Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Ric O'Shay on April 19, 2011, 10:40:00 AM
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Many merchants around the world are now claiming they can honor any valid credit card. They do this by using an arrangement with PayPal. The merchant accepts the credit card then uses it with PayPal to collect. PayPal then in turn charges against the credit card. Frequently this is all done without the customer’s knowledge. They only learn of this if they scan through their bill and find a charge by PayPal. It is not necessary for the customer to have an account with PayPal.
As a result, PayPal is collecting what will soon be the world’s largest data bank of credit cards with all the associated information to draw on them at will. Additionally, if the customer has at anytime in the past dealt with PayPal directly or indirectly, PayPal has also added to their data bank the customer’s bank account number with routing information. So, if a person does business online or by a direct phone call with one of the associated businesses, the transaction will go through PayPal. PayPal will add their percentage profit and charge the customer as they see fit without regard to the method of payment designated by the customer. Research has revealed that PayPal’s internal controls are nominal at best. This is exactly what happened here in Texas a few weeks ago.
In this case, a customer made a purchase on the “big auction” site and gave a Bank of America VISA card number and security code for payment. The seller gave PayPal the VISA card information and PayPal arbitrarily electronically withdrew money from the customer’s Wells Fargo Bank personal checking account that had been dormant for nearly two years with only minimal funds. The bank allowed the charge against the account even though the money was not there. They relied on an old overdraft protection policy and paid PayPal without first notifying the customer. The customer found out when he was hit with overdraft charges.
I don’t know about your state, but PayPal operates in the State of Texas without having a registered agent upon which legal papers may be served, which leaves the victim with no means to take legal action. The Texas Attorney General and the U.S. Department of Justice have gone on record claiming they are too busy to be bothered by small incidents against common individuals.
It is understandable that some vendors do not want to go to the trouble of setting up accounts with all of the current credit card companies. Since they are already set up with PayPal, it is easier for them to funnel their sales transaction through PayPal. If you are concerned about this situation, it might be advantageous to ask your vendor how your credit card will be charged. Folks, be aware, be concerned and be cautious when you do business involving PayPal.
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Ric your point may be accurate........my experience has been Paypal is the best thing going since sliced bread. Never a problem in the 10 years I have dealt with them. Yesterday I made a reservation for an apartment in Italy for my daughter any idea how tedious that woulda' been doing a funds transfer? Yecch.
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I just closed my account with PayPal after about 6 years or so. They refused to allow any more transactions unless I gave them my bank account number or signed up for one of their credit cards with money down. I don't give my bank account # to anyone, and I don't need another credit card. PayPal can piss-off.
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Unfortunately until we have a better solution, paypal is the only real game in town for lots of online merchants, especially ones that do business in other Countries.
Do i like paypal, no, Do i use them, yes, an unfortunate circumstance in doing online business World wide.
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I suppose you just need to be careful and watch them. I know they have come through for me when I made 2 purchases on **** and the vendor canceled their account skipped town with my money. Paypal came good both times with their buyer protection program. Although these were cases where I had a paypal account opened not a vendor using my card through paypal. I guess as with everything it's a double edged sword you need to keep track of.
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I've used PayPal a little with no issues. My wife deals with it daily and has had some "knock-down-drag-outs" with them. PayPal sides with the BUYER right of the bat in any discrepancy, all the buyer has to do is whine to them about something and paypal will jerk the money out of the sellers account in the blink of an eye, then good luck getting it back.
Eric
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Tommyboy,
I too would never give out my personal / family bank account number; however, there is away around that. Meaning, go to your bank and get an account made up with the only purpose being for use with PayPal. Deposit whatever you think is right for you and use that bank account with / for PayPal transactions. Don't use you personal account. If someone hacks into your PayPal account... well, they only get what you had in the paypal account and not "everything" in your family account.
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I just purchased something online last night ($17.90) from a vendor and I see that I was charged an additional $1 by PayPal. I was not aware of the extra charge. I am aware of it now!
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As far as bank account #s is concerned if you have a checking account anytime you give a person a check you are giving them your account # and telling them where your bank is. So there is no way to be truly safe unless you only have savings. Vigilance is the best defense without being forced by criminals into isolation.
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For me most anyone here can send me a personal check and I will ship when I get it, the amounts are usually small.
I am still having problems,already was in a thread like this over in history, I can't get my money from paypal and am trying to get out.I have given them verified transaction #'s and still can't get the money.
I guess if it works great for you, I would not change either, but once a problem comes up they are about the worst customer service I have ever dealt with, but I was not waiting for a Siegework bow lol
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Oh Yea, they WILL freeze your account so you cant touch your money, if they have the mind to.
Eric
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I have used paypal for alot of years and have NEVER had an issue with them. Yes, they freeze your account until the issue is resolved. They saved me once when a hacker got into my account and THEY caught it before the hacker got my money. About 10 days later my money was released and I was back in business.
Paypal also protects the seller and buyer. Seller gets his money fast and the buyer gets his product shipped without having to wait till the seller gets his/her money.
Anyhow,I like them and will continue to use their services.
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Originally posted by Converml:
As far as bank account #s is concerned if you have a checking account anytime you give a person a check you are giving them your account # and telling them where your bank is. So there is no way to be truly safe unless you only have savings. Vigilance is the best defense without being forced by criminals into isolation.
That is exactly right. Same goes for anytime you use a credit card. You write a check or use your card and hand over your personal information to people every single time you use them.
No matter how you do business, unless you pay cash for everything you are taking a risk with every transaction. Your only protection is to check your statements and be vigilant about tracking your accounts. When I worked in banking we were told that only a small minority of people balance their accounts. Failure to monitor your own accounts is where the biggest risk lies.
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I haven't had any problems with Paypal,I have a seperate bank account that I use for Paypal only.
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I have never had an issue with them either--the convenience of being able to send/accept payments through them is a wonderful thing.
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The thing that bothers me about paypal is that they are owned by E-bay and so E-bay gets a percentage from sales and also from the payment. I sold a bow on E-bay and by the time the transaction was completed I had been charged $53.00 on a sale of $375.00. I still buy, but don't sell because of the charges. I will still use paypal at times, but not as often as before.
Grouse
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I agree with huntryx, add the fact that my paypal account is tied to my credit card, that opens a whole lot of doors for me when that bow you always wanted appears right after you just finished buying one!
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Super rich corporate types invest a lot of time and money on looking for ways to squeeze the turnip just a little more. We need to pay attention, to keep them in check. We have all seen what happens when the protections are taken away like the Glass Steagall act can do to how finance outfits run us around with the default swaps and derivatives. As things get tighter we will need to get tougher and pay more attention. I found that it is more fun to give away my archery stuff than to sell it on ****. I have gotten real tight on who I give any financial info to, there are weasels everywhere it seems. My new standard is, I need to hand it to the person and make sure it is right for whomever gets it and that my bows and stuff will be needed and properly used.
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Everything is a trade off. Doing business online requires being able to accept credit card payments and paypal makes that happen pretty easily, at a cost. I learned long ago, there are no free rides when it comes to business. So, keep the fee's in mind when selling/listing to offset what your going to pay to use their service.
I like the idea of a seperate (paypal) banking account to keep things seperate and I'm going to tend to that right now. Thanks for the tip!
Most credit cards have built in fraud protections. You need to keep documents/track of claims/accounts and stay on top of them. I check my accounts daily as I always have a 100 irons in the fire, seems like all the time.
JL
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And this is trad archery related how? :)
I personally love PayPal and think a buyer has the personal responsibility to understand how they are paying for the things they are buying. If they don't like PayPal, they shouldn't buy from sellers using them.
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I have never had an issue, and use paypal for the buyer protection it offers, But Thanks for the info. It is always good to have a reminder or a" wake up" call to be vigilant and pay attention to these transactions closely. C
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Originally posted by John Scifres:
And this is trad archery related how? :)
I personally love PayPal and think a buyer has the personal responsibility to understand how they are paying for the things they are buying. If they don't like PayPal, they shouldn't buy from sellers using them.
John -
By reading the responses, I believe that it is obvious most folks here at TradGang use PayPal for the majority of their traditional archery items. My note is simply a "heads up" to all traditional archery folks as to the business practices of PayPal. Thus given the information, the traditional archers may purchase their traditional archery items knowing the pitfalls they may find. I believe that qualifies as traditional archery related. I believe Admin agrees.
Danny
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PayPal is between seller and buyer.
The most powerful weapon against getting ripped off, a buyer has is "the charge back". A credit card will give a conditional credit until any dispute is resolved.
With PayPal the charge back is non existent. PayPal will refund money only if it is in the sellers account.
PayPal favors and protects the seller, while credit cards direct protect the buyer ..... in general.
PayPal is convenient, yes, but there is a price to pay.
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I won't buy or sell anything going through PayPal. I'm old fashioned.
If someone won't accept my US Postal Money order, which can be verified at any US Post Office in minutes, then the seller can sell the item to someone else.
Conversely, when I sell an item on TG or anyone else, if the buyer doesn't want to send me a US Postal Money, then I will sell the item to someone else who will.
On a personal note, I've sold two bows here on TG and both times, the monetary payment to me from the buyer was with a US Postal Money order. I got the money, the buyers got the bows.
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I had made a payment using PayPal on a website for supplies. After two weeks and not receiving anything I tried to call the phone number on the site and it was disconnected. I called PayPal and they told me there were sorry but there was no way for me to recoup my money. They would put a hold on that accounted which was empty. I lost a little over a 100.00. If I had used my normal credit card I would have been able to back all of my money.
I don’t know how they are now but if it’s not on **** you might not be able to get your money back.
**** owns PayPal
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we need to be very clear that this is not a problem with paypal, but with any vendor that uses paypal as way of "third partying" their customer credit card sales without the customer's knowledge.
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I run a business and most of my sales are done through paypal. I Sent invoices traight through paypal though so my customers know that is how their credit cards will be charged. I run a small special order airsoft business so signing up and paying the fees to accept the cards myself is completely unjustified. You get charged monthy for the service weather it is used or not. Using paypal i pay the 4% for my customers and that is the only fee involved much cheaper then the alternative.
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Well said Rob! Most of my customers use it at least for their deposit, never had a problem at all. It works great for when I need to buy materials too.
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I do most of my buying of supplies from the USA and being here in Canada Pay-pal really makes it easy. I have a seperate account linked to Pay-pal and never keep more money in there than I need for current purchases. Works great!! Bob
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Yep...I its not paypal that's the problem...its the crooks.
I remember when Rob talked me into taking paypal on my girls business, BowHush....and the orders TRIPLED!!!
Only had one guy charge me back that I shipped....$12 order, and I never could contact him. Not sure if he got the order or not, no way of tracking it by US mail....so I don't know if he got it or not, and he wouldn't reply to emails.
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My post was not intended as an indictment of PayPal. Although as some of you noted, they do have problems and little recourse for the buyer if things go wrong. As Rob said, the problem is with the vendor not advising his/her customers that their card is going to PayPal. It is just another vehicle for PayPal to provide a service to its customers and at the same time, an opportunity to increase its own revenue. Simply business on PayPal's part.... and folks need to know in order to make up their own minds whether or not to participate. Again, information only and not an indictment of PayPal or any business or vendor that uses this method of collecting funds for services or products.
Danny
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Originally posted by Canadabowyer:
I do most of my buying of supplies from the USA and being here in Canada Pay-pal really makes it easy. I have a seperate account linked to Pay-pal and never keep more money in there than I need for current purchases. Works great!! Bob
Same to me,if pay pal play unfair it will spread.It`s with who we deal we have to trust and be careful.
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"The online auction site" takes a cut, paypal takes a cut (on behalf of "the online auction site" that owns them) and then they take an interest free loan on your money for 21 days (for safety reasons of course) if they feel like it. By the time you're done, you're in to the auction and paypal for 10% +. I avoid both sites whenever possible now. Vendors using paypal should have to notify the seller that they are using it and clearly spell out any additional fees associated.
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the problem is with the vendor not advising his/her customers that their card is going to PayPal
Did you know that Paypal also offers Merchant Services? This is not the standard acct that anyone can get. But, an acct for verified business's. How many online merchants offer infomation on who handles there credit card services? Why does it matter if authorize.net or paypal handles the credit card processing?
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Paypal is the only account I have ever had trouble with! I had used it very minimally in the past and the account was hacked into and funds withdrawn. Total nightmare. Good luck to all the paypal users.
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I have used Paypal for several years now, and it is linked to my bank account, but I also have my bank account set up to notify me via e-mail of any charges that are made to my checking or charge account, and those charges are put on a pending status for a few days. No problems here with Paypal. But thanks for the heads up Danny :thumbsup:
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PayPal. I have an account but have never used it. When I signed up I refused to give my bank account number. My account was approved anyway. Don't know why.