Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Divinecedar on September 30, 2011, 12:09:00 AM
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I'm not sure whether this has been covered here, but do you prefer a razor sharp edge (stone & strop in my case) or a micro-serrated edge from a file? Why so?
I was reading Saxton Pope's "Hunting with the Bow and Arrow" and became curious about this. BTW, if you haven't read Pope's book it is an utterly fascinating text on traditional archery and can be found in its entirety online (free of charge):
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8084
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I generally use a file and/or a diamond file on broadheads. I can get them hair popping sharp that way and they will also pass the rubber band test. Most importantly, they kill stuff dead and leave a good blood trail if you poke a hole fairly low. High lung hits won't bleed outside much no matter what you use or how you sharpen it.
I like to use files because I can easily carry it with me either in my pack on the pocket of my bow quiver. I can touch up a broadhead with a few strokes and be ready to go. The diamond file also doubles as a knife sharpener, and it works on either two blade or three blade broadheads. It is the best way I have found to sharpen Woodsman broadheads.
You will find a multitude of "reasons" why one method or the other is best. I say, use the one YOU can do best. Either will kill critters.
BTW: Fred Bear preferred a file sharpened broadhead, and I believe he was able to take a critter or two! So it's good enough for me.
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Lots of previous posts about this. It is usually a contentious issue and great for arguments during the off-season. Check out the search function.
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I prefer the stone & strop. If I have to touch up a head all I need is my leather belt or the back of my notepad. No need to carry a file.
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take a look at this.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000002
that’s how i do it now.... i know a lot of people like a smooth surgical sharp blade. i don't. if you know a surgeon ask them why they use what they do. here's a hint, it ain't what we want as bowhunters.
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Originally posted by Blaino:
take a look at this.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000002
that’s how i do it now.... i know a lot of people like a smooth surgical sharp blade. i don't. if you know a surgeon ask them why they use what they do. here's a hint, it ain't what we want as bowhunters.
That's pretty much what I do too, except I have never done the 45 degree stroke to intentionally serrate the blade. I've never had a problem with the blade dulling from shooting an animal...with Deltas anyway. I find the WW to be softer and easier to flat-spot the edge. That's one reason I stick with Deltas.
I agree with you though. I don't want surgical sharp. I'm trying to kill stuff, not save its life!
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I was reading Saxton Pope's "Hunting with the Bow and Arrow" and became curious about this. BTW, if you haven't read Pope's book it is an utterly fascinating text on traditional archery and can be found in its entirety online (free of charge):
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/8084
Yes, it is a fascinating read. I will also note, if you have a Kindle or other device that supports Kindle software the book is free for these devices from Amazon!
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I use a Razor Edge guide and a Hewlett Jewelstik followed by leather stropping. I started out with this rig for Simmons Tree Sharks but now use it on all heads.
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I am into free! I will have to get that on my Kindle and take it with me today headed out for the bow opener. That would be a great way to spend the evening.
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David,,, I'm currently sharpening 3 tree sharks now.. I need your opinion on the edge your getting because I'm using the simmons ceramic rods which are similer to what your using,,,,, how is the pentration with that edge? I'm going to try these from a 47# treadway with a total arrow weight of 480Gr I think (29" heritage 90/200gr treeshark 3/5" parabolics) just getting a tad nervous and 2nd guess these because of the lighter bow weight than I normally used..
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Some heads, because they use a softer metal, should only be sharpened with a serrated or filed edge. However, a nice hard stainless steel will take and hold a razor edge going in and coming out of an animal. I've killed a lot of stuff with both and the razor edge on a harder steel gives me the quickest kills and awesome blood trails.
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so why wouldn't you want surgical sharp for hunting?
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Do you know what a surgeon does with a scalpel immediately after making the first incision in a surgery?
Throws it away and grabs another. We can't do that.
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Jerry Hill broadheads came shaving sharp when new and stayed that way for a long time with just stropping them. however, they were hard stainless steel and could really shine up a cheap file, but when sharpened with a good file and then giving them a good serration, they held on to that for a long time as well. I found that with that design, perhaps by shear chance, I got better blood trails when they were serrated. My wife's broadheads are mostly easily shaving sharp, some of my own as well. But for my single bevel Hills and my older Elgrande Grizzlies, I tend to file and serrate and they work just fine that way. There is a difference between a keen serrated edge and merely a rough edge, if in doubt get them shaving shaving sharp.
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The pros and cons on both sides have been discussed a lot and both work; whatever method you like that gives you the best edge is the one you should use.
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This is an interesting topic, anyone else have an opinion?
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I file sharpen and have had good results.
But I wouldn't dream of file sharpening a knife. My broadheads are 42-45 Rockwell - pretty soft. I think the softer steel yields a more durable edge with the file. If you are using a harder head - the fine stropped edge would be worthwhile.
Just this guy's opinion.
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Byron ferguson said surgeons have their scalpels surgically sharp so it penetrates better which is good. It reduces hemorrhaging. but we want them to hemorrhage. And it reduces scarring which is kinda of a moot point . So he prefers Fred Bear sharp. Or a rougher edge.
IMO when you cut yourself shaving it heals up fast. But if you ever cut yourself with a serrated or a rough edge it tends to be harder to stop the bleeding and does not heal as fast.
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razor sharp is best because it causes less resistance.this is the same reason i use cut on contact and prefer lighter smaller broadheads.
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I have used Eclipse 125gr heads with a 75gr insert giving me a 200 grain broadhead. These are really hard broadheads and I can get them incredibly sharp with a diamond steel hone that folds up and looks like a butterfly knife, the Red DMT. I wonder if anyone has sharpened the back half of the edges with a file, leaving them rough and honing the front portion razor sharp. That in theory would give the best of both worlds. Any thoughts?
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Now that I know how to sharpen, I get mine sharp enough to split my wife's hairs lengthwise. File sharpened works just fine, but if I have the time and skill, why not get them as sharp as possible?
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Has anyone honed the first 1" of their broadhead edge to a razors edge and left the rest "file sharp"? It seems that you would not lose the penetration associated with the honed sharpening technique and you would get to keep the clot resistant ragged cut found with the rough edge of a file sharpened point.
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When I hunted with two blade heads I would use the serrated technique described in the video until I read an article by Gene Wensel mentioning a metal checkering file. The are available through Brownell's I believe. Anyway, upon the suggestion, I used it to make the back 1/2 of my broadheads serrated and then sharpened as usual with my Lansky providing the best of both worlds and they were nasty!! I have been shooting WW's for years so those heads have been collecting dust. Maybe I'll figure out a way to do it on a 3 blade head and try that.
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bwallace wasp makes a broadhead called a buzzcut that is smooth up front and serrated in the back.i guess thats what they had in mind when they made it.the thing i have wrong with serrated is it clogs with hair and fat and causes resistance.i have read that a chipped flint edge is sharper then a scalpel because it is made by nature and is thinner then sharpened steel.if you think about it a serrated edge with its little tips should cause less drag because only the tips are cutting.im no saxton pope but he was no ishi either.
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I decided to file one side of my edge, and hone the other. Now I can have the best of both...right? :rolleyes:
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I am usually sorry when I bring up a thought that lures in the very best smart ass comments. It never fails.
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Edge Finish - A smooth, beard shaving sharp honed & stropped edge works best
- 26% advantage over smoothly filed sharp edge
- 60% advantage over serrated edges
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Brent: you have my apology. I didn't read through all the comments before posting...and I should have done that. I can easily see where you'd think I was cracking wise on your idea. That was definitely not the case. Again...my apology. Kevin
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Originally posted by Friend:
Edge Finish - A smooth, beard shaving sharp honed & stropped edge works best
- 26% advantage over smoothly filed sharp edge
- 60% advantage over serrated edges
Interesting numbers. Are these from an Ashby article?
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TaterHill Archer...Yes, they be.
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Originally posted by Mr. fingers:
Byron ferguson said surgeons have their scalpels surgically sharp so it penetrates better which is good. It reduces hemorrhaging. but we want them to hemorrhage. And it reduces scarring which is kinda of a moot point . So he prefers Fred Bear sharp. Or a rougher edge.
IMO when you cut yourself shaving it heals up fast. But if you ever cut yourself with a serrated or a rough edge it tends to be harder to stop the bleeding and does not heal as fast.
Sorry that's backwards... honed and stropped edges cause greater hemorrhaging and also limit the body's ability to clot. There's a sound physiological reason that when we nick ourselves with our shaving razors that the little nick bleeds, and bleeds, and bleeds some more.
Ron
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Put me in the honed, polished, can't be too sharp group.
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I've killed with both file sharp edges and honed and stropped. For me, the smooth stropped edge has always produced a quicker kill and shorter better blood trails. They just cut and bleed better.
Can't really compare the scalpel edge with a broadhead. Scalpels are sharpened to a very thin edge. It is very sharp but not durable, which is why they are quickly discarded. Broadheads are sharpened to a steeper angle that is almost as sharp, but much more durable. Most sharpening "studies" have found a 45 degree total angle to be about the best compromise between durable and sharp.
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For those that use a serrated edge, there is a difference between keen and merely rough. I have noticed more of a difference in blood trails with single bevel versus double bevel, when comparing the same broadhead than with shaving sharp versus a very keen serrated edge. For very hard metal shaving sharp just makes more sence. However, with heads that are 45 Rockwell, I would like to say that I have noticed an improvement over serrated, but I have not really seen that. In a number of cases I have to say that a very keen serrated edge has left blood trails a blind man could follow. It all depends on what was cut, in those cases with extreme blood trails, and short as well, arteries were completely severed. With softer heads I would go with a very keen serrated edge over a kinda sharp smooth edge, I have seen over the years when guys just get a small burr going on softer heads and call it good enough, very soon later, the burr is gone and the head is dull. Some heads, like the newer Grizzlies, do not develope a larger burr while sharpening, but when they get to that easily shaving sharp level, they stay that way longer. Most of our broadheads heads are now Grizzlies.
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Originally posted by Sharpster:
Originally posted by Mr. fingers:
Byron ferguson said surgeons have their scalpels surgically sharp so it penetrates better which is good. It reduces hemorrhaging. but we want them to hemorrhage. And it reduces scarring which is kinda of a moot point . So he prefers Fred Bear sharp. Or a rougher edge.
IMO when you cut yourself shaving it heals up fast. But if you ever cut yourself with a serrated or a rough edge it tends to be harder to stop the bleeding and does not heal as fast.
Sorry that's backwards... honed and stropped edges cause greater hemorrhaging and also limit the body's ability to clot. There's a sound physiological reason that when we nick ourselves with our shaving razors that the little nick bleeds, and bleeds, and bleeds some more.
Ron [/b]
When we nick our face it bleeds more do to the amount of capillaries in the face and soft tissue in the face. When you get cold your face will turn red, does your arm or hand do that? more capillaries = more bleeding. Its been my observation doing hundred or so autopsy's that ragged wounds loose more blood that smooth ones, ragged torn tissue separates and smooth lacerations tend to close easier.
All said a rotating broadhead impacts and still rotates during entrance causing an open wound razor or file sharp.JMHO
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I called Jack Zwickey on the phone on how to sharpen a delta. He said i was messing with it to much! He said it comes with a burr on it just knock the burr off with a file and go hunt! I sharpen ace's too, with a file they will ROLL the hair off my calf! It takes less than 3mins per head to sharpen and the head will be just as sharp a year from now too. Those fine edges seem to dull in just a day or two. Just my 2cents.
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Originally posted by lpcjon2:
Originally posted by Sharpster:
Originally posted by Mr. fingers:
Byron ferguson said surgeons have their scalpels surgically sharp so it penetrates better which is good. It reduces hemorrhaging. but we want them to hemorrhage. And it reduces scarring which is kinda of a moot point . So he prefers Fred Bear sharp. Or a rougher edge.
IMO when you cut yourself shaving it heals up fast. But if you ever cut yourself with a serrated or a rough edge it tends to be harder to stop the bleeding and does not heal as fast.
Sorry that's backwards... honed and stropped edges cause greater hemorrhaging and also limit the body's ability to clot. There's a sound physiological reason that when we nick ourselves with our shaving razors that the little nick bleeds, and bleeds, and bleeds some more.
Ron [/b]
When we nick our face it bleeds more do to the amount of capillaries in the face and soft tissue in the face. When you get cold your face will turn red, does your arm or hand do that? more capillaries = more bleeding. Its been my observation doing hundred or so autopsy's that ragged wounds loose more blood that smooth ones, ragged torn tissue separates and smooth lacerations tend to close easier.
All said a rotating broadhead impacts and still rotates during entrance causing an open wound razor or file sharp.JMHO [/b]
I wouldn't have thought that dead things would bleed much. Platelets cause clotting. They have more surfaces to cling to with ragged cuts & less surfaces on smooth cuts.
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I hone mine these days.Back when I didn't know how,I didn't.There is a science behind the bleeding and lack of clotting from a honed,polished blade but I haven't memorized it.I have talked to doctors and a pathologist about it and they agreed.
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Here is an excerpt:
"When all else is equal there's absolutely no question which
type of edge finish makes a cut that bleeds the longest and most
freely; it's the one made by the thinnest, sharpest, smoothest
edge. That's a medical and physiological fact. Why? Because the
thinner, sharper and smoother the cutting edge the less
disruption there is to the cells lining the inner wall of each
blood vessel cut. What does disruption of the blood vessel's
inner cell-lining have to do with the rate and degree of
bleeding from a cut? Disruption of these cells is what initiates
the blood's clotting process, known as coagulation.
Each vessel-lining cell that's disrupted releases the
protein prothrombin. As prothrombin comes into contact with the
blood's plasma it is converted to the enzyme thrombin. Thrombin
acts as a catalyst, converting fibrinogen in the blood into
fibrin; the final chemical reaction required for blood
coagulation. Coagulation stops or retards the rate of
hemorrhaging - exactly what the bowhunter does not want to
happen.
The 'rougher' a cutting edge is the more it mangles the
tissues, tearing rather than slicing cleanly. That means more
vessel-lining cells will be damaged, and the amount of
disruption to each damaged cell will be greater. The more cells
damaged, and the greater the damage to each cell, the greater
the amount of prothrombin released. The more prothrombin
released, the more thrombin produced. The more thrombin there
is, the more fibrinogen converted to fibrin. The more fibrin
produced the shorter the clotting time. The shorter the clotting
time, the sooner blood loss decreases and/or stops. The sooner
the bleeding subsides, the less the total blood loss."
For anyone wishing to read it in it's entirety:
http://www.tuffhead.com/ashby_pdfs/ashby%20ours/Getting%20an%20Edge%20on%20Success.pdf
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Originally posted by Blaino:
take a look at this.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000002
that’s how i do it now.... i know a lot of people like a smooth surgical sharp blade. i don't. if you know a surgeon ask them why they use what they do. here's a hint, it ain't what we want as bowhunters.
My first post is over 2 years old. I have learned a lot in thoes 2 years and have taken deer with both types of edges since....
My opinion has changed, a razor / bur free edge is best.
Truth is they both work great when delivered in the right spot.
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They both work as long as they are sharp. Use what you want. If debating bleeding facts, the post a couple up is right on. Scalpel sharp bleeds better and clots least.
Of course. . if the deer is dead in 15 seconds, not much clotting takes place.
Why would a surgeon use something that won't heal up (clot) as quickly ? Well.. it is easier to clean and care for (less microorganism concerns), it cuts cleaner and easier, and so, more precisely, it leaves less scaring (important as hell for most folks) and remember. . . doctors have a tendency to sew up the wound after they are finished, so natural clotting, closing and healing is not as much an issue.
Again, both work and lots of critters have been very well killed using both ways.
ChuckC
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My best guess is the Ashby findings are more related to penetration than overall "bleeding" or blood flow as all his work has been to find the deepest penetrating set-up. With that in mind there is certainly some obvious reasons why a smooth honed razor sharp head will out penetrate one with even the most minute serrations.
Really both have worked well for many years and for many people and the advice offered of "use what makes you most confident" is the best here for whitetail size game - or most game in north America. Most arrows are going right through without a problem so this eliminates the penetration debate and only is open for the "best Blood trail" conversation.
When bowhunting T-Rex - please use the sharpest razor honed edge on a long thin two blade. You want to be absolutely certain to get both lungs.
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I have tried both and truly prefer the smooth razor sharp edge I get from a stone and stropping either on leather or very lightly on my 1200 grit stone. A file sharpened edge is not a rough edge by any means if done right, a truly sharp file edge should be able to shave hair some but feel like it is grabbing at the hair and skin some though. After that edge is established with either a file or rough stone one can progress to smoother stones and further polish and refine the edge to get it as sharp as possible while maintaining a bevel that is not so sharp and shallow that it will collapse if bone is encountered. Remember we want the broadhead to be sharp all the way through the animal.
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I have 3 200 grain Eclipse broadheads ready to go. I sharpened each of them with a very fine mill file; plenty sharp to shave hair from my arm. I honed the first 1" of the cutting edge with a fine diamond steel and polished the honed edge to a mirror like shine with a ceramic sharpening stick. The end product is a broadhead that is very sharp throughout the entire cutting surface, with an impressively sharp cut on contact tip backed up by a more durable and ragged back section that is still shaving sharp. Starting in the morning I will have five days to try it out on a mule doe. From what I've read, it won't make much of a difference, but it will not hurt either.
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Dr. Ashby makes a compelling argument for razor sharp edged broadheads.
His findings may not be that important shooting 45 # plus at deer. The doc achieved consistent lethal penetration on large adult water buffalo with that draw weight. He went down to such a low draw weight because the heavier bows were passing through massive bodied bull buff.
Interesting reading