dog that runs deer; but then I don't blame the coyotes for their nature, either.
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i had 2 dog come after me the other night i didnt want 2 shoot the so i hit them with dead tree limbs when they would come at me.think i should get a can of bear spray
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The scaredest I've been while hunting was when my wife and I were menaced by wild dogs in the dark. I'm glad to live in a rural area where loose dogs without collars are likely to lose their lives and the neighbors understand why. I've shot several (knowing they were wild or dumped) and will do so again. In fact, my cousin, an animal-loving female who takes in strays, asked me to shoot the wild yellow dog and its two half-grown shepard-looking pups that she's been feeding. They are aggressive and growl at her, even when she's feeding them! Her father convinced her that they are dangerous, and he is right. I will shoot them with a gun at the first opportunity. I have multiple pictures of them on my game camera, and they have gone right under my stand, before she wised up and asked me to take them out. I knew she was feeding them and left them alone for her sake. I didn't know they were aggressive, or I would have killed them without telling her.
I'm a dog lover, as long as the dogs love back! Wild dogs are a blight on the land, and should be shot on sight. I only shoot them after multiple sightings, when I'm sure they're not just pets out for a romp. I truly hate shooting them, but the alternative of letting them run amok is just not acceptable. There are no animal control officers around here. We don't need them as long as we take care of business ourselves.
Lest I appear heartless, I don't shoot them all. Recently a basset/beagle cross that had been neutered showed up at my house and wouldn't leave. He was very friendly, and seemed to have no interest in hunting. I took his picture and posted it at the local convenience store that all the neighbors frequent, but no one responded. My cousin put ads in the local papers, but got no responses from that either, so she took him in so I wouldn't have to shoot him. He still lives in her yard, on a chain.
I might prefer a bullet to living on a chain, but then again I'm not a dog.
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The three "S's" my friend............Shoot, Shovel, Shutup!
A now retired Conservation Officer gave me that advice.
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Again, I do think poor judgement and or marksmanship to be worthy of penalty.
To lessen such risks, use a sidearm, not an arrow ;)
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Listen to Whip. I'd call DNR and explain the situation. They will advise you further. They may just tell you to find the owner or they mey tell you to get the local Sheriff involved. Either way, go through the channels before you have some fella with a gun, coming out looking for the guy who shot his dog. Often times, a warning to the owner from law enforcement is all it takes. At least that way, you have something to back you up, should you end up in court.
Let me give an example. Years back, when my wife was young and living with some guy, fresh out of college, they lived on an old farm and were raising chickens. They would come home to find dead chickens all over the yard, and lots of dog tracks. They follwed the tracks and feathers back to the neighbors and saw the dogs by the house. Her boyfriend at the time, stayed home from work one day and actually caught the neighbor dogs (free running, no collar etc.) getting into the chicken house and chasing/killing chickens. He ran them off, then went over and warned the neighbor that he would shoot the dogs if they came over there again. Well they came back, he shot them, then as young, vengeful, and not so bright young men might do, he dumped the dogs in the ditch on his neighbor's farm for him to find. I guess he thought he was sending a message. Well they ended up in court because the neighbor filed charges. The charges regarding shooting the dogs were dismissed, but not without a lecture from the judge. The young fella had to miss work to go to court, so that cost him. Afterwards, there was plenty of bad blood with the neighbor. Enough to cause him to sell his house and move. Take that into consideration before you decide what to do.
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I'm going to jump on Whips bandwagon on this one. I LOVE dogs and all other animals as well. Ever think some kid was walking his dog and it broke it's leash? What about someone was putting their dog outside to do it's business and the deer ran in it's yard? Going to shoot the deer next time for coming on the dogs turf? We as trad archers respect animals as a whole. Don't start segregating them to suit your needs. Be a hero and maybe find the owner. You might find some poor child smiling for your efforts.
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The answer to your question relates to who owns the land.
If it's public land, I would report it to the authorities.
If it someone else's land.; a friend or lease, I would let them handle it.
If it was my land, I would try to find the owner. If that didn't work, I'd use a live trap and turn it over to animal control. If I exhausted those avenues I would resort to "SSS".
More importantly, you need to know your state and county laws and how they pertain to your situation.
I shot 2 dogs killing my sheep. But I first talked to the owner twice about his dog and it fell on def ears. I called the SPCA twice and had them bring out Live traps with no results. The 3rd time I took care of it myself then asked the owner to come get his dogs off my property.
Within an hour I saw the Sheriff pull into his driveway, talk to the guy while the guy pointed my way. The Sheriff came down to my house and said "I hear you've been shooting dogs." I replied "Yes sir...Unfortunately that what it has come down to" and I explained the steps I went through. He said "That's all I needed to hear" and he went back to my neighbor, wrote him a ticket and told him to come fetch his dogs.
I'm just glad I live in a state where right is still right.
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Washington has laws that allow killing any dog chasing livestock or wildlife. It is considered depredation. If I saw it, the dog would be dead.
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Have you thought of taking 'blunts' and shooting the dog with one of those? I am not sure if this would be legal or not, it always depends on which state you live.
It seems the dog, after being shot with a blunt, would learn his lesson and avoid you altogether.
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I have to say that anyone who thinks a dog shot with a blunt will learn its lesson about chasing deer is way off course. The dog will not think the blunt is for chasing deer. I trained guard dogs for a lot of years and that simply is not the message a blunt sends. Dogs minds are not complex enough to read your don't chase deer message from a blunt hitting it.
The main thing the blunt will teach the dog is to stay away from you and your scented up areas. It can also make the dog mean to humans which is far worse than chasing deer.
This one is really simple. If it is legal in your state and the dog is chasing deer kill it. We can make up a million what if's and the state should's. Reality is that dogs that chase wildlife don't just do it once. They are habitual. As for animal control finding the dog? If it is out in the woods chasing deer there is almost no way that can happen. DNR or Fish and Game are usually to busy to bother with this type of complaint.
As for the state going after a guy for shooting a dog with a blunt on his property when the dog was agressive? I would be suing the hell out of that owner and lamblasting every involved official I could name in the editorials. I would be looking to get the DA and his bosses removed from office, and suing them each individually as well. There is more than one direction that crap storms can fly. Simply crap to prosecute a man on his own property defending himself. We have a constitution here. Life, Liberty, etc....
A dog is an animal not a human. If you think the dog is one of your kids you might want to look for some of that help mentioned above. And yes, I know I need help. I shoot a sharp stick with another stick and string at large and dangerous animals whenever I can.
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Please do not shoot the dog. There is a dog in our local news that was shot in a rural area with an arrow and it is getting big time news. :deadhorse:
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I agree that this problem is very frustrating, and it is one we should not have to bothered with. But the advice from the guys that say to handle the problem through law enforcement and the courts are right. You can face many unpleasant consequences if you just take them out on your own. I know. I am a probation officer...
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Thank you to all who have responded with such insightful and well articulated advice on such a sensitive issue. That's what makes this the best site for trad shooters.
My take is this. The decision to shoot at any living animal, no matter the situation, ultimately lies with you alone. My hat is off to 3Feather for making the effort to seek advice in order to have as much information as possible to make the best decision for him. The more time you take to make a decision, more often than not, it will be the right decision.
That being said; if I am absolutely confident that my shot will produce the desired result, then count me in with the SSS crowd.
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Just a note about shooting them with blunts or judos- you might as well kill them, because a blunt or judo from a powerful bow does a great deal of damage, and can easily kill the animal in a not-so-humane way. I use a gun when it's time for animal control, which is the quickest, deadliest, and most humane way.
I knew a stupid guy who blunted a cow once, and it did massive damage to the cow's hindquarter. The farmer was not amused.
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you shoot a dog around here and it will be on the news 24/7 and you could say goodbye to a lot of hunting ground. A lot of people let you hunt there small woodlots since they think you are safe with your hunting gear. Shooting a dog even for a reason and they wouldn't trust anyone again. It is that plain and simple around here.