Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: pamike on July 06, 2011, 05:28:00 AM
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I am still trying to decide on broadheads for my setup. I am shooting a 43# PMA with CX Heritage shafts and I am a little concerned about penetration. I have had good success with the slick tricks and accuracy from this setup, but was recommended to shoot two blades for penetration. I have started shooting the zwickeys and when setup correctly I am able to get accuracy with them. But they seem to be real touchy, everything must be perfect. Not the case with the slick tricks (much more forgiving.
Woodsman just seems like another option to try....
Do I really have to worry about penetraton with any of these heads from this setup?
Mike
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what critters are you hunting? hopefully only deer or lesser animals, and not hogs or tougher hide game.
if i hadda hunt deer with a bow that truly held at 43#, i'd want a long, not-so-wide twin blade (many choices) or a tri-blade such as the woodsman, elite, or vpa ... and 11gpp mass arrow weight at the least. NOT SLICK TRICKS!
personally, i would think about holding 50# or more, if possible. light holding weight bows and heavy arrows equate to large trajectories and that limits the effective kill range distance. i wouldn't go beyond 13-15 yards if i hadda hold 43#. ymmv.
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Never heard of slick tricks being used through a trad bow before , is that possible ???
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those slick tricks are NOT for trad bows!
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Slick Tricks look a lot like the Muzzys I've used with recurves in the past with no problem on whitetails. I don't see why you couldn't use them with your setup as long as the arrows are relatively heavy. I'd chose the cut on contact model over the tricor tip. Lots of easy to tune BETTER choices out there (Woodsman and the like 3 blades) though.
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I would think due to the steep angle on Slick Trick blades you wouldn't get much penetration with 43lbs recurve.
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For me the Zwickey are the easiest to tune and are very forgiving. I use to use slick trick on my compound and liked them because they tuned easily but I would not recommend them for a trad bow of that weight. You may look into the Muzzy phantoms as an option.
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Originally posted by Bails:
Never heard of slick tricks being used through a trad bow before , is that possible ???
I know of two traditional bowhunters (one personally) who have used them quite successfully on animals up to and including tule elk. Neither guy shoots over 50 pounds. Personally, I would opt for some additional tuning and the Zwickeys, but that's because I've had great results with them in the past.
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any time i see a "broadhead" with a chiseled field point tip, i KNOW it's not for stickbows. ymmv.
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Not all Slick Tricks have the chiseled point. I'm guessing he is talking about the Razortrick, which is a cut on contact head and does quite nicely with trad gear.
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though the razortrick doesn't have that 'wheel bow point', it's a stubby creature that still smacks of wheels and cams. yuk.
with so many real coc trad broadheads to choose, i see no reason to entertain companies and vendors that pander to the non-trad side of bowhunting.
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Are you talking about the razor tricks? If I was worried at all about how sharp I could get the other two broadheads I would go with razor tricks in a heartbeat. That said my choice would be a zwickey for that setup. I shot woodsmans with a light setup when I started and my sharping ability wasen't great. Recovered both deer I shot with that setup but sharp zwickeys make two holes.
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
though the razortrick doesn't have that 'wheel bow point', it's a stubby creature that still smacks of wheels and cams. yuk.
with so many real coc trad broadheads to choose, i see no reason to entertain companies and vendors that pander to the non-trad side of bowhunting.
Absolutely!
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I shot an antelope at 13 yards with a Slick Trick 125 grain head with a 55 lb recurve. It got the top of the heart and both lungs, but failed to exit the far side. It did the job, but could have been better.
In comparison I shot a 2 1/2 year old whitetail buck at 13 yards with a 125 grain 4 blde Stinger and had complete penetration at the same type of hit. Arrow exited the far side on a heavier animal.
In my opinion the steep blade angle of the Slick Trick is not the most favorable for Trad shooters.
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While I said the Razortricks will work. I have some and have shot them, but I'm like BowMike and shoot the 2-blade Stingers and have had good success with them on whitetails with a similar light setup.
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I've always looked at it like this, I want a BH that slides into an animal not slams into it. I always felt BH's with steep angles and short stubby ferrules eat up a lot of energy on impact because they don't slide into the animal they slam. Just my opinion. Joe
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Zwickeys are among the best flying heads around, particularly the eskimos. If they seem sensitive, there's a good possibility that your form needs improving. :)
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I would get something you can sharpen and keep sharp. no doubt Zwickeys are great heads but have you ever tried to get one sharp? Same with woodsmen. If I were shooting the same set up you mentioned my first choice would be a Magnus Stinger 2 or 4 blade. My second choice would be a STOS sharpened on a KME sharpener. I have no experience with Slick Tricks.
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I have killed tons of meat with the slicktricks and shot everyone of them. But i choose magnus stingers for a head thats already good and sharp and flies great(just as good as a slicktrick even at over 300fps out of my customers bows) out of a light weight stick bow.
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I would go with the woodsman as it will penetrate like a 2 blade even in moderately heavy bone but leaves a better blood trail.
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Originally posted by JamesKerr:
I would go with the woodsman as it will penetrate like a 2 blade even in moderately heavy bone but leaves a better blood trail.
and, the woodsman was designed with "lighter weight" stick bows in mind.
if i HAD to use less than 60# for elk, i'd do some "homework" and ...
* test out different mass weight arrows to see the trajectories at 10, 15, 20 and 25 yards, and go with whatever arrow had at least 10gpp or better and had the best compromise of arc with 15 yards as the main distance criteria
* after selecting an arrow weight, test out different sharpened broadheads for penetration and go with whatever penetrates the most on a foamie target butt
going under 60# lessens the odds of good kill. going under 50# is like betting on the lotto, so be prepared to enjoy nature's scenery 'cause true shot opportunities on elk will be few and far between.
ymmv.
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WOW - lots of info.
so first of all - only hunting whitetails right now (no Elk)
I agree that slick trick designs would limit penetration compared to steep angle - great point and i was not thinking that way. I was more focused on a really sharp good flying head.
sounds like zwickeys have performed well and my issues are probably purely my form - new to this sport (but I am trying to convert from wheels).
I appreciate the help and patience while i work thru a setup. i really dont want to wound an animal because i did not take the time to prepare!!
what about the expensive Alaksa Bowhunting Supply heads - why so expensive? worth it?
Need to find a 2 blade that is super sharp our of box. i dont want to rely on my sharpening skills. who makes them consistently sharp out of the box.
thanks
Mike
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Mike-Magnus stingers are always extremely sharp out of the package. You may also look at the woodsman with the KME edge.
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Originally posted by pamike:
WOW - lots of info.
so first of all - only hunting whitetails right now (no Elk)
Penetration shouldn't be a problem. Get it sharp, get it tuned, get it where it belongs -- dead deer. As far as North American big game, they're one of the easiest to penetrate. Folks have been shooting through them with 40-something-pound recurves and modular blades for decades.
Originally posted by pamike:
I agree that slick trick designs would limit penetration compared to steep angle - great point and i was not thinking that way. I was more focused on a really sharp good flying head.
That's not a bad thing to be focused on, and it's a lot more important than whether or not anyone thinks something looks "traditional." There are a few 2- and 4-blade screw-in COI vented heads that come highly recommended and are extremely sharp out of the package, such as Muzzy Phantoms.
Originally posted by pamike:
sounds like zwickeys have performed well and my issues are probably purely my form - new to this sport (but I am trying to convert from wheels).
Your tuning may be marginal too. The further from good tune you get, the more critical variations in form become.
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I also think you need to look at the Magnus Stinger. However, just chose what you like and preforms best out of your bow.
Let us know what you end up with.
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For my first few years I was also frustrated with my sharpening abilities. Until the Woodsman came along, I shoot them now, I was using Steelforce broadheads. The also come hunting sharp out of the package. Good luck getting your set up narrowed down.
-Jeremy :coffee:
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Originally posted by pamike:
..... Need to find a 2 blade that is super sharp our of box. i dont want to rely on my sharpening skills. who makes them consistently sharp out of the box.
thanks
Mike
no no no no and NO!!!
lemme nip this in the bud pronto ....
you have GOT to learn to sharpen your broadheads - this is absolutely MANDATORY for any bowhunter. the no-brainer way to sharpen twin blades is with the kme sharpener, and then learn how to use a 6" file for field re-sharpening. if you go with the wensel woodsman (my personal go-to broadhead for deer and hogs), all you will need is a file (do a search, there are more than a few threads on how to get a woodsman shaving sharp).
again, you MUST learn how to sharpen your broadheads. sharpening broadheads and knives are just necessary skills that are absolute criteria for bowhunting.
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Rob I have always had a interest in hunting elk, although it is not likely to happen anytime soon. How do you think my setup would perform. I shoot a tomahawk diamond series bow pulling 53 @ 27 with a 28.5 " CE heritage series shaft spine rating 250 topped off with a 175 grain woodsman elite/ VPA terminator and a 50 grain brass insert. total arrow weight is 590 grains.
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What Rob said, definitley a 2 blade, Razor sharp. I would go with a magnus, Ace Std, or elcipse teflon, all about 150gr. total with inserts for my carbons with that # bow you have.
I have used this set up for whitetails with a #45 bow, had great results, short blood trails. All shots were 22yds and under also. Just mho.
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Originally posted by JamesKerr:
Rob I have always had a interest in hunting elk, although it is not likely to happen anytime soon. How do you think my setup would perform. I shoot a tomahawk diamond series bow pulling 53 @ 27 with a 28.5 " CE heritage series shaft spine rating 250 topped off with a 175 grain woodsman elite/ VPA terminator and a 50 grain brass insert. total arrow weight is 590 grains.
i have NEVER hunted elk let alone killed one. i can only speak from a theoretical elk technical tackle viewpoint and not real world. if i was fortunate enuf to elk hunt, i'd want a holding weight in excess of 60# and 700 grain arrow.
i'm sure the real elk hunters will chime in to properly answer yer question.
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what is the deal with silver flame heads?
OK i will learn to sharpen heads - i have to say that i have never even contemplated reusing a broadhead. too cheap to just always use new. feels like the only ethical thing to do and when you are spending the kind of money i do every year on archery $10/shot is the best investment i think i can make!!
mike
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Yeah....stay away from 'one shot' heads.
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Originally posted by pamike:
what is the deal with silver flame heads?
OK i will learn to sharpen heads - i have to say that i have never even contemplated reusing a broadhead. too cheap to just always use new. feels like the only ethical thing to do and when you are spending the kind of money i do every year on archery $10/shot is the best investment i think i can make!!
mike
understand that a broadhead can lose its edge from handling (going in an out of quivers) and oxidation (rust, corrosion). and you will shoot a few, for practice, won'tcha?
unless you spend the BIG money on a FEW silver flames (which will probably send you to the emergency room if yer not big time careful - i know of two folks that got bit bad by silver flames), yer either gonna hafta ship the heads to a guy like ron @ kme for sharpening or just learn to do it yerself. heck you already know how to sharpen a knife, don'tcha? please don't tell me NO????!!!!! else how will gut, skin and process yer deer?
sharpening broadheads and knives isn't rocket science. it's too easy once you know a good process. git yerself schooled in blade sharpening - it's a major part of trad bowhunting!
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If your willing to buy new broadheads everytime, you should probably be able to buy a KME. You could get the KME knife sharpener, and sharpen your Bheads and knives.
I have to agree with Rob, sharpening your steel is a very important part of bowhunting.
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You do need to learn how to sharpen.
That said, sharpest 2blade head out of the package I've had my hands on(discounting Silverflames) is a Muzzy Phantom.
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Originally posted by JamesKerr:
Rob I have always had a interest in hunting elk, although it is not likely to happen anytime soon. How do you think my setup would perform. I shoot a tomahawk diamond series bow pulling 53 @ 27 with a 28.5 " CE heritage series shaft spine rating 250 topped off with a 175 grain woodsman elite/ VPA terminator and a 50 grain brass insert. total arrow weight is 590 grains.
My go-to setup for the past several years has been an unweighted carbon arrow (500 grains, give or take a couple) with a 25-grain insert and a 125-grain head going in the 190 fps range. I killed my elk with that setup and blew completely through a mature bull moose. How would your setup perform? Assuming good tuning and proper shot placement: dead elk.
OK i will learn to sharpen heads - i have to say that i have never even contemplated reusing a broadhead. too cheap to just always use new. feels like the only ethical thing to do and when you are spending the kind of money i do every year on archery $10/shot is the best investment i think i can make!!
mike [/b]
Mike,
Resharpening broadheads isn’t very difficult at all. There are a lot of excellent tutorials on this site on how to get an extremely sharp edge with nothing more than basic tools – file, stone, crock stick, etc. For the price of a two three-packs of many modular heads, you can get everything you need (including a half dozen solid heads) and play with them until you get the knack for honing your own edges.
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yes i can sharpen knives and yes thankfully I get to skin 4-5 deer per year. Difference for me is the knife does not need to be spin tested and fly straight. If knife is not sharp - i just resharpen. If broadhead is not right - i make a bad shot on a deer and do not make a clean kill.
I think i am going to see if i can buy some broadheads from someone who has already tested a bunch of different heads so that i can see which i prefer. someone has to have a collection of "used" heads they would not mind parting with. I know i had a ton when i tried a bunch for my Bowtech.
i do have to say the the zwickey eskimo that is now properly tuned flies great. may no thave to look further, but i like to "play" and "test".
thanks again
mike
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flying and sharpening broadheads are two entirely diff'rent things.
what broadhead will fly best for your arrow and bow is in the testing.
if you can sharpen a knife that'll easily skin out a deer, you should have no problem learning how to sharpen any coc broadhead.
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Lots of good info here. I shoot 48lbs at my draw. I shot the Slick Trick Razor Tricks last year and this spring for turkeys. For a guy who is very challenged when it come to sharpening heads I really like the Slick Trick Razor Tricks. The blades were the sharpest I have ever seen.
Killed 4 deer and 2 turkeys with Razor Tricks last fall and two turkeys this Spring. I think they are a good head. Ferrell is made of steel I don't think I could ruin one of these heads.
Killed literally dozens of deer with Zwickeys, got out of college and my dad quit sharpening my heads so I had to switch to muzzys. Zwickeys are a great head, if you can't get them to fly, you may have bigger problems.
Woodsman I would go with the elite, I have not shot them, but many on this forum have and have good comments.
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On June 7, 2011, "highPlains" posted: "Broadhead talking points." It is a very informative read and should help you deciding which is the best broadhead for you. We all use what we can get the sharpest, fly the straightest and have had the best success with.
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Originally posted by pamike:
Do I really have to worry about penetraton with any of these heads from this setup?
Mike
What game are you hunting?
You stated you are having good success with your present set-up.
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I wadded up a Slick Trick on a boar,did recover the boar but,no more slick tricks for me.