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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: gobblegrunter on February 05, 2011, 09:29:00 AM
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I know that it adds a lot of mass weight (could be pro or con depending on preference) but I wonder what other pros/cons that might be associated with an all-phenolic riser? Over the long haul, would it take more "wear and tear" than a wood riser? (i.e. less susceptible to scratches, nicks, or possible breakage). Thanks in advance!
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I used an all phenolic riser this past fall and love it for many reasons. Firstly, as you said, it is very solid and stable in the hand and has a nice mass to it. It is not overly heavy as many think they might be but more like a heavy wood.
I am very hard on bows and managed to scratch up the riser with a metal clip on my armguard as I walked with the bow hung over my bow arm. Other than asthetics, the scratch will not affect the bow (as it may if it were wood) due to not having to re-seal it.
I was also impressed that the riser did not get too cold as would magnesium or other man made materials that have often made my bow glove freeze to the riser.
When I talked to Brian (Mr. Tall Tines) about the scratch and how abusive I am, he commented that a phenolic riser was a good choice as it is very durable and needs no maintainence.
I love wood risers, and actually prefer the look of wood but am happy I have a bow that matches my style of hunting. This years harvest pic shows the bow covered in ice and snow....next springs will show it covered in mud and grit....gotta love it!
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It is my favorite toilet partition material. :bigsmyl: It is close to indestructible by most vandalism, will not rust, rot, warp, difficult to scratch, impervious to water, easy to clean off graphite, heat stable, moisture stable, very strong and a few other qualities. I have heard that it can be split between the layers, but I have not seen that. Some of the new stuff is more a solid phenolic with fibers vs. layered paper so more like cement than plywood type construction. That stuff is really durable.
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Ryan & Todd,
Thanks for the helpful feedback. Thats exactly what I was hoping to hear. I'm considering it for the very reasons that you posted. I like the look of wood better as well, but ultimately, I care more about low maintenance and performance/durability. I plan on hunting hard with it, and don't want to worry so much about damaging it over time.
Ok, so only pros so far...anybody have any cons to share?
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I've owned several that were half and half and liked them real well. Never saw one of the splits, but have read that some of the old Bears did have a problem.
Larry
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Originally posted by Manitoba Stickflinger:
I used an all phenolic riser this past fall and love it for many reasons. Firstly, as you said, it is very solid and stable in the hand and has a nice mass to it. It is not overly heavy as many think they might be but more like a heavy wood.
I am very hard on bows and managed to scratch up the riser with a metal clip on my armguard as I walked with the bow hung over my bow arm. Other than asthetics, the scratch will not affect the bow (as it may if it were wood) due to not having to re-seal it.
I was also impressed that the riser did not get too cold as would magnesium or other man made materials that have often made my bow glove freeze to the riser.
When I talked to Brian (Mr. Tall Tines) about the scratch and how abusive I am, he commented that a phenolic riser was a good choice as it is very durable and needs no maintainence.
I love wood risers, and actually prefer the look of wood but am happy I have a bow that matches my style of hunting. This years harvest pic shows the bow covered in ice and snow....next springs will show it covered in mud and grit....gotta love it!
Manitoba SF sums it up pretty good.
I've had one for a couple weeks now and love it. I also am partial to a beautiful wood bow but this bow is tough and stable. The added weight is unnoticeable unless you carry 2 bows at once. If you are looking for a die hard hunting tool its the way to go. If you are planning on showing your pretty bow to the deer, well there are a lot of beautiful woods out there.
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/cjohntalk/Bow%20Pictures/1296261342.jpg)
(http://i1135.photobucket.com/albums/m637/cjohntalk/Bow%20Pictures/1296261062.jpg)
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Thanks guys. Cons anyone, or does that just about cover it?
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Here's a mild con. I asked a bowyer recently about using phenolic in the riser. He advised he didn't prefer to use it because sometimes the "layers" could be seen. I had thought it was a very solid, seamless material.
That said, one of the most beautiful bows I've ever seen was a Pittsley Predator that was Phenolic and an exotic wood in the riser. It had a gloss finish. That bow looked like it was made of obsidian, gorgeous!
One of the two bows I dreamed of having when I was a kid in the 60's was a Bear SuperK and a Wing (?) Thunderbird. The thunderbird was phenolic. (I might not be rembering this exactly right about the bow's brand or even the model name but I think I'm close?)
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I believe those "layers" are just pieces of cloth within the epoxy resin. Fiberglass also has layers of cloth in it. That helps add strength to the material. I actually like seeing the layers as I believe it adds character like grain in a wood.
I did some testing with phenolic...getting a 1/4" thick piece that was only a 1/2" wide but about 18 inches long. I grabbed both ends of it and put my foot in the center and proceeded to pull on it to flex it excessively. I bent it over 1/4 of a circle before it broke...but I was able to break it. The amount of force I put on it was great enough that it would have broke ANY and ALL pieces of wood I have ever done the same with. I inspected the ends where the break was and indeed it did show some separation of layers...but again the force I put on this would have broke any type of wood anyway. In fact, the wood would have broken much earlier. I don't know of any wood that is actually harder cut or grind or that is more durable. Phenolic is very tough. It will ruin a bandsaw blade or a table saw blade pretty quickly...but that is just a cost I have to accept as that is also why I use it.
That said, I decided that every bow I make is going to have 1/4" of phenolic running through the sight window to reinforce the cut out of the sight window...either by using one piece that is 1/4" thick OR by using 2 pieces that are 1/8" thick that are separated with a wood lamination stripe in between them.
However, I do not bend the phenolic when I use it. I use it for strength and when you bend it one creates internal stresses not only in the phenolic, but also by flexing the material when used to create curvature laminates the glue joints in such joints are under internal shear forces that simply put are avoidable. If one uses 1/16" laminates, this is a minor issue because thinner materials are more easily flexed and experience less tension/compression forces within them, therefore they create less shear forces in adjoining glue joints. However, thicker materials offer more strength, but should be used in their natural straight condition.
Now...all that said, I do NOT use it in my fade outs. My reasoning for this is BECAUSE it is tough. I personally don't want my natural limb cores to be working against such a material. I keep my phenolic limited to non-working portions of the riser for this reason.
Is this a "con?" Probably not, as a good fade out of any material will be thin and taper smoothly out to nothing...but when in doubt I try to side on the side of caution.
This is also the SAME REASON I do not use "I" beam laminates in my riser that are parallel to the direction of drawing/shooting the bow. I like my grain in my wood to be parallel (quarter sawn) for strength, but my laminates are all perpendicular to this. This is because different materials have different "flex" strengths (modes of elasticity). I want to prevent pressure points...and to do that I need the fade out to function in unison with forces distributed evenly.
(Note: If I need to photograph any of the stuff in this post, let me know...be it the broken phenolic, how I believe phenolic should be used, how I believe it should not be used, or what I mean by "I" beam laminates to illustrate why I don't like such laminates.)
Phenolic is GREAT when it is used properly, but I think there is a right way to use it and a wrong way to use it.
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Con ugly
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I don't think phenolic is ugly at all. I had a fifty's style recurve with phenolic in the riser section, and it was purdy dang good lookin. If you like it, go for it. Good look's and strong, how could you go wrong! Jason
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(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss115/earljeff/NewMcDonaldbow013.jpg) (http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss115/earljeff/mainebearhunt2009025.jpg)
I have two longbows with Phenolic risers and love both of them
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Lee,
Am I gathering then from your post that you wouldn't necessarily use a phenolic-only riser due to the fade-out issues then?
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Nice bow and nice bear Earl!
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I agree with Meathead. The stuff is just butt ugly when used for an all Phenolic riser.
James.....................
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I myself wouldn't, but I can't say doing so would cause a problem. I just choose to not go there myself. As I said, it is tough on tooling. If it is that hard (even if it does flex) I think it could create issues LONG term that aren't going to happen when one uses natural materials in the fadeout.
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jeez, Lee! ...just when I thought the decision was gettin to be an easy one! ;)
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JamesV and Meathead, I understand and respect why some might not like it aesthetically, (especially wood-enthusiasts), but I guess I'd be willing to overlook appearance if it meant a more solid, more durable riser. For my money, I want durability over pretty.
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I like the looks of beautiful exotic hard woods, but phenolic looks good. I think the best of both worlds is a mix of both where the added strength of the phenolic is needed, such as when a BowBolt is installed. I do have several all phenolic risers and they are very nice and very functional. I like the looks of the bow with the phenolic riser pictured in this thread.
Allan
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Pretty is for sleeping with, not shooting. I've spent more $$$ refinishing and reskinning bows over the years than I care to admit. Two years ago I had Bob Morrison make me a 100% phenolic Shawnee riser. I love it! Drop it, fall with it, whatever, just get out some wet and dry and spit on it and sand away marks and good to go again. When moose hunting I leave bow hanging in tree when I go back to camp. Last year it hung out for 3 solid days of rain. Did not bother it in the least.I have since bought two more risers exactly the same, 100% phenolic and sold off all my limbs with wood in them - now all foam/carbon no wood.
I'm hard on my equipment, I hunt hard, when I'm 3/4's the way around the world on a hunt the less to worry about the better in my books.
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Interesting thread and posts. I personally do not care for all phenolic risers except possibly in building a bombproof three piece bow or as close as humanly possible for use in extreme extended conditions. Then I would reccomend it.
I do use it as a heavy I beam in my three pieces . It really stiffens up a riser and makes it about bullet proof. People are paying high prices for thes bows and they deserve an heirloom quality product. I agree with most of what has been written but do not believe that Lee's thoughts on I beams applys to three piece bows and not sure he meant it to.
There is a way to get the benefits of phenolic and the beauty of wood.
God bless you all, Steve
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I'm thinking that Lee was referring to 1pc bows as well, Steve (because of fade-out concerns). It would seem to me that it wouldn't be a concern in 3pc models.
In my case however, if I used the phenolic, it would be on a 1pc bow.
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I quite like the stability and mass that phenolic add to a riser- the solidity definitely assists in my accuracy factor. I have two Bob Lee Thunderbolts that contain quite a bit of phenolic- sweet bows.
And as for aesthetics- all you have to do is go to Brandon Stahl's Rose Oak website, and look at the images of his Wildcat bows. I've never had the pleasure of shooting one of these, but they are some of the nicest looking bows in my opinion.
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Sixby...I do agree that in a 3 piece take down the I beam is fine in the riser section...as it doesn't go into the fadeouts in that type of bow.
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So can you get a large blocks of the phenolic. I would like to build a 3 piece and think it would be a great riser