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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: YORNOC on October 09, 2011, 07:16:00 AM
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Man, I'm struggling badly. I want to shoot longbows in the worst way but after shooting olympic style recurves for years, then breaking my hand last year.. I feel everything very hard in my hand/wrist. I'm shooting good 64" and up hunting recurves and love 'em. But really want to tame the longbow.
Here's my issue...I have seen "no hand shock" labeled on many quality longbows. I have not found this to be the case on any of them yet.
I dont know if longbow shooters just dont feel the handshock after years of shooting or if a non handshock longbow exists out there.
I have good friends SWEAR that the "!@#$" brand is free from shock, then I shoot it and after ten shots my wrist is tingling and I'm miserable.
If it is just something that needs to be accepted with longbows and I have to adapt, thats fine and I just need to know. But if there are componants/materials/design that can get rid of this problem I'd love to learn about them.
I'm not looking to get into a "favorite bowyer" arguement here, so please dont go that way. These guys are all GREAT craftsmen. In fact, bowyer responses would REALLY be helpful.
Without giving away trade secrets of course!
Thanks in advance for any help,
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Are you shooting with a high wrist and 3 under? I ask because the way you grip both the bow and the string can throw the timing off a bow, which is a major cause of handshock.
What you'll need is a bow specifically tillered to the way you shoot.
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there is that or maybe just the low wrist itself is eating you up and not the shock itself. Assuming you didnt shoot low wrist with the olympic curves.
My chief is pretty dang smooth....not recurve smooth, afterall it doesnt have the mass my bob lee has. You know you've shot it, but it doesnt rattel your teeth out like many longbows I have shot I love it so much I have 3 identical bows lol. (good thing too, Allen doesnt make them anymore ugg!) the bbo I am trying to tiller out right now has more handshock than it should have and a pretty good thump but I think most of that is tiller.
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Are you only interested in straight limb d hill style longbows, or are you also interested in mild r/d d shaped longbows? I am personally not bothered by handshock, but that doesn't mean that it isn't present. When I shoot a recurve, it makes me try to straighten my elbow. The mass if the riser and Recurves design seems to reduce the shock. If I carry this straight arm technique over to the longbow it definitely increases the shock for me. I think it is a high wrist versus low wrist thing. I thing if the bent elbow as my shock absorber. It may not help you, but worth thinking about. I think the critter bitter and Mohawk style bows have a lot less shock. Also consider using a longbow with the shortest working limb that your drawlength will allow. Good luck.
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You may also need a very high GPP arrow/bow ratio. I have noticed shooting extremely high gpp reduces shock/vibration down to a single kick similar to a Red Ryder BB gun, if that make sense. I feel hand shock/vibration on lower gpp but with 15 or so gpp I feel one kick of the bow. This is the a D longbow.
I think others have hit on the wrist position also and the grip style you choose.
Hope you find a shootable bow for you.
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Heavier arrows and so forth can help, but I'm convinced the only way to beat handshock is to change your grip. I grew up shooting recurves too and my recurve grip (little contact with the bow, web of the thumb / forefinger in the deepest part of the pistol grip, etc.) absolutely will not work on a longbow - not one with a straight handle anyway.
Until I started "gripping the handle of my Hill like one would grip a suitcase" and until I started giving it a more firm grip than I'd ever dream of doing with a recurve, it kicked the crap out of me.
Now that my grip is right, it's as tame as a kitten.
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David,
Something to try and real cheap..If you have an Ace bandage wrap that around your hand a few times then up to your wrist...It might help not sure just a suggestion I'm thinking of trying myself...Seems like a smaller riser bow with less wood to take the shock from the release will go into your bowhand...Something else is a more forward handle bow might help...Remember the old Mercury bow Pearson made? I thought it had Mercury capsules in it for this reason but I may be wrong...Makes me wonder if that reason was for keeping the handshock into the bow kind of like a stabilizer...I shot bows that felt like I got an electrical shock on release and a heavier arrow helped in reducing the shock...Many things to think about here and to try before moving on to another bow...God Bless and hope you find a solution...Keefer's <><
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There are several ways to tame hand shock. Now some bows have more while others less and we all know that.
However, you can reduce the handshock in any bow to a tollerable state (by most anyway) by adding a bow quiver and heavier arrows.
You may not like a bow quiver, but if you try one and give it a chance, you will at least get used to it and may very well love it. I seldom shoot bows with out and not because of hand shock. Changing your grip may also help some.
good luck, bigjim
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I agree with Bud B.all the way,GPP and wrist position are crucial to comfort.I would add though that there is a noticable difference in bow type and Bowyer design.I have owned and shot several makes and models and have even made a few bows myself and there IS a difference in bows and Bowyers. If you send me a PM I will be glad to tell you which ones worked best for me. I don't wan't to get into a "best Bowyer" argument either
David
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Try a hybrid with heavy arrows,that might help your problem.I have a Cari-bow Slynx that that feels like a recurve in the hand to me.
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More heel pressure, heavy arrow. I never had luck shooting any longbow like a recurve.
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HS is definitely relative in the eye of the beholder. IMHO, no question in different shooting "technique" w/straight grip lb's vs locator or pistol grips. SHLB's need a firm grip vs spot-on fit in the web of the hand re Rcv & loctr. Ever see recurve shooter w/fingers outstretched on bow hand? Try it w/lb. Not the same!
Your wrist injury may prevent your switch until exercise, therapy, +/or witchdoc can numb the pain. Try Keefer's very tight Ace bandage. Accupuncture works miracles on joint pain. Many quality lb's have pistol grips. Hvy arrows, powdered glove fingers, more cant, longer limbs, or whatever may ease the jolt enough until you can get acclimated...because you can get acclimated. Point..,straight grip lb's are different IMO not meant to be shot like recurves. Shoot wrong & you'll know soon as your eyes stop rolling. Maybe you already know that? Some good folks w/good info above. Let us know.
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So, I have a SB that has a lot of hand shock. I also have a LB 3pc TD. It has a heavy riser and bow quiver. No hand shock. I think my arrows are in the 550 grain range.
I think the key is to get as much energy into the arrow. Pushing a heavy arrow may to the trick. I agree with Jim adding mass to the bow via a bow quiver will help as well.
Martin
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I agree with Buddy that you may have wrist and tissue issues that make things worse for you. If I want to experience hand shock with a Hill style bow, I try to draw one 2 inches longer than my normal longbow draw. When I extend my arm out straight, bridge up on the grip, then squeeze it a bit, and rip my fingers off the string on the release, it is like getting struck by lightening with one longbow that I have and no longer shoot. Other than the ripping release and the tight grip, that is how I shot my target bow. With my longbows i let the bow sink into my hand to find its own settling spot, I hold it tight enough so it does not move much on the release, my bow arm elbow finds a natural bend, my shoulders are not jammed up tight, and everything is in a neutral mid position with no extreme jams or extensions. But that's just how I do it. Still I have shot some longbows that jar my brain cells loose when I least expect it. On everyone of those I have altered the bow to make it less so. If I made gains in how the bow shot, I ended up giving them away. On the other hand there were a couple of very expensive bonfires when I went to far.
The other side of this is, I shot a Stotler recurve and a couple of Jack Howards. That , for me, extended stretch to get to a 28" draw, does not work for hunting. There have been a couple of Jack Howards for sale lately, oh how I wanted to buy one of them. With my shortened draw they would not work for me, so I had to pass. Same story for the Stotler recurve, a beautiful and yet agile long recurve, but it will not function at my short draw. Regrettably, not all bows work when one finds that his best draw length is shorter or for some who wish to shoot short bows, longer than normal. Lucky for us there are many styles to choose from. I would consider in your case not so much what shape you want the bow to be, but rather, what kind of form do you want to use and what kind of a shot do you want to take and find the bow that does that job best for you. My personal record for shooting quarters out of the air in succession at ten yards was not done with a longbow, it was a Bear Super Kodiak.
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I feel handshock worse with any grip that "indexes"...locator, low/medium/high pistol grips, etc. Now shoot straight-gripped longbows and recurves almost exclusively; heel down, and have no issues whatsoever with handshock. I did have a wrist injury years ago that is probably a factor.
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What all have said above......I also have changed the brace to reduce the "shock". Heel down, light grip.........hope it works for you!
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I agree with the light grip suggestion. Having shot both types of bows a lot I can attest that there are many nice hybred longbows out there that have no more handshock than recurves.
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I have found that if I shoot a 68" Hill longbow, slight locator grip, reasonable weight arrows, I don't notice any hand shock.
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My first LB was a Bear Montana, had to sell it because of too much hand shock, my buddy who bought it said he doesn't notice any hand shock, go figure ?, or maybe it just doesn't bother him.
I have shot other peoples LB's and have noticed a lot of hand shock, but the LB's that I have don't seem to have any, and the way I have to hold these bows is completely different from each other.
It might all be in the eyes of the bolder.
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Lots of good longbows with recurve grips that have no handshock. If you are talking Hill style LBs, well never shot one without handshock!! Shawn
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Some shooters are more sensitive to handshock than others. I have shot bows other people swear have zero handshock, but I felt still had some. Everyone is different, but my results for less handshock are;
1. Bows with heavy risers.
2. Bows requiring higher brace height.
3. Bows with an ergonomic grip like a low to medium grip. (recurve or longbow)
4. Shoot a good heavy arrow
This is what helps me with my pain issues as related to handshock regarding my elbow problems.
I pm'ed you the same info.
These are just my opinions and others may have different experiences.
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Admire your persistence in working with the longbow, I do think longbows are special and more fun to shoot. Sounds to me that the problem is with your unjury. The guys above have some things to try. Hope they work.
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Originally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Lots of good longbows with recurve grips that have no handshock. If you are talking Hill style LBs, well never shot one without handshock!! Shawn
Shawn hit the "nail on the head". :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Winterhawk1960
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I was a recurve only shooter for years and wanted to make the switch to longbow, just to compete against some new people at the 3ds. I tried longbows for probably eight years and kept going back to recurve as I have a very sensitive elbow after an injury. I now shoot 80% longbow with no issues, it all came down to finding the right bow with the right arrow. And Yes I too tried many bows that guys said had no hand shock and I felt lots. Now I own longbows that have less vibration then my recurves.
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Wow, just got home from my first helicopter flight and was astounded by all the resonses and pm's. Will get to all of them, I really appreciate all the info.
I do shoot with a high grip, and normally barely hold the bow at all. Makes sense, combined with the very light weight, small risered longbows I've been trying. Have not tried shooting my heavy Grizzly Stiks out of them, nor have I tried adding mass weight with bow quiver , etc.
Glad I asked everyone. Many thanks!
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Originally posted by Winterhawk1960:
Originally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Lots of good longbows with recurve grips that have no handshock. If you are talking Hill style LBs, well never shot one without handshock!! Shawn
Shawn hit the "nail on the head". :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Winterhawk1960 [/b]
Then neither of you know how to hold one!
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Sorry....just my opinion and I should keep it to myself! :notworthy: :goldtooth:
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Ron, no I do and I have shot them plenty. I have a bud that is the best shot I know who shoots Hill bows and he will tell you even with a heavy arrow and the proper grip there is no way around it, they have hand shock. This is not an opinion, it is a fact. Shawn
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Hill bows do have a "bump" at the shot ... no getting away from the fact . Having said that , they are all I shoot.
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Mine don't!! The worst hand shock I ever felt was from a longbow with a recurve style grip. I put it on a belt sander, gave it a low grip, raised the brace and shot a 650 GR. arrow and it all went away. My Hill Halfbreed is as smooth and shock free as I have ever seen........again just my opinion...from experience. A bit of a bump and hand shock are 2 different things.....I think all bows have a bump at the shot. Hand shock hurts!!
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I have shot some that had hand shock. I call hand shock what I feel when I hit say a tree with a ball bat or something like that. You know when your hand actually hurts or stings from shooting it. Most of the D LB's I have shot have more what I would call thump or forward thrust. Doesn’t bother my hand, but can cause some issues with my elbow. The best one piece D shaped bow I have shot is the Two Tracks followed by the Tall Tines. Now if you define hybrids as long bows, there are a lot of them that are very mild to shoot. My ACS is real nice to shoot as is my Hill Country. My Hill Country is deader in the hand than any other bow I have ever had including heavy riser recurves. Once set up, and gripped right a lot of the ones that thump some smooth out after you get used to shooting them. You adjust somehow to it after a while.
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A lighter string can also take the thump out of a longbow. My Mahaska was a pretty good thumper with B50 12-14 strand string. I put on a 10 strand D97 string, padded to 16 strands in the loops and served with wool yarn in the loops. Not there is no hand shock. The lighter weight and lower stretch put more energy into the arrow instead of the bow.
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I've noticed handshock with the wooden 3 piece wood longbows I've had. I don't notice it at all with a metal risered Ilf longbow. Best setup to date is a TAC firefly with dryad epic limbs. Very similar to a recurve in feel.
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There are a couple of things that make a bow that is relatively shock free.
1. Light limbs and tips.
2. Perfect limb timing adjusted tiller to your sty;e shooting.
3. not only decent riser weight (physical) but riser stifness.
My suggestion if you want a super smooth , shcckless longbow is to get a double carbon, foam core,with a recurve grip , i beam style riser and medium to heavy d and r limb profile. I build that kind of bow, several others build that kind of bow. I believe Morrison may, I know Kirk at Bigfoot bows does and I believe Zipper does. Check with the guys on this site and they will tell you. for smothness and light shock you have to have light weight limbs that are timed and tillered correctly. That is the main key.
If you are comfortable with the recurve style grip I am sure a good bowyer can copy even the grip you are using,. '
Thats my take on it, God bless you and good luck, Steve
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guys who shoot Hill style longbows and claim that they do not have harsh hand shock with dacron strings, have certain things in common most of the time. They heal the bow a bit, they shoot split finger with the 1/8 to 3/16" above 90 degrees, they have a slightly bent bow arm, and they develop a timing of sorts that allows their bow arm and bow shoulder to ride with the thump of the bow. However, they all have experienced bows that are heavier limbed or bows that are out of time that thump harder than their favorite bows. A lot of longbows do not like to be shot bone on bone, as it is called now days. I think a straight armed shooting style with a pistol grip is fine on a hybrid or a recurve and if that is how one prefers to shoot, why fight it with a Hill style longbow? Just shoot what fits your style, there is nothing wrong with matching your equipment to your shooting style.
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there can be no difference in holding a recurve or longbow handle. it's up to your bow hand grip.
i offer this for consideration ...
do not fully grip the longbow's handle. do the same as you'd do with a recurve. do not use a tight grip. allow only the web and flesh of your bow hand to contact the longbow's handle - doesn't matter if the handle is straight, dished or locator style. this will float the grip and allow minimal contact between your bow hand and the bow's handle.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/hand1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/hand2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/hand3.jpg)
if you slightly angle the bow hand, you will also have much better bowstring clearance, most clearance versus least clearance ...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/gr2.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/rfdee/archery/gr1.jpg)
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Rob, great pics, they are worth a thousand words....
I may be a longbow novice, however I have not noted any hand shock with the longbows I've owned. I do however always have a bow quiver on for the convenience and little added mass weight.
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also, ALL bets are off if lightweight arrows are used. 9gpp minimum, 10gpp and heavier mo' bettah.
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :campfire:
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Bent elbow. A "decent" to "good" amount of bend. Trying to max out your draw length with a, for the most part, a straight arm, is a recipe for disaster.
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Much valued and informative feedback here.
I can relate to the concerns and what options seem to work best for me.
Also, great depictions and explanation Rob.
Thanks to all!
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Hill style bows absolutely do have handshock. Knowing how to tame handshock is not the same thing as not having any to start with.
Pick up a MOAB or another quality hybrid and take a few shots. You'll see the difference immediately. I had to give up selfbows and hill style bows due to some elbow problems. I can shoot my MOAB all day long without triggering the problem.
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if a hill style bow grip is approached the way i describe above, the handshock will be there but so incredibly slight as to not even matter.
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Again, you are controlling handshock. Not the same thing as a bow not having handshock.
I'm not knocking Hill style bows. They are a great piece of history and lots of folks have fun shooting them. I just get aggravated at people who claim they don't kick. They DO kick, and you have to make changes to your shooting style to accomodate that fact.
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Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Hill style bows absolutely do have handshock. Knowing how to tame handshock is not the same thing as not having any to start with.
Pick up a MOAB or another quality hybrid and take a few shots. You'll see the difference immediately. I had to give up selfbows and hill style bows due to some elbow problems. I can shoot my MOAB all day long without triggering the problem.
All bows do if you insist on holding them wrong.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff187/GingivitisKahn/holding_it_wrong1.jpg)
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Not everyone what's to shoot a Hybrid.....I know I don't care for them and I have had a bunch!! That's why there are different kinds....so you can enjoy what you like! :notworthy: :dunno:
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Man some of you guys make it like every Hill has handshock like a serious issue. My Hill may have a little thump after you shoot but it is not something that distracts any from the shot. I use a straight hand grip on a locator grip. Come on the comments being made are a bit exaggerated in my opinion. It's not like the bow is going to damage your shoulder. With the right arrow, brace height etc a Hill with provide you with a little bit of feedback, but most guys that shoot Hills regularly, you don't notice it.
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My advice as a 20 year bowyer and 2 semester physics major...
Drawing the bow stores energy. Letting go of the string releases it. The stored energy is going somewhere it never just disapears.
- The energy should be passed on to the arrow but not all of it can. The heavier the arrow the more energy is absorbed.
-A heavy, oversized riser will absorb some. Just ask any shotgunner if his 14 pound semi auto kicks compared to the 6 lb pump he grew up with.
- The heavier/longer the limb the the more weight is slammed forward at release. Hill style bows have a thicker longer limb and small lightweight riser. They kick more. I build them & like them but they have more excess energy than the smaller light weight riser and long/heavy limbs can overcome.
My advice is get a shorter longbow with a heavy riser with Bamboo limbs and the heaviest arrows you can shoot well. R/Deflex will help.
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High GPP arrows. The way I understand it is that if the energy of the bow is not taken up by the arrow (read heavy enough arrow) AND the riser is not heavy enough to absorb the additional energy there is handshock. The correct brace height should also reduce the handshock of any good longbow to negligible amount.
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Good reply 7 Lakes.
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Originally posted by YORNOC:
Man, I'm struggling badly. I want to shoot longbows in the worst way but after shooting olympic style recurves for years, then breaking my hand last year.. I feel everything very hard in my hand/wrist. I'm shooting good 64" and up hunting recurves and love 'em. But really want to tame the longbow.
Here's my issue...I have seen "no hand shock" labeled on many quality longbows. I have not found this to be the case on any of them yet.
I dont know if longbow shooters just dont feel the handshock after years of shooting or if a non handshock longbow exists out there.
I have good friends SWEAR that the "!@#$" brand is free from shock, then I shoot it and after ten shots my wrist is tingling and I'm miserable.
If it is just something that needs to be accepted with longbows and I have to adapt, thats fine and I just need to know. But if there are componants/materials/design that can get rid of this problem I'd love to learn about them.
I'm not looking to get into a "favorite bowyer" arguement here, so please dont go that way. These guys are all GREAT craftsmen. In fact, bowyer responses would REALLY be helpful.
Without giving away trade secrets of course!
Thanks in advance for any help,
I didn't read all the replies but I know what you are talking about, I use to go to every shoot I could just to shoot all the bows I could and I shot a bunch of high end or very highly recommended bows that were supposedly "no hand shock" I almost dropped a few of them it hurt so bad. Of the ones I can remember that had no hand shock at all for me were the original O.L., Lone Tree(R.I.P) and Whippenstick. I've shot most that folks rave about and I'll tell you if I paid $800+ for a bow that hurt every time I shot it I'd be pissed off...I should mention Thunder Sticks are something to look into also.
Good luck in your quest.
:wavey:
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the hand placement,arrow weight,bracehight,and silencers all play a role,ive got a 71#abbott longbow,and the best way to shoot is to push the bow handle away while it rests along the lifeline of my hand,when draw i push the bow away and when i reach anchor release and let the bow work itself while i push away open handed,my elbow needs a bend and so does the wrist or the yew will work against you.(no pun inteded)6 3/8 brace hight for mine.
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Originally posted by GingivitisKahn:
Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Hill style bows absolutely do have handshock. Knowing how to tame handshock is not the same thing as not having any to start with.
Pick up a MOAB or another quality hybrid and take a few shots. You'll see the difference immediately. I had to give up selfbows and hill style bows due to some elbow problems. I can shoot my MOAB all day long without triggering the problem.
All bows do if you insist on holding them wrong.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff187/GingivitisKahn/holding_it_wrong1.jpg) [/b]
Whether a bow kicks or not has nothing to do with how you hold it. Again, the right grip and form MITIGATE handshock, they don't magically make a bow not kick.
Put a hybrid and a Hill bow in a shooting machine and don't secure the grip to the machine. Shoot an arrow. Guess what happens? Both bows jump forward on the release and hit the floor. Guess which one goes farther? More energy remaining in the bow means more kick that you have to find some way to deal with.
Let me put it another way. Hold a hybrid however the heck you want. No kick. Hold a Hill in any way that doesn't turn your forearm into a shock absorber and you will lose fillings.
Hill style bows kick. I'm glad folks like 'em, and I happen to think they are one very cool piece of archery history. That doesn't change the fact that they kick.
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Fast flight or other low or no stretch string materials along with heavier arrows in the 9-10 grains per pound will reduce handshock noticably. Some of the R/D designs seem to have less shock than the heavy stacked limb design utilized in a Hill stright limb design. Lighter limb materials employing carbon, carbon/foam and bamboo help to reduce limb shock. A wider grip surface area and a bit of riser weight and taper helps as well. I have particular problems with the thinner or almost pointed taper on the traditional Hill design. a bicycle riding glove with a gel shock pad in the palm can also be very helpful. Hope this helps.
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Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Originally posted by GingivitisKahn:
Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Hill style bows absolutely do have handshock. Knowing how to tame handshock is not the same thing as not having any to start with.
Pick up a MOAB or another quality hybrid and take a few shots. You'll see the difference immediately. I had to give up selfbows and hill style bows due to some elbow problems. I can shoot my MOAB all day long without triggering the problem.
All bows do if you insist on holding them wrong.
(http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff187/GingivitisKahn/holding_it_wrong1.jpg) [/b]
Whether a bow kicks or not has nothing to do with how you hold it. Again, the right grip and form MITIGATE handshock, they don't magically make a bow not kick.
Put a hybrid and a Hill bow in a shooting machine and don't secure the grip to the machine. Shoot an arrow. Guess what happens? Both bows jump forward on the release and hit the floor. Guess which one goes farther? More energy remaining in the bow means more kick that you have to find some way to deal with.
Let me put it another way. Hold a hybrid however the heck you want. No kick. Hold a Hill in any way that doesn't turn your forearm into a shock absorber and you will lose fillings.
Hill style bows kick. I'm glad folks like 'em, and I happen to think they are one very cool piece of archery history. That doesn't change the fact that they kick. [/b]
You are simply wrong. When I first got my Hill, I held it like I was used to holding a recurve and it kicked. A few moments of research (and a good bit of practice) and I corrected my grip - no handshock.
This is the same argument we have over and over. Some people hold them wrong and experience handshock - they swear the bow is shocky and for them it is. Others of us hold it correctly and experience no handshock - for us the bow isn't shocky.
This statement of yours:
> Hold a hybrid however the heck you want.
> No kick. Hold a Hill in any way that
> doesn't turn your forearm into a shock
> absorber and you will lose fillings.
... supports what we've been saying. Hold a hill (or similar) incorrectly and it will kick you. Hold it correctly and it won't.
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the classic longbow design ("hill style", elb, "indian bow", whatever), whether backset, straight or bellyset limbs, has an inherent "handshock". it's there to some degree, mostly more than the shooter likes. oh yes it's there. always has, always will be - pure physics.
it (the shock) is a by-product of design that can be *tamed* in a variety of ways, but it's still there, waiting to bite you if you don't take measures into your hand (pun somewhat intended). redirect that misguided energy with heavier missiles and minimal hand contact, for starters.
take that same design and begin to snake the limbs and the shock value decreases. we all know that, nothing new. don't see what all the fuss is about .... it is what it is and you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. and maybe we shouldn't. i wouldn't. :dunno:
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They are still effective though, aren't they, Rob?
Gingivitis;
What my statement supports is that the bow has handshock and you, the archer, have to do something about it.
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Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
They are still effective though, aren't they, Rob?...
absolutely, sir. i'll always have a hill longbow at the ready. :thumbsup:
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That's it; I'm tired of this arguement :banghead:
Guess I'll just have to buy a Hill and find out for myself. Someone's gotta do it.
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Black Widow sells a roll on rubber grip that can be placed on the Bow Handle. This seems to be helpful in reducing or eliminating "hand shock."
Try it you might like it!
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All bows have hand shock, and until someone makes a bow that is 100% efficient, they will continue to have it. As has already been pointed out by 7lakes, the excess energy stored in the limbs has to go somewhere at release. It is dissipated through limb vibration and riser vibration that is transmitted to the bow hand. That's what we feel as hand shock. Now some bows have less of it than others and some folks are less sensitive to it than others, but it's always there.
The major characteristics that lessen hand shock are bow design (high r/d bows usually have less), heavier, stiffer risers and lighter limbs as well as proper tiller, as Sixby pointed out, overall bow weight (heavier bows generally have reduced hand shock) heavier arrows, thinner, fast flite type strings, grip design, and of course the grip itself. The tighter the bow is gripped, the more the vibrating bow can work on the hand/wrist/arm. There are probably a few other causal factors as well, but that's most of them.
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I can tell you fellas I love to shoot a Hill bow as much as anyone.BUT if I shoot one a lot for several weeks my shoulder and elbow will hurt like a toothache. I let it heal and shoot other bows a while no problem. Pick up the Hill and shoot only it for a week. Back to the Advil.
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Not sure about a Hill style longbow, as I have never shot one. My Centaur and Pronghorn are both dead in the hand.
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Originally posted by Swamp Yankee:
That's it; I'm tired of this arguement :banghead:
Guess I'll just have to buy a Hill and find out for myself. Someone's gotta do it.
Don't get too tired of it - we have this one all the time. :D
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Arguing or not, I appreciate the great info I got from the thread. Lots of really good PM's too. Thanks everybody.
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i see absolutely no arguing, just differing points of view which beg personal testing.
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If you are so blessed, read, Traditional Bowyers of America: The Bowhunting and Bowmaking World of the Nation's Top Crafters of Longbows And Recurves by Dan Bertalan. There is a world of information on the who and how and why of crafting bows especially if considering a custom made bow.I have a pair of Hill style straight limb bows made here in NZ ( slight reflex in outer third of limb) and they shoot all day bows, pleasant to use, with the right arrow weight.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
the classic longbow design ("hill style", elb, "indian bow", whatever), whether backset, straight or bellyset limbs, has an inherent "handshock". it's there to some degree, mostly more than the shooter likes. oh yes it's there. always has, always will be - pure physics.
it (the shock) is a by-product of design that can be *tamed* in a variety of ways, but it's still there, waiting to bite you if you don't take measures into your hand (pun somewhat intended). redirect that misguided energy with heavier missiles and minimal hand contact, for starters.
take that same design and begin to snake the limbs and the shock value decreases. we all know that, nothing new. don't see what all the fuss is about .... it is what it is and you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. and maybe we shouldn't. i wouldn't. :biglaugh:
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Its all in the grip brother. Get Asbell's Instinctive Shooting 11. He does the best job of explaining how to shoot the longbow that I have seen. I shoot straight limb Howard Hill's and R/D Massie "Longhorns" without a hand shock issue. Keep the heel of your hand down and control the bow(strong grip). Totally different than a recurve. :campfire:
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Longbows are like shotguns no matter how much they cost or how pretty they are. When one fits an feels right its right if it don't it wont.. You just have to go shoot sum till you find the right one. Morrsion an 21 century are the ones that fit me the best, after shooting them i can really feel the shock from other bows if i grab a different brand. They just fit me the best
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If I have to think about holding a bow a certain way to avoid hand shock or to get accurate groups then the bow is not for me. My current longbows have no hand shock. Zipper, Centaur, Lost Creek etc. Just grab the bow and the grip is natural, no thinking about it. I have owned plenty of bows that this was not the case and I sold them all.
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I shoot a GN Bushbow, straight grip, it came with a FF string and i never had any shock (at least not noticable). started making my own strings and used B50 because of the price but then that baby rocked me, it hurt to shoot. must have got used to it though, its ok now. Try a FF string if you dont already have it.
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One of the bloodiest and most successful bows I ever had was a Hill that I pulled to over 85 pounds, it kicked like a mule. Unless someone is suffering from a condition or an injury that is inflamed by shock, I think most of the time people make to big of a thing about it. Saying that, I would not suggest that someone take a harsher shooting longbow, straight arm it, try to squeeze blood out of the handle, and rip off the release. We tend to adapt to those bows that kick more by allowing the arm to act as a spring and make sure that our tuning and release and grip don't rattle the more sensitive joints. There is a timing in our reactions that develops over time that seems to soften the blow. I have noticed that after shooting heavy reflex longbows that the shock reduces. Then after I shoot a heavy handles lighter recurve for a while and my draw is lengthened with some stretching in my form, that when I go back to the longbows, the first shots are a bit surprising. But, I'm a man, I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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I agree with the injury. The shock ,although I realized it was there, never really bothered me too much till the hand problem. Now it really hammers me.
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i think the first step in understanding "hand shock", or perhaps better described as "after shock", is realizing that all bows have it to one degree or another. yup, all stick bows. yes, even mine and yours.
in a perfect world, 100% of limb energy would be transmitted to the arrow via the bowstring. some amount of energy always goes back to the riser and to the bow holder's hand, and that shock wave routes itself through dense matter (bone) throughout the shooter (in some cases, "tooth rattling").
there are material ways to absorb that wasted energy, and in the 60's and 70's, adding riser mass weight, and springs and rubber and mercury "shock absorbers" were used with noticeable results in stabilizing a bow during and after the arrow's release. bowstring fiber type and strand count choices are other ways of taming the rattle. and, of course, upping the arrow's mass weight.
there are shooter form ways to help with the aftershock, such as minimizing bow hand contact.
after shock is there, learn to deal with it or try a different stick bow type with lesser amounts of the nasties.
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Maybe you tend to notice "hand shock" in Hill bows because suddenly your ears aren't being assaulted with "bow noise"! :saywhat: As soon as you get used to a silent bow, the "hand shock" goes away! :bigsmyl: :thumbsup:
Gerald
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I think getting hung up on the shape of the limbs or pounds of pull and not the way one shoots or how a bow is actually going to be used can keep a good number of bowyers in business. I have a Groves Spitfire that is in nice shape. Not as heavy as my other bows, but the grip bruised a nerve on my thumb knuckle in just a few shots, leaving me with a numb spot on my thumb. I did a real nice job changing that grip so the grip would not put all that pressure on the wrong spot. If I did not change it, I would not be able to shoot that bow. Now when I shoot the Groves, I feel like no less a hunter than when I shoot my heavier Hill style longbows. Yornoc, if you find that longbows that rattle your hand will not work for you, there are hybrids that can easily do most of the same things that any Hill style will do, except perhaps do it all with a faster arrow flight. objectively, you should deal with what you can do that will not cause pain and enjoy the plus side of a hybrid or nice recurve. Those longbows are not as big a difference as some would suggest, I know, I own lots of them.
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I hear ya, I just hate being limited on anything. A problem I've always had in life. My issue to deal with, but I'll fight it to my dying day.
Just makes me want to find a way to conquer it all the more. I'm looking at hybrids quite a bit since this thread came out.
Going to experiment with some 2nd handers first. But I'll tell ya what, picking 1 bowyer from everyone here is torture.
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If I were to be dead honest one of the best shooting longbows that can do everything a Hill style bow can do and more was a bow made a long time back that has the name Mike Ballenger on it. It is a bit different than what he is offering now, but still it is the most accurate longbow I have ever shot without the harshness. I gave it to a friend, because he needed a bow that could do what it did. I have been in the preplanning of giving the newest owner of Stotler bows a serious run for his money. Someone should warn him that I am a tough and very particular customer, when I make a custom bow order, I know exactly what I want and want exactly that. I could pull my few strands of hair I have left out because he told me that his recurve would not shoot so nice for me because of me shorter draw, but that's okay, I know what can be done with the longbow that will be just as good. The Stotler I had years ago was a no shock super fine bow. In a style and class of its own, damn! now I want one even worse.
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Here's my Stotler recurve. Tried to sell it but it didnt go. Awwww, what a shame! I have to keep it!
(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab246/yornoc/Stotlerskinned008.jpg)
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You have that for a recurve and you are fretting about longbows? Shame, shame on you. I wish I could get one that would be a few inches shorter, really nice bow (!).
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Heh, yeah I know. Tough situations for sure! :bigsmyl:
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Trying to max out your draw length for more power is a-kin to arching your back as you do squats. Not Smart. Try lifting weight off the floor without your legs, use your back by bending over at the waist and lift in a twisting and jarring motion!!
Not Smart at all.
A decent bend in the arm, enough to where it "almost," but not quite, causes you to use arm muscles to keep it from collapsing, pushing from there and "not straightening it out at full draw."
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'Real' longbows are, IMO, the D-style straight grip variety with low-mass risers and high-mass limbs. They are an acquired taste and after some trial and error you'll probably either hate'em or love'em. They will thump ('handshock') more than will anti-longbows (high mass riser/low-mass limbs) but they won't 'hurt' if held according to what their design dictates. The how-to-hold-them part of it is a beaten dead horse...see the million past threads on it in the archives and pick your method.
My two Widow MA recurves are low-thump bows (too smooth...girly bows really). The Shrew, Pronghorn and Traditionalist on my rack I'd rate medium thump (a compromise between extremes). My Hills and Abbott are more in the heavy thump category, the hardest to shoot and control but easily the most fun, satisfying and quiet to shoot. All these bows feel and shoot differently and are acquired tastes, each adding it's own spice to the grand experience.
I think the assessment of "handshock" really depends more on the shooter's ability (or inability) to learn from and adjust to the bow's design, much more than it does on the bow's ability to conform to the shooter's own preconceived ideas of what's comfy. Not everyone was made to shoot a 'real' longbow. It's a subjective question that only you can decide the right answer to.
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The above pictured recurve can be shot as fluidly as any longbow and with the same form. I for one do not care how many bends the limb has. Function and pointability are the most important things with today's bows. That's right, I am still jealous.
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Originally posted by TSP:
I think the assessment of "handshock" really depends more on the shooter's ability (or inability) to learn from and adjust to the bow's design, much more than it does on the bow's ability to conform to the shooter's own preconceived ideas of what's comfy. Not everyone was made to shoot a 'real' longbow. It's a subjective question that only you can decide the right answer to.
The question is, is there something else to a Hill style bow that makes it worth putting up with the thump. Obviously, for lots of folks there are. Hills are quiet, stable, durable and carry a great heritage. If that rates higher for you than a smooth shot, I reccomend you pick up a Hill.
For me, the decision has absolutely nothing to do with experience. I've been shooting traditional bows for 21 years now, longbows for 19. I started with a Hill-style bow (A Ben Pearson Ol' Ben. Talk about handshock!). I built selfbows for years. I think most of them kicked worse than the Pearson! After some elbow problems a few years back, I had to do one of three things, build bows, shoot bows or give up archery. My joints just wouldn't take the abuse anymore. I was able to switch to a hybrid-style longbow in almost the same weight I had always shot and continue without pain.
I can shoot a Hill-style bow. I just can't do more than a round or so a week with one, and there will be lots of pain and ice packs in-between.
Hill style bows kick. I'm still glad they are around. Hills are still about the prettiest thing going when bent to full draw.
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I am in the same boat that some others are in. Personally, I love HH style bows and have owned many throughout the years. I developed a wrist injury using them however and since then have sold all of them. I tried many different remmedies including shooting heavy arrows, trying different grips or hand positions (I can not count how many times I heard that one),etc. I could cut down on the amount of shooting that I did which seemed to help a lot, however, that was not acceptable to me.
Still love the bows, only wish my body could handle them.