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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: kibok&ko on August 23, 2011, 03:29:00 AM
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Hello Guys, i have a question about this old Bear TD
Look please at the position/ angle of the arrow on the shelf
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1010357.jpg)
Is that OK for this type of old bow or is it a twist limbs problem ?
Thank you / David
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Appears something is not right.You should be able tell if one or both limbs are twisted.With the bow strung,looking down the belly side from tip to tip is the string running down the center of the riser.
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Post more pics might help from different angles.
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I’m thinking that the camera angle exaggerates the appearance just a little bit. I have a 1990 riser where the arrow shaft also runs off the corner, so to speak. Those risers are cut to center, so the diameter of the arrow shaft will offset it a bit. Mine shoots pretty sweet, how about yours?
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thanks guys one more pic
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1010351.jpg)
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Something is definitely not right.Like turkey522 said,you should be able to sight down the string,centering it on the belly side of the riser and tell quickly where the problem is.
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It looks to me like the arrows Dia is big and that the bow may not be cut to center. The addition of the leather strike plate puts the arrow out farther FROM center and forces it to be on the angle noticed. If you can't see an obvious limb twist the bow is fine
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I had an A riser that was the same way. I posted pics of it a long time ago. The riser broke shortly after.
Here is what mine looks like now.
(http://i453.photobucket.com/albums/qq253/OBXarcher/100_0386.jpg)
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My B handle looks like almost that w/ my large diameter cedars.
Since then I've switched to narrower carbons and raised the brace height, slightly different angle, but still a bit of one.
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Something is DEFINITELY wrong. I'm guessing a twisted limb or both limbs.
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I have one exactly like that. I was told by a shop owner that it happened all of the time. The fixturing to put the end clamps on the riser was a little sloppy at Bear and if the operator didn't pay attention it would come out like this. It used to be you had two options. You could send it back to Bear and they would replace it, or you could try putting shims under one side of the limb base on both limbs to try and turn the limbs. The last one never worked for me and I don't want to return it. It shoots just fine but it looks wierd.
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Send it back! If they will replace it you will be much better off.
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I have / had quite a few of the Bear TD's and have never seen that issue.
Is limb twist a possibility as others have said? Does the bow stay strung when shooting?
I would be very leary until I got some answers.
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Now I'm afraid to look at mine! It would bug me a lot. I'm glad it shoots for you.
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OK ... the bow shoot fine for me co's i'm not a very good shooter and i know it so i never go over 15 yards ... the limbs look not twisted ... if i try to send it back do you have an idea about who i've to contact fix it in the BEAR company ?
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After reading Biancijon's message, I say send the bow back to Bear Archery.
Just call Bear's customer service department and then who ever you talk to at Bear, get their name, telephone number, extension number, email address, etc.
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That would bug me! Moving the strike plate forward and using skinny arrows will help, but not that much. How old is it?
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Never own or seen a Bear takedown riser.Trying learn something here if I should ever acquire one in the future.One question looking at Kibok&Ko pic and at the pic OBXarcher posted why is the riser narrower at the shelf on one than the other.Maybe I am just imaging this,just looks awful thin on Kibok bow.
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the arrow on the pics it's 5/16 carbon express heritage arrow, not a big 23/64 cedar shaft !
Of course i'm not the original owner and i hope the Bear staff can do something, i just contact also Brandon stahl of Rose Oak archery i'think he have a very good experience of this type of bow !
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It doesn't have twisted limbs.I got one of the first A riser bows when they were re-introduced.It is just not cut to center.My first riser had to be replaced for other reasons but the second one was cut the same way.You just need to tune it for that and use lighter spined arrows which can be a good thing.Since there is extra thickness there,it also makes it stronger.I don't know how they are cut now but that is how they were made then.I talked to Dale Karch of 3Rivers Archery about it,back then.that is who I bought from.Many long bows are cut like that.
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I looked at mine while I was out shooting and it's almost exactly like yours,which surprised me because I'd never noticed it before.It shoots just fine so I wouldn't worry about yours.Keep in mind though,if you use the point of your arrow to aim you will shoot left.
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Originally posted by bianchijon:
I have one exactly like that. I was told by a shop owner that it happened all of the time. The fixturing to put the end clamps on the riser was a little sloppy at Bear and if the operator didn't pay attention it would come out like this. It used to be you had two options. You could send it back to Bear and they would replace it, or you could try putting shims under one side of the limb base on both limbs to try and turn the limbs. The last one never worked for me and I don't want to return it. It shoots just fine but it looks wierd.
Hello five Bears, whith your answer and the answer of bianchijon i'm Lost now .... :confused: :help:
The gentleman who sell me the bow is a very honnest person so i wish that your answer is the good one .... to just go on shooting and hunting with this bow like before last WE where somebody told me "your bow got a big problem !!!) !
MAy be 3 Rivers can help about this ?
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I don’t think Bear would do anything about this bow. The warranty is only for one year to the original owner. A call to Bear would also be fairly expensive for a person living in France. I have seen more than once my Bear Dealer placed on hold for over a half hour trying to get answers for me concerning something as straight forward as delivery time.
Turkey522 picked out something interesting; if the sight window were cut a little too much at the back it would show an exaggerated angle on the shelf.
Both of my TD’s show this shelf angle syndrome. I thought it to just be the nature of the beast. I have shot the 1990 B-Handle for 21 years without problems and there is no reason it won’t be a great shooter in another 30 years. The new 2011 A-Handle coupled with some Rose Oak limbs is also a joy to shoot.
1990
(http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii322/Blackstick-photos/Bows/Custom%20Kodiak%20Take%20Down%20B%20Handle/ShelfCut008.jpg)
2011
(http://i548.photobucket.com/albums/ii322/Blackstick-photos/Bows/CKTD%20-%202011%20A%20handle/ShelfCut009.jpg)
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Look how thin the front overlay is on Kibok&ko's bow ...I think it is the way the sight window was shaped. My A supreme is similar...shoots great.
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Upon closer inspection of the second photo and my rug.. the wear is very similar although not what i would have guessed. Kinda diagonal . My bows bareshaft perfectly and still show that wear.
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My old riser is slightly less angled than "Blacksticks" photos. Though not as much, it's still not flush. Never noticed till now but I'm the second owner and I've been shooting it for over 12 years with no problems (wood and carbons).
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thank you gentleman's for your Help ! effectively i think Bear CO will not do much about it ..... what i can see on your pics about my riser is much thiner than the other one i can see on pics ... may be for tha reason the angle of the arrow look so big !
The bow shoot well for my appreciation, i 've only one thing about it it's a vibration in the riser when i'm shooting with it !
if it's definitly not a problem with the way the Latch were fixing by the Bear Operator it's perhaps because the small A riser can't deal completely with N°3 limbs , what do you think ?
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I can hear the compass vibrate at times when I shoot ? ?
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My A riser has a set of '71 #3 limbs and it is the quietest shooting bow that I own.
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Originally posted by kuch:
I can hear the compass vibrate at times when I shoot ? ?
:biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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Please, any other pics on the overlay from the A riser / 3 Rivers special Built from the 2000 something years ?
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As said previously, the pix angle tends to exaggerate the angle. However, it's fairly typical for any cut to center recurve. Add a piece of leather for a strike plate, and it's 1/16 to 1/8-inch from center. IMO, that's a good distance from center for finger released arrows. The long shelf magnifies the angle, but it's pretty common on any similarly designed riser.
kibok: If the bow is vibrating at release, you may be shooting arrows that are too light and/or your brace height may be too low. I'd suspect the latter. If your limbs can handle it, try a fast flite type string. They're not only quieter and faster, they reduce limb vibration as well.
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hello Orion, for my 12/ 13 routine it's true i'm shooting only 10 grs / pounds with the BEar but the brace heigt is good also ... may be i'm too use to shoot my heavy ironwood BW ...
unfortunatly the limbs are not FF compatibles .. i' me going to try to take other pics and personaly i never saw that before
on this one ou can see the Knock set
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1020997.jpg)
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same angle knock set with the arrow
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1030012.jpg)
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and if you want to look "straight" to the riser here is the result ...
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1030011.jpg)
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from back there everything look ok
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1020998.jpg)
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kibok: 10 gpp is a pretty good weight. I wouldn't call that a light arrow.
A low brace height also accentuates the problem/arrow angle on the riser. What is your brace height? A bear owner's manual I have recommends a brace height of 7.75-8.75 inches for an A riser and 7-8 inches for a B riser. The higher the brace height, the more the arrow will straighten out on the riser. I hope that makes sense. It sure looks like your brace height is too low.
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I had two sets of Gainesville limbs that did the same thing to the centershot of the bow. A set of #1's and a set of #3's. Flip the bow over and sight down the string to see if they are in the center of the limbs. The two sets I had, that I bought used, had a hook in the limb right at the transition from the limb butt into the working area of the limb. Was a bad setup when they glued up and finished the limbs at the factory. Sold both sets with full discloser of what the problem with them was, and both buyers told me they couldn't see a problem with them. But there was. One set was so bad the fletchings on my arrows in the quiver would hit the limb on the shot. Here's what you should see if the alignment is correct.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e173/Yellowdog3822/P8240659.jpg)
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I checked my Bears[Super Kodiaks] and they have some of the gap. and I checked my Bob Lee one piece Signature Hunter and it has the same arrow gap on the back and its a shooter just like my Bears. I think all have this with some degree more or less. Some off the pictures I see here are the some of the worst. I wonder if this a just a Bear Archery problem or do all of the bows have it to some degree?
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Originally posted by Orion:
kibok: 10 gpp is a pretty good weight. I wouldn't call that a light arrow.
A low brace height also accentuates the problem/arrow angle on the riser. What is your brace height? A bear owner's manual I have recommends a brace height of 7.75-8.75 inches for an A riser and 7-8 inches for a B riser. The higher the brace height, the more the arrow will straighten out on the riser. I hope that makes sense. It sure looks like your brace height is too low.
thank you Orion, i'm use and fan to heavy arrow with EFOC, once i even wrote to Mr Fulton of BW bow to be sure that 14 grs / pound will not damage my PSA ...
For that reason the 10 grs of the arrows of the bear look like light but only for my psychologigical average habits !
On the BEar o have two strings and my brace height is between 8 /8,5 for each :cool: so it's ok
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i think more and more it's the way the riser is "open" and very thin on the overlay, the other riser you show are more "fat" on this place ... the alignement look good i'm going to make a pic like Yellow dog (thanks) to show to you
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kibok: You got me now. I'm at a loss to explain it. The bow may not be center cut. To determine if it is, measure the width of the riser up near where the latches begin. The results should be the same on the top and bottom. Then measure the thickness of the riser at the arrow shelf. Since the strike plate is already there, you will have to incorporate it into the measurement, and measure it separately and subtract it from your result. The result should be half of the riser width. If it's more than half, it's cut proud of center by whatever amount it is more than half the riser width.
If that's not the case, then misaligned limbs are the only remaining explanation that seems to work. A picture taken as yellow dog suggests will show if that is the problem. Looking forward to seeing it.
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Originally posted by Orion:
kibok: You got me now. I'm at a loss to explain it. The bow may not be center cut. To determine if it is, measure the width of the riser up near where the latches begin. The results should be the same on the top and bottom. Then measure the thickness of the riser at the arrow shelf. Since the strike plate is already there, you will have to incorporate it into the measurement, and measure it separately and subtract it from your result. The result should be half of the riser width. If it's more than half, it's cut proud of center by whatever amount it is more than half the riser width.
If that's not the case, then misaligned limbs are the only remaining explanation that seems to work. A picture taken as yellow dog suggests will show if that is the problem. Looking forward to seeing it.
Thank you Orion, i'm going to try this ...
Nobody here with a 3R A riser with a A Handle from the 2002 + Years to compare with mine ?
It's probably the way they design it i think (hope) with a very thin overlay riser, i send a message to the 3R rivers customer service yesterday for MR Karch, i'm sure they can give to us information about this may be specific design & look !
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I just recieve a pic from one of this 3 Rivers A type of the years 2000 , seRiouSly wider than mine
look
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/ktdriser-1.jpg)
strange !!! operator fantaisy or special type for mine ?
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kibok: Your riser definitely looks skinnier through the side plate/ arrow shelf area. However, it would have to be the same width at the latches to accept the limbs, which are all standardized to the same width.
A thinner riser, side to side, would not necessarily lead to the substantial offset you see with your arrow. It would only if they didn't cut it to center to retain strength in the grip area. However, it looks like they still cut your riser to center, thus the extreme thinness of the arrow plate portion of the riser.
You can lessen the offset a little by using thinner strike plate material, and moving it forward a little. Probably not necessary though because you said the bow was already shooting well for you. It just takes a little less arrow spine for the greater offset angle so the arrow bends appropriately around the riser.
Would still be interested in seeing a picture like the one Yellow dog took to check for limb alignment. A few years ago, I was going to buy one of the newer takedowns from a fella. In examining it, I discovered it was a "narrow riser" version like yours. Strung up, the string just didn't seem to line up properly on the riser. The limbs didn't look twisted, but yet the string didn't bisect the bow like it should have. I examined that bow for more than an hour and couldn't figure out why. I didn't buy the bow as a result.
I think Yellow dog may have the answer.
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Hello kibok&ko,
Your riser is similar to mine in riser thickness, it is an 05 3 rivers, bought second hand. It shoots well with its fastflight no1 bear limbs.I will also pick up some rose oak no3's when I get some spare cash.
What I have found playing with the camera is that I can get an arrow angle just like yours if I hold the camera left hand side of the arrow. The pic below was taken from above the arrow.
I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Looking at the pic from 3 rivers, I would say our risers are just as thick in the middle, and cut to the same centre, just more radiused across the width, hence the exagerated arrow angle.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/andyabersoch/DSCN16271.jpg)
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I don't own any BEAR equipment but I have shot a few Super K's. Not one of them looked like this to any extent. I would notice that right off as it would bug the living daylights out of me. BUT...they wern't take downs. Which...if the design is similar I would expect the same look and feel between the two models.
As such...I would have a serious look at the limbs and pockets. Is it possible to swap the upper and lower limbs? If so try it and see it the problem corrects itself or moves in the other direction...if so you know the problem is in the limbs. Not twisted but perhaps cut improperly or to fit into a specific pocket.
If no improvement in swapping then see if you can find a way to see if the pockets on the riser are cut "square". (I don't know how to describe what I visualizing). That may prove difficult as you need something to square off of. The factory would set the handle up in a fixture for this.
I hope this makes sense.
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It is my opinion that this bow is not right. I have seen and owned a lot of bows. An arrow should not fit on the shelf like that. You can explain camera angles all day, but the fact is the limbs and string are not in proper alignment with the riser. I would bet that the riser was cut incorrectly where the latches attach and as a result, the latches are not in proper position.
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Originally posted by kibok&ko:
Hello Guys, i have a question about this old Bear TD
Look please at the position/ angle of the arrow on the shelf
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1010357.jpg)
Is that OK for this type of old bow or is it a twist limbs problem ?
Thank you / David
Hi David.
I have a modern A riser like yours and the arrow situation was the same. It drove me crazy!
It shot ok once I got in tune to the bow....BUT,
being a perfectionist,
I simply did not like it.
I filed the riser window slightly past center and while I was at it, I lowered and crowned the shelf and then put on a sweet finish using fullerplast.
I will dig it out and post some pics for you once the hurricane comes and goes :scared:
It's still a Bear T/D and a great bow!.........Philip
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Originally posted by Cherokee Scout:
Send it back! If they will replace it you will be much better off.
I agree with this......get it fixed, and fixed right.
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Originally posted by Yellow Dog:
I had two sets of Gainesville limbs that did the same thing to the centershot of the bow. A set of #1's and a set of #3's. Flip the bow over and sight down the string to see if they are in the center of the limbs. The two sets I had, that I bought used, had a hook in the limb right at the transition from the limb butt into the working area of the limb. Was a bad setup when they glued up and finished the limbs at the factory. Sold both sets with full discloser of what the problem with them was, and both buyers told me they couldn't see a problem with them. But there was. One set was so bad the fletchings on my arrows in the quiver would hit the limb on the shot. Here's what you should see if the alignment is correct.
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e173/Yellowdog3822/P8240659.jpg)
hello Yellow dog Thank for your pic , look a mine , that look OK for me
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1030068.jpg)
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Originally posted by Wolfkiss:
Hello kibok&ko,
Your riser is similar to mine in riser thickness, it is an 05 3 rivers, bought second hand. It shoots well with its fastflight no1 bear limbs.I will also pick up some rose oak no3's when I get some spare cash.
What I have found playing with the camera is that I can get an arrow angle just like yours if I hold the camera left hand side of the arrow. The pic below was taken from above the arrow.
I don't think you have anything to worry about.
Looking at the pic from 3 rivers, I would say our risers are just as thick in the middle, and cut to the same centre, just more radiused across the width, hence the exagerated arrow angle.
(http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn273/andyabersoch/DSCN16271.jpg)
hello Andy , thank you for you pic and your help , i think also now it's ok , just the overlay is so thin that the angle look specialy "wierd" ...
special order or special design or a big bite of a grinder under control for a second ? we will never now probably , i ask to 3R customer service if they have an idea or if it was a special design ... so far no answer ...
Look Andy i'm almost sure "mine" is thiner ...
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1030011-1.jpg)
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Kibok: It could be camera angle again, but it looks like your upper limb is tilted a little to the left. The string on the lower limb seems to bisect the lower latch, as it should. So should the string on the upper limb bisect the upper latch, but it seems to be a bit left of center. If the limb it tilted in that direction (and it could still be a camera angle issue) it would tend to move the string/nock to the left, actually reducing the angle of the arrow on the shelf.
If it works for you, time to stop worrying about it. As I said before, can always move the strike plate forward a little and/or reduce its thickness to reduce the angle a little. Good luck.
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hello Orion it's just a camera angle i tried putting arrows on the limbs and it's ok !
i'm going to follow your advice to reduce the thickness of the strike plate !
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Thanks for ruining my day! My 2011 A riser exhibits this too, but is not nearly as bad. Not sure why I never noticed it before! Anyone know what the fix is? Send it back? Have Bowdoc carve on it?
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bswear: The bows are cut to center, but the side plate is not radiused much back to belly. The strike plate adds about 1/8-inch more from center. Additionally, the leading edge of the strike plate is usually near the rear/belly of the side plate, accentuating the arrow angle on the bow. Thinning the side plate and moving it forward will reduce the problem a bit.
Keep in mind, though, that it's pretty much just a visual thing. If self-bows and other bows cut to center also had such a long side-plate/rest, one would see the same evidence on their shelf rugs. The key to good arrow flight is still the same, of course, selecting the correct spine.
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Orion
Thanks. I am shooting a Bear Weather rest and it is pretty thick and I have the rest center located directly above the deepest park of the grip.
I am not thinking about it any more. but it may be an excuse if I mmmmmmiss!
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Originally posted by Orion:
bswear: The bows are cut to center, but the side plate is not radiused much back to belly. The strike plate adds about 1/8-inch more from center. Additionally, the leading edge of the strike plate is usually near the rear/belly of the side plate, accentuating the arrow angle on the bow. Thinning the side plate and moving it forward will reduce the problem a bit.
Keep in mind, though, that it's pretty much just a visual thing. If self-bows and other bows cut to center also had such a long side-plate/rest, one would see the same evidence on their shelf rugs. The key to good arrow flight is still the same, of course, selecting the correct spine.
Orion is right , d'ont worry and on mine it's look worst probably co's the Bear operator fall in sleep on this riser with the machine doing the job ... and the result so far is "just" visual
it's not a special design ordered by 3R i just recieved the confirmation from 3R Mr J.KArch last night. unfortunatly when the riser was made and sell nobody noticed this very thin and not very usual part of the riser.
i'm going to use a thiner palte and hope finaly this will not bring me to a break down one day specialy if i change for FF limbs , What do you think guy's ?
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a friend of mine shooting with this WE , he shoot 3 under persoal i use split
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn293/lossogwan/P1030180.jpg)