Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Roger Norris on October 09, 2011, 12:00:00 PM
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I'm not sure. I try and do things "non-high tech", but I have often thought those trail cam pics I see are pretty neat...almost a hobby unto itself. So after thinking about it for a few years (seriously) i bought one Friday. I put it in the backyard, and got 41 pictures of racoons raiding my birdfeeder. Cool. Then I set it out in my "near home" hunting spot, this morning had a pic of a very large 8 point, and a couple does. Fun to look at. Being as they were cruising this runway at midnight, and I knew big bucks were around, 'm not sure how it helps me kill him, so I don't realy see it as an ethical dilema.
As an aside, my favorite trail cam pics are ones guys post up of odd stuff, like a bobcat where you don't expect one...
So what are your thoughts? Are these cheating?
My opinion right now is for me, no they aren't, but if a guy did all his scouting with them....well, maybe there is a line.....
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is fiberglass cheating, how about fast flight strings. i veiw cameras as another tool that can be used if wanted. everything we use is cosidered an improvement of years pass. i use them more for pictures of critters more than scouting.
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I have one set up 10 yds from my front door with a feeder. Last year we got pics of 12 different bucks including a couple of really big ones. We look forward to getting the card and veiwing it everyday.
Oh also we don't hunt on our property.
I don't use cameras or feeders when I hunt. Not an ethical question just a choice on my part.
Mike
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"neat...almost a hobby unto itself"
That's a great point Roger.And that's exactly how I look at them.I have to use my sign reading ability to get the camera within 15 ft of the animal I want to photograph and I know what times animals travel most so from a hunting stand point they don't do much.I do enjoy getting pictures of bobcats,lions,wolves and anything else that doesn't happen by everyday.In the area I travel I get a lot of pictures all throughout the daylight hours so times wouldn't help much from a hunting aspect.
I have learned a lot from them though,about animal behavior.I once got a picture of a big boar black bear in a canyon and 2 1/2 hours later in another canyon 3 miles away with several ridges inbetween.I have a picture of an old sow black bear associating with her 6 1/2 year old daughter.I also know that the old girl lost two cubs one year,as she had new babies two years in a row.I have pictures of a mountain lion heading up a trail in the direction some whitetails went a few hours before and a coyote heading up a trail 50 minutes after a wolf did.All neat stuff.
In order to get the pictures,you have to figure out the animals travel pattern to begin with.If you can do that,you can hang a stand and the camera can't tell you anything about wind direction or any of the other important aspects of that.You will still have to be a hunter.
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I love looking at all the great pictures posted on the trail camera thread and often wonder what happens to all those huge bucks that I see on those pictures people post. I like the hero pictures to, but I usually don't see the same quality of animals taken! I don't understand the ethical reason not to use game cameras in our scouting of deer on the properties that we hunt. I like to see what's wondering the places that I regularly hunt. Doesn't mean that they are tied to those locations. Yeck like I said at the beginning those bucks seldom are seen during daylight hunting hours. But it does help me stay on stand longer HOPING that they might show up!
Glenn
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Neighbor across the hgwy had one to give me. Didn't want it. Like the pix but too much extra for me. Feel comfortable in your own shoes you're good to go. To each his own.
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It all depends what you do with the things. I use them on black bear baits to make sure I'm not just feeding brown bears--that is almost always the case where I live and I want to avoid confrontations with them.
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I've never owned one but not because of any ethical issues.
If someone were to give one to me I'd put it up somewhere just for the fun of seeing what's out there when I'm not.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
The biggest advantage for me would be the boost to my motivation in getting out there and/or hanging with it just another hr or so longer with anticipation.
My 2 cents worth.
If you got'em, use'em !!!
God bless,Mudd
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Roger, I'm going hunting regardless of what the cameras tell me. So the pictures didn't influence me much. I enjoy being outdoors. I may not sit in the best spot on any given day but so what ??
I bought 4 of them 2 years ago, played with them for a couple of months and gave them all to a friend.. Again, I'm going hunting, period. And I only have one piece of ground I can hunt; hey, I'm blessed I have that !
So, the cameras didn't mean much to me. Fun to play with but that's about it..
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So how could someone use one unethically? They're just taking pictures. They aren't attractants.
I use one occasionally, but it basically confirms what I already know.
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I have a problem with them when guys use them to the point of them becoming their main scouting tool. They put out 15-20 on a property and than pin point a big bucks location at a certain time than go hang a stand and kill the buck. To me that is kind of cheating, ethical is not the questions, guys decide that for themselves. I have a couple out, but just to see what is on the property I hunt, not to pin point a very close time they are in an area and try to kill them. I want to make it clear I have no problem with guys that do this, it is just not for me. I beleive it may become an issue of fair chase eventually. Is that fair to an animal? I have thought about using one of the new Ozone machines, the science is sound and they can work when used properly, but again I am worried that may not be fair to the animals we hunt. I am using one to de-scent my clothes as I type this, am I cheating? Maybe, but what about the sprays and scents and camo. It is a fine line and as long as it or anything eles is legal, who am I to judge?? Shawn
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Just to answer the question above, we cannot judge what is ethical for everyone, but if someone sets out 20-25 on a 100 acre property and checks them with their cell phone and computer without going in the woods and pretty much uses them to pinpoint a bucks movements, not a question of ethics per se' but is it really fair to that animal? Shawn
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wow i am auctually with Shawn on this one! ido not like it when hunters use them to pin point the time a buck is crusing through that particular aera, that is just something that should be done with leg work and woodsmanship! i think MANY people rely on technology WAY to much. i do not have any trail camers right now but i have used them in the past just becouse i love the pictures and as Roger said it is a hobby in its self!
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I feel they are ethical and can get you pretty fired up when you see what kind of deer are around, that you never knew existed. You will also be amazed at how much antler they grow from year to year. You may start passing up younger bucks to let them mature, even if you are in a heavily hunted area like I am. You also start to learn a lot more about buck habits.
Having said that I stopped using them. After watching these bucks year round, I actually started to get attached to the deer and root for them to make it through the season. I prefer hunting when I don't know what is actually there making the rubs and scrapes. I won't even hunt my own farm any more because I like seeing these deer. I must be getting old.
These bucks pictures were taken on my farm. The farm is across the street from a large gun club and state WMA that gets a lot of hunting pressure. The WMA is stocked with pheasants and gets a lot bird hunters. During shotgun season gun clubs do large deer drives. One club that drives the WMA has drives with 200 standers and drivers. These bucks live 99% of their life on that WMA. You wouldn't think that with all the deer drives the gun clubs put on and small bucks that get taken every year there would be bucks of this size and age bracket. The deer in the front right of the picture is a nice 11 pointer that was a spindly little 4 point the year before. After watching these deer all year I didn't even hunt my own farm. This type of hunting isn't for me any more. There is nothing wrong with it and it is a great tool if you are trophy hunter. I just prefer not knowing. I let my son and his friend bow hunt my stand the year I took these pictures and his friend took the 11 pointer opening day of that season.
(http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/distantmeadows/Resident3.jpg)
Here is the 11 pointer on opening day.
(http://i696.photobucket.com/albums/vv324/distantmeadows/FarmPictures006.jpg)
If you like it and think it is ethical for you, it is, as long as it is leagal.
Good luck and have fun taking the pictures, you will be surprised what you see.
Gil
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I think they are a lot of fun and I enjoy seeing the pictures and videos they take. I have more hogs than deer on my place and I have learned a lot about hog behavior from them.
I personally can't imagine owning 20-25 of them, not to mention WITH cell phone capabilities... and using them in the way Shawn describes is pure craziness to me, but I don't doubt that someone is doing it somewhere.
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I have ran trail cameras for over ten years now I use to build my own back before digital cams were out and there was only one or two 35mm models on the market.I can tell you all the do is tell you what was in that spot they do not tell you the buck/deer/animal will ever be back again.They are nice and like stated a fun hobby I enjoy running cameras and checking them almost as much as hunting itself. I find it something I can do year around, everyone at home/work love to see the pictures and it does allow you to see animals you may never see with your own eyes.
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That is my point, there are hunt clubs and groups of guys doing it all over. It is not just a few, watch Mid-West whitetails and shows like that. They watch buck grow from 1.5 to a minimum of 4.5 than go out and kill them!! It is happening a lot more than people think. Ethical as I said that is for the indivdual to decide, fair to the animal, I myself don't think so, put some of these so called great hunters in my area without their trailcams and all their other techie stuff and I bet 75% would have trouble killing a 2.5 year old. Shawn
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I don't use them and prefer to do all of the leg work myself. I guess I am my own game camera. Hunting is all about actual feet on the ground hunting for me, not taking short cuts.
I have 4 acres of woods I don't hunt and will probably get a game camera to see what is walking the trails and visiting the salt lick. If I ever decide to hunt the place( unlikely) the game camera will come down.
Just my way of doing things.
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They are great fun. I got three last year in the summer. It is amazing how many different animals of all kinds will cross a major scrape. There is nothing unethical about them regardless of how many you have and how you use them as long as there are no laws being broken. Use them if you like and don’t if you don’t like them. Leave others to do their own thing.
I hunt three properties. On about 70 acres, one abut 10 and one 100. That is a lot of ground to cover seeing only about 200 sq. ft. at a time. The deer change movement patterns with time of year, hunting pressure, food source changes. It would be impossible to nail down all the options and know where and when a particular deer will be there unless you know you are on a core area or great funnel spot. But then if you know that you don’t need the camera to tell you that.
I sometimes set them right where I hunt just to see what is going on when I can’t be there. Why do I do this? Because I have scouted it and know it is a good spot to hunt already. If the wind is right and that locations works for my schedule to be there, I will hunt that spot. I also put them in spots I can’t hunt due to the wind, terrain and lack of a good spot to set-up. I do this just to see the deer.
This year we did some logging and a major corner of our woods was changed. The deer used to take three different ways to come into the area. Now tree tops reach from in a pond all the way up and over a little hill. The deer are force to move around it. I almost cleared the tops in a couple areas to make paths, but then though better of that idea. So I sat a stand where I knew the deer would go to get around the barricade of tree tops. Then I set a camera. With a three shot burs and short delay I got 535 pic’s in 20 days. Many of the same deer or missed shots, but 300 good ones of a lot of different deer and about eight different bucks. 90% outside of shooting hours. I had deer 15 yd. from my stand four days in a row in shooting light right up to opening day. The only wind that will work for this spot is a northerly wind due to the bowl type area it is between higher ground east and west, which causes wind swirls in the area. We got north wind opening day. No other stand on that site is well suited for northerly wind because most are set up for westerly winds and the lay of the land tends to move deer north and south from food to bed. I sat the stand morning and evening. I saw no deer! Guess they don’t like to go through there with a north wind.
I have yet to determine when and where to hunt based on the camera only. It rarely is more than a minor consideration in when and where I hunt. It is a lot of fun to see stuff on the camera including people who don’t know it is there. You also learn real fast that there is often very little in pattern for most deer. They come and go all different times and days. Often only coming through an area once a week, or only once every three days and different times going different directions. What I mostly learn is that I need to be in a good spot with the right wind and stay still and quiet because you never know when something could show up.
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First year I have tried cameras and honestly I have had more success capturing squirrels, racoons, possums and TRESPASSERS!
I am actually looking forward to working them more after the season as I think it will be a solid means of extending my hunting season and providng an excuse to stay in the woods more during the off season.
Regarding the ethics. Personally I don't see the arguements against them. If trying to use them as your sole scouting source then you might get lucky, then again there are a LOT of lucky hunters out there, that doesn't make them unethical, perhaps lazy but not unethical.
In the past I have used various methods that do practically the same thing as cameras do.
I have used thread across well used trails, when placed carefully you can verify the trails are being used and alot of times you can identify the direction the animal was traveling. I have even used cheap LCD clocks (like the kind with magnets that go on your refrigerator and such) along with thread or fishing line for figuring out when animals walked a particular trail.
Clearing leaves, depositing fresh dirt or saturating a spot on a trail with water can also reveal clues about the animals. I have also spent hours in a stand far away from trails to monitor activity before archery season opens. I would not consider these activities unethical. But I do like to maximize my chance for success with the limited time I have available to be in the woods during season.
Cameras are just a tool. Like any tool they could be used in an unethical manner.
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I remember someone saying that Montana has or was putting into effect a law that prevents their use while a hunting season was going on. I think that law has some merit.
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I don't care what anyone else thinks or what the arguments are for using them. I never will. I will always respect hunters that do not use them.
I do know one thing, devices such as this will, in the end, hurt hunting and its image.
Read Greg Munthers interview in the Oct issue of Trad Bowhunter mag. While I do not fall into lock step with all his opinions, he makes some very provoking arguments against more tech devices and what they mean for trad hunting opportunities.
Joshua
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Shawn,
I understand what you're saying, but those shows are about one thing: selling products. I would bet a paycheck that when they kill a particular animal of which they have photos, it's more random than intentional. The point of those segments it to make people think the camera (sponsor) was responsible for the kill, which is no more realistic than "Forget the wind; just hunt," or that Billy Bob's Budweiser Bass Lure will practically make ten-pounders jump in the boat.
It's not hunting; it's marketing.
I have a small 7-point rack from a deer I shot one November on my wall along with two trail camera photos of that deer (both preseason). I didn't even know I had the photos until after I killed the deer and decided to see if he was one of the ones from the cameras. Those pictures had nothing to do with why I hunted that stand on that day, and played no part in me shooting that buck. But if I was a prosti...er...shill for a trail camera company, I could tell the story a different way.
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From what I read about the WR smokepole Albia IA buck, they positioned over a dozen trailcams for that buck and knew his whereabouts 24x7 and then killed him the very first day of season.
So where do ya draw the line on cheating – one or two trailcams ethical, but not three?…. Food for thought…
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My boss thinks they are unethical. Of cource he also calls hic cross gun a bow. It drives him nuts when he is talking about how great it is and when he says arrow I correct him and say bolt.
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I think they're ethical. They show what animals you have near you. They don't shoot animals.
In other words, the big 12 point buck where I live that survived the wildfires, my neighbor's trail cam has him on film "during the night". The trail cam doesn't have any photos of the buck during the daylight hours.
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A couple of years ago a hunter on our neighbors proprty shot a doe but never recovered it. We found it a few days later on a power line that runs through out property. After watching the doe disappear over about a weeks time my wife and I bought one to see what was actually coming in to feed on the does carcus. Two winters ago we found another dead doe on our property that looked like a coyote kill. We placed the camera on that kill site to see what animals came to the carcus. You would be amazed at the different animals that did show up...coyotes at night mostly, all sorts of song birds, crows, hawks, coons, squirrels, a deer or two the neighbors dog and our dog.
I also use my trail cams(I just bought the second one)to find who is using what trail and when most of the activity occurs. Our resident does and yearlings use most of the trails most of the time, all day and all night. Most of the buck pics have been at night except for the occasional one at dawn or after sunset but they are rare on our property.
Actually we get our best(most interesting) pics after the hunting season is over and the woods settle back down.
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I dont neccessarily think they are unethical but I wont use one to hunt, Ibelieve it would rob me of some of the satisfaction I get from taking an animal by finding the trails and determoning if they are active or unsed. Never claimed to be Daniel Boone. but for me thats the challenge of the hunt. That being said, Having been " employment challenged" since the housing crash is making me take a hard look at putting meat in the freezer
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I really wish they would pass a law requiring they be removed from the field before seasons open . They are a neat tool and using them to "inventory" your deer population is one thing . Putting out 20 cameras to determine what stand is hot is another thing entirely . THAT is a HUGE advantage . IMHO it borders on an unfair advantage.
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Just because you put out a camera in the woods to scout for you doesn't mean you're going to kill the animal.
I have seen all sort of animals that my camera has taken photos of that I've not seen in the daytime or have run across on the days I've hunted.
It's not cheating an it's perfectly ethical. Its no more unethical than planting a food plot for deer to browse, use cover/attractant scents, corn, minerals, stands, camo, or anything else.
Fred Bear used a pack mule to attract grizzlies. Nugent said they'd pack it to the hunt area and then Bear would shoot the mule.
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Everyone should draw lines for themselves and not worry too much about another's lines..................and let's don't confuse the relationship between ethics and the law. Ethics are ethics, laws are laws-ethics are personal, laws are social.
There is no law that says that you can's shoot a wet sow..................but would you?
You won't use a game cam but you drive to the 'spot' how silly is that? Compass is OK and GPS is not trad? Ha Ha life is fun! :archer2: :archer2:
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I hate them, seems I cant take a walk anymore without having to skirt one and walk behind it. Im not doing anything wrong out there its just that the woods used to be the one place you could go for peace and seclusion, not anymore.Im scared to pee out there anymore. I hate them, wish they didnt exist. Ethical? Not for me although I love to see my friends pics. I just dont get them. To me, the mystery of not knowing what exactly out there "IS" the hunt.
They can be like placing an internet order at Cabelas if you let them. If a fella cams two properties that he has access to hunt and one only produces spikes and doe sighting while one produces 1/2 dozen Booner bucks which one will he hunt?
I thought about buying one just for the thrill of seeing what critters are doing when Im not out there but for the time being I have opted out. Who knows? I may change my mind and buy one down the road but for now Ill pass.
This is my opinion only which is worthless to anyone but me. I wont criticize anyone for using them because its still not nearly a guarantee that your gonna kill what you see on your camera and there are other crazy things we do to put the odds in our favor that never draw our negative attention. Again, my opinion only which is worth zero. :p :deadhorse:
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i agree with not using them to time deer movements. unnecessary hi-tech just like automated scent dispencers and battery operated scent eliminators, heated body suits and gloves.I disagree with Bjorn , of course you might have to drive to your spot,if you lived in town you could never go hunting if you didnt. I believe that trad hunting should be more trad then just your bow.but i also agree with bjorn and others who say its up to the individual.
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Jason, sorry but I disagree about the fact that they were lucky to know the buck was coming there. I know it sells products but they went out of their way to show the process, to the point they tell you we have this buck patterned to a tee time. They show you the times this particular buck was showing up and the exact times he was using this trail and field. The guy said I will shoot him between 6 and 6:15 as he is coming in every day at this time. He shoots him at 6:07. They also passed him several times as a 3.5 year old. This is not the only instance, just one of several and on several different shows. Like I said, I never mentioned ethics, just is it fair to the animal. It can be a huge advantage for the hunter. Where I hunt, not so much as our season opens in mid october and it is hard to get deer on a feeding pattern. I really believe where the seasons opens early say Sept.1st to Sept 25th. these cameras really give folks an advantage,It is much easier to pattern deer on an early season feeding pattern! These guys get an early seaon and can predict their patterns even easier with the use of trail cameras!! If it was a fluke these guys would not kill monster bucks(140"s or bigger) every year. I agree, when you have sponsors and can get 30 of these 3 and 400 dollar cameras these guys want to sell the product but they also use them to their advantage and that is where it may not be fair to the animal. The guys even comment a lot of times, "well we knew he was gonna be here with the right wind, all we had to do was make the 12 yard shot"!! Just my opinion, but no one can tell me it does not make a difference, take the cameras away and see if they can pattern a buck the same way, meaning the exact times and their movements. Even with all the old tricks like thread across the runs and such I don't think it would be pssible. Again, no problem with guys using them if it floats there boat but I really believe this will become an issue with P&Y and B&C as the use of electronic devices is not considered fair chase and if guys continue to post on shows and the internet comments like "I would of never killed this buck if it was not for my trailcam!" people will start to take notice. Respectfully, Shawn
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I have four cameras. Do they take away from my woodsmanship...I say not. Do you think I walk into the woods with a blindfold on, bump into a tree and hang the camera? Of course not I have to use my woodsmanship to know where to hang it.
From all the folks I know who use cameras I only know of one guy that has as many as 40 of them and he has no less than 10 places to hunt and doesn't use all of them on a single spot. I don't think that ever is the case. It may be on a paid outfitted hunt but that's a whole other issue in itself. 99% of the camera guys I know have 1-5. The only reason he has so many is he gets them for free.
If you think cameras are unethical and have never used one. Well that would be like someone asking you what you thought of a certain bow and you giving your opinion even though you have never shot one. If you think they are unethical I would like to challenge you to go get one and then find a deer you would like to take and go kill him. After you kill him and still think they are unethical you will then have a valid opinion.
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By the way, I have a couple and do use them to see what is out there.! Shawn
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For those who think they are unethical. Is it ethical for a person to pay the outfitter to scout, hang a stand, and tell you what time a certain deer will come by. Not much difference, except in cost, or wouldn't seem to be anyway, in the way it has been explained here.
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Shawn, those deer those guys are hunting must be wearing watches. Or, more likely, they're coming in to a feeder. I've never seen a free range deer come to the exact spot day after day at the same time without some outside influence. It takes very, very little to make a mature buck change it's habits. Sure you can find any extreme case to point out an abuse of anything, but the average guy isn't going to be buying 20 trail cameras.
The way I see it is that they just confirm what we already know. I mean, if you have any sense at all, you'll place it where you've already determined there is something to watch. Deer especially bucks, leave signs. Rubs, scrapes, footprints, beds, visual sightings, etc. Like TJ said, it's not like some dude just randomly straps one to any old tree, gets a picture of a deer and, a month later, can go back to that same tree and kill that deer. That's silly.
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For me personally... I don't use them. But it's more of an economical thing. I only get to spend so much on hunting and fishing and I ain't going to use that money on something like a dad blame camera.
Now what is unethical IMO is the assumption these things scout for you or etc. I know several people who rely entirely too much on these and bait them etc and yet don't spend hardly anytime in the woods themselves.
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Theres no whitetails here and our blacktails realy have no one area they stay at. But I think the cameras might be fun. Cheating ? Some might say not napping your owen points and not making your bow from scratch or having the latist camo or that real stylish wool shirt and that 4x4 that got you there is cheating. Who cares what others do. And some going to complane i ran all this together.
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Looper ya must not hunt much or pattern deer much. I have set on the edge of a large field 50 acres every year now for 18 years and during Sept. I can pretty much tell you where and what time certain deer will show up, sometimes for as much as 10 straight days. Sometimes only a few days, but with a trail camera I would not have to be there spreading my scent or worrying about wind and still tell you. No they are not coming to a feeder but a lush full field of alfalfa and clover, or soybeans or turnips, whatever. These guys are hunting prime food plots, again I have no problem with others doing it, just not me as I do not think it is an unfair advantage. I don't think scent killers and camo or GPS are unfair, so to each his own. Do people know that if you use a radio to tell a buddy that a giant whitetail is heading there way or is 15 yards behind them that P&Y will not allow the trophy to be entered? I myself could care less about that, but they feel it is not in the rules of what is fair to the animal. Shawn
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I've never had to steal anything to find out if it's ethical or not.I shouldnt have to try a trail cam to see if it fits with my ethics.It just is'nt my thing.I love the mystery of the hunt.
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Interesting opinions, thanks guys.
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I agree with Shawn. 90% of the guys I know that use cameras use them the way he describes, and if they aren't just casting a wide net, they are all aimed at a bait pile.
I don't own any, but I can think of one instance where I would like to. I hunt a huge tract of public land - 35,000 acres. I've got several oddball funnel spots I would like to hunt, but the wind is seldom right, and in some cases I'm not even sure deer use the funnels. I'd like to stick a camera in those kinds of places and just see if anything turns up.
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WOW, the dreded question if something gives us as hunters an unfair advantage over the animals that we persue. My thought is trail cameras are only a tool. No more of an advantage than treestands, binos, scentlock type clothing,portable ground blinds, rubber boots, camo clothing, carbon or aluminium arrows, synthetic bow strings, arial photos and the list of whats an unfair advantage could go on forever. I guess we could hunt with selfbows,wooden arrows with stone points in loin clothes if we wanted to be completely fair. But someone would come along and say that the bow and arrow really puts the animal at an unfair advantage because a deer doesn't get one! It's a silly argument that really only devides us in the lifestyle we so love.
Glenn
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There's a line in a John Mellencamp song that goes, "I try somethin' once and then I do it to death!" That's what I think about some of these things. There's a line that is crossed. It's a tough call where that is but when you have a better chance at killing a certain deer than that deer has of escaping, I'd argue that it has been crossed.
I like Midwest Whitetails in some ways but their extensive use of trailcams to target a buck on their "hitlists" is over the top.
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Originally posted by Coonbait:
WOW, the dreded question if something gives us as hunters an unfair advantage over the animals that we persue. My thought is trail cameras are only a tool. No more of an advantage than treestands, binos, scentlock type clothing,portable ground blinds, rubber boots, camo clothing, carbon or aluminium arrows, synthetic bow strings, arial photos and the list of whats an unfair advantage could go on forever. I guess we could hunt with selfbows,wooden arrows with stone points in loin clothes if we wanted to be completely fair. But someone would come along and say that the bow and arrow really puts the animal at an unfair advantage because a deer doesn't get one! It's a silly argument that really only devides us in the lifestyle we so love.
Glenn
:biglaugh: exactly Wow.
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I dispise debates like this,,, when the better that you because I do or do not........ Exposes themselves...
Ken
Trad hunting with or with out a trail cam..? I don't care, have fun and get in the woods :)
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Originally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Looper ya must not hunt much or pattern deer much.
Seriously? For your information, I've been hunting whitetails for over 30 years. In that short span, hunting in some very difficult areas, I've shot 35 deer off of public land here. I'm not talking yearlings, either. Most are mature deer. That is no small feat. In some of these areas, even seeing a deer is considered a victory. I've got rifle hunting buddies that consider themselves good hunters if they get a deer every other year.
I've also shot around 15 off of my family's land. That time frame also includes 15 years when I didn't live here. I don't hunt food plots and don't hunt bait stations.
I have 75 acres that I lease out to a local farmer. Every other year he plants corn or beans. In between squash or tomatoes. The years he plants corn, deer are everywhere, and, yes, sometimes they'll come in at the same time of day for a week , maybe two. But I can tell you with great certainty that it doesn't take much to bump them off that schedule. A lost coon dog, a storm front, the crop pickers, whatever. My point is that there is no way to know what happens each day that might cause them to change their patterns. They are not robots.
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I don't have enough days off from work as it is. If I really knew what was in my woods I doubt I'd be employed!
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I don't have a problem with the ethics of cameras. I have a problem with the electronics. I have just about gave up on them. I have 3 on my lease now and one does not work at all, one only takes daytime pics, and the third only takes pics when it wants to. They cost too much for me to sink any more money into them to only get a year or two out of them. Just my perspective.
Bisch
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I use cameras in known areas that I have hunted in the past. The pictures are pretty cool to see whats out there. Pretty neat to get a picture of a deer before you harvest it. Hasn't happened to me yet!!
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The cameras when used only as cameras are fine with me. I would have no problems using them for fun and interesting pictures, just as I would my digital Canon. But here's where my mind diverges:
I enjoy the traditional aspects of hunting big game the hard way. I consider the use of electronics to be the antithesis of traditional hunting styles. It is totally unethical for me to use electronics (as in circuit boards and processors) to help me actually find and (therefore) successfully kill an animal. I know a lot of folks will disagree with me, but so be it. I've hunted with a bow for many decades, and I've never resorted to using electronic devices in the field to give me an edge. I long ago made that pledge to myself, and I'll never break it.
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I don`t have one. Would be cool I think but i hunt mostly public land and I would`nt want to tempt a feller to steal....
That said my syle of hunting they would not work. I may walk five miles in the swamp checking feed trees till I find a primary feed tree to hunt over. I climb and hunt. Works for me. I feel a great deal of satisfaction hunting this way.
I`m not sure if setting up on a trail or field you have pinpointed a deers movement too in time and place then climbing and shooting him due to this info you gathered from a Camera is hunting.Shooting maybe?
No disrespect intended. We all hunt for different reasons and satisfaction is gathered in many ways afield and if you enjoy the cameras have fun. Its all good.RC
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I like to protect at least one aspect of my life from the high tech fast paced gotta have it materialistic culture we live in. I like to keep my hunting as low tech as possible, it is better for my soul. I try to be as electronic and gadget free as possible, and if that causes me to get less deer I am ok with that.
I also think trail cameras are low on the list of concerns I have with fair chase ethics, so if people want to use them then go for it, the pictures are always fun to see.
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Trail cams can't be ethical, it's the folks who use or abuse them that are ethical or unethical.
If you rely soley on camera stats to locate and kill, then I for one would question your ethics as a killer, not a hunter.
One mans opinion.
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Originally posted by Pepper:
Trail cams can't be ethical, it's the folks who use or abuse them that are ethical or unethical.
If you rely soley on camera stats to locate and kill, then I for one would question your ethics as a killer, not a hunter.
One mans opinion.
Thats about where I am at on the subject right now...
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I was on the fence for a long while, but it has helped me in several situations, I own 3, and dont use it to pinpoint a deer/deers, but just to be aware of what is actually on the properties I hunt, and as of late, I use them more for hunting predators, mainly coyotes than anything else. A valuable, ethical tool, but each to his own. This reminds me of the article in current issue of Traditional bowhunter mag, chastising traditionalists for using pop up blinds to turkey hunt, making it too easy. It does help a lot, but more time than not, the turkeys have way more advantage, at least for me huntiing them! I am careful of anythinking, that puts me in a box of cant do/can do etc. I trad bow hunt only, but also use ML's, and high power rifles. If not, I would miss out on a lot of great memories hunting with friends, and not make as many new ones. Trail cameras are just plain fun to me, you will have to decide for yourself.
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I wonder how many would be against setting on a high ridge out west scouting and patterning animals over a wide expanse of space using a spotting scope or good pair of high magnification binoculars. Shame on anyone not putting down the boot leather, and reading sign to find a critter. You shouldn’t be using high tech unnatural observation devices like that to observe animals at a distance where they are not aware of your presence.
I found a great looking spot where a buck it rubbing and scraping up the area. I planned to hunt him this week. A friend living very close buy said he has seen the buck crossing the road into that spot a couple times a week at about 6 in the evening. Now I wonder if I should hunt him given he has been observed and patterned to some extent. :D
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Sorry, but comparing something that actually takes a picture and tells you the time a deer was there and in some cases the weather conditions to a treestand or bow or anything mentioned is like comparing apples to oranges. None of the things mentioned help me pattern an animal to the point I know when it takes a dump. Again it seems my points are being picked out and I really could care less if ya use one or a hundred, because the people who use them to actually do as I said in my statement have to be happy with themselves and no one else. I myself would not be happy with myself. I actually have a buddy who uses them as described and he does kill some nice deer every year, funny he always killed a nice buck every 4 or 5 years but now that he sets up 15 to 20 cameras on his 137 acres he magically kills one every year. I know he spends a lot less time in the woods the last 4 years as well, maybe it is a coincidence but I doubt it. I am happy for him too. I also will say they are not a guarantee you will kill more deer but they sure as hell help more than my arrows or treestand or the bow I shoot. There is no argueing some facts, you do not have to spend as much time in the woods thus reducing not only the scent you spread but the noise you make and the visual cues to deer. Go ahead and use them, I have nothing bad to say about anyone who does, just don't preach to the people who choose not too. I like John like Mid-West whitetails but they go overboard as do many others with their use of trail cameras to assist them in killing certain bucks. Face it, on properties like they have a lot of us could kill a good buck each year by just putting in our time, the old fashioned way!! Have fun and as my wife of 25 years would say "Do whatever blows your hair back!" Shawn
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
quote:
Originally posted by Coonbait:
WOW, the dreded question if something gives us as hunters an unfair advantage over the animals that we persue. My thought is trail cameras are only a tool. No more of an advantage than treestands, binos, scentlock type clothing,portable ground blinds, rubber boots, camo clothing, carbon or aluminium arrows, synthetic bow strings, arial photos and the list of whats an unfair advantage could go on forever. I guess we could hunt with selfbows,wooden arrows with stone points in loin clothes if we wanted to be completely fair. But someone would come along and say that the bow and arrow really puts the animal at an unfair advantage because a deer doesn't get one! It's a silly argument that really only devides us in the lifestyle we so love.
Glenn
:thumbsup:
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My two-year-old trail camera that LOVES to eat C batteries helped me find this doe that had been hit hard by the severe drought we had for months.
I had placed a salt block out in the woods but after seeing what this doe looked like, I put out a bag of corn near this camera to give her something to eat.
A lot of the plants were stunted, my planted food plots died and were overrun by other species and the creek dried up to nothing but rock.
I don't think it's unethical. It helps me know who's in the neighborhood and what condition my deer are in.
For the last two years I have collected doe photos and they have been stocky and healthy. This one kind of startled me with how thin it looked.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e311/Blacktalons/DroughtDeer-1-1.jpg)
I'm pretty sure you can tell the difference between photos. This is from one year ago.
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e311/Blacktalons/fatdeer2-1-1.jpg)
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Each to their own .
I use my archery and bowhunting as a tool to get away from things stressful and modern . It is a freedom of mind to wander the woods in expectation and trail camera's would take that away for me .I always enjoy seeing others photo's though .
But for others , getting their deer is probably more important than it is to me, or they may have reduced leisure time or limited access etc and a camera may help them enjoy their hunting more so I make no judgements ... just choices .
But I'm pretty sure Maurice Thompson would slap me upside the head for using one ......
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Ben you make a great statement "I make no judgements just choices." Well said! Shawn
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I'll throw this up for fun and discussion...
A camera that senses movement or heat and snaps a film picture...became a digital one that logged in data related to the date and time...became one with additional capabilities to sense and record climate variables...became one that integrates and communicates with your smart(?)phone via the cellular network. How much additional capabilities are awaiting development?
Forty miles from my home there is a company that manufactures trail cam systems. These systems use multiple cameras which relay their images and data to a main "server" camera. In essence, a web-work of cameras can be established around a given property, and real-time images are transmitted from the "server" camera. These images and related data are either transmitted to your phone or computer by radio signal (to a base station receiver) or by cellular network. Is there an app for that?
The upshot is that a hunter CAN be sitting on a deer stand while watching his smart(?)phone for instant data which tells him about deer movements at a different stand...or many of them. Do you like the idea of guys having as many wireless communication devices as they can afford out there in the woods? You may not be using them at this advanced level, but the technology is now in place and being used.
I consider all this to be more about the slippery slope. How do you argue against 2 guys using cell phones to communicate deer movements, while allowing an expensive electronic device to communicate the same (or maybe better) information to a hunter? Splitting hairs? Are you ready for solar-charged real-time video surveillance while we hunt? How much circuitry in the woods is too much? How traditional is its use?
Do you prefer the science of technology over the art of hunting?
And finally...ever think that there might come a day when you'll say, "Jeez...we should have controlled electronic technology before it became 'the new traditional'?
Fun to think about, isn't it?
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I agree. Here is what Greg Munther had to say:
"Surveys show that most Americans support hunting for food. What turns average folks against hunting is not the antics of antis but the behavior of hunters themselves. When animals are shot only for trophies or hunted under other than fair chase conditions, when game is wounded and not recovered or otherwise suffers unnecessarily-all such events influence average citizens against hunting. We can't remain passive on such issues as ethics and hunter conduct and expect hunting to survive in America."
And:
"If the military has a piece of technology that can be adapted to make hunting easier or more successful, a major hunting catalog outlet will likely be selling some version of it within five years. Rangefinders, GPS devices, night-vision optics, and trail cameras have all ganged up to relegate woodsmanship to the back burner."
(From his interview in TRad Bowhunter mag.)
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At some point we are going to have to choose. Don't rock the boat and let it all just take over the sport, or draw a line. Sorry, but none of us are going to get away with being polite ("live an let live") on this larger issue and save hunting. Sad, but its true.
Joshua
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Most people do not use cameras to "pinpoint" a buck and waltz in there and kill him. Most of the time they are placed in high traffic, night time areas for seeing what's out there, if bucks are in "an area," finding out if you have too many hogs or coons, etc. Also, if you are working hard to manage property - planting trees, shredding, food plots, thinning timber, passing bucks, it is a way to confirm the results of what you are doing and give you some motivation.
It can be like a side hobby and a lot of "fun" to stay up late looking at pics - beats watching a crappy hunting show on tv.
I'm also not sure that going in and trying to "pinpoint" a big buck is all that doable in a lot of circumstances. Just about every mature buck I've seen on cam is always looking right at the cam and avoids that area until night. Everyone knows about "educating" deer, and constantly checking cams is certainly one way to do that.
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When you can shoot that buck while looking at him through said camera, then I will call cameras unethical (anyone remember something like this being offered on a Texas ranch a few years back?).
Until then, cameras are just another scouting tool. making things harder does not necessarily make them more ethical.
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The thread is about is it ethical or not? If you think it is not ethical, you are saying it is easier to kill a buck with a trail camera than without one. My point is that the ones that have said this in this thread have not actually done it so how would they know? You may have a camera but have you actually patterned a buck with it and killed him??? If you have not done that then you don't know if it is easier.
I check my cameras on average of every three days. I am walking into a mature bucks lair every three days. Sitting atop a ridge watching a field is no where near the intrusion I am making.
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I have hunted with guys that use a GPS and I can tell you it IS easier for them to find a spot in the wilderness than I can using my compass and map. And to say using a camera is not making it easier is just not true. Knowing what the animal looks like, for example, whether a takable buck or not tells you something very important. To hunt that area or not.
C'mon. But lets get to the bottom of what we are arguing. Its to save hunting. Not whether or not you or I differ on what defines ethical. As long as the debate is limited to that circular and unending debate, the technology creep will continue unabated and eventually destroy our sport. There, I said it! That is my point of view and why I do not like these devices. They are part of a larger tehno onslaught that is degrading our sport.
J-
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If the contention is that game cameras do not make it easier (to locate, pattern and kill) then it begs two questions for clarification:
1) Are the literally millions of these cameras in use only for the fun of recording game images, and not for aiding the hunter toward a kill?
2) Is perception reality here? If a guy thinks these electronics are a great help (buys them) does that send the message that we're okay with progressive development and implementation of game-locating technology?
The final sentence is where my ethical dilemma (and line) begins. At what point are we using electronic-tech to the point of abusing it? Think you can stop this thing when you decide it's too much?
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GPS has nothing to do with a trail camera you are getting off the subject discussion. Here is the thread title
Topic: Trail Cameras....ethical or not?
Also where did you get the idea this thread was about saving hunting and trail cameras or any technology was going to "End all hunting"? That statement is ludicrous and a total thread hijack. Can we stay on track here?
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The choice of if it's ethical using trail cams lays inside of you. You are the one that decides if you choose to use them or not use them.
For me if I could afford them and if they could e mail the immages to my computer so I wouldn't have to go there spreading my scent around and if I had private land to place them on I would use them.
That's a lot of "if's"
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
GPS has nothing to do with a trail camera you are getting off the subject discussion. Here is the thread title
Topic: Trail Cameras....ethical or not?
It was used to illustrate a point that is very much part of the topic. Are trail cam ethical. Read my post. A discussion about ethics IS about our sport and its health.
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Makes no difference how they are marketed. The thread title asks if it is ethical (easier) or not? I am saying it is not easier because I have done it both ways. Again until you can post your pictures showing you have done it I am saying your argument otherwise has no credibility.
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Point taken. I thinks its a thinly supported one,;0) but I will accept it for face value.
We all feel pretty strongly about this subject. Are such cameras ethical? I think its because it gets at a fundamental issue behind it. But perhaps we are not ready to have that conversation yet, but I believe its one we will have to engage in soon.
J-
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I think there's a fundamental problem here. Making something harder does not make it more ethical. Likewise making something easier does not make it less ethical. The two have nothing to do with one another.
Pushing a spear through a human being is a lot more difficult than shooting someone with a rifle. That doesn't mean that killing someone with a spear is ethical.
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Do you know what a boost it gives you to capture a nice buck when you didn't know he existed? It sure helps me sit a little longer!
If you use them instead of scouting, you may have a problem with them but using them in addition to the hours and hours you spend in the woods, I don't see how anyone could consider it cheating. You still have to hunt the wind and make the shot.
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People where I live use a camera called a plotwatcher that takes still photos on a timer all day every day and condenses that into a short video when you download it. Kind of like a surveillance camera. This camera will watch a wide area too. It doesn't depend on the deer coming close and triggering it. It just constantly records everything that happens in a parking lot size area as long as it's there.
Now a fellow hunting on 600 acres with 4 or 5 of these cameras can absolutely have the place figured out in no time. People love it here for the same reason they love bait - it makes it easier to kill more deer with less effort. The promise of more deer kills with less effort sells like hotcakes here.
Such a device used in such a way is a major shortcut compared to not using cameras at all. Just because I use a glass bow instead of a wood one I carved out myself or steel broadheads instead of stone points absolutely does not disqualify me from saying what is obviously the plain truth. Yes, using a fast flight string could also be considered a shortcut, but those sorts of comparisons are hogwash. It's not even close to as big a shortcut.
All types of trail cams are illegal on some federal lands here already.
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Makes no difference how they are marketed. The thread title asks if it is ethical (easier) or not? I am saying it is not easier because I have done it both ways. Again until you can post your pictures showing you have done it I am saying your argument otherwise has no credibility.
You are 100% missing the point. Ethics do not need to be "done" or "proved" in order to be valid. They are a value...a belief...and they lead you down the path you choose. Your argument would invalidate anyone's opinion that something is ethically wrong for them, simply because they have never done it. I've not done a lot of things in life that I believe are ethically wrong for me.
The thread title does not use the word "easier".
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I don't worry too much about other folks ethics. It falls into the same category as the weather, I don't control it and I can't do a thing about it. It just makes me angry, without any benefit, for my personal feelings to get played into such a broad spectrum of ideas.
However, I will say this: 90% of the time, I deplore seeing trail cameras in the woods. It agravates me to no end that I can be miles from any human being and have to check every tree and bush before I relieve myself. It is intrusive! Just to know that my picture will wind up on some yahoo's cell-phone makes me want to scream. For that alone I wish they were never invented.
Had a "friend" last year that set out a camera and then got mad when he caught me hunting "his" buck. What?!? I was hunting deer, had no idea what the buck looked like or that he belonged to another person! Well, I just don't need that kind of issue going on in my favorite past-time, regardless if that guy was a true friend or not.
For what it's worth, around my parts, the camera is more likely to be taken than a deer. Private property or public, they seem to be on everyones list of favorite things to steal. Actually, I have a buddy that uses them only to see who's trespassing or otherwise misusing his property.
I've had a couple of situations where I would have liked to have one, but I can't afford to buy something just to have it stolen or destroyed ... so I guess it's a non-issue for me. Good discussion here though.
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And yes...for the record:
I do believe game cameras are unethical for me to use. That's because I'm supporting a segment of the sport which will continue to propogate electronic technology into the field, and give us as much advantage over our quarry as dollars can buy. I see a problem down the road, but it's not a road I'm going to help build.
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unethical - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior
Pope and Young
“Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."
By the very definition it is completely unethical if you use these during the hunting season!
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for everyone that claims electronic spying does not "help" the mighty hunter to kill a c ertain deer ,here is how it unfolds
Mr BBH (big buk hunter 8^) ..... has permission to hunt 3 farms, season has been open a few weeks and mr. BBH hasnt seen a buk he is interested in tagging for his trophy collection . He is hunting farm "A" 60% of the time because last july he saw a couple of shooters in the bean field on that property .
Today mr BBH checks his electronic spy cameras on all three farms and "oh yay" there are 49 pics of a whopper using his food plot on farm "C". Our hero immediatley begins hunting farm C and 3 days later he slays "the wide dark horned 10" ... LOL .
Now heres the rub .......... without his electronic spy he would not even know this deer existed ,he would still be hunting farm A , woodsmanship ,deer savvy , and scouting ( reading sign etc) had zero contribution to our heros success story . Without the electronics this "wide dark horned 10" lives a couple more seasons and dies of natural causes carrying a world record class set of antlers .
Like I said in an earlier post , they are fun during the off season but they should be required to be removed from the field before hunting seasons open .
Just my honest opinion ....... :bigsmyl:
At least we all have to admit one thing ............... scouting cameras are not being used to kill does or yearling buks .......... it is all about big antlers .
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TJKentucky, that is my point, I do not want to find out!! I see guys doing it and killing deer by using them. As said above the technology will just become more advanced. The question cannot be answered as ethics are too broad, what one person feels is ethical another may not. Ethics no one can judge what is or is not, only the lord if you believe in him. It is just ones opinion, I would not answer the qusetion as it may make me a hypocrite, as I have a camera on a trail right now and have seen 6 bucks using this run, I am pulling the camera today but I will hunt that run at some point this year. My point is I am not setting up more cameras closer to the bedding area and the food source and eventually patterning these deer to a tee like some folks are doing. I love the pics. of big bucks and the turkeys actually pecking at my camera, I just think at some point the line is crossed. Do an on-line search and you will see as mentioned above the technology exists that allows some(not many due to the cost) but some, to actually use these cameras set in a certain way to no doubt pattern deer and kill them. Ethical I cannot decide that, it is just not what I think hunting should be about. TJ the way you are using your cameras to me is not an issue, it is the folks who are going over the top with their use. Some folks say baiting is unethical well if it is legal does that make it ethical? Lots of stuff out there that is considered legal but ethical, come on. Trail Cameras when used a certain way may not be fair to the animals we hunt or maybe they are, see my point? Shawn
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
Makes no difference how they are marketed. The thread title asks if it is ethical (easier) or not? I am saying it is not easier because I have done it both ways. Again until you can post your pictures showing you have done it I am saying your argument otherwise has no credibility.
You are 100% missing the point. Ethics do not need to be "done" or "proved" in order to be valid. They are a value...a belief...and they lead you down the path you choose. Your argument would invalidate anyone's opinion that something is ethically wrong for them, simply because they have never done it. I've not done a lot of things in life that I believe are ethically wrong for me.
The thread title does not use the word "easier". [/b]
Agreed Kevin. I am debating the statements in this thread that are alluding to making it easier and whether or not that is Ethical.
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...and for the record T.J....I do always respect your thoughts here. I think of you as an ethical man. Appreciate this discussion.
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Originally posted by Bill Tell:
unethical - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior
Pope and Young
“Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."
By the very definition it is completely unethical if you use these during the hunting season!
Great illustrative post. A very recognized and prominent organization believes as stated.
The rub is simply the numbers of people (not TG-rs) who couldn't care less about ethics or having any limits based on them. The new ethic seems to often relate to "can I do this legally", instead of "should I support this behavior"?
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I missed the post on the P&Y rules, which I knew what they were. The trail camera thing has its merits, so if you post on a public forum ,pics. of a giant buck you have been hunting and write"I knew he was hitting this food plot at 530 every evening" than kill this buck on that food plot and post"without my trailcam I would of not ever found this buck" the buck does not qualify for P&Y????? It is not an issue for me as I would not enter an animal in the books, as I hunt for me and only me but it is an issue!! I too support TJ and always respect his views on a variety of subjects, as I am sure he does the same towards me. Shawn
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Thank you Kevin and Shawn. I to appreciate a good discussion. Hopefully we can revisit it more in depth over a campfire some day.
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I agree with you Kevin that some people only look at activities based on the law but I'm not sure that I want legislators getting involved either. Who would decide if something needed to be outlawed?
I can see there is a slippery slope here and once something gets traction, it's harder to stop, especially if there is money involved.
At present, it is legal in most areas and each hunter will have to decide whether or not it meets their own ethical standard.
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I don't know if it was mentioned in an earlier post yet or not, but Fred Asbell had a very good article on this not too long ago in TBM. In my opinion, his very valid point was (paraphrased) one thing may not seem "unethical" by itself, but if you start lumping things together (trail camera's, baiting, ect), you've now collectively moved the bar a lot compared to a self bow and flint arrow point tipped cane arrow while stalking on the ground in buckskins.
I've known Roger for some time now and I was in camp with him for the first time when he came back and told the story of passing up a dandy buck from the ground (mere yards away)because of a poor shot angle. Roger has time and again displayed ethics and character in hunting camp.
His question is very valid and I think it really goes back to what G. Fred has already written about...at what point collectively is it going too far???
I'm personnally taking a slight step back this year. For many years now I've been using carbon arrows. This year I'm back to hunting from the ground occassionally and also using wood arrows. It's not that I was killing monster bucks or anything like that, but it's a personal challenge. I think that's part of what make up our ethics. You could have the latest and greatest cell phone monitored trail camera that would tell you whats going on in your woods, but if you were shooting a bow with an effective range of 5 yards and wearing a blinking neon suit from a stool in the open, you're probably not going to be successful.
It's a great question, and the responses provide food for thought, but ultimately-because it's ethics, it's going to come down to what's in your heart.
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ethical is a word that people will always debate do to the difference in hunting and life styles,If I can go to sleep at night without questioning my actions during the day then it is "ethical" to me,and thats all that matters!I hunt for me,I decide if the arrow leaves the string!Do cameras make it easier,I have used them on and off for years and I would say,in my case no,you still sit you still have to pull off the shot you still have to blood trail you still have to drag the animal,woodsmanship should not be in question you have to figure out where to place the camera,if you think you just put them in the woods and deer just start showing up your wrong.Benefits of the camera over the years is I have caught 2 trespessers on my lands and have been able to show them and now the stay off with involving the police,upstate NY had close to 25" of rain and very high winds,I hunt a oak ridge and knew the acorns could be gone off the trees and in fact some of the trees are gone,so I sat my stand one night with my son and saw 1 doe after 3 hours,then after 6 hours of scouting moved some old stands 7 to be exact,in 6 hours I heard 3 acorns fall from the trees on the ridge,not a good sign,past years your would need a hard hat in there.So I put a camera in for a week and saw plenty of deer still there and turkey,and ticks!!So I pulled the camera because of theft issues in the past,and I also dont like going in to check pics every few days do to jumping deer and leaving scent,so now I know the deer are there and I can use my limited time to hunt hopfully a productive area.Using the cameras is also fun because you can share pics with your family and friends so they can see whats in the woods and could maybe spur a new hunter?Ethical is a word that will always bring in emotion,I will always make it up to me,I have to live with my action not you and like wise,so I wish everyone good luck with or without cameras,carbon,allumium,wood arrows,what ever broadhead,scent killer spray or machines or nothing,factory bows,custom bows,ground hunters or treestand hunters,etc,etc,etc,just remember we are all on the same team to keep the outdoor lifestyle alive and well,so last but most important before any of your equipment goes in the woods be sure your kids are with you first so they can carry the lifestyle on,they way they choose to!Good luck shoot straight!
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sorry for the few typing mistakes,most you can figure out but the one I wanted to make a point on is with the camera I was able to confront the trespessers with the picture and not involve the police,and have built a outdoor relationship with both of them.Boundries have been set and we will help each other blood trail and drag etc.
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Originally posted by 2020:
ethical is a word that people will always debate do to the difference in hunting and life styles,If I can go to sleep at night without questioning my actions during the day then it is "ethical" to me,and thats all that matters!
Here's another stance that always comes up in debates about hunting... moral or ethical relativism
Whether or not you can sleep at night is absolutely NOT all that matters. There are people who can sleep at night after murdering, raping and stealing for fun or profit, but the fact that they are personally OK with themselves after such acts doesn't make those acts ethical.
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they are more fun than anything to me, I have yet to find a deer that stops by on a regular schedule.
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Originally posted by Bill Tell:
unethical - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior
Pope and Young
“Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."
By the very definition it is completely unethical if you use these during the hunting season!
Excuse me if I don't think the P&Y club has the authority to set ethical standards for traditional bowhunters
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My thoughts exactly Wayne.
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Originally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
...Excuse me if I don't think the P&Y club has the authority to set ethical standards for traditional bowhunters
Interesting. I never even considered that. So who does, besides ourselves? What I am grappling with, is how do you stand up for and protect something that you believe in (our right to hunt) without taking that stand when something is going on you feel will slowly degrade that right? It is the few who will use cameras in a way that reflects poorly on us all. The implications are huge for the sport. The two issues, ethics and perception by non-hunters, are linked. You cannot discuss one without the other.
I don't have an issue with a lot of what has been said in defense of cameras.
I have an issue with how little connection we make to how using them is perceived outside our little group.
J-
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"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."
A trail cam is not some sort of "locating" device as a radio neck collar, nor do they "attract" or "guide" the hunter.
IMO the P&Y interpretation doesn't meet the definition of a trail camera. Not that I care about what P&Y thinks. P&Y is a "club" to which I have chosen not to join for my own personel reasons.
I am a cam addict! I love the things! I run upwards of 8 a week thru the summer and during season. Do they help persuade me as to which farm to hunt?? I'd be lying if I said they didn't. If I have a better chance of meeting up w/ one of 6 shooter bucks on 600ac down the street....compared to 1 shooter on my home 200a.....I'm headed to the 600a farm during the rut!
I have used them during the early season to pinpoint high activity areas in bean fields and other food sources, but that is about the only time you will ever "pattern" and mature whitetail IMO. I use the word "pattern" losely as it's never a sure thing. Does this make them less ethical?...no. I see them as just another tool. No less ethical than using an atv to drag him out.
Having the ability to track a certain deer thru the years of his life is priceless to me.
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Good point JHG. The only problem with the linking of the two, non-hunters and ethics, is for change to occur, normally thru new laws, two things are required: numbers (read votes) and money. The Traditional Archery segment is probably the smallest in numbers and generates the least amount of money due to the fact we don't use a lot of accessories or gadgets if you will.
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I don't know about more laws- my thinking has not evolved on this subject enough to have an opinion on that yet.
I am realizing that becoming more active locally in hunting groups near me, to add my voice to the larger conversation about where hunting is headed and how how our choices as individuals can best serve it, may be a good step for me.
In the past I have always hunted but remained separate from any organizations, groups or even hunting partners.
Joshua
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If you eliminate PCB's and electronic devices we are all out of business. This Board would cease, no more driving in post 1970 vehicles to go hunting, no radios, walkie talkies, cameras or alarm clocks-except the wind up kind-and no computers of any kind including cell phones.
I'll draw my own lines and won't worry about where you draw yours.
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Originally posted by Bjorn:
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I'll draw my own lines and won't worry about where you draw yours.
Divided we fall. I think it is our individualism that will be our undoing, at least in this regard. I can relate to being unto oneself. Been that way myself for a long time.
I've gotten a lot from this thread, but don't have a lot more to add except the days are past when we could just go into the woods and not have to think about what we do and how it is seen by others.
J-
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A camera is a thing and has no ethics. As a hunter I have my own personal code of ethics that I follow. If I use my longbow to take a deer before/after season or before/after legal shooting hours, I am unethical and a law breaker, but it isn't my longbows fault! :knothead:
I have two trail cameras on a 62 acre property that I am privileged to hunt and maintain. I have two food plots on that property with a camera on each one. I DO NOT hunt on either food plot nor have I ever taken a buck that I have pictures of. I may have actually seen one of the bucks once last season but I can't say that for sure.
I've only seen a coyote on two occasions, but trailcam photos this season shows me there are quite a few of them running the property. A trapline is in order for this winter.
Hunt safe, hunt hard! >>>-------->Mike
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oops! double clutched
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"Excuse me if I don't think the P&Y club has the authority to set ethical standards for traditional bowhunters".
I absolutely agree 100% with this statement. Their standards are obviously set for their members who are willing to agree with and abide by them.
We all set our own ethical boundaries as we think are best for our lives and this sport we love so much.
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Divided we fall only applies if we refuse to stand up for each other. It has nothing to do with whether we tolerate the use of trail cameras or not.
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Consider what Webster says about "locate"
: to determine or indicate the place, site, or limits of
2: to set or establish in a particular spot : station
3: to seek out and determine the location of
4: to find or fix the place of especially in a sequence.
Seems to me that a game cam does become a "locating" devise.
SO, does that "dis-qualify" the Pope & Young buck you killed???
According to the rules...
It will be very interesting to see how the Board of Directors of P & Y deals with this...
Bob
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
"Excuse me if I don't think the P&Y club has the authority to set ethical standards for traditional bowhunters".
I absolutely agree 100% with this statement. Their standards are obviously set for their members who are willing to agree with and abide by them.
We all set our own ethical boundaries as we think are best for our lives and this sport we love so much.
So you do not support Fair Chase?
What about Izzak Walton?
Izzak Walton
C) Fair Chase
1) The League urges states to: a) Maximize conservation opportunities, fair chase, and ethics when
creating policy on the use of electronic technology in hunting...
Again when following the rules of fair chase then by definition the use of cameras is unethical.
By definition of ethical you can not set what an ethic is by your own conclusion. It is a social standard not an individual standard.
If you state that you are a fair chase hunter then you can not support the use of cameras during the season. Furthermore you can not separate the value of each rule as one being more important then the other. They are a collective agreement. So you are not able to condemn one for hunting high fence and then not condemn the use of cameras during season.
I hunt Fair Chase.
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I agree the P&Y club is just that and cannot set ethical standards but to say that a trail camera is not a locating device is false. Ok it is not a radio collar but when you can check your cell phone or computer and see a buck has walked by the same tree(camera is on said tree)3 days in a row between 7am and 730am and you go sit there on the 4th. day, maybe he shows maybe he doesn't but out of say 15 cameras you have placed this one shows a buck being the most consistent and you shoot him that 4th. day, you cannot say that the pictures and the regularity that he has been coming by did not influence your decision to sit that stand. I hope I make myself clear I am not against guys using them, even if they go what I consider overboard!!! I myself and myself only feel it is cheating a bit. Yet I don't feel I am cheating treating my clothes with Ozoneor using scent killing sprays so as stated it is a personal thin and nothing else. Shawn
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Yup Bob, technically if my bud is sitting a stand 100 yards from me and I see a P&Y buck sneaking in behind him and I text him on my cell phone and he turns around and shoots the buck the buck would not qualify according to a friend of mine who scores for P&Y. Ecsp. if my friend is talking to the measurer while the guys scores it and says, "Man I would of never seen this buck if my bud had not texted me and told me he was right behind me!" Tough question and could be interpreted different by different P&Y folks. I by the way do not belong nor would I enter an animal unless it was a world record as I would owe it to my family to enter it due to the financial gains!(I do have a couple kids in college) Yes I can be bought!! :biglaugh: Shawn
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Bill Tell,
Of course I support fair chase. I don't jump on the P&Y or Izaak Walton bandwagons though and I decidedly DON'T allow them to decide what I consider fair chase in all regards. Their definition does not automatically become mine. In many cases my def of fair chase is more conservative and limited than is theirs.
"If you state that you are a fair chase hunter then you can not support the use of cameras during the season."
Only if you agree with the rules of fair chase as written by these organizations of men...who hold no authority to impose their moral or ethical values on you, me or anyone.
You already know that I consider the use of trail cameras to be unethical for me. My opinion and ethics were not dictated to me by P&Y or IW or TG or.....anyone. I grew my own...thank you.
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Kevin, well said!! I also want to comment on the way everyone is conducting themselves!! These type of threads have a way of going downhill fast and people getting a bit touchy pretty quick(Me for one!!)but this thread has been a pleasure to participate in and I want to say I respect each and everyones opinion on here whether they like it or not!! :bigsmyl: Shawn
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Well Shawn...this is a very good thread in my book. How many places can you go and discuss ethical issues such as these with guys from CA to MA? There is much to learn and some to share. I feel sorry for those who may feel hostile when others' ethics don't match theirs.
Great thread!
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Originally posted by Mudd:
I've never owned one but not because of any ethical issues.
If someone were to give one to me I'd put it up somewhere just for the fun of seeing what's out there when I'm not.
I don't see anything wrong with that.
The biggest advantage for me would be the boost to my motivation in getting out there and/or hanging with it just another hr or so longer with anticipation.
My 2 cents worth.
If you got'em, use'em !!!
God bless,Mudd
That is exactly why I bought mine. It is cool to see what is lurking out there. I don't get a picture of a buck and hold off on all others waiting for him. The first good buck in range is taking a dirt nap. :thumbsup:
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Kevin mine too, did ya read my whole post. Great thread and my last comment was tongue in cheek as meant by the bigsmile!! Shawn
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Originally posted by [email protected]:
Consider what Webster says about "locate"
: to determine or indicate the place, site, or limits of
2: to set or establish in a particular spot : station
3: to seek out and determine the location of
4: to find or fix the place of especially in a sequence.
Seems to me that a game cam does become a "locating" devise.
SO, does that "dis-qualify" the Pope & Young buck you killed???
According to the rules...
It will be very interesting to see how the Board of Directors of P & Y deals with this...
Bob
That may put Fred Bear's kills in jeopardy too. I saw an interview with Ted Nugent that said Fred used to throw out corn for deer and use lures for game.
Hmmmm, might not be ethical by some "experts" opinions.
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
Bill Tell,
You already know that I consider the use of trail cameras to be unethical for me. My opinion and ethics were not dictated to me by P&Y or IW or TG or.....anyone. I grew my own...thank you.
The overall point that I am trying to make is that ethics can not be established by "I grew on my own" that is not what the word encompasses. It is a social standard and if we do not look for written definitions like P&Y and IW then it is unsubstantiated.
What you are describing is a personal code of conduct. A very good one I will acknowledge. Just consider they are two separate things. Consider this too, what would happen if you wrote down your personal code and shared it with us all? Well then it starts to become part of the social accepted ethical standard.
I am giving examples of where others have stated that the use of an electrical devise, encompassing trail cameras, are unethical in the field. I agree with them so I am participating in supporting their examples.
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From Webster, the definition of "ethics":
a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values
the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group
a guiding philosophy
a consciousness of moral importance
Bill...
You're then saying that it's not possible for a man to develop and have his own set of personal ethics...that he doesn't have ethics until they are part of a "social standard". (?) I call that a matter of semantics and your individual interpretation of ethics.
You're entitled to that of course. It doesn't mean that your interpretation of ethics is how the entire world views them. I completely reject the idea or position that someone cannot have ethics unless a "social standard" agrees with them. Webster pretty well shows the individual nature of ethics...see above.
"Code Of Conduct" refers to behavior based on a principle, but not necessarily on ethics.
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Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Divided we fall only applies if we refuse to stand up for each other. It has nothing to do with whether we tolerate the use of trail cameras or not.
I disagree.
In this case trail cameras are part of a larger bellweather(sp?) of equipment that are forcing us, and everyone else who has an opinion on hunting, (as well as those who do not yet) to look anew at the merits of the sport.
All I am advocating is we broaden our view when considering the ethical use of such devices to include the larger image of hunting. Again, I think they are linked. Thats all.
I will stand up for my brothers & sisters who hunt. But I do not want to see what we love eroded because in the end we could not agree on what is threatening it.
Joshua
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Originally posted by Bill Tell:
I am giving examples of where others have stated that the use of an electrical devise, encompassing trail cameras, are unethical in the field. I agree with them so I am participating in supporting their examples. [/b]
Well, that's the stance of luddism. It's anti-technological and advancement.
People may resist all they want, but technology prevails over all and life changes. And with the advent of electronic devices, digital and electronic items become standard to average life.
It may be your choice to not use cameras, and that's fine, but don't say it's unethical.
Unethical is riding on a Union Pacific train through The Great Plains shooting buffalo on a flatbed car for entertainment.
Unethical is flying over a herd of caribou and shooting down upon them.
Unethical is restricting an animal's movement by chaining it down or keeping it in a restricted area. An archery "legend" comes to mind for that in a "hunting" film.
Having a battery-powered camera on a tree to monitor what's walking through the woods isn't unethical. Go back to my previous post on page 5 for an example as to why. It seems as though you have glanced over it.
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
Well Bill...
You're then saying that it's not possible for a man to develop and have his own set of personal ethics...that he doesn't have ethics until they are part of a "social standard". (?) I call that a matter of semantics and your individual interpretation of ethics.
You're entitled to that of course. It doesn't mean that your interpretation of ethics is how the entire world views them. I completely reject the idea or position that someone cannot have ethics unless a "social standard" agrees with them.
"Code Of Conduct" refers to actionable behavior, and does not begin to describe the internal value system that makes each of us unique.
OK, I am just trying to support my opinion with actual examples. I know you understand that. I respect your tenacity for individual thoughts and ideals.
I still don't like trail cams being used during open season.
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
I'll throw this up for fun and discussion...
A camera that senses movement or heat and snaps a film picture...became a digital one that logged in data related to the date and time...became one with additional capabilities to sense and record climate variables...became one that integrates and communicates with your smart(?)phone via the cellular network. How much additional capabilities are awaiting development?
Forty miles from my home there is a company that manufactures trail cam systems. These systems use multiple cameras which relay their images and data to a main "server" camera. In essence, a web-work of cameras can be established around a given property, and real-time images are transmitted from the "server" camera. These images and related data are either transmitted to your phone or computer by radio signal (to a base station receiver) or by cellular network. Is there an app for that?
The upshot is that a hunter CAN be sitting on a deer stand while watching his smart(?)phone for instant data which tells him about deer movements at a different stand...or many of them. Do you like the idea of guys having as many wireless communication devices as they can afford out there in the woods? You may not be using them at this advanced level, but the technology is now in place and being used.
I consider all this to be more about the slippery slope. How do you argue against 2 guys using cell phones to communicate deer movements, while allowing an expensive electronic device to communicate the same (or maybe better) information to a hunter? Splitting hairs? Are you ready for solar-charged real-time video surveillance while we hunt? How much circuitry in the woods is too much? How traditional is its use?
Do you prefer the science of technology over the art of hunting?
And finally...ever think that there might come a day when you'll say, "Jeez...we should have controlled electronic technology before it became 'the new traditional'?
Fun to think about, isn't it?
Great point. I really enjoy the trailcam thread and dabble with a cranky old stealth cam myself, but when you look at hunting videos and commercials where the hunters have enough gizmos to make a special forces team salivate you have to question the direction hunting is taking...
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Originally posted by LeeBishop:
Originally posted by Bill Tell:
I am giving examples of where others have stated that the use of an electrical devise, encompassing trail cameras, are unethical in the field. I agree with them so I am participating in supporting their examples. [/b]
Well, that's the stance of luddism. It's anti-technological and advancement.
People may resist all they want, but technology prevails over all and life changes. And with the advent of electronic devices, digital and electronic items become standard to average life.
It may be your choice to not use cameras, and that's fine, but don't say it's unethical. [/b]
You are confirming this is labor saving technology by saying that I have a Luddism stance.
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It's definitely unethical for me to use trail cameras. Quote me. Anyone.
I have never painted this with a broad brush, or said that my ethical viewpoint is how another should believe. I give plenty of room for others to have their own ethics. I'm usually surprised at how challenged some folks are when a person's beliefs don't match their own.
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Originally posted by Bill Tell:
Originally posted by LeeBishop:
Originally posted by Bill Tell:
I am giving examples of where others have stated that the use of an electrical devise, encompassing trail cameras, are unethical in the field. I agree with them so I am participating in supporting their examples. [/b]
Well, that's the stance of luddism. It's anti-technological and advancement.
People may resist all they want, but technology prevails over all and life changes. And with the advent of electronic devices, digital and electronic items become standard to average life.
It may be your choice to not use cameras, and that's fine, but don't say it's unethical. [/b]
You are confirming this is labor saving technology by saying that I have a Luddism stance. [/b]
I expounded my point. Please browse it further.
But your bow is an example of technology that took labor out of hunting.
No longer do you have to throw a spear at wild game and hunt in a pack of your villagers.
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I imagine this debate was very similar with the "Old Schoolers" when the first recurves hit the market.
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
I imagine this debate was very similar with the "Old Schoolers" when the first recurves hit the market.
No it wasn't.
They didn't have Trad Gang! ;)
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Originally posted by LeeBishop:
Originally posted by Bill Tell:
Originally posted by LeeBishop:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Tell:
I am giving examples of where others have stated that the use of an electrical devise, encompassing trail cameras, are unethical in the field. I agree with them so I am participating in supporting their examples. [/b]
Well, that's the stance of luddism. It's anti-technological and advancement.
People may resist all they want, but technology prevails over all and life changes. And with the advent of electronic devices, digital and electronic items become standard to average life.
It may be your choice to not use cameras, and that's fine, but don't say it's unethical. [/b]
You are confirming this is labor saving technology by saying that I have a Luddism stance. [/b]
I expounded my point. Please browse it further.
But your bow is an example of technology that took labor out of hunting.
No longer do you have to throw a spear at wild game and hunt in a pack of your villagers.
So by this line of reasoning we should all be hunting with predator drones.
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These are pretty well accepted principles and not just by me :wavey:
Ethics is a personal code (could be a group code too if you choose) of behavior that you conduct yourself by whether you are alone or not-main thing is that it is personal and you may have arrived at norms for these socially.
Acceptable social behavior is what keeps people from farting in the theater-sometimes.
Laws are laws and are separate from ethics.
And game cameras or PCB's are not going to divide us they are just technology and techniques.
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In my opinion the "locating" an animal is stretching it a little. You have "located" the animal to a 50 square foot area at that moment.....and as my experience shows...you may or may not ever see that deer in that 50 sq foot area again. Crap shoot. Even with cellular or real time (which I don't know anyone personally that uses these) what good is it? It's past history by the time the pic is taken.
To find a mature buck on cam, initiate a game plan, hang a stand, plot and successfully stalk an entry route, sit 12-1/2 hrs on stand without coming down, make the shot (which will happen 1% of the time you set up like this)
I speak from years and thousands of scenarios that I have described above and can tell you....trail cams do not "locate" deer to a certain spot. I have pics of literally 100's if not thousands of bucks that I've personally never laid eyes on. Lord knows I've tried and I'd consider myself an "above average" hunter when it comes to mature whitetails.
To my knowlege P&Y hasn't made an official stance on this....anyone know for sure?
Mike
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http://www.buckeyecam.com/index.php/product-line/overview
Look closely. Think about the next step which is live video of 30 different settings.
The really hard part is using your brain to recognize the trend...and envision where this leads in ten years.
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
I imagine this debate was very similar with the "Old Schoolers" when the first recurves hit the market.
I don't know. In terms of is it trad or not maybe but recurves were never devices that had the potential to turn the uninformed against the sport. Personally, my whole issue with trail cams, as my understanding of ethics is broadened by this discussion, is what they seem to be to the uninformed. I don't like them for that reason. I realize this is my issue, but in the end, it will be one for all of us who hunt.
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I would love to have a good trail cam, but it's just not in my budget right now. I hear you get what you pay for when it comes to trail cams.
The main reason I want one is just to see if there might be a huge buck frequenting the farm in which I hunt on. If I were to see a big'un on a trail cam then it just might cause me to pass up on smaller bucks (which is what I plan on doing this year anyway, but it would be much easier to pass on smaller ones if I knew ol' mossy horns was in my area!).
Also, I think it would be much fun seeing just what kind of wildlife I could get pictures of. I would like to put one on a gut pile or a dead deer found in the bush and see what all kind of animals come to it.
I really can't see anything unethical about using a couple of them here and there. Sorry, but I also just can't see how they give a hunter any unfair advantage either.
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
http://www.buckeyecam.com/index.php/product-line/overview
Look closely. Think about the next step which is live video of 30 different settings.
The really hard part is using your brain to recognize the trend...and envision where this leads in ten years.
I know where it doesn't lead in Kentucky and most other states that I know of....
It doesn't lead to enternet control of a remote control gun....or using while in a stand....or killing the animal for you......as most states banned these uses years ago when the outfit in Tx tried selling this kind of electronic enternet shooting gallery 7 years ago or so. (note I don't use the word hunt)
I believe some states allow electronic calls, phones, radios, etc, but KY does not.
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Doug,
Carcass cams are Amazing! You never know what you're gonna get!
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Originally posted by LoweBow:
Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
http://www.buckeyecam.com/index.php/product-line/overview
Look closely. Think about the next step which is live video of 30 different settings.
The really hard part is using your brain to recognize the trend...and envision where this leads in ten years.
I know where it doesn't lead in Kentucky and most other states that I know of....
It doesn't lead to enternet control of a remote control gun....or using while in a stand....or killing the animal for you......as most states banned these uses years ago when the outfit in Tx tried selling this kind of electronic enternet shooting gallery 7 years ago or so. (note I don't use the word hunt)
I believe some states allow electronic calls, phones, radios, etc, but KY does not. [/b]
Your point is well taken. It also shows that there ARE people out there who have a much more liberal set of ethics than you or me. These are the people who would not hesitate to use every conceivable tech advantage they can access, just to get the dead animal they desire. Their ethics say "It's okay to use remote weapons and other devices to help me kill an animal. I don't like being told I can't do something that I enjoy. Show me how I'm harming the sport of hunting".
Thank god for those with the guts to say..."NO".
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Trail Cams are a hobby i theirself. I got pics on mine this fall of a large buck,one that i've yet to see, and probably never will unless he gets careless during the rut. Most big buck pics i've gotten are in the middle of the night, so its not going to help me get that buck any way. I run my cam all year, and have hundreds of pics, its just a fun hobby. What I cant stand is seeing the bait piles, and feeders in the photos, that takes the thrill out of it for me. JMO
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Kevin, you've said a couple of times that trail cameras are unethical for you to use. What would owning and using one cause you to do that violates your ethical code? What line would they cause you to cross?
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A couple cameras for me is just fun and doesn’t really change how I hunt. Running 20 cameras and having to maintain, move, change cards, replace batteries, and analyze the data sounds like more work than just going hunting. With all that I wouldn’t have time to hunt. It would really be a waste of time and money given I would still hang my stand on the best funnel between a bedding areas and food source. Then hunt when I can and kill the first grown deer that walks past and gives me a shot because I find it personally unethical to have an empty freezer because I am trying to fill the wall. Which brings me to the observation that some here are arguing about P&Y rules and in may cases the targeting of trophy animals. Interesting it is trophies that some are concerned about. I find trophy hunting personally unethical because I find it unethical to discriminate based on sex, age or genetics. :D
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Lowebow(Mike) your point is well taken, but it is when that same deer continually shows up in that same 50sq. ft patch at a certain time as some deer do, ecsp. on a feeding pattern. A guy checks his trail cam and sees buck X on the food plot 6 out of 7 days between 6 and 7pm. The guys own 600 acres and has 20 cameras on his plots and leading to them. Without the trail cam he may hunt 5 different plots in a two week period, but with them he decides to hunt the plot buck X is visiting regularly, is that fair to the animal. It may be for some but for me it is not. I just eliminated several hundred acres of hunting ground because my trailcam told me that was the place to be!! See my point, it no doubt helps in locating and killing deer and even a specific deer. I have watched to many shows and read to many articles and viewed too much on the internet for anyone to tell me that they cannot or are not used specifically to help them kill deer. I should say not everyone using them is using them that way, but there are a lot of folks who do. Ethical, I could really care less, as I said I cannot answer Rogers question because what I think is right may not be whats right for someone else. People are using these to pattern deer and to help them locate deer, as far as actually helping make the kill, well no as the hunter still has to make the shot. As far as harming the sport, I cannot say it is or isn't but than where do we draw the line? Shawn
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This thread is taking off in two sideways directions.
One is a debate over what ethics are, exactly.
Two is a debate over how much of an advantage trail cams are or could be.
The original question was "Trail Cameras - ethical or not?" In the U.S. it doesn't matter what your personal ethics are except to you and yours. If a thing is considered unethical by many, it could be outlawed. Spotlighting and shooting deer at night is against the law BECAUSE it's unethical. It's considered unethical by many people, including those who don't hunt.
We may not lose our hunting privileges in this country for a long time, but if we do it will come down to our ability to defend our right to hunt. It is easy to defend hunting as an art or a skill, and it is hard to defend hunting as killing animals primarily with the aid of 24-7 remote electronic surveillance, chemical scent elimination, baits and chemical attractants of all kinds, ultra high tech weaponry, and essentially so much science that the art of it is hard to see or gone, which is where all this is headed.
It doesn't matter what your personal ethics are - if enough people get together and say NO hunters shouldn't really be allowed to do all these things in this way they are now doing them, then your hunting privileges will be gone.
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Originally posted by looper:
Kevin, you've said a couple of times that trail cameras are unethical for you to use. What would owning and using one cause you to do that violates your ethical code? What line would they cause you to cross?
The line for me is using anything out in the field which directly aids me in eventually killing an animal, AND involves the use of a circuit board or other electronics which can gather and compute information about the animals in my area.
I don't use a gps, phone, radio or other electronic device to help me locate and kill an animal. I absolutely believe that it is 100% wrong for me to rely on electronics as a shortcut...however slight...to gain an advantage on any animal. I have spent enough long hard and tough hours in the woods to know that I COULD take a game camera and use it to help me kill a given deer. I live with deer. I see them every day. I know they are very patternable. I've patterned and killed them for decades using my legs, eyes and brain. For me, the camera would absolutely present an advantage...one I think is unfair and unwarranted in the spirit of traditional hunting values.
One of the main reasons their use is unethical for me? I know I am contributing to a segment of the industry which has a goal of making it easier to kill animals through the ever-expanding use of electronic technology out in the field. I will not be part of relying on electronics out there to help me...in even the slightest way...harvest game.
As I said once before: I don't like the road that takes us down...and I refuse to help build it.
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Originally posted by xtrema312:
I find trophy hunting personally unethical because I find it unethical to discriminate based on sex, age or genetics. :D
Which has no effect on anyone else, unless you also happen to be the owner of an NFL team and follow your code of ethics there as well.
Just about everyone on this thread is PC to the point of being relativist to avoid offending anyone by saying what they do is unethical, but it is nonetheless true that what some hunters do IS unethical and negatively affects us all.
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Originally posted by Kevin Dill:
Originally posted by Bill Tell:
unethical - not conforming to approved standards of social or professional behavior
Pope and Young
“Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:
"By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached."
By the very definition it is completely unethical if you use these during the hunting season!
Great illustrative post. A very recognized and prominent organization believes as stated.
The rub is simply the numbers of people (not TG-rs) who couldn't care less about ethics or having any limits based on them. The new ethic seems to often relate to "can I do this legally", instead of "should I support this behavior"? [/b]
Pope and Young answered the trail camera question several years ago when they stated that their use did not violate the club's rules of fair chase. So I guess the "they're unethical because P&Y says so" dog doesn't hunt.
Expounding on that thought -- that if it violates P&Y's rules of fair chase than it's unethical -- I know a guy who attaches a digital watch head to his bow with Velcro so he knows exactly when legal light begins and ends. Technically, it's an electronic device attached to a bow. Technically, it would violate P&Y's rules of fair chase. So can anyone please explain to me (with a straight face) how sticking a watch to your bow is unethical?
If I had to look at all my hunting gear and point to which item makes killing deer the easiest, it sure wouldn't be my GPS or trail camera. It would be my portable tree stand. ;)
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Point well comunicated and well taken Shawn!
Funny thing is I had a deer this season that visited the same bean field, in the same "general" area multiple times. I set a stand on a wide 10, but after 3 nights this buck showed and actually came to the fence crossing and within 12 yards of me. It wasn't the buck I was hunting, but I did know this deer to be in the area. I didn't take the 1/4 too shot on this 135" velvet buck as I felt the shot to be unethical.
I had/have no ethical problem myself in using trail cams, but have my own code that I follow on equipment, shooting of fawns, shot placement, etc.
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Many people have to work long hours and don't get as much time in the woods as some of us do. I say if it helps your hunting and doesn't become a crutch go for it. I have one my wife got me. I may use it this year due to time constraints.
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Kevin, I understand where you're coming from. I do find it interesting to see what other folk's limits are for themselves.
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Good points from both sides. I can see how it would improve a hunters chances on a specific deer, can't argue that. All mine has done is confirm there is a bruiser in the area, i'll have to do my homework to pinpoint where, and when he will show, as I think my cams location has scared him off as I have gotten no more pics of him. Its an infrared cam, but it still lights up, and the couple of pics I had he was allways looking at the camera, so technology has probably ruined my chances ! LOL. Oh well, I'm still proud of a couple of coyote pics, and some turkeys (rare sightings on my property )Guys have fun!
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Some additional thoughts, as I enjoy the perspectives of others' minds.
What I've noticed over time is a progressive invasion of technology...even into what some people adamantly call "traditional bowhunting". Tech is certainly the everyday norm for modern compound bows, firearms, etc. I figured something out for myself about 20 years ago, and I never forgot it...
Every time I employ a new device to help me find success afield, I give up a little of the skills I gained the hard way. The whole point of devices is to enable a given task. Tell me about the last time you shopped for and bought a device with the deliberate intent to make your hunting success less likely. Keep in mind I'm not anti-device, but electronics have no place in my hunting success. Devices and electronics are popularized by people touting them as the answer to my problems. "Get a (game camera, mechanical release, laser anything, remote-control feeder, draw lock, crossbow, or other item) and get in the game!" Picture a huge animal in some pose. The association is clear. "Buy this...be like us." Buying into this mentality (and therefore advocating for progressive technology) inevitably takes me farther down the road and away from what some proudly refer to as "traditional bowhunting." I have just a bit of difficulty accepting a very futuristic electronics-laden person...who happens to be carrying a recurve...referring to the joys of hunting the traditional way.
Ever silently (or vocally) speak out against the wheelbow loaded with every possible advancement? Fine with bow-mounted laser range-computing digital readouts? In truth, we may appear to be hypocrites. Hard to tell a guy he can't or shouldn't use one of those, while I log onto my iPad and begin surveying a network of cameras placed strategically throughout my woods.
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Electronics are here to stay. You can choose not to partake and that is your choice. The more the economy flourishes from the hunting industry the safer it is. If our economy didn't benefit from hunters financially it would be much easier for the anti's to crush us and our sport. The folks in government would have a very easy call to make at the urging of the anti's to ban hunting if not for the money coming in.
Do you really believe my state wildlife department has worked so diligently and effectively to bring back deer, turkey and elk just so they didn't go extinct or simply for our pleasure? Please, time to wake up...its for the money.
Money drives our sport like it or not and the more we spend the safer our sport becomes.
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I have one this fall for the first time. I don't see how it will help me tag any of the bucks I have gotten pictures of. I have had a blast checking the camera every couple of weeks though. Just seems to broaden the whole game for me, I consider pics like this a bit of a trophy in itself. One that will last as long as a head on the wall even though the significance is less...
(http://i1233.photobucket.com/albums/ff388/tmoren/Buck1-2011crop.jpg)
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Nice Buck!
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
...Do you really believe my state wildlife department has worked so diligently and effectively to bring back deer, turkey and elk just so they didn't go extinct or simply for our pleasure? Please, time to wake up...its for the money...
I for one believe mostly they do manage for our pleasure and to keep the populations viable for that end.
Going all the way back to the sportsmen and Teddy Roosevelt saving a chunk of land or lands to help save the game animals they loved from disappearing from the planet. And there is plenty of others who early on went against the "money" interests to save habitat and grow numbers of game.
However, the fact that our animal resources do bring in money to support in part the agencies that manage them is a good thing.
Also, I think a lot of people that work for those agencies do so out of commitment to better our wildlands and the animals found there, not to make it pay. Wholesale condemnation of all that work in that field is at least inaccurate.
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Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
If I had to look at all my hunting gear and point to which item makes killing deer the easiest, it sure wouldn't be my GPS or trail camera. It would be my portable tree stand. ;)
That's exactly right.
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jhg,
One of my good friends is a KY state biologist and there is no doubt he loves wildlife and all it encompasses. So I agree the folks that do the work for our dnr's do it for the love and their interest in the wildlife and conservation.
But please visit this link
http://www.nps.gov/thro/planyourvisit/feesandreservations.htm
Part of Teddy Roosevelts business plan and what he used to sell the deal in the first place to achieve his conservation efforts was it would also produce income.
If you want to secure our hunting rights go buy a trail camera. If that isn't how you roll, send a big check to your wildlife dept and tell them this is from a hunter. That is the the way we will protect our passion.
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WOW,
This thread will Rival the Howard hill Bow thread.
who cares wether Trail Cam's are ethical.
Trail cameras are not ruining our national heritage. Hunters who want to hate each other based on what they view as "Ethical" and divide are. Pointing fingers doesnt fix anything, look at our government:rolleyes: .
I get it, Trail Cameras may create an unfair advantage, but so do guns and Bows :readit:
I think there has been very good discussion on this thread which is great to see, instead of the constant fighting amongst firm beleifs. I applaud those who have kept an open mind and stated their beliefs without forcing them onto others.
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Originally posted by Landshark160:
Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
If I had to look at all my hunting gear and point to which item makes killing deer the easiest, it sure wouldn't be my GPS or trail camera. It would be my portable tree stand. ;)
That's exactly right. [/b]
I absolutely agree 100%. This conversation on the ethics of game cameras seems to get continually confused with things that make our success easier. It's not as simple as that for some. Someone once argued that a set of wheels wouldn't really make it any easier to kill animals, therefore no ethical consideration applied. Cut to 40 years later...think wheels changed the direction and future of bowhunting? Of course they did, as did treestands. Are we entering the age of the electronic bowhunter? Will future bowhunters rely as much on their software as they do true woodsmanship?
"Electronics are here to stay."
Most likely true. I think the lesson is well taught in The Odyssey.
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The technical advances are infringing heavily on ethical hunting. As many become more acclimated to the advances, they may be willing and often times accept them, even possibly as their own standard, and welcome more advantages and the cycle then repeats itself.. The ethical standard continually degrades and it is amazing how rationalization, money and greed always seem to be significant drivers.
Hunting ethics are steadily and gradually subsiding at a pace that seems unnoticeable especially to the younger generations and even more so to those who are currently growing up where the decline is viewed as the norm. Where is the line? It is definitely not where it was established in the past. I have ascertained and stand firm that it is moving and in one direction.
When has the ethical standard been raised unless we have taken it upon ourselves personally?
Humans establish and rationalize its decline. At what point will hunting fair chase be actually and fervently challenged? Will it occur after technology advances make it impossible for any animal to escape from even the most novice hunter? Too bad the quarries we pursue have no say.
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Originally posted by KentuckyTJ:
...Part of Teddy Roosevelts business plan and what he used to sell the deal in the first place to achieve his conservation efforts was it would also produce income....
Thanks TJ. I appreciate the link and follow up.
I don't have a problem with game generating income for those who choose to make their livelihood around that. I took your statements as a wholesale condemnation. Sorry about that.
I think I fall into the camp that Kevin is building. Although we cannot resist the march of progress in regards to electronic devices such as game cams etc, we can influence how they are used and whether or not they are used. I feel that is a valid way forward.
Joshua
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I disagree. For what it is worth I have I believe reached my ceiling as far as trail cameras go with how I use them or any other technology concerning the way I hunt. I can see and agree with that any further use of them or any other gismo that is coming would be (for me) unethical to the game we chase. But as long as whatever is to come technology wise is producing income I know my choice to hunt the way I choose is protected. I strongly believe it would be foolish for me or you to fight technology and the insurance for us it brings.
We as traditional hunters are a very small part of a much larger community. The other part of OUR community that choose to hunt in different manners are the ones we need to thank and support for keeping our hunting safe because of the income they generate. Without them and their gismo's we are done.
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sorry boys and girls but if we reach the conclusion that trail cams really dont help all that much , Not nearly as much as portable tree stands , then we must also conclude that 80% let off bows , lazer range finders , drop away rests , flip open broadheads and etc,etc. really dont help all that much either .
If that is all true then we ALL have a lot of nerve trying to separate ourselves from the hoardes of hi tech video hunt followers , with the self proclaimed title of Traditional Bowhunters or the Trad Gang .
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I just keep agreeing with TJ's post one after the other. All very well said.
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Originally posted by jhg:
Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Divided we fall only applies if we refuse to stand up for each other. It has nothing to do with whether we tolerate the use of trail cameras or not.
I disagree.
In this case trail cameras are part of a larger bellweather(sp?) of equipment that are forcing us, and everyone else who has an opinion on hunting, (as well as those who do not yet) to look anew at the merits of the sport.
All I am advocating is we broaden our view when considering the ethical use of such devices to include the larger image of hunting. Again, I think they are linked. Thats all.
I will stand up for my brothers & sisters who hunt. But I do not want to see what we love eroded because in the end we could not agree on what is threatening it.
Joshua [/b]
As logn as you stand up for others when the call comes, then there is no "divided". We have to accept that the fact that others don't agree with us does not make them the enemy.
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I fail to see how hunting equipment, which helps hunters be more accurate, is seen as a bad thing. I know that there is the whole thing about pushing range of shots and all, but most bow hunters I have ever know don’t try to shoot long distances. They just want to shoot more accurate. I would rather see a hunter with a compound, sites, rest, mechanical heads, range finder and all that make a good shot than a trad bow hunter missing and wounding because they insist on being trad, but can’t make the shot.
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Here's a thought for the community...
If trail cameras are so effective, and they are selling like hotcakes...
why aren't deer kill rates going up?
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Originally posted by Friend:
Hunting ethics are steadily and gradually subsiding at a pace that seems unnoticeable especially to the younger generations and even more so to those who are currently growing up where the decline is viewed as the norm. Where is the line? It is definitely not where it was established in the past. I have ascertained and stand firm that it is moving and in one direction.
I have a problem with this statement given what has happened in the not too distant past in hunting, which about wiped out many game animals in this country. The Indians ran buffalo over cliffs. Then there is what was done by many well know heroes of trad archers. I wouldn’t use many of the tactics they did or take the shots they did. As far as I can tell hunting ethics have improved for the most part over the last couple hundred years. Other than caned hunts and some other obvious things like that, I don’t see the big slide in ethics.
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Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Here's a thought for the community...
If trail cameras are so effective, and they are selling like hotcakes...
why aren't deer kill rates going up?
Great point. I just heard that we have even larger population of deer in some areas of our state and the DNR is trying to figure out ways to cut the numbers. That is after the cross bow was legalized, which I didn’t like. Compounds with all the bells and whistles, tree stands, cross bows, trail cameras, scent lock………………. and bow hunters still kill a drop in the bucket compared to gun hunters every year. And they consist of mostly two or three day a year hunters with not much more tech that a gun, which is not an unethical way to kill a criter.
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:campfire:
Very interesting read thanks!
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Originally posted by Jeff Strubberg:
Here's a thought for the community...
If trail cameras are so effective, and they are selling like hotcakes...
why aren't deer kill rates going up?
Dang Jeff, don't you know that injecting a sensible statement like that is a thread killer?
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Originally posted by Rick Perry:
sorry boys and girls but if we reach the conclusion that trail cams really dont help all that much , Not nearly as much as portable tree stands , then we must also conclude that 80% let off bows , lazer range finders , drop away rests , flip open broadheads and etc,etc. really dont help all that much either .
If that is all true then we ALL have a lot of nerve trying to separate ourselves from the hoardes of hi tech video hunt followers , with the self proclaimed title of Traditional Bowhunters or the Trad Gang .
That, of course, assumes that everyone who hunts with a recurve or longbow does so to be a separatist, out of some sense of superiority. That may be the case for some, but please don't include me in that clique. I hunt how and with what I hunt for one main reason: I enjoy it. My hunting partners do the same. Some of them use longbows; others use decked out compounds, slug guns, and rifles.
As much as I respect everyone's opinions here (the civility and respect on this site never ceases to amaze me), I do find it ironic that people who are quick to decry another bowhunter's legal shortcut are equally quick to defend and rationalize their own. How a guy can sit in a portable treestand or popup blind and say someone's trail camera is unethical because it makes killing deer easier is a contradiction I don't understand.
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Jason posted:
"As much as I respect everyone's opinions here (the civility and respect on this site never ceases to amaze me), I do find it ironic that people who are quick to decry another bowhunter's legal shortcut are equally quick to defend and rationalize their own. How a guy can sit in a portable treestand or popup blind and say someone's trail camera is unethical because it makes killing deer easier is a contradiction I don't understand."
Some would say it is because tree stands and blinds don't have a PCB! :bigsmyl:
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I think it is no different than other items we buy, it's a tool and a very nice hobby also.
Having said that, it's no substitute to finding a hot oak tree. JMO.
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Bjorn,
Some folks do oppose them simply under the umbrella of electronics in bowhunting -- incrementalism even. I can certainly respect that opinion, and even share it to some degree. But when we start pointing out the gadgets and shortcuts others use to increase the ease with which they fill tags, I feel we should start by first examining ourselves.
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Really????????? I'm going hunting.
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"Topic: Trail Cameras....ethical or not?"
According to ?? If they are legal then it's your choice, your morality, your own ethics. It's not for me to make your choice (nor would I want to), it's for each one of us to decide for ourselves. Isn't it wonderful we live in a country that allows us the opportunity to not only ask the question but also to actually make our own choice. Ethical or not, I know my answer and that's all that matters.
Butch L
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Originally posted by Jason R. Wesbrock:
Bjorn,
Some folks do oppose them simply under the umbrella of electronics in bowhunting -- incrementalism even. I can certainly respect that opinion, and even share it to some degree. But when we start pointing out the gadgets and shortcuts others use to increase the ease with which they fill tags, I feel we should start by first examining ourselves.
I like this statement.
There will of course always be the "one more step" people who are just never going to tolerate anybody wanting to place a limit. The guys who created the remote control "hunt by internet" thing...you don't suppose they were upset by the outcry (from us) over THEIR ethics, do you? They say "all politics are personal"...and the same is true of ethics. Nobody wants to be told they can't do or use something because it's ethically wrong...even the "hunt by internet" guys felt this way. Still, someone else's ethics prevailed and were turned into legislation. I think we all agree it was for the best in that case.
If it's YOUR ethics that are under question or indictment, that's personal and sure to arouse ire. Nevertheless, at some point we are all bound to find ourselves at odds with the majority and their collective ethic. We don't agree with them, and that's just how it is. In my case it's more related to conservativism. I don't like seeing a form of remote electronic surveillance and communication used to assist us in hunting game...whether proven effective or not. Some do. We differ. That's all.
Speaking of incrementalism, I have to wonder about this likely scenario:
I know from experience that "my" buck sometimes passes point A on his way to point B. I've seen it enough to know it's a worthwhile odd to bet. So I set a real-time surveillance unit at point A, and a stand at point B. I'm hunting 200 yards away, when my iPhone sends me a picture: the big guy is at point A. I bail and run to my B stand and kill the buck...bow, gun, any legal weapon. I'm not even interested in opinions really, but this technology is in use today. It's going to be refined and improved as time passes. I can see the man sitting in his chair and hunting by remote surveillance...waiting for his chance.
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I absolutely love checking my trail cameras. I can tell you that they have made me far more selective for the simple reason that we have been able to see the quality of deer that actually inhabit our acreage. As a result, I am that much less likely to take a pot shot and the younger guys with serious potential. I don't care a whole lot about "trophy" deer in terms of inches of antler, but I love shooting old bucks.
By the way, we only have two cameras.
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The greatest shortcut I have found is the people I have met and learned from, that far and away exceeds the sum total of everything else combined, electronic and otherwise.
Many of these have been directly or indirectly as a result of this site and I guess that is what makes it difficult for me to separate the PCB in my computer from the one in my game camera. I meant no one any disrespect and if it was taken that way I apologize.
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I have three daughters, and I take them into the woods as much as possible. They collect shed antlers, old turtle shells, nuts, feathers, and any other "treasure" they happen upon. I am doing my best to teach them how to read deer sign and become competent woodsmen. I own a single deer camera, and the girls love to take it out, pick a likely spot, wave goodbye, and return several weeks later to pick it up. When we get home, they sit on my lap and we sift through the movies looking at deer, fox, turkeys, and racoons. It is a way of both increasing their interest in the outdoors and providing one more incentive to get in Dad's truck and wander around the woods. Scouting cameras are amazing pieces of technology, and can be used in both ethical and educational ways. I fell in love with trad archery because of some very personal and profound pleasure I get from it. I don't see that my use of modern technology makes me less of a trad guy. If anything I spend more time in the woods and more time with my daughters because of them.
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Kevin, your experience should also tell you that "your" buck isn't going to hang around while you "bail and run" to where he is. Come on. We can all create a situation where anything and everything is illegal or immoral or unethical. The plain fact is that you don't have to use a tool, like a trail camera, in an unethical manner. Sure you can, but you don't have to.
I own one. I've enjoyed using it. Many others have gotten enjoyment from the pictures it produces. Does it compromise the "code" I've set for myself. Not in the least, because of the way I choose to use it. Has it made me a more efficient hunter. Not in the least, because of the way I choose to use it. Has it helped me kill a deer? Not in the least, because of the way I choose to use it.
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I finally broke down and bought the cheapest one I could find..bout $30 new..to put on public land I hunt. Problem is it's so hard for me to get way back in where I hunt, I hardly ever check the thing. May not still have it.
When it comes down to having so many like on the tv shows where they know every deer on their properties and have a portfolio on them all I think it's a little much. They seem more surprised when they kill a buck they "don't know" than anything else they do.
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Looper, very good statement!! I still do not see how anyone can equate a treestand,bow,gun,scent killers and such to a trail camera. The native americans were using all that stuff but guns long before any Europeans or anyone else set foot on american soil, not in the same form but some form or another. To say a device that can tell you exactly when and where a deer is showing up in an area cannot be equated to any of the aforementioned things. Again I use all those things and I do own a couple trailcams and as they are being used by most people I do not have a problem with them. It is when people go overboard with there use and pretty much can tell you when a particular deer is gonna show up in a particular location and use that combined info of repetition to kill that animal. True it can be done a lot of times from afar with a spotting scope and a lot of time spent in the field but the trail cams are taking that human element of having to be out there scouting. I say use them if you like and as you like, I just like to use them in my own way. Shawn
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The trail cameras put the time in for you every second of the day and night. They allow you to map and pattern deer. They allow you to pick which trails or areas hold the biggest bucks.
I don't think of them as unethical but I would not use them. It takes the hunt out of the hunt for me. I know 2 guys who use these things religiously now. Trail camera arguments are going to go into the crossbow arena of debate shortly.
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So do we have a majority concensus that "if it doesn't kill hunting as a sport, we're all in for as much electronics as the man will allow"?
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I like looking at the pictures but really don't see how using them to harvest game is ethical. Anything I can check from home or work is not hunting or woodcraft as far as I am concerned.
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If a trail camera is considered unethical, than what is using a tree stand considered?