Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Shawn Leonard on August 18, 2011, 12:53:00 PM
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Ok here we go, I get several Pm's a day regarding the selection of carbon arrows for a particular bow. I thought I would write down one major thing that people are missing. Carbons and their spine rating are pretty much meant for the compound guys. I mean a 35/55(.500) spine is or was made to shoot out of a very effiecient 35-55# compound with a 100-125 grain point and cut to a certain length say 28"s. So why than do folks feel that this same arrow will shoot out of a 35-55# recurve or longbow? It will but it must be left long or the spine must be softened by adding lots of point weight. I see post all the time saying I am shooting a 60# recurve at my 28" draw and a .300 spine carbon cut to 29"s with 175 grains up front flies perfect. Sorry "NO", that .300 spine arrow was meant to be shot out of a 75# or more compound with 125 grain point, how by adding 50 grains can you soften it enough to shoot out of a 60# recurve you can't, even if left long. Just think about what you are trying to do and than go with the lighter spine. Carbon recovers way quicker than aluminum or wood so you can get away with a lot less(spine) or more in this case(point weight). I love our longbows and recurves but face it they never will shoot as hard as a modern day compound, so stop making arrow selection so hard. Try adding a bunch of point weight to the carbons you already have tuned to your bow. I bet most will be impressed at how they still fly well, if not better than before. I have had a ton of custom bows over the years and have a good idea what will shoot out of most of them, but do yourself a favor and try experimenting with some heavy points on your carbons and you will see too that they are in fact a different animal!! Also don't forget to experiment, that is half the fun!! Shawn
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I agree bud. Outta my bow, an Axis 300, 31 inch BOP and drawn just shy of 30", needs about 350 up front to get it flying nice...
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Been experimenting my self with .500 spine. I'm getting great flight with 350 grains on a 30" bare shaft. I'm shooting a 55# at my draw and the bow is cut to center.
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Since carbon arrows are a different animal, it's the main reason I shoot aluminum.
I never bought into the notion a carbon arrow is easier to tune than an aluminum arrow especially at the poundage I shoot from both of my recurves with a 32" BOP arrow.
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Great post and certainly reflects what I've been seeing with my set up this year. I went to more weight up front and got much better arrow grouping than before. And bare shafts and fletched ones that hit together.
Thanks Shawn!
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Nightwing, the problem with aluminum is they are noisier on the release(that hollow ping) and most important, I can shoot carbons in bad conditions, like rocks, hard stumps and a bunch of other punishing shots and after a year still have most of them that I started with. Aluminums just do not hold up nearly as well and end up not very cost effective at all. I have some carbons from a dozen I bought 5 years ago. Go to a shoot like the Muzzy, I have seen guys go thru a dozen aluminums in a round or two. Chris my friend, you get the point and you are a woodie type of guy!! Shawn
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I fully agree, most of my bows are around 53 to 58 pounds at a 28.5" draw length and shoot heritage 90's or 150's depending on the center cut with 200 to 225 up front and most of the shafts are cut between 30 to 31".
However, I recently picked a 53# longbow that is center cut. After a lot of tuning I ended up with a heritage 75 which has a .611 spine with 300 grains up front just to get the shaft slightly week. I really do not like to shoot this much weight forward but the arrow flies really good. I would have never thought that I would need a shaft this week, but you never know until you go thru the tuning process. Personally I like tuning a bow and learn something a little different about each one of them.
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Shawn,
I think one of the main things you forgot to point out is the sight window. The depth of the sight window has as much to do with proper arrow sizing as just about anything else. Very few bows are cut deep enough in the sight window to handle high spine shafts. I found this out when I started working for that Ultra EFOC arrow. I cut my sight window 3/16" past center (about as far as yo will see anyone cut a sight window) and for some silly reason I just knew it was going to take a 300 def. shaft to get what I wanted. I started with 300 shafts and found that by the time I was able to hit the UEFOC range I had dang near a 900 gr arrow. As it stands right now I'm getting that UEFOC and shooting 340 def. arrows that only weigh 685grs.
Troy
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The one problem I had when selling carbons, the customers would cut them too short and not add enough weight up front. Carbons need weight up front and should be 2-3" longer than your normal draw length.
I personally shoot AD Trad Lites, spine out 35/55 from my 56 and 58" recurves. Since I don't like a lot of arrow "overhang" due to my split vision aiming method, I experimented on how short I could get them.
I draw a true 27" and cut my AD's 28.5". I installed a 100 gr brass insert, 30 gr broad head adapter, nock insert and glued on 9/32 nocks. With my 125 gr Zwickey Eskimos, I have 255 grs up front. 5" Full helical parabolic feathers and they fly great. Total arrow wt is 600 grs.
I worked 5 yrs in a compound shop and ALL carbons that came out were spined for COMPOUNDS. It was also recommended 1.5" longer for broad head clearance. When experimenting with carbons, you should cut off no more than 1/4" at a time while maintaining a minimum of 250 grs up front. While that last statement isn't written in stone, we found that it's a good starting point and works best for us.
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I have noticed the same thing with carbon arrows.When i find ones that have the right spine they are usually target type arrows and are smaller diam. so then they dont fit in my bow quiver tight.I am not into the light arrow ,light BH, thing.When you are useing sights and shooting at known distances a really flat shooting bow is cool but in real hunting situations insticntive or point shooting will out do it every time.We used to set up 3D animals along a trail in the woods that was set up as close as possible to be like real hunting,,the instinct guys always out shot the guys with sites and compounds.And of coarse a heavy wide broadhead is very deadly.
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Troy, no I did not mention a ton of things, like string choice and how many strands and nocks being too tight and braceheight, etc.,etc. etc. That is why I said "one major thing". There are tons of things that come down to the final tuning of the arrow to the bow, but the major one is getting close on spine to start with and as I said many people are not even close on the choice they make. I could write a book on all the methods of choosing the right arrow for ones set-up and as a matter of fact I am preparing a few articles as I have been asked to write down my findings and opinions. This is not rocket science and if people get some good advise and a good starting point, they can than do the final tune themselves. I wrote this little tidbit just to get people thinking, and to have an idea of how to choose the right spined arrow to start with, and to tune from there. Shawn
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Shawn, if I hadda known you were the go to guy I probably would have emailed you first, but I went ahead and learned the hard way and it took a while.
Now shoot cx150's (.487) with 225 up front out of a 60# recurve cut 3/16 past center. Get some shocked reactions from guys who are trying to tune up (The charts! the charts!).
I started with 250's and I can get the 250s to shoot, but they need to be longer and have 325 or more hangin up front.
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:thumbsup: :archer:
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Shawn,
I think what I was trying to point out is the fact that just because you shoot a certain weight bow at a certain draw doesn't mean that someone else with the same weight and draw will shoot the same spine. If your bow is cut past center and the other fellows isn't then there is going to be a big difference in required spine. The reason I say this is I'm always seeing someone ask for spine help and others seems to say what they have will work without knowing all the facts.
Troy
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what kind of spine does the heritage 250 have? i'm looking at tuning some for a 60# HP long bow at 29" draw... i was thinking 30" arrow with 160 up front should do the trick..... but you guys think it needs more length? I'm not a serious fan of extreme FOC. 15-20% is to my liking.
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Sorry Troy but I disagree, if some one is shooting say a Schafer that is 55#s at their 28" draw than someone who is shooting another schafer that is 56#s at that same 28"s than they can shoot the same spine arrow, even if a few pounds different they would just have to adjust point wieght a bit. I agree others make recommendations that are way off base and I too will be wrong but not often. I have owned over 110 custom bows and I bet dolars to doughnuts that I can get most people very close, so close in fact that all they have to do is play with point weight a bit. Sorry but guys shooting 60# high performance bows cut past center do not need 340 spine arrows even full length unless they want to shoot a ton of point weight. Can they get good flight? Yes, but could get better!! I am not hear to argue the point, just give people something to think about. I guarantee people can get away with a carbon spined less than they think!! As I said this is not about a final tune of their arrows, just a starting point that is darned close. For the post above, even not knowing bow I can tell you that you will need more length or point weight. Shawn
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OK, re-read Troys post and will say yes to some degree, but even bows that are say 50#s that are both recurves whether cut to center or past will shoot a similar spined arrow, not a whole deflection apart. In other words they both will shoot a .500 spined arrow by adjusting point weight and length. Neither requires a .400 spine! You could shoot one but it would have to be long and nose heavy. Shawn
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Shawn,
I agree with most of what your saying. My comparision of bows with different sight windows comes from seeing exactly what I read just afew minutes ago. On another thread a fellow ask about soine for a Bear Archery Bearcat in the mid 40's for weight if I remember right. Here again right off the bat someone suggested 2016 or 500 carbon. having been around afew of these bows I would suggest 1916 or 600 carbon.
As for me using 340's. Yes, I'm loading up the front. Currently I'm tipping my arrows with approx 450grs and thats about all they will handle without showing weak spine while bareshafting. I pull 29-29-1/2" and have them cut to 29-3/4". Like I said, I'm working for UEFOC.
Troy
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SHAWN, I am with you on this one. Most of the bows I build are between 45#-55#, centercut D/R longbows and .600 spine carbons are what works. We find if we want more arrow weight we just stick some weed-wacker string in the shaft and away we go.
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Agreed Troy and those .600 spine will need to be weighted up front as well even at 30"s.
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IMHO:
Carbons as Joe said are more tunable to length than tip weight. You cut those shafts 1/4" too short, and all the weight in the world won't bringem back.
Carbons are great for retailiers, especially if you swith bows quite often, not that i do. :laughing:
I have recently bought some MFX600s and I like the skinny shaft simply getting a cut before center bow to act like a center cut bow, the skinnier shaft diameter does make a difference, and my feelings it will shoot out of a wider range of bows.
I gave up shooting compounds when over draws and releases were voge almost 20 years ago.... To me, the quietest shafts are wood, and I'm going to journey back in that direction.
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Out of my Hill style longbows , cut no where near centre , i have to add some serious weight up front . I like heavy arrows so it doesn't bother me ... My AD TradLites fly pretty well regardless of head weight at my 27" draw ... but load them up with 300gns and they fly like laser beams ...
But 2016's are easier ! lol
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Well said Shawn, took me a long time to learn that I was cutting my carbons too short for a trad rig.
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This is good, we are getting out the info I wanted!! That is that most guys can get away with a lot more weight up front than they think. Try loading up the front of your carbons. They are more length sensitive, but if you have some that you may of cut a tad short add some more weight up front. I was told that with my new Border limbs that I was gonna need a much stiffer spine and even with all my experience, I bought into it. I bought some 340s and some 400 spine and cut them to 29.5"s than decided to add weight until they tuned, well guess what? I am shooting 52#s at 28.5"s and to get good flight from the .400s I had to go to 325 grains up front, notice I said good not perfect. I ended up with a 29.5" .500 spine with 190 grains up front for perfect flight. It is also no shock to me that even with 225 up front they are ever so slightly weak and fletched up I get a perfect hole in paper from 9 to 20 ft. Please take any arrow recommendations with a grain a salt, but use my first post as a starting point and get yourself at least in the ballpark and than play with length and point weight. Have Fun! Shawn
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Do ya think that Stu's calculator might be to blame for some of it? My arrows are 25+ pounds lighter in dynamic spine than the calc. says I need. I started with 250's mainly because of the calculator.
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Do not want to place blame anywhere, but Stus calculator even when I enter everything perfectly has me 25#s lighter and in some cases even more with my set ups. Like I said even Sid from Borders bows told me I would need a much heavier spine but my bareshafting and paper tuning do not lie. I do not want to come off as knowing the answers to every arrow question, I just base my advise on shooting a lot of different bows over the years and knowing what should work. Shawn
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It's kind of funny when I go to the local archery shops that cater to compound shooters and I ask for my carbons full length. I'm on the short side so they look me over and ask what my draw length is. When I say 26.5 they get this funny look on their face, priceless.
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I am one of the two or three emails a day people asking Shawn for advice. Glad to see it on the page here.
Not an expert, but my experience has been carbons (at least beman bowhunters) when close to where you want to be are very sensitive to length and weight changes. 10 grains can make a slightly stiff set up slightly weak etc.
Anyway, with my 60# @ 30" bow I need 32-1/4 inches of length end of insert to nock groove with 250grns up front, not including footing, to get 340's to fly true.
400's, same weight up front I had to cut to 30-3/4 inches. Right on the cusp for my draw length.
Joshua
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Ok, I'm gonna regret posting, but here goes.
There is a diffference in spine between wood arrows spined to .500 vs, carbon spined to .500 but it has nothing to do with the bow being shot.
Wood spine is based on a 2# weight suspened on the center of the shaft supported 26" apart, but carbon arrow makers support the shafts 28" apart. If they brought the supports together to 26"the spine would be stiffer than the wood.
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I should also say that anyone can PM me anytime for advise. I try and respond asap! I like doing it and hopefully I can help, if it takes a day or two it just means I am busy, not avoiding ya!(LOL!) Shawn
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i've found out shawn is pretty much right on.i've done alot of arrow testing lately.i'm settling on a mfx500 30"with 225gr. up front out of a 52@29 recurve.
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Got a few arrows properly spined/tuned to my bows, and a fairly good size box of arrows that are the result of my experiments along the way.
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See This is why i shoot aluminums ! I don't need a calculator, I never lose any and the tin can 'Ping" is the last thing any critter will ever hear! Oh! except for my Snuffer hiss.LOL. You know that "eh" Joe! Hee Hee.
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Thank you Shawn. I think you do a very good job and appreciate your input,don't stop.
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I will disagree with you Shawn as every bow I have ever owned has like a heavier spined arrow. My current set up is a Tomahawk diamond series bow pulling 55 @ 28". I shoot a traditional only shaft .340 cut to 30 1/4" with a 100 grain brass insert and a 175 grain point and I get perfect flight. This also allows me to shoot a fairly heavy arrow (620 Grains).
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I've been shooting full length 340 MFX classics out of a 57#@29" recurve; 200gn point and aluminum insert [can't remember the weight of the insert]. When I stump shoot in the woods, they shoot very well, or when there is no wind at all. However, if there is the slightest breeze they wobble. Can this be remedied with better tuned arrows?
When I read Shawn's post I had that sinking feeling again since i just traded for these arrows, and another half dozen easton epic 340's.
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Shawn,
I just don't like the pencil thin diameters of carbon arrows.
Second, look at the poundages of my two recurves in my signature. Then, look at the 32" BOP arrow I shoot.
Giving that I've already said I don't like the pencil thin diameters of carbon arrows, could you give me a larger diameter carbon shaft that I could make into a 32" BOP arrow at the low poundages I shoot?
BTW, with a pair of yarn wool puffs installed on my bowstring, my Blacktails are very quiet upon arrow release with my 2212 aluminum arrows.
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Where was this post before I spent several hundred dollars learning this for myself? Shawn I have to agree with you on this and it is good to know that you are available as a resource if I run into any other problems. I have several dozen extra shafts in different sizes, but I have learned a lot and it is fun experminenting. The most important thing I learned is not to cut the shaft until I am more than sure they need it, and to makes small cuts. The ends don't glue back so well.
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A 300 or 340 spine arrow is the same spine regardless of the bow. The arrow doesn't know if it's being shot out of a compound or a real bow.
A .500 spine arrow will work out of a 35 - 55lb trad bow but you will have to spend time working with length and point weight. If you think you can cut every arrow to 28" and screw on a 125 point then you're better off having the local shop do the tuning for you.
I have a 60# self bow that cannot possibly shoot a 340 arrow without bouncing off of the riser. I also have a high performing carbon longbow and static tip recurve, both 62@28 that shoot 29" 340's well with 235 up front. Both of these arrows show slightly weak with any increase in length, point weight or draw length. Bareshafts out to 50 yards prove it.
I would rather shoot a .300 spine arrow but the selection isn't as great.
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Well since your giving me advice on another post let me ask this one here. Maybe it will help others at some point.
What would you suggest for a starting point with a new bow I have in the mail.
Blacktail elite vl recurve,
55@27", I draw 28.5 consistantly so am assuming 59lbs, I don't have a scale to measure.
I have brass inserts and a good selection of field points but my arrows are currently limited to
GT
3355
5575
and I have 4 full length CE Heritage 350.
I can order others but would like to find "the one" with what I have if I can.
Thanks
Jason
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They are stiff, but they are also light, so adding point weight is an excellent way to get a heavy, yet properly spined FOC arrow that recovers quick, penetrates better than anything else, is tougher than anything else, and cheaper than anything else at around $40 a dozen. I love 'em !
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Plentycoupe the 55/75 will work for you just start long and cut from the nock end. Go with a minimum of 225 grains of point weight. I would bet if you leave them 30"s long than 225-275 will have you right in the ballpark!! BSDS my post states what you said about a 35/55 working in a trad bow but as you said long and heavy point out of a trad bow at 35#s. I agree about the spine rating but not as you put it, the bow does know the difference as a trad bow is nowhere near as efficient as the compund, that is why a 60# compound with the same arrow shot from a trad bow will do 50 fps. more or more. Read my original post again. Shawn
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Nightwing CE, Goldtip, Easton Fatboy. They all make fat carbons and you could go with the next spine up from what you think and add plenty of point weight to get the weight up where you want it as most are fairly light gpi. from what I know. Someone may make a heavier gpi. fat carbon shaft too than go with the lighter spine and add the weight you need to get perfect flight and have a nice tough hunting and stumping shaft. Do a search and check bowhunterssuperstore or Lancaster. They are out there. Shawn
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BSDS, not saying your bow won't shoot that arrow well but I am saying it is not optimum for that bow. I am 100% sure that you could get away with a .400 spine cut to 29"s and 225 grains up front. One of the absolute best shooters I know, shoots a high performance recurve that is 63#s at his 28.5" draw and shoots a .400 spine cut to 29.5"s and he is shooting 250 grains up front. His bow is 3/16th. past center so this also helps. Absolutely perfect flight, it may help his release is flawless but he is the best shot I know. Shawn
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One last post for now, remember I am not saying there are not a ton of factors. I am referring really only to one aspect and that is what my original post is about. Just getting folks a good starting point, so they do not waste money on shafts that do not work for them. People will listen to who they want but remember not all advise is created equal. Just use some common sense and read my first post to get ya started in the right direction. Shawn
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Thanks for the information.
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Originally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Nightwing CE, Goldtip, Easton Fatboy. They all make fat carbons and you could go with the next spine up from what you think and add plenty of point weight to get the weight up where you want it as most are fairly light gpi. from what I know. Someone may make a heavier gpi. fat carbon shaft too than go with the lighter spine and add the weight you need to get perfect flight and have a nice tough hunting and stumping shaft. Do a search and check bowhunterssuperstore or Lancaster. They are out there. Shawn
I love to experiment and will take your advice. Of course, with bowhunting season just around the corner, it looks like it will be the middle of January when I try a carbon arrow. Not enough time to experiment with a fat carbon arrow at this late juncture. Thanks for your advice, knowledge and info.
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I seem to be able to consitantly tune an arrow such as using Stu's calc and retune the same arrow by signifcantly adding wt up front where the dynamic spine is ~30#'s less than the bow's required spine.
My deduction is that the same arrow can be properly tuned at two significantly different final arrow weights.
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All I want is an arrow that shoots true and passes all the way through a critter!
Good work Shawn and great thread! I think I will order the Heritage 90's instead of the 150's.....
Well, unless I go to bamboo. Any recommendations there guys?
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The same arrow may be able to be tuned but not at the same length. I can get most any spine to fly well out of my bows by changing length and adding the right amount of point weight. I just had a PM from a well respected sponsor on here and we both tune the same way. I cut everything to 29-29.5"s and get the arrow tuned by adding the right amount of point weight. We both agree however we have to be close on the spine in the first place. In other words, I shoot 50-56# bows at my 28.5" draw, I may start with a .400 spine and a .500 spine but never a 340 or 300 spine as I would have to add a ridiculous amount of weight to get them to tune. Great stuff from everyone, gets people thinking! Shawn
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350 and 300 shafts weighing 6.7 and 6.9 gpi respectively present the opportuninty of piling on the front end wt and still have a moderate over-all final arrow wt.
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Friend no doubt but out of the poundage I shoot and the length of arrow I like I would need 500 plus grains of arrow weight to get the flight I want. Should also say I like an arrow around 9gpp as well. Shawn
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Shawn,
You're completely wrong about your recommendations on my setup and you may be steering people in the wrong direction with your advice.
I've owned at least as many bows as you and have probably been hunting longer. You stated that you're 100% sure that I need a 400 spine arrow like you but you shoot 10#'s less weight. I think you just may have gotten a little confused with all of the posts.
I bareshaft tune all of the time and keep a bareshaft in my quiver everytime I shoot targets or go roving. A 400 spine bareshaft is unpredictable out of the bows mentioned because of the weak spine causing erratic flight.
If you've never tried it you may benefit from stripping the feathers off of your arrows before you begin any other tuning. This also helps with a clean consistent release.
Good luck.
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I shoot the AD Trad Lites through all my bows. They are all about 50# at my 29.5" draw. I Leave em' full length and add a 100 gr. insert and a 175 gr. Zwickey Broadhead. 3 X 5" sheild cut fletching.
They seem to fly great for me.
My question is do you think that AD has their recommendation for trad bows correct?
Also what do you think of these shafts in general?
Thanks Shawn! :thumbsup:
Tenbrook
AD Traditional Shaft Specs
Spine: 55-70# @ 28"
Overall weight: 355 gr ± 5 grains, no GPI due to taper design
Straightness: ± .005"
Traditional Lite Shaft Specs
Spine: 35-55# @ 28"
Overall weight: 307 gr ± 5 grains, no GPI due to taper design
Straightness: ± .005
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I've been hunting with the same bow for a while(although I shoot others). Its a Widow PSA 58" and 60@28 , I draw about 27+ so 58#'s at my draw. I have shot Easton Axis 340's 28.5/8" bop, 100 grain brass insert and 175 grain head out of it for 3 years. In that time I've taken elk, bear, turkey, deer, even a ram with it. So I wanted to see how it bare shafted.
Setup was 25 yds on my range finder. (http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu36/L82HUNT/100_1852.jpg)
Shooting a 2" wide simmions, a bareshaft with a wrap on it and a field point. (http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu36/L82HUNT/100_1851.jpg)
The red fletched arrow with the broadhead struck a couple inches high, while the bare shaft and field point both struck a 1" low. (http://i631.photobucket.com/albums/uu36/L82HUNT/100_1853.jpg)
Is this tuned enough.
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Sorry BDSD, I think you are the one confused, I don't think you have a clue. Obviously you have to re-read my posts, I shoot a .500 spine not a .400 spine :readit: I can shoot a .400 spine but I have to add too much weight up front and I like an arrow around 9gpp. As I said people can and do get away with a lot less spine than they think they can. Never said your set-up would not shoot, just that your experience is different. Lots of folks doing what I am doing, more so than what you are reccomending so do as you like and as I said listen to who you like. We agree to disagree as do many others. Shawn
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tenbrook, those tapered shafts are great, fly out of a wider range of bow weights than most. 275 up front out of a basic .500 deflection, sounds good too me! Shawn
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L82Hunt, works for you but try a .400 spine set -up the same way and tell us what ya think. Bet it flies very nice for ya. Shawn
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troy's on the money, as expected. the physical properties of how the shelf is cut with regards to the centerline of the riser is extremely important when in conjunction with dynamic arrow spine. then add in the shooter's form consistency, or lack thereof.
after spending too much money and time testing out a variety of carbon shafts/arrows about 10 years ago, i realized that the static and dynamic spine of carbon shafting is completely different than the spine ratings of aluminium, fiberglass and wood shafting.
i shoot a variety of 50-55# longbows that includes string follow hill style, mild r/d hybrid and aggressive r/d hybrid. the carbon that works best for me are the weak ones and that means .500 spine at 29.5" long from depth of nock to the insert and a good 200 to 300 grains of front end. all arrows are 10-12gpp, with either slight offset 4" low-pro banana 4-fletch, or hefty helical 5.25" custom fat shield 3-fletch. i'm not even gonna get into foc numbers.
imho, all this business of what arrows work best out of what bow for what archer still comes down to personal trialing and your standards of arrow flight and consistent accuracy. all the rap and charts and software and whatnot ain't gonna be as good as hand's on testing, and there are some dues to be paid, and for the most part there is no free lunch. enjoy the journey.
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Rob, agreed and stated that there are a ton of factors. I posted this to get guys thinking and giving people a starting point on one simple concept. I find over the years this advise if taken saves folks quite a bit of money by getting them in the ballpark, there are many variables but if you get close and are not one or two spine off from what you need, you can get an arrow to tune by just playng with the length a tad at a time and point weight. Rob, your experience reflects what I am saying, a lot of guys would say with your R/D LBs that you would have a way weak shaft but you and I know better. Shawn
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This has been a great thread!! I've gotten a lot of information I've been wondering about! Thanks!
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I just picked up a bob lee recurve and wanted to shoot beeman mfx arrows, the bow is 55 at 29 I'll draw to 28 so about 52lbs what spine of arrow should I get I'll be shooting the 200 grain VPA broadheads and I can use the brass inserts. I dont wont to go overboard with weight up front but i could use the 50 grain or 75 grain brass inserts it dont matter I hope you can help thanks shawn
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Shot just that bow for a while, I would go with CE 150(.487 spine)cut to 29"s(leave 31"s and cut back 1/4" at a time from nock end until it tunes) and a regular insert and that 200VPA, bet you are right there. I would say you will end up right around 29"s, use a good 10-12 starnd FF string as well. Shawn
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BSDS, I cannot find anywhere that said I shoot a 400 spine. I looked at all my posts and if I do have to shoot one I add a lot of point weight. I have been getting a ton of positive PM's and doing my best to answer everyone. I will say that I like an arrow 29-29.5"s so I cut mine that length and It has become very easy to adjust point weight with all the brass inserts and add a weight systems and steel adapters. etc,etc. that is how I tune, Remember you are best getiing close in spine by common sense and than leave long and cut back a 1/4" at a time until ya get the flight you want. Cut from the nock end, so you don't have to keep removing your inserts. I think we are doing good, and getting the word out so guys do not waste a lot of money starting out of the ballpark. Shawn
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Yes....Carbons are a different animal....ESPECIALLY Arrow Dynamic Trads....for me.
I've been shooting them exclusively for nearly 10 years now.
What ever bow I want to use, from 58 to 78#s....with what ever head I want to use...from 150 to 225 grains......all cut 29"s. This 'animal' don't care what bow I shoot it out of, or what its toting on the front end.
I haven't been in the 'guess the spine' game for nearly a decade. Yep, way different.
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Terry, exactly and I know you can flat out shoot. Just trying to get others to find a good starting point. Those ADs really help being tapered as well. 78#s would kill me anymore, I can still shoot it but would have trouble getting out of bed the next day!!(lol) Shawn
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No worries Shawn....that's why I said 'for me'. Some folks can't shoot em, but many have had the same results I have. So again, for me, they are definitely a different animal.
:campfire:
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Yes....Carbons are a different animal....ESPECIALLY Arrow Dynamic Trads....for me.
I've been shooting them exclusively for nearly 10 years now.
What ever bow I want to use, from 58 to 78#s....with what ever head I want to use...from 150 to 225 grains......all cut 29"s. This 'animal' don't care what bow I shoot it out of, or what its toting on the front end.
I haven't been in the 'guess the spine' game for nearly a decade. Yep, way different.
i have real problems getting any static stiff spined arrow to fly well ... BUT, i can shoot any AD arrow type from 28.5"-30" long out of any of my bows with truly great arrow flight. and these are really STIFF arrows. dunno exactly why, but i'm sure the aft end shaft tapering is part of that equation. terry once told me "just shoot the AD, don't worry about the spine" and he was dead on right. the AD's are in a class by themselves. :thumbsup:
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I said in an earlier post here...my AD Trad Lites cut 28.5" with 255 grains up front fly perfectly out to 60 yds from my 56# Groves and 58# Kempf recurve at my 27" draw.
If I left them 29.5" or 30"...I could get away with a 50 gr brass insert instead of the 100. These shafts seem to work well out of a variety of bows and weights.
I'll still shoot my 2117 Dougherty Naturals 90% of the time and I don't get any "ping" or noise upon release. As Sergio stated..."Thats the last noise they may hear"....and I hunted with Serg...
He don't lie....well...may exaggerate at times..
:laughing:
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I shoot 30" 400 spine GT, Vapors, and ACC's with 125 to 175 gr points (standard inserts) out of my 53# (at 29") DAS. Centershot set so string is pn the right side of arrow point. Bareshaft groups perfectly with fletched and perfect BH flight.
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Steve, agree but try a .500 spine with same point weight. It will fly very well for you I am sure. I have to agree that Dalaas and other ILF set-up are forgiving but what I am saying is most guys could get away with a lighter spine and get even better results. The ADs that Terry, Joe and Rob are referring to our a different animal unto themselves, the taper and the weight forward built into the shaft have even more positive effect on the spine range people can get away with. Shawn
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The 500's are ok (no better) with 125's, but are lighter then I want to shoot for hunting. Fine for 3d and quite a bit faster.
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the physical properties of how the shelf is cut with regards to the centerline of the riser is extremely important when in conjunction with dynamic arrow spine. then add in the shooter's form consistency, or lack thereof.
This statement pretty much tells the whole story.
But.... in addition to this i think the bows limb design itself, brace height used, the type of string determining the efficiency rating, in concert with shelf cut out location can be a determining factor on spine selection too.
an extreme example would be a 50 pound recurve cut to 1/8" past center with a 16 strand string, and braced at 8.5" that shoots 170 fps.....
vs..... a long bow of the same weight cut to center using a 6 strand string, braced at 6", shooting 195 fps..... the long bow here can and will shoot the same weight arrow with a stiffer spine shaft with the same length and same point weight even though its only cut to center. The same thing applies to round wheels, vs energy cams in a compound bow....
The very cool part about carbon shafts is the recovery time is so much quicker.
I've always leaned on the side of tuning a more flexible shaft with the right point weight. I'm thinking that if you were to get a less than perfect release, the effect on the arrow flight wont be as extreme as a stiffer spine shaft.....
Any thoughts on that line of thinking guys?
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Kirkll, agreed but this thread was just to get guys in the ballpark, not an end all to tuning carbons. I just see so many guys starting out with too stiff a shaft and giving up on carbons. Re-read my earlier posts, there are many variables but one thing I am sure, is most guys start out with shafts that are too stiff. I said earlier, shelf cut, braceheight,nocks being too tight,etc.etc. They all have an effect on what spine will work, but if guys are way out of the ballpark they will end up spending lots of money and never being happy. Shawn
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I'm with ya brutha Shawn.... I'm with ya...
I totally agree that most guys are going off the arrow charts and cutting their arrows too short from the get go.
What's your opinion on a more flexible shaft being more forgiving of a less than perfect release, vs a stiffer spine? Is this a fragment of my fig-nuten? or is there something to this?
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I agree more flexible allows for a sloppier release. I read where Blacky said when using a shooting machine the arrow goes thru very little paradox side to side so you can get away with a much stiffer spine, that is why bows cut well past center can shoot a variety of spines better. I believe a lot of aboriginals used arrows that were 36-40"s long and they had short draw lengths cause the longer arrow straightened out pretty quick even with not much point weight. Shawn