Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: fazhu on September 01, 2011, 06:39:00 PM
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Hello all. Why do people shoot "off the shelf"? I can understand an increased reliability but what are other reasons that you shelfers have? I ask the question because I have been shooting feathers off the shelf but am wondering about vanes and a little plastic rest. Opinions? Thanks.
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It brings the arrow closer to my ehand and makes it easier for me to shoot where i look/point.
That plus the better reliabilty are enough reasons for me.
Also asked the other way round: "Why not?" :D
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Originally posted by saumensch:
It brings the arrow closer to my ehand and makes it easier for me to shoot where i look/point.
That plus the better reliabilty are enough reasons for me.
Also asked the other way round: "Why not?" :D
X2 :thumbsup:
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x3 close to hand and simplicity
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Less to worry about and seems to work just fine...
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All but one of my bows shoot fine off the shelf. Simple is good so that's how I leave them. One 52" bow however, will only shoot well for me with an elevated rest; so an elevated rest it is on that bow. Guess I just don't shoot well enough to see any difference in accuracy in the 20 yard range.
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Just 'Cuz I Do!! hahaha Warning My Friend...Vanes & Trad. Bows is a BAD MIX! I never had any luck with them, even off a Raised Rest.
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Closer to hand and can't come unglued or fall off or break.
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Try it,you might like them in wet conditions.
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Paul Schaefer used an elevated rest and plactic vanes. He is about the epitome of what I hold to be a true hunter and archer. It is all about shooting accurately. If you find that shooting off an elevated rest with vanes makes you a better shot the why would you not do it? Those who have trouble getting vanes to fly well just haven't got to the point where they have the correct combination of correct arrow spine, vane size or type. Vanes, elevated rests and trad bows are very compatible if you are willing to take the time to get it right.
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I shoot off the shelf because I want to and I can...
Same reason I shoot wooden arrows
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I'm with Bill 100% !!!!! :readit:
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My arrow never falls off the shelf like it would with an elevated rest when I'm stalking javelina.
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Night Wing...then, I would say, your experience with elevated rests is limited. That's an assumption I am making but when I was shooting off the shelf an arrow fell off the shelf as I was taking the bow off of a bow hook in my stand, and almost cost me a 10 point buck. I was fortunate the arrow did not hit the stand and that acorns were falling as the deer just looked in my direction thinking he heard an acorn fall (another assumption). I was able to get another arrow on the string and shot him thru the heart. Arrows do, indeed, fall off the shelf. After that incident I got out my old Sta Jac Arrow cinch and it has been on all my bows ever since.
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All my Recurves are set up with an elevated rest, mainly because I listened to Paul Schafer years ago. I have never looked back or regreted the move.
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Why? I shoot a longbow and with the arrow on the shelf it allows for me to have the arrow down on my hand and I can feel the arrow on my trigger finger of my bow hand. With the shooting method I am using that has advantages for me.
Elevated rest can work well on recurves for the mentioned resons, improved clearance, accuracy, etc.
Jack Harrison uses brush rests on his longbows and describes how to instll them in his book. They are actually pretty cool looking an look functional.
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An elevated rest will forgive a less than perfect release because there's a small, flexible contact point. Mine improved arrow flight dramatically, and consequently my accuracy. Here's my set up. I believe my arrows fall off much less than on the shelf.
(http://i1030.photobucket.com/albums/y366/COlongbow/IMAG0066.jpg)
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I agree 100% with Bill C's posts.
I switched to an elevated rest after reading everything I could ever find about Paul Shafer's style of bowhunting. Best changes I have made to date and I have no plans to ever go back to off the shelf. I even have Bear Weather Rest set up on my Morrison Longbows after talking to Dave Windauer (Shafer Silvertip Bows Bowyer) at Denton Hill one year. He showed me his longbow set up this way and after using this same method on my set up, it shoots amazingly well, even at long range.
Guess to answer your question in reverse, that's why I DON'T shoot off the shelf. Steve
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I try to shoot the few bows I am fortunate to glam onto from our traditional past the way they left the factory.
The ones with feather rests like Traps are indeed shooters and I seem to shoot THAT type of elevated (although some dont consider it so) a "bit" better but as in most things in traditional archery it is not ONLY about "making it the best possible".
I shoot off the shelf quite well and far and above "needed" for hunting accuracy at the ranges I shoot and have to say I agree with the simplicity and dependability for hunting.
Off a NEW bow, shoot as you wish, for me its mostly about tradition and repect for the bowyer of decades past and a rememberance of hunting methods then.
I shoot them as close to original condition as I can. It's not odd to find a time era accurately made or an original arrow from that same time blessing my quiver out hunting as well.
Both work, enough said from me on that.
God Bless
Slowbowke
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I always had trouble with arrows coming off the rest, or being really noisy on my arrow.
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Jake: Wish I could see your set up and spend some time with you. It ain't that tough to do it and do it well.
As I read threads like this I keep seeing phrases like Slowebroke's..."I shoot off the shelf quite well and far and above "needed" for hunting accuracy at the ranges I shoot and have to say I agree with the simplicity and dependability for hunting"...and I think to myself...can you really be TOO accurate? I really don't understand the difference between real accuracy and "hunting accuracy". Can someone please explain? Is the goal to shoot as poorly as possible but just good enough to get the job done? Hitting where you are aiming is no different in a FITA tournament than in a hunting situation. And I would argue that in the hunting situation, because you are taking a life, the best possible accuracy you are capable of is essential. Is my thinking on this realistic or am I missing a bigger point? To me, I want the tracking after the shot to be simple. Getting the arrow to where I want it to be takes time, work, practice and experience. There is nothing simple about shooting accurately...except maybe years of doing it so that it feels natural.
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I prefer an elevated rest on my BW recurve. I do OK off the shelf with my BW longbow, and get great accuracy out to about 45-50 yards. Probably further, but I've never shot much beyond that. I believe that the merits of shooting off an elevated rest supercede those of shooting off the shelf, and it becomes obvious when using high-speed photography to compare the two.
I hear a lot about "getting the arrow closer to the bow hand", but I don't go for it. My eye always looks subconsciously down the shaft; I don't "point" off the web of my bow hand.
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I have been throwing arrows down range and hunting for a long time. I have always liked the simple Hoyt and Bear rest. Never had a problem with arrows falling off the shelf or draw noise. But I do get better arrow flight and groups.
As for the fact that the arrow released off the bow shelf is about 3/8th of an inch closer to the hand than a raised rest, which allows you to shoot better, let's get real. You should then be praticing more.
Both type of setups work good. Just tune your arrows to your bow setup and pratice.
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Cause I can
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And I can shoot mechanical or dull broadheads...but I don't!
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I suspect that if Fred Asbell hadn't reintroduced the off the shelf mentality, we'd all be shooting off some kind of elevated rest and doing quite well with it.
For those who are struggling with arrow flight or accuracy it's a simple thing to stick one on your bow and try it out. You might be surprised.
You're only gonna be out a couple of bucks and it could lead to shooting a couple of bucks.
To add to Bill Carlson's comments... if your accuracy is more important on targets than animals then you are probably a target archer, vice versa if your accuracy on game is more important you are a bowhunter.
I personally want to shoot as accurately as possible regardless of the target.
P.S.... if you are struggling with bow tuning you might give an elevated rest a try. You'll be pleasantly surprised.
:thumbsup:
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Shelf? Elevated rest? Huh, I thought thats what my knuckle was for!
Accuracy is what you do the best. be it knuckle, shelf or rest.
We owe it to the game we hunt to be as accurate as is humanly possible. On the target range we owe it to ourselves to and the group we shoot with to be as accurate as possible.
Have a good season, and Keep your Heart and Arrows True!
Johnny/JAG
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I understand what you are saying about accuracy. Shoot the most accurate set up, period? Should we drill a hole through a yew self-bow, put in a brass bushing for a Berger button and cavalier rest? Probably not, but someone has probably tried it. Not fitting to that style of equipment, and really probably not going to improve the accuracy of that style of equipment.
Some like an elevated rest and are more accurate with that. Really there are other issues than the rest to tune a bow and arrow combination. Longbows are shot off the shelf, by and large. Rest are more an exception than the rule in longbows. Longbows lends itself to that method of holding the arrow.
For target accuracy look at some of the scores that Horace Ford shot that stood for so long in the FITA. He was shooting off his knuckle with a string follow english yew self bow. He was an exceptional archer, but accuracy can be obtained if the archer is willing to work at the tune of their bow and arrow combination regardless of arrowrest.
We all should strive towards an accurate bow and arrow set-up. As a archer, whether that is at game or on the course. It is just so much more enjoyable of a sport to shoot a properly tuned bow and arrow combination, and you limit yourself so much without it.
On the other hand, a recurve can be shot either way, and for many including myself, it is much easier to find an accurate tune with a flipper or brush rest on that style of bow.
You can achieve great arrow flight and accuracy with both methods.
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I prefer off the shelf on my recurves, just a preference not a necessity.
When I had my Hoyt Dorado I eventually added the elevated rest on it & my shooting with that bow improved greatly but the love affair of a metal risor wore off & I was ready to let her go.
Shooting off of a shelf or a elevated rest is more of a preference to most depending on what they want to achieve, I can shoot with the bow nearly canted all the way to the left & still not have the arrow fall off the shelf or rest, it is all in how you grip the string & be consistent in the grip each time you prepare to & follow through your shot sequence.
Elevated rests especially the ones that have some adjustment to them give the archer more flexibility to tuning than on the shelf but after that the advantage is gone because it is still up to the archer with the proper arrow to make the shot count.
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I still use a Hoyt flipper rest just as I did back in the early 60's before traditional archery.
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There are other factors to consider in a hunting bow. Just sticking an elevated rest on a bow may lead to other issues. Flipper rest arms can get hung on packs, clothing, etc. The arms can get bent out of shape, and over time will wear through. I once shot a springy rest so much that it wore the wire into! Berger buttons can get froze up and dont do well filled with mud if you drop your bow (stuff happens hunting!). Adhesives can fail on stick on rest in wet conditons, especially over time. I remember a picture of Paul Schafer with a wonderful whitetail and you can see the surgical adhesive tape holding his arrow rest on the bow. Durability and being able to weather the elements are important considerations in the set up of a hunting bow.
Here is an idea for a brush rest that comes from Sergio here on TG. It is durable, dependable, and give the "advantage" of the elevated rest. I use barge cement of 3-M adhesive on the calf hair to cover and reinforce the brush rest from coming off in the elements. It is a quiet arrow rest to shoot. It also looks cool on a recurve.
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n559/jeffbschulz/007-1-1.jpg)
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The point about the arrow being closer to the bow hand has to do with left and right impacts. If you do not cant the bow the same way every shot the further from the pivot point (web of hand on a high wrist grip) the arrow is the more likely to miss some left to right. Since I hunt primaraly I can't be certain that I will be able to cant the bow the same way on all shot opportunities. This distance away from the pivot is one of the reasons I believe that longbow shooters struggle sometimes with accuracy as the heel down grip makes the pivot as much as 3" away from the arrow when shot off the shelf. Well thats what I think anyway.
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Originally posted by ChrisM:
The point about the arrow being closer to the bow hand has to do with left and right impacts. If you do not cant the bow the same way every shot the further from the pivot point (web of hand on a high wrist grip) the arrow is the more likely to miss some left to right. Since I hunt primaraly I can't be certain that I will be able to cant the bow the same way on all shot opportunities. This distance away from the pivot is one of the reasons I believe that longbow shooters struggle sometimes with accuracy as the heel down grip makes the pivot as much as 3" away from the arrow when shot off the shelf. Well thats what I think anyway.
I believe that is why I like an elevated rest on a recurve bow. With an arrowrest on a recurve, it is a similiar relationship between the bowhand, arrow, and the heel down position of my longbow vs a recurve grip.
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gadgets... gadgets... gadgets... everyone has their own tolerance for gadgets.. :D
Mine don't include flippers, Bergers, brushes or even feather rests.. I strain my tolerance with velcro...
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YIKES!! I didnt Aim to Stir a Pot O' Poop with my Comment!! Just going by what I have been TOLD for Years, Ok?? Not Doubting what Your saying One Bit, I was just Told "Vanes for Wheelies, Feathers for Traditional Equipment." :biglaugh:
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My real concern is not that anyone shoots off the shelf or an elevated rest. It's about obtaining the best accuracy. What the h..l is "hunting accuracy" and how is it different than any other kind of accuracy? The implication is that it is less than perfect or less than one is really capable of achieving given the time and effort to truly tune equipment and practice good fundamentals.
Dragonheart.... never had a plunger freeze up on me or get full of mud when I dropped my bow. Mine are made of brass and stainless steel and have never failed me in any way. Cheap ones would do that but not the ones I use.
I guess the real question is, when do you feel satisfied that you have achieved the highest level of accuracy you are capable of? And if you are having trouble getting there how willing are you to try something that might get you there? Is "hunting accuracy" a real thing? I really don't get it...accuracy is accuracy and I don't understand why some resist even trying something that just might make a big difference.
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All I shoot are L/B's, I like to keep things simple, I can't even imagine some other kind of rest other than the shelf, let alone plastic vanes, but thats just me, the shelf with feathers works just fine, why change, not to mention, simplicity and of course more Traditional, but again, thats just me ...
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It’s as simple as this… one should be able to hit a dime at twenty yards if they practice enough and their equipment is well suited to that game, but you do not preclude those who can only hit a sliver dollar simply because they suck by your standards..
The kill zone on a deer is what? … 8” or so… and if someone can consistently put their first arrow of the day in that circle, should they be banned from hunting because they lack the ability, time, patience, experience or knowledge to hit that dime..
As for all them gadgets, I’ve been there and I got t-shirts and tax returns to prove it.. You don’t need the gadgets to shoot well; they just make it easier… I remember when the Berger button first came out.. there were a bunch of bows drilled and brass plugs installed but the top shooters scores didn’t skyrocket to perfect simply because the screwed a plunger button into their riser… What happened was it became easier to tune an arrow to fit the bow… Easier is the key word here.. not better..
Kind of like paper tuning…. which was invented by lazy people who didn’t want to spend the time to tune the old way…
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Wow! Thanks for all the great response everyone. I think I will try a rest but as for the vanes....I just don't feel 'em. Kinda like fiberglass saddlebags on a Harley. Thanks again.
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Only the individual can decide how many of those "add ons" he needs to be proficient with his hunting weapon. The accuracy discussion is a whole other topic in itself.
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Some bows, especially older, shorter recurves, were tillered to shoot off an elevated rest, and if you shoot off the shelf without building it up, the arrow will be pointed noticeably downward when the nocking point is set to the right place. I either use an elevated rest or build up the shelf on bows designed that way. I prefer the built-up rest because it's less likely to succumb to Murphy's Law.
Getting the arrow as close to your hand as possible does make for a more forgiving setup for hunting, when the bow can be set up that way. Paraphrasing what ChrisM said, it allows more variation in form under hunting conditions without compromising accuracy.
The bow's design should determine how it's set up, not a preconceived notion based on something someone else said.
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If an elevated rest is a gadget and that somehow offends anyone maybe they should fill in their sight window with wood putty and get rid of the shelf/gadget.
That's "Traditional"!! Though I haven't spoken to the guy who makes those rules.
I was there when the "Berger" button came on the scene and scores DID improve... Vic Berger was kicking some serious butt with it.
No solid rest will ever be as forgiving as a flexible rest I don't care what kind of bow it is.
Paper tuning invented by lazy people? Or could it have been they were looking for a way to maximize their bows efficiency.
Shelf "rest" more traditional than elevated "rest". That's just bull pucky!!
I've hunted all over this country and Canada with a cushion plunger and elevated rest without a single failure of either and I've hunted in every imaginable weather, climatic, and geographical condition.
If a person is worried about the reliability of "add on's" they need to be shooting off of bare wood or their finger.... but then what if you break your finger.
This discussion is not about what's best. It's about options. I'm over it!!
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Vic was kicking butt before the plunger... The plunger just made it easier..
Use a rest, don't use a rest, use a button, don't use a button, shoot off the shelf or a knuckle.. it don't make a whit to me until someone tells me I'm not doing the right thing because I choose to shoot as I do... or that I owe it to the animal to do it their way...
Oh... and I stand by the paper tuning comment.. it may work.. but it doesn't work better than the old ways... it's just easier to shoot thru paper. Just like the plunger and raised rests.. they make it easier to tune arrows because they allow a wider range of spine by adjusting the pressure... shelves and center cut strike plates do the same.. make it easier...
Easier... just not necessarily better.. unless you consider easier... to be better
but then you do shoot archery without cams don't you..
Each one of us has the right to choose how and what gadgets we want to use (within the applicable laws of the land) and those who choose a different path should not be judged by another's standard of equipment..
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Off the shelf on my bows.
There was a time that I did shoot off an elevated rest because I lived in the rainy SE Alaska and shot vanes. I gave up the elevated rest (and vanes) after wounding a nice buck when my arrow ended up on the top of the rest against the riser instead of on the finger. Easy thing to do if you shoot with your bow canted, which I do.
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In this difficult modern world of limited time, tight schedules, rush hour traffic, and limited hunting and shooting areas, there are a lot of us who are too busy to spend hours and hours fighting to make someone else's definition of "traditional" work. Take a look at the posts on this site, and consider all the guys who are lost, who can't group arrows worth a hoot, and can't take a shot over 15 yards without being irresponsible. Inconsistent or poor form, and the unpredictability of hunting situations makes it that much harder to use equipment that is unforgiving... yet some do it just for the sake of someone else's idealogy.
I've had the advantage of having a dad who was meticulous and scientific about form and release, and passed that on to his boys. I didn't have to learn by trial and error, yet I still have trouble because archery is a demanding sport. I often wonder if there aren't a lot of us who have learned to find satisfaction in other aspects of the sport (I.e., the great outdoors, the graceful arc of the arrow, trying to dress up like Fred Bear, etc.)... because we MISS what we're shooting at so often!
If we had to use these bows to put meat on the table, most of us would be skinny. And upon learning that an elevated release is more conducive to consistent arrow flight, we'd not be so idealogical about it.
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I shoot off the shelf because it's there.