Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Mike Vines on December 04, 2010, 09:24:00 AM
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A recent thread about legal hunting hours got me to thinking a little. Most of the people responding use a method other than watch/cellphone/gps. As one even mentioned going 58mph in a 55mph zone dosen't make you a criminal. Here is my take on what is right and wrong. It is meant to be humorous, but yet make a point...
A police officer observes an individual roll thru a stop sign and pulls them over. The Officer approaches the vehicle and asks the offender for their license and registration, then the officer states that he rolled thru the stop sign back there. The driver states that it was the same thing as stopping. The officer tells him No Sir, you did not stop at the intersection.
The driver quite upset at this point tells the officer there is no difference. I came up to the stop sign, nobody was coming so I just kept going. It was ok to procede, because Stop or Slow down is the same thing. The Officer takes his license and registration to his patrol car and commits to writting the offender a ticket.
The Officer returns to the vehicle gives the driver his license and registration in a very professional manner, along with his citation for not stopping at the stop sign.
At this point the driver is becoming beligerant. He loudly states this time what is the difference between stopping or slowing down in this instance? They are completely the same.
The officer asks the driver to exit his vehicle, which he does. The officer removes his night stick, and commences to beat the crap out of the driver for a bout 30 seconds.
The Officer pauses for a couple seconds during the smack down to ask the driver if he would like the nice Officer to SLOW DOWN, or STOP. I think you know the answer. There is a very clear difference in stoping and slowing down.
Like I said this is meant to be humorous, but at the same time make a pont. A law is a law, and if it is broken/bent, no matter what, it is wrong. Am I saying that I'm perfect? No, actually far from it, but I make it a point to know the laws for where I am, or will be visiting, and do my best to follow them.
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Yup!
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Mike far as I am concerned you are right on. We have evolved ourselves into doing what we want and rationalising it to death. 55 is 55, stop is stop,
I get a kick out of those folks who are doing 75 plus on the highway (65 limit here, cruising in the left lane, and they come upon me in the left lane, doing 66 or 67, passing somone slowly. Then they get all huffy and yell at me that slow folks are supposed to be in the right hand lane.
So.. it is bad for me to not immediately bounce over and let them pass, but it is OK for THEM to far exceed the allowed speed.
Right. . .
I have a watch stuck to my bow riser.
ChuckC
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Your RIGHT :thumbsup:
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Good post!
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Originally posted by ChuckC:
Mike far as I am concerned you are right on. We have evolved ourselves into doing what we want and rationalising it to death. 55 is 55, stop is stop,
I get a kick out of those folks who are doing 75 plus on the highway (65 limit here, cruising in the left lane, and they come upon me in the left lane, doing 66 or 67, passing somone slowly. Then they get all huffy and yell at me that slow folks are supposed to be in the right hand lane.
So.. it is bad for me to not immediately bounce over and let them pass, but it is OK for THEM to far exceed the allowed speed.
Right. . .
I have a watch stuck to my bow riser.
ChuckC
No, its not "bad" for you to not move over and its not "ok" for them to speed either...it may be inconsiderate of you...
Thats probably what bothers them. Not that youre wrong and theyre right. Its simply that youre in their way. Which you have every right to be. You also have the right to move over.
I never said they were right or they were considerate , ETC. I never said they are good and you are bad. I never said theyre better than you. Im not comparing you to them. Im simply stating a fact.
I heard the joke about the cop but in the version I hear the cop "Said" the comments about the beating. He didnt "actually beat" someone.
I guess thats because an officer told it to me...
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I am the one who posted "58 in a 55" in the previous post. Maybe I should have wrote "55.5 in a 55!" Laws are there for a civil society. I fully agree with laws. But I also know that I go 56, 57, 60 in 55 often. My parking meter runs out too. None of that makes me a "criminal."
It is a pretty scary world where Law enforcement and justice become the same thing (that is why we have a judicial "system"). I have been in law enforcement, come from a long family line in it, and I currently teach Ethics amongst other things. Nothing worse than an officer who wants to use power to nail people for law infractions versus using power to keep the public safe with proper judgment. I have worked in countries where the two become confused (communist countries/police states) and it is frightening. Haven't any of you run into the small town young police officer who has a power trip? Very frustrating and even fearful. .
Like I stated in my post- who knows the "exact" time? Times are there for safety and civility- not to create fear and penalize people if their watch is off by two minutes. Know the time tables and be safe.
Read or watch the movie "Les' Miserables." Who is the free man?
My 2c-
Dan
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I was working dispatch a while ago when a woman called in a driving complaint on the interstate. She wanted to report two semis running side by side not allowing faster traffic to pass. I asked how fast the trucks were running, she replied 70 miles an hour (this is a 70 mph zone). My reply was so you want an officer to get these trucks out of your way so you can illegaly drive over the speed limit? She did not know what to say!
Not a story that relates to traditional bowhunting but this thread made me think of it.
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Remember (learn?) that 55 isn't necessarily the same thing as 55.0. No one will be expected to carry a hydrogen mazer to their stand....
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Let me start by saying, I wasn't poking fun at your post about the speed limit, I was using it as an example. I too have been in Law Enforcement, and understand that right is right, and wrong is wrong. Yes an officer has the ability make a judgement call, but they are only making that dicision because a clearly stated law/rule has been broken, or this question never would have been presented to the officer. I'm sure you know this and can agree with it also.
At first look, this topic isn't about traditional bowhnting, but if you look at the content, it is very evident this plays a big part in trad bowhunting.
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Grapes after reading your "Humorous story" I had to chuckle as I remembered it as one recently told by my Pastor at our church. He to use to be in Law enforcement . And reading the other post and KSdan I thought how the Bible relates this (not trying to start a biblical argument please) but there is a spirit of intent in all we do, and I believe that is where the "judgement calls" plays there part. The "letter of the Law killeth but the spirit set free". The law is there to convince of sin (right and wrong) and condemn us when those law are violated. We need the law to do that very thing still today and Police, Game Wardens, and Judges to be of good moral and sound minds to know or at least judge when the "intent" has been there to commit wrong.
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I agree 100% in the wron is in the wrong, my posting in the other thread is because of 2 things.
My eye sight is OK but not great & diminishes as it get's dark & while I'm sitting in the woods & it get's just dusky enough that I can't make out the detail of a few twigs at 15 or so yards it's time for me to leave because it's too dark in the woods for me to see exactly what I want to hit & most of the time it is well before the Sun Down limit, but I do use my phone as a reminder just in case I had gotten too comfortable with my spot.
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Well said Grapes!!!
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Grapes,
I like your story and believe it is a very good analogy toward trad hunting and hunting in general.
Lets remember that laws are put in to effect so that a society can live together without mass chaos.
Case in point: If it wasn't for law enforcement officers upholding the laws our roadways would end up in the same chaos as those in India.
Now if you compare this with Game laws, without ethical hunters and law enforcement we would be overrun with "hunters" in the woods year round and all hours of the day and night. This country would become nearly gameless due to mass poaching.
Come on, either your abiding by the law and legal or your breaking the law and deserve the consequences.
Doesn't matter if your hunting past legal time or slowing down instead of stopping.
Do it right or accept the consequence.
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really, actually. . what is a criminal ? If you intentionally exceed or break a law, are you not a criminal ? Not pointing you out. we ALL do that. . . but if you set your speed control for 70, knowing that the law says 65, are you stopping or slowing down ?
If the law say's shooting time ends at 6 and you intentionally stay up there another 2, 5 15 minutes. . are you stopping or slowing down.
just saying.
ChuckC
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There is no argument here. Either you are legal, or your poaching, period.
Only you know which one you are, and I am using the word "you" in a general term, not calling anybody out.
Like I said earlier, Nobody is perfect (including myself), but when it comes to game laws, that hits a sore spot with me. We are here to protect the game we hunt, and uphold the laws in which protect them. You (in general again) can argue all you want about what is considered "OK", but the best advice I can give anyone on this situation is get a watch or a lawyer, because your gonna need one if you don't have the other.
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Sunset is defined each day as a specific time. It's pretty simple actually. There is no need to interpret a law, timekeeping is a science. Hunting after sunset is nothing more than greed.
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Agreed
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.....And character is defined by what you do when no is looking.
Just sayin'. :)
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Could I pose a question about this debate that I don't think anyone has brought up yet?
If legal shooting hours are from 6am till 6pm hypothetically, just using that time as a base line.
If you leave your vehicle at 4:30am and head for the stand because you want to get there early and it's a 30 min. walk to your stand. You make it up into your tree stand a full hour before daylight waiting on sun up.
Technically speaking you are breaking the law by being in your tree stand before legal hunting time, whether or not you intend on shooting an animal before 6am is a mute point.......your still illegal by your very presence in your tree stand before legal shooting hours. No matter what your intentions are the law is the law.
As far as that goes, even entering the woods before daylight could be considered hunting before legal hours. Afterall, You Are in the woods with weapon in hand......that's hunting no matter how you intend to justify it.
How then is that different than a guy sitting in his stand 30 min. or an hour after shooting hours?
Isn't it the same thing?
I think so.
Point is, where do you draw the line and what is ethical to one may not be to another.
Therefore the only way to be perfectly legal would be to never enter the woods or leave your vehicle with weapon in hand until the clock strikes the magic hour. Likewise if it's a half hour walk back out of the woods, then you should leave your stand a minimum of 30 min. before legal shooting time ends so you will have vacated the area by the time the clock ticks quitting time.
Now with that said.......how many of you honestly do that?
You guys that have been preaching the law is the law......Do you stay at your vehicle until the sun cracks over the horizon? Honestly?
Or do you go ahead and sneak in under the cover of darkness so you can crawl up in your treestand undetected? Tell the truth.
If you do, then you are no more legal than the guy who sits 10 min. later in his stand after legal shooting time has ended.
There's 2 sides to every coin and I don't think this one has been discussed yet.
I don't think that agents expect hunters to do that. They have set the legal shooting time and there's a certain amount that they leave up to the ethics of the individual to do what's right.
They don't expect you to sit in your truck during turkey season waiting on sun up before getting close to that roost tree so you can get a arrow in that gobbler you heard as soon as his feet hit the ground.
No.....they fully expect you to get in the woods, get yourself in position and wait for the birds to come off the roost and then slap your tag on one. That's how they would do it, and I'm sure they wouldn't expect any less of you.
On the other hand, they Don't expect you to be flinging arrows up into the roost tree trying to take one off his perch.
We are all big boys, I think we know what's right and what's wrong without getting silly about when to leave the stand, and how long to sit in the truck before heading out in the morning.
Hope I didn't ruffle any feathers, just taking a different perspective on the issue.
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SEMO...
There's a diffrence between being in the woods with a bow at 4.30am and actually cutting loose an arrow at a deer at that time.
In our regs, they word it as "legal shooting hours".
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Originally posted by The Vanilla Gorilla:
SEMO...
There's a diffrence between being in the woods with a bow at 4.30am and actually cutting loose an arrow at a deer at that time.
In our regs, they word it as "legal shooting hours".
Virginia has it as Legal Hunting hours:
•One-half hour before sunrise to one-half hour after sunset for nonmigratory birds and game animals except during spring gobbler season.
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Yes Cameron I know.......That's exactly the point I'm trying to make.
We don't see anything unethical about jumping up in our stand an hour before sunrise, but if you sit one minute longer in your stand at night then you better get yourself a good lawyer.....Right?
Anytime you are in the field or woods with a weapon in hand.....you ARE Hunting!
Doesn't matter if it's 7PM or 3am.......in the eyes of the law you are hunting. No matter what your intentions are......Legally speaking of course because none of us would do something like that.
Good Point Eugene.......your state says it's ok to get in there early during spring gobbler season.....what does it say about bow season?
Does it specifically say that it's ok to get up into your treestand an hour before sunrise?
Does it also say that it's ok to sneak through the woods with a bow in hand on your way to the stand an hour before sunrise?
Probably not, but how many guys do it?
See my point at all?
It's not that cut and dry as some have stated. It's just a standard by which they set the rules and a certain amount of ethics on the part of the hunter has to be left open.
I have never heard in my life of a hunter getting a ticket for going to his stand an hour early. I have never heard of a hunter getting a ticket for staying in his stand 10 min. after shooting hours, and I don't expect anybody would get a ticket for trying to get close to a roosted bird either.
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In Michigan you can spend all night in your stand legally. As long as you don't have an arrow nocked before legal time you are fine.
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Originally posted by onewhohasfun:
In Michigan you can spend all night in your stand legally. As long as you don't have an arrow nocked before legal time you are fine.
If that is truly the case, then it's all a mute point anyway and comes back down to the ethics of the hunter when to leave his stand.
The law about legal shooting time is intended for one purpose and one purpose only.......To deter anyone from poaching.......correct?
If you aren't spotlighting a field with a handheld artifical light on your way in or out of the woods then I don't think you will ever have to worry about anything.
Uh oh....what if your tracking a deer after dark?
Hopefully the warden will understand. :rolleyes:
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"Can't we all just get along"-Rodney King
twist it, pull it, and re-word it however you like but the laws were made for a reason and without laws we uncivilized.Follow them or take the chance of getting prosecuted.Think if a snapper head decided to take a shot after the legal time at a silhouette he thought was a deer,and that silhouette was you.
And it's intended for safety(yours and mine) and keeping people from poaching.
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I've enjoyed reading this thread.
We have public lands around here that dictate that you be OUT of the woods by end of shooting hours which used to be sunset, now 1/2 hour AFTEr sunset. These "areas" dictate more stringent requirements...usually "parks" that allow hunting but basic park rules are Dusk to Dawn you have to be OUT! Creates a challenge...
Truthfully, it seems all the interesting discussion (thankfully, not debate) has been on "how late" on the far end of ethical.
Did we review the other end?
There are many overcast days that I still have 15, 20 or even 30 min of "legal" shooting "time" left, but I'd consider myself HIGHLY un-ethical (even dangerous) to loose an arrow as dark as it had become.
The converse might also be true on a field edge on a clear bright day/evening...where there is plenty of light--but the legal time ran out.
In my state, the concern for ending at sunset was TOTALLY on hunter safety... but other "1/2 hour AFTER" states statistics on hunter safety, prodded PA to change their times a few years back.
So I guess my point is there are times when it's still "LEGAL" but it is highly dangerous and unethical to loose a shaft!
And still, we read every now and then where somone was shot in their stand or coming or going in but it was DEAD Dark! How's that possible that someone thought it was a deer?
Thought likely never entered into it... :(
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Maybe I shouldn't put it this way, but I think it's all in how the enforcement fellows happen to feel on any particular day.
Had some friends receive tickets for shooting before legal time while duck hunting. I was with them but was using a longbow so he couldn't give me a ticket without actually seeing me shoot. Along with my buddies 11 others also got ticketed.
One person shot early and all others immediately began shooting also.
Everyone figured it was at or past start time. The first shot came from our west side, well who do you think was hunting and in the only group to our left? The officer which wrote all the tickets! And he made a point of letting everyone know the first shot was 1 minute early!
Had another officer with him (also hunting) which stopped him from confiscating weapons from everyone.
Only 5 of those ticketed decided to show up at court to fight it. After hearing testimony from all the judge threw it out due to to much hearsay.
Guess all the others should have showed up in court.
The way I see it if you don't actually shoot or have the capability of shooting, (weapon of any type ready to shoot) then your not hunting. Your just looking! Which isn't illegal at any time. (This is in reference to going to or from a stand, or waiting for light after moving in early to not spook the critters.)
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There are those who will risk getting close enough to a lion to kill it with a spear. Sometimes that means you won't go hungry the next day. Sometimes that means the lion won't go hungry. Pick your poison. Get close enough to skirt ragged edge of the law and you may get by with it. Then again you may not. Jails are full of those who interpret the laws in their own special way.
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It's easy to say "just don't break the law", but in the real world things aren't that simple. I have killed a deer illegally, when the deer was seriously wounded, gut shot, by poachers. I could not retrieve the deer from across a river, so it was wasted. I would do it again, to stop the suffering. Illegal? Yes. Immoral? Not in my world.
I also exceed the speed limit regularly, mostly to keep from getting run over. I'll do that again, too, for safety's sake. Take me in, I'm guilty.
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Legal and illegal are close lines as stated in posts here. I pulled over to kill a wounded deer ( hit by a car ) one night on the way back from hunting. I got my tire iron out the whack it with so I wasn't "hunting". A Washington State Patrolman was passing by and promptly stopped and drew down on me and wanted to know what I was up to. Once he figured out what was going on he shot the deer to put it out of it's misery. A less reasonable office could have accused me of illegal harvesting and ticketed me. I had no intention of keeping the deer. I just didn't want to leave it kicking alongside the road to die a long death. Sometimes you have to make a judgement call on doing what it needed versus the letter of the law.
For those who blindly follow the law, I suggest a good long read of the constitution and the bill of rights. Those are the only laws that matter to the core of who we are as a people.
I am a law keeper myself, but I am not going to stop my hunt 30 minutes before end of shooting light. My state doesn't expect me to either. It expects me to unload whatever weapon I am using at end of shooting light and then walk out with it unloaded.
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In Wisconsin, I can be in the tree after shooting time, for a reasonable amount of time, but if I have an arrow nocked I can be ticketed. This is according to the game warden that was waiting for me at my truck.
If I am correct. . and I believe I am, you cannot hunt varmints at night with a bow here . . because of that.
The Bill of Rights is not the only law of the land. Certain laws. . like murder I believe, are state laws, not Federal.
ChuckC
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Ragnarok Forge, in that instance it probably would have been OK to slowdown, and not stop. LOL