Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Shedrock on January 15, 2011, 07:47:00 AM
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I thought the Woodsman Elites had a 1" cutting diameter. I checked mine last night, and they will almost slide through a 7/8" inside diameter pipe. Didn't they claim to have a 1" cut? I looked in the new 3Rivers catalog, now they claim to have a 1 1/8" cut. What is up? Anyone know if they made them wider now?
Wyoming law says a broadhead must have a minimum of a 1" cut, I have been hunting illegal for the past couple years and didn't even know it.
I have been shooting the 125 grain, was going to switch to the solid, non-vented 160's. Are the 160 grain Elites over an inch? How about the 160 VPA?
I don't trust advertising anymore.
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How much have you sharpened them? That allways removes metal, and with enough sharpenings reduces width.
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These are new, just sharpenened once. I did not remove that much metal.
Kinda sad, I love these heads, and have taken alot of game with them.
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I bet that a 3 blade head counts for more than just the outside diamter. A two blade head may need to be 2" across, but 3 blades are different. I wouldnt feel too guilty, those heads at 7/8 of an inch are mean!
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Check with your local warden. I bet that the heads will still be deemed legal.
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I guess you would have to have clarified just what does a 1" cut mean. If you use the cutting of all 3 blades you are well over 1 inch.
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I guess you would have to have clarified just what does a 1" cut mean. If you use the cutting edge of all 3 blades you are well over 1 inch.
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sorry for the double post
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I would be interested in knowing how the game department would measure them.
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This is from the Wyoming Game and Fish Department site about legal archery equipment.
"ARCHERY. Longbows to be used for antelope, bighorn sheep, black bear, deer, mountain goat or mountain lions must have at least 40 lbs. draw weight or be able to shoot a 400 grain arrow at least 160 yards. For elk or moose, the longbow must have at least 50 lbs. draw weight or be able to shoot a 500 grain arrow at least 160 yards. Crossbows must have at least 90 lbs. draw weight, a minimum draw length of 14 inches from front of bow to back of string in the cocked position, a positive safety mechanism, and must be cocked by hand without leverage-gaining devices. The Commission, by regulation, may authorize a physically handicapped person to use a leverage-gaining device for cocking a crossbow. Crossbow bolts must be at least 16 inches. The broadhead of arrows or bolts shall be sharp steel with a minimum cutting width of one inch." (My bolded emphasis.)
I believe some states have a cutting edge length requirement while others have a cutting width requirement.
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I wonder if the wardens carry a grain scale to weigh the arrow and range finder to measure the 160 yards for the bows that are questionable. Anyone ever been checked this way?
Rob
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For comparison Colorado also used a cutting width but has a 7/8ths" requirement as well as a few other requirements.
"a.Hand-held bows, including compound bows, must use arrows with a broadhead having a min. 7/8-inch outside diameter or width and min. 2 steel cutting edges. Each cutting edge must be in same plane for entire length of cutting surface."
Maryland and Wisconsin also state metal or metal cutting surface and must have a 7/8ths cutting width and two blades (Wisconsin specifically requires that they be sharp) while West Virginia has a 3/4" cutting width limit but doesn't state a metal construction requirement so maybe we can use stone in WV.
I travel and hunt in a variety of places and it seems each state/province has enough changes and little issues that reading the regulations carefully is warranted. Wardens in some states are relaxed and seem to use "intent of the law" rather than "letter of the law" and if a hunter is not obviously or obnoxiously violating a gentle reminder is given, other states on the other hand are pretty strict and a fellow would be lucky to get off with a stern lecture and a warning. Some places I've hunted seem to give a non-resident a little break while others seem to be extra difficult when dealing with a non-resident, I guess it depends on the Warden.
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Personally,I don't think I'd worry about it all that much.I have my doubts a game officer is ever going to check them anyhow.
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I would worry about it. It only takes one "violation" no matter how small or unintended to ruin your hunting. I would definetly ask for clarification on how exactly they would measure, and get it in writing if they determine your heads are legal. Now that most seasons are closed or winding down you have time to research and get a definitive answer. Please let us know what you find out.
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I too would worry about it, at least until you contact a G and F guy. When and if your warden gives those broadheads the OK, then you won't have to worry.
Where are you in Wyoming? Obviously someplace with some good sized mule deer, judging from your avatar.
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Dear 3rivers,
Kentucky's regulation is a 7/8" broadhead. If you make the 100 and 125 grain heads wider for the other states regs PLEASE still offer them the way they are now as the thinner design is better for penetration. These heads are mainly used by trad bow hunters I would say and penetration is key. I can't help it some other states bureaucrats that know nothing about our way of hunting are making their laws.
My 2 Cents.
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I'd be really careful here. In many States if one harvests an animal with illegal equpment then the animal becomes illegal as well!
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In most cases - if a warden checks this - it will be by sliding them through a ring - if it goes through it is not wide enough.
Not a fan of regulations like this or game wardens in general so I won't say more.
Woodsmans are ethical deadly heads!
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I have had my BH's checked in Ontario. Game Warden had a set of digital micrometers to check width at widest point. Also in Ontario you can't use serated heads but yet you can buy them!
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The 100 and 125gr. are 1 inch cutting diameter and the 150gr. on up are 1-1/8 inch cutting diameter.
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Laws being broken in Wyoming? I've never heard of such things! At least where I've visited, that place is as lawless and libertarian as it gets.
If this were happening in a more urban, uptight environment on the east coast perhaps, there could be a bigger issue. Personally, I wouldn't give it a second thought. I just can't dream of bumping into the type of warden in Wyoming that would be such a stickler. Its just not that kind of culture there. On this issue, I would expect common sense to prevail in Wyoming.
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In Idaho, the game warden had a pocket sized pendulum that he hooked the arrow to. The legally weighted arrow pulls it's side of the pendulum down. If I recall correctly, the pendulum also had a hole cut through the flat metal to check broadhead width. That broadhead better not go through the hole or you have broken the law and at the mercy of the officer. There wasn't much room in that test to try and justify a "small" broadhead.
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As an ethical hunter you need to stay within the law. You are correct to never trust advertising. Look at the Rage Broadhead advertising. It is ridiculous!
As for calling the game deparment. That solution simply does not work. You will get different answers from different people. Different officers will enforce that regulation differently. Been there done that, had the judge look at the officer and ask why I was cited and then throw the citation out. I had been checked by three prior officers over several years with no problems on the issue. The only person who matters is the judge who decides if your broadhead cuting width is not wide enough.
Find a good head with a minimum 1-inch cutting width and use it knowing your legal and no one can mess with you. I prefer to walk in the woods with out a worry in the world when I run into a officer.
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This is an interesting situation, Here in Virginia Regulations state:
•Broadhead widths must be at least 7/8-inch wide or expand upon impact to 7/8-inch.
•Bows must be capable of propelling a broadhead arrow at least 125 yards.
•It is unlawful to use explosive head arrows or arrows to which any drug, chemical or toxic substance has been added.
The distance thing would be a personal challenge more so than the gear that I carry.
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Yes, I would check with local authority's.
I know 3 Federal Wardens that carry a ring and do check folks.
I agree don't believe everything that you read or hear when it comes to advertizing.
I had to chage broadheads a couple times hunting other States, it is a pain, but also the law.
I also respect your honesty and integrity. You are what keeps a higher respect for hunters then one who says don't worry about it and continue on.
Earl
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ArrowAtomik,
Wyoming takes their game laws pretty serious in most areas. They travel the mountains horseback throughout the season and I do know some carry a ring to check broadheads.
Better check it out Tracy....let me know what you find out.
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Tracy, check your pipe with a caliper. I just set a scope ring with a caliper to 1" and 36 woodsmans wouldn't go through it. Some of mine are the originals. All are 125 glue ons.
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Not worth the downside. Find some larger heads that will work for you. Splitting hairs never works and is expensive.
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Originally posted by Strutter:
I wonder if the wardens carry a grain scale to weigh the arrow and range finder to measure the 160 yards for the bows that are questionable. Anyone ever been checked this way?
Rob
If you got hooked up with the wrong warden, you would not believe the tickets they could come up with. Have to do your best to know the laws and abide by them. There are many types of illegal broadheads (alot of the mechanical heads are illegal - barbed hooks) but they still sell them in the states which you can't use them in.
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ASK, some states measure ctr of ferrule to outside edge of one blade to get a radius then multiply x2 for the dia on multi blade.
Two and four blade are easy, three blade is all in how the state decides to measure.
All the internet conjecture in the world is uesless in court.
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one way to measure is to push the head through paper and draw a circle to the outside edge of the cuts. Then measure it.
Thats how we used to do it in Washington state.
Mike
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Shoot a bigger head and you won't have to spend another second worying about it. The difference in penetration between a sharp 1" three blade and a sharp 1 1/8" three blade couldn't be measuered. Now if you are already having penetration issues, then I'd think twice about 3 blades.
Bigjim
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I'm glad Missouri doesn't have any stupid laws like that, or at least none that I'm aware of?
I know there isn't a broadhead requirement.
Any warden that took one look at a 3-blade Woodsman or a 3-blade Snuffer should not have any doubts about it's killing ability, those broadheads or wicked! I use the 125gr. Snuffers myself.
However, you better find out for sure since your state has specific rules to govern them and some wardens may not give you a hard time, but it's the one that did would ruin your whole day.
Better to be legal and have the peace of mind to enjoy your hunting, than to be constantly looking over your shoulder all the time.
I am always a legal beagle so I never have to worry about it. I find it easier to relax and enjoy myself that way.
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Tree Rat and Wingnut are both correct, there is a difference in "cutting width" and "cutting diameter". You have to be sure how it is stated in your States Regs. Better to be safe than sorry, some Game Wardens ca be real P#@#ks, believe me I know. By the way, you can now use serrated bladed broadheads in Ontario....Lloyd
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Maryland law is 7/8th so send them here and they will be fine... :readit: I can understand that you want to obey the Law and want to do what's right ...I sometimes wonder just who makes up them laws?
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I can see a game warden making you shoot a bow to see how far it carries if you had dubious equipment with you like oversized feathers, crooked arrows, etc. You wouldn't believe what you see out in the field.
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Probablt go to five different wardens and recieve 7 different answers. I do not mean this in a bad way, it is just the interpretation that each will use or how they will test it.
Get a couple different answers and if it is in the law then yes they will check.
J
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I thought part of being an ethical hunter was being legal, not what you can do and not get caught at.. Shoot Snuffers, just as great a head and no question on cut size.
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A lot of these laws are out-of-date. Many have been eliminated and others go unenforced unless the hunter is confrontational or the officer "knows" he has broken a law but can't prove it. However, it is our duty as hunters to know the rules and make sure we follow them. Having written that, I'll make sure to check my favorite broadheads before venturing forth into another state this year.
I've had my license checked in Wyoming, Ontario, and Indiana. I've never had my equipment checked.
However, with the vast majority of these laws, we can blame our own (or our ancestors) for them. You can bet your bottom dollar some archery expert(s) was succcessful in getting his perception of ethical equipment written into the laws.
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7/8" that is a small game head in my book. Get a bigger one I shoot Simmons they work the best for me.LCH
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The usual measure is cutting diameter. An arrow that will pass through a 1" diameter ring is not 1" in diameter.
Easier to comply than worry, IMO.
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Originally posted by Cootling:
The usual measure is cutting diameter. An arrow that will pass through a 1" diameter ring is not 1" in diameter.
Easier to comply than worry, IMO.
id try that. sound simple answer. if not call ur local warden and arange to speack with him.
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I was told by a game protector that they shouldn't pass through a 7/8" diameter hole. If they did, they were illegal.
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It is interesting that if the rule was 1” wide, a two blade with 1” wide cut would be ok, but a three blade that was 7/8” cutting dia. with 1 5/8” of cut wouldn’t. You have to wonder some times about those who make this stuff up.
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I would draft a letter to the F&G Office with this question and then keep their response on file. Offer to bring in one of the broad heads if need be, but for sure describe it fully so there is no doubt about which one it is. I agree with the last couple of responses and be concerned about it, an honest mistake is still a mistake and you can get an answer to this question in black and white. Best of luck.
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1" cut?
I'm sure the entrance hole will measure at least 1" or my experience is it stretches a little at impact.
thats a law they will use if your really abusing something and they want everythign they can get,,, nice and sharp and looks like 1" all day long to any Game warden around here.. we have to deal with the 40# minimum though and 7/8"s minimum cut.
if its like here though the minimum requirements are for deer,, and deer season overlaps everything else so if they want then play the loop hole game then say "I just realized I have my woodchuck arrows so I'll only shoot at those today officer sorry for the mixup"
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It isn't a stupid law, but using a ring to determine size may be inappropriate if they don't consider the number of blades. Instead, what they should do is use the ring for 2 blades, but for 3 blades they should then divide the diameter of the ring in half and then multiply this by three...which would put the WW over 1". Check on the procedure used to be sure it is a violation and that 2 blade and 3 blade heads are all measured the same way.
You could also just put a wider 2 blade or a snuffer in your quiver and hunt with that.
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Maybe it is just me but it worries me that so many here are looking for a way to lie to law official or find a way to cheat a simple rule.
I agree they are great head I have killed game with them. Just can't use them here until they meet the requirements. I have been told the issue is being resolved.
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Dang if they don't measure up they need to fix that for sure. Lots of folks use that head and believe what the packaging says. Would hate to get busted for an undersized broadhead when I paid for one that is supposed to be 1" or more.
Mike
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Laws are supposed to be in place to help prevent problems.
Lets say, I am a Conservation Officer, and I stumble upon a bowhunter.
He`s carrying a $700.00 longbow, a $90.00 bow quiver full of handcrafted, wooden arrows, he is wearing a damn fine hat, and he is as polite as any hunter I`ve ever met. BUT, his surgical sharp broadheads turn out to be 1/16th of an inch too narrow for the letter of the law. (the bowhunter thinks he is completely legal)
Do I write him a ticket, or compliment his bow and his hat, and explain the law to him so he can get it right, and let him go on his way to fix the "problem".
Too many of us KNOW there would be a ticket written.
The next bowhunter he checks has broadheads that are as dull as a butter knife, but they are wide enough for the letter of the law, so he goes on his way. Problem solved...right?
Do all you can to follow the law, and get bigger broadheads.
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I would think with a multi blade head that cutting diameter would be calculated by adding the cut produced from each blade. Especially in the case where they refer to it as producing a certain measured "cut". On my woodsman's they measure .5 from ferrule. By my math (3 x .5" = 1.5") which would make them legal.
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Bonebuster,
If the bowhunter you describe hasn't done anything else that is against the law (tresspass, not wearing orange if required during an overlapping gun season, disobeyed shooting times, failed to tag or document a kill, etc.) and wasn't a jerk, (the fine hat would pretty much preclude him from being a jerk) I don't know of an officer who would write him. I've known, worked with, and supervised hundreds in four states.
That jerk or not criteria is important. No one likes to be treated with disrespect. I've follwed people at the boarding gate in airports who were rude and didn't get anything for their effort. Then I've stepped forward and received $600 credit for my trouble because I treated the person better - this happened last on December 16, 2010 in Lexington, KY. By the way, that credit might be used on a BC moose this September!
Of course there are a few officers out there who should be in other types of enforcement. The ones that like to throw everyone on the hood and read em the riot act. Actually, no law enforcement agency needs such people.
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Speaking from 15 years as a police officer and working closely with the game warden (now conservation officer), I can tell you that most if not all of the guys I worked with don't harass or write summons just to be jerks. If you haven't done anything wrong and just happen to get checked and he finds something, I would bet you would get a warning. Now if he checked you again and you had not fixed the issue, then yes a ticket is in the works.
now to add just a little wrench into this, say you purchased a pack of broadheads and clearly marked on the package is the cutting dia. or width that makes this head legal. one would assume that the company that manufactured the head to print true information on the pkg. So you are out hunting and get checked by a warden and he writes you for illegal sized broadheads. You bring the packaging with the cutting info printed clearly on it to court. My guess is that the judge would be hard pressed to find you guilty. He might advise you find a solution and that if you come back to his court for this issue again he will find you guilty.
Now I"m going to check my broadheads to see just what cutting dia. they are. Honestly I have never questioned what the packaging has printed on them. I assumed it to be correct.
Archery In Virginia:
# Broadhead widths must be at least 7/8-inch wide or expand upon impact to 7/8-inch.
# Bows must be capable of propelling a broadhead arrow at least 125 yards.
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If the new ones are 1 1/8" as advertised, I wonder if 3Rivers will let me trade these "illegal" ones in for the wider ones? I highly doubt it, but I will call them.
I have been checked by the warden many times. Never once has my equiptment been checked, just my license.
We have to have an archery license in Wy also. I have never been asked to show that.
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On one hand, we have folks complaining that regulations are too complex and wardens are "out to get us" if we slip up. On the other hand, we have folks wanting to add a bunch of what-ifs and wherefores to a rule that is easy to follow and simple for wardens to apply fairly and uniformly in the field.
Also, it is interesting to me that folks would want to codify issues we can't even agree on amongst ourselves. How many debates have you seen about the superiority of 2 vs. 3-blade heads?
Seems to me that existing cutting diameter laws are pretty good. Easy to follow, easy to apply in the field. I think of them as a reasonable MINIMUM standard.
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The WW's are not doubt a fine broadhead. However, when I measured the dia cutting width's several years ago, they were clearly undersized as advertised. To me this was misrepresentaion and thus far I have never hunted with them. My son, however harvested a turkey with a 150 gn WW this past spring.
The Big Jim 'Big 3's' pass the paper test but not inspectable per the 7/8" ring test. They just slice thru the ring before I can make an assessment.
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Just checked the WW 150 elites I just received from 3Rivers on Thursday and no where on the package does it give the cutting width or diameter. What it says is "Nearly eight inches of wicked cutting surface".
I also checked the cutting diameter of both the 125's and the 150's and they are both 7/8"... leagal here in Virginia.
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My guess is that if you get a ticket for an undersized Woodsman, you pi$$ed him off to the point he was looking for infractions.
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I have always been an advocate for simple and stable hunting regulations. The regulations get complicated for two main reasons:
1. Someone tries to impose their ethic on others.
2. Legal wants to make it as difficult as possible for the crook to get by on loop-holes.
I despise both motivations.
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In Jersey it states that an arrow must have a sharpened metal head with a minimum of 3/4" width.
But I think the overall cutting surface is what makes the difference.
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Check the pipe you are using. If it is 7/8" IPS (iron pipe size) The actual size IS NOT 7/8". It will be LARGER.
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I met with the warden this morning. The Elites are under 1" and illegal in Wyoming. He is not giving me a ticket for using them on several animals the past couple years.
I hope the new ones advertised as 1 1/8", are actually 1 1/8".
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Thanks for the feedback on this item.
There are good wardens out there and it sounds like you have one you can talk to if needed.
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I have contacted 3Rivers, and they will take my old, "illegal" Elites in trade for the new 1 1/8" Elites.
My hat is off to a great company!
Thank you Dale!
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good to know thanks
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Wow! That's impressive service. Glad to know as they have received a lot of my loot over the years.
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3Rivers is indeed top notch to work with.
As others have stated in other ways: until the law changes it is the law and there is no way around it.
My hat is off to you for being proactive enough to search out the Warden to meet with. Great job and now you know for certain. Better to have met with him the way you did then out in the field under different circumstances.
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Last year i was accused of making my wife use three inch wide broadheads. A wheelie shooter spread the word around. The truth was they were 7/8" scaled down 125 Grizzlys, she simply put a wide slash on the entry wound. Iowa no longer has a minimum width. I often wonder where these arbitrary regulation come from.
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Pavan,
I also have a hard time understanding some of the bogus game laws myself and it's hard to see the logic in them sometimes. Like an 1/8" is going to kill any better if the shot placement is off?
Shedrock- Glad to hear you got it straightened out and a big thumbs up for 3Rivers! :thumbsup:
Are those people awesome or what? You just don't find that kind of customer service any more these days.
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Shedrock. I applaud you talking to a warden. Better safe than sorry. Better to follow the law than try to bend it. It's about respect for authority and the resource, doesn't matter if it's a dopey law.
To the rest of Tradgang; If you want to meet good game wardens, come to Wyoming. I have yet to meet a jerk warden in my home state. I have had them help me drag an elk, glass a canyon with me and then tell me exactly how to get to the 5 6-point bulls we were watching, and more. They have a tough job.
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Originally posted by SEMO_HUNTER:
I also have a hard time understanding some of the bogus game laws myself and it's hard to see the logic in them sometimes.
I understand the logic perfectly. There are some guys around here that tell me about shooting broadheads that are 3/4" and would like to find some smaller. They keep saying "speed speed speed". Some of these folks worried about speed will shoot almost anything to gain just a little.
God Bless,
Nathan
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Tav, I have hunted Wyoming on a couple of occasions and I agree 100% with what you say about the game wardens in your state. My experiences with them were nothing but positive. Wish I could say the same about the game wardens in one of your neighboring states.
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Shedrock,
My hat is off to you for your honesty. You my friend are an example to all of us. Best of luck to you in all of your hunts.
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How did he measure them?
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He measured them with 15/16" inside diameter ring and they went through it, but barely.
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I have followed this thread all very interesting information.
Dale is indeed a good fella nad runs a great company customer service is excellent.
I get to WY hunting as much as time allows most of my in-laws are in Casper. All of the contact I have had with any Game warden there has been positive.
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Interesting, thanks for the update.
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Glad to hear it worked out all around Tracy,
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I'm pretty sure that most of these "arbitrary" rules came from a lot of the original lethality studues that were generated when folks were persuading DNR agencies and Fish and Game Depts. that bowhunting was a legitimate and lethal method to hunt.
Nothing "arbitrary" about it. Just like there are regulations on bullet weights and caliber sizes for firearms hunting or gauge size for shotguns. Under a certian size, just won't do the job efficiently and humanely regardless of shot placement.
What I can't understand are states that don't have any regulations on broadhead size or bow weight.
OkKeith
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Thanks
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I'm not aware of any lethality studies that would address the issue, but I'm sure these "arbitrary" rule originated with advice provided by early bowhunters. Our forebears played a substantial role in setting standards for archery seasons.