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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Caleb the bow breaker on November 09, 2011, 10:38:00 AM
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Hey guys,
I guess everybody has been reading the stories about falling out of stands and it has me thinking about it. I generally have a tie in on my tree and wear a harness. However, i am not attached when climbing. I know how to make the prussic but cant find a good source of rope. Where are you guys getting your rope at??? I have looked online and it seems like there is all sorts of stuff available but I dont know what it all is and some of that stuff is pretty pricey when you start talking about making 6-8 set ups.
Any input would be appreciated
Caleb
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REI has a good selection of climbing rope.
Bisch
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Home Depot, Lowes, REI
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What type of rope does a fella need to get?
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My 2 cents. A lot of people including myself do not want to necessarily trust their life on a prussic knot that they tied. As an alternative, I use an ascender. You can get them at rock climbing sources or from general construction safety equipement vendors. Mine will work perfectly on a 3/8-1/2" rope. When I go up into a tree I am protected even before my feet leave the ground.
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Just googled "ascenders". They can get pretty salty! BobCo 1965, is there one you recommend? Two that weren't too bad (expensive) were the Petzl Tibloc Ultralight and the Wild Country Ropeman both for around $30.00.
Also wondering about the specifics about the prussic knot. What happens?
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I've been useing prussic knot rope (5mm) and mainline 7-8mm rope from EMS, REI.etc. but have found some 3/8" boat braided nylon docking line with a spliced eye from wally world that seems to work ok as a mainline, but only 15' long. Usually I am snapped in one step above ground and feel pretty secure.
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b.glass- A prussic knot is used for ascending and emergency use in rockclimbing. Basically you tie a small rope on with the knot as a sort of "barrel" that goes aroung the rope you have attatched up at the point your trying to get to. When you put weight on the small rope friction against the other rope locks it in rock solid. When you take your weight off it you can loosen it and move it up the rope. Google image prussic loop and you will what i mean. Hope this helps. :)
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So, I've stopped hunting until I can begin hunting using a little more commonsense. I've always climbed unattached then strapped in with an older chest type harness, lately I've felt a little uneasy about this arrangement. Can anyone recommend what I need to do to hunt safer?
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I get mine at local sporting goods stores that have camping and climbing goods. The 7mm works great for my tracking dog's lead too. Stiff enough that it doesn't wrap around brush. Much better line than the limp poly braid that I've found in boat and hardware stores. Also doesn't fray as easily.
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Be carefull what you buy for "safety" rope. As with everything else, I have to get the heavy duty stuff. If you check most ropes you buy at Lowes or Home Depot, you'll find their ratings unsatisfactory. ie; a 1/2" braided nylon rope may only test out at 125#.
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HSS sells the pre-done rope with Prusic knott in a 30 foot length for 39.95 at the local Gander Mountain. My buddy made a couple from line he got at a climbing store and he said he had $20-25 into each one. For the difference, I'm satisfied with HSS (Hunter Safety Systems).
It's the only way to go in my opinion.
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West Marine has a lot of very strong ropes that would do the job at a reasonable price.
Not trusting a Prussic knot that is tied correctly is fine. They've been used for a very long time with success.
Mike
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Climbing ropes are the ticket. I got a few hundred feet from an auction a while back for almost nothing. They are frequently discarded by climbers after a stress or when a section is damaged. Since we only need 20 feet or so, it's realatively easy to find a good section. In the end, you own your own safety so do some research. There are some decent ropes at hardware stores but the cost isn't much better than good climbing rope.
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Some of the Treestand Manfactures, Summit, Hunter Safety Systems, offer a 3 pack of the rropes with purssik knots. They'll run around $100. for the 3 pack. Check 'em out.
The trouble with going to a "Box Store", is that they don't usually carry a rated climbing type rope.
Fire Dept. Safety equipt. sales, Rock Climbing stores, Mine Safety Suppliers, etc. will have thwe rope that is needed. It will cost more than the "box stores", but you'll get the real thing.
Be safe out there.
JAG/Johnny
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This is one of those subjects that comes up at camp almost every year. I can never figure out why some folks will shell out close to or over 300 dollars for a treestand and then shop around for some bargin basement fall protection? Remember Christopher Reeves who played "superman" he only fell off a horse and broke his neck ( thats a lot lower to the ground then your average stand) That guy was in a lot better shape then most guys I hunt with as well. Hunter safety system and Summit seat of the pants systems are rated fall protection made for bowhunters. Either system will run 100 to 150 bucks but, what is your life worth? It only takes one time, game over. Just my two cents.
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Originally posted by b.glass:
Just googled "ascenders". They can get pretty salty! BobCo 1965, is there one you recommend? Two that weren't too bad (expensive) were the Petzl Tibloc Ultralight and the Wild Country Ropeman both for around $30.00.
Also wondering about the specifics about the prussic knot. What happens?
I use a Petzl. I think I paid about $40 for it about 10 years ago. It is still going strong. On the other hand, my friend got some $20 ascenders from a construction safety vendor which works just as good. It is just not ergonomically the same as the petzl.
And let’s just say I am not that proficient at trying knots. I am also not that keen on trusting someone I don't know to tie one for me. :-)
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I buy my safety ropes from REI. The main ropes are rated at around 2,000# which is safe in a dynamic fall situation. I forget what the smaller diameter rope I use for the prussic knot is rated for. I have long ones for permanantly attaching up top for a ladder stand and a small one I use to attach to a tree and slide up and down with a climber. I use them in conjunction with good climbing carabiners from REI too.
For installing climbing sticks I use a linemans belt with the shorter rope on the tether.
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Long while back I googled the whole Prussic thing and got a climbing site.
They were pretty intense about what type rope for the main line...something about the finish of the safety main rope had to be a specific way to hold the prussic.
I got the feeling if it was too slick, it would not "jam" well and if it was too knobby, it wouldn't slide up /down easily.
I put stands up and take them down each time in and out of the woods...as I get older, that gets more and more challenging and tiring...
I hunt one buddy's that has them...
The prussic? It was also clearly diagramed and if I remember correctly, they suggested particular adhesive to seal the knot you tie the clip into from your harness.
Sorry I can't be more specific. I might have that information tied to favorites at home, but won't be there till next week.
It was a mountaineering site I believe...dead serious stuff!
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Running buck, I don't think anyone is planning to buy rope at walmart or anything......as for myself I am just trying to understand what I need for a good safe climbing system. However it makes sense to include whatever may be needed for the people that might need to be on a budget but still want to be safe. Lots of people out of work, lots of people that may not be able to spend $200 this time of year.
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Guys I saw a bunch of the stuff on the web about prussics and climbing rope and it all seems relatively straightforward. Then I go to buy a rope and I am thinking Crap!!! 200 bucks for a rope. And before anybody says it, Yes, my safety is worth 200 dollars. But, it seems to me like there is an adequate alternative available that will keep us safe but that will be cheap, easy, and available enough for everybody to use.
Obviously I am not one of those guys that spend 300 on a treestand which is probably all the more reason that I should be tied in from the minute I leave the ground.
C
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Used or new remnant hanks of climbing rope from the auction site are where I got mine. I bought approx 300ft of new remnant hanks for less than a hundred bucks. That is a lot less than a deductible or worse.
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Also, does it need to be poly, nylon, soid braided, double braided, twisted???? Does it matter as long as the breaking strength is there.
C
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Climbing rope of kernmantle construction is the standard I believe. I have ten safety line/prussic set-ups up and running of top quality climbing rope tied off for less than $150. Cheap insurance.
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I remember a thread from a few years ago that had this all detailed. Lots of information to muddy the waters some more.
I still have not made my saftey system the way I want it,but have looked into some options.
A good Full body harness is a must.
A "lifeline" is about the same. A Must.
Climbing belt is a great idea for setting your stands.
If you cannot pony up for it all at once,spread it out over a few pay days. The main thing is to DO IT!!
TJ's story about his buddy really socked me in the gut. I need to get my set-up ASAP.
I have been looking at the following.
Muddy Outdoors has a full line of gear. www.gomuddy.com/ (http://www.gomuddy.com/)
S4Gear also has some nice stuff. www.s4gear.com (http://www.s4gear.com)
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The 2,000# climbing rope at REI is about $1/ft by the way, not 100's of dollars. The important thing is the prussic line should be thinner in diameter than the main line.
Here is a tie off rope arrangement I picked off the web and use myself. Used to attach my tether to a tree when either up the tree or ascending or descending with a climber.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/reddogge/Archery/climbingharnessstrap.jpg)
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I understand the prussic knot and was looking into putting together some "life lines". And yes, I was trying for something a little less expensive. Plus I like doing/making as much of my gear as possible.
What I was wondering was, are there, like, examples of why a prussic knot would be untrustworthy?
Doc brought something up about an adhesive that should be used. I need to do some more research. If I can't make it myself safely then I won't do it.
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b.glass- If I were you I would find someone knowledgable in mountaineering and ask them these questions. Those guys know more about knots than any of us ever will. I can't give you a straight answer as I have been away from that stuff for too long.
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http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=094825#000014
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=098100;p=1
Lots to read and re-read. Just search it out
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WARNING I have been in the tree climbing busniess for 20 plus years.
DO NOT BUY OR USE A USED CLIMBING ROPE OF ANY KIND FOR A FALL SUPPORT SYSTEM
doug77
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I just picked up the Hunter saftey system ultra light and love it. I also picked up the short prusic system (forgot who makes it, but I think its summit that sells the short prussic line) but by the time you buy the rope and build it yourself (with caribeners) you might as well buy it. Look at any of the catalogs you'll see it with the harness's.
If you're in one stand location (ie not moving it) ...there is a prussic system you can hang in that stand when you first set up, clip it from the ground and up you go time and time again after its hung. . The short harness (or the belt that comes with the HSS systems) will only be needed for the first climb.
Never been more comfortable hanging a treestand or climbing. I've always free climbed up till now, also using the cheap harness systems in the tree. They were mostly uncomfortable and a pain to put on and shoot with compared to the HSS ultra light. I didnt care for the vest model of HSS. Had the pro and swapped it for the ultra.
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I'm with Doug77. Look in the yellow pages and call a licensed arborist where you live. One day working with a two legged squirrel is worth the sweat and bee stings. I've also had to carry folks out either stiff or screaming jelly and investigate what went wrong when not using and/or improperly using wrong safety equipment.
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I know we are not supposed to post links here so look up Safetree Hunt Systems. Best deal on lifelines made correctly. The more you buy the cheaper they get. I bought 3 the other day for my lock-ons.
One bad fall in a lifetime is enough for anyone, I have already had mine and don't want another.
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Go to your local outdoorshop that carries climbing gear. If they have a good selection they will almost always have a large spool of Bluewater II static climbing rope that you can buy by the foot. They will also usually have an assortment of webbing and smaller diameter ropes you can buy by the foot as well.
There are different types of climbing rope that generally fall into two different categories--static and dynamic ropes. The expensive ropes are usually the dynamic ropes and they are not what we need for our purposes. A dynamic rope is designed to stretch (20% or more!) under a load and therefore prevent injury to a climber who suffers a fall of 10-30 feet or more by softening the impact of the rope when it stops the fall. A static rope like Bluewater II will not stretch under a load (or not appreciably--all ropes stretch under loads).
A static rope is fine for our purposes because if we do what we should in terms of adjusting our harness length and move the system up the tree with us as we climb into a stand we should never fall more than 2-3 feet anyhow. Also, a dynamic line will stretch with your weight in it making self-recovery into the stand harder if not impossible.
Bluewater II is the industry standard static climbing and rappel rope. The 11mm (7/16") diameter Bluewater II has a strength of 10,000 pounds. (yes I typed that correctly). As I said, most any climbing shop will have it on a big spool and will sell it cut to length by the foot. I have personally used this rope to rappel off 400 foot cliffs (and shorter) and have trusted my life completely to this rope. I would never buy a rope from Home Depot/Lowes etc and trust my life to it. Bluewater II is cheap enough and easy enough to find that there's no reason not to use it.
An alternative that you can often find is the braided green Army rappel ropes you can buy in surplus stores etc. Its usually sold in 120 foot lengths and I think I paid $48 bucks for the length I bought a few years ago. Here's a link and its like $78 for 120 feet.
http://www.uscav.com/Productinfo.aspx?productid=9492&tabid=548
Keep in mind this is a dynamic rope and its going to stretch when weight is applied so I don't think its as good as a static rope for treestand safety. But it will work and I have personally rappeled out of helicopters and off cliffs using this stuff. Buy it from a reputable surplus dealer and it will be fine as well.
I highly recommend you go down to the local climbing shop and talk to them. If you want equipment you can trust implicitly there is no substitute and frankly its not that expensive.
Here's a place that sells Bluewater II rope online for .84/ft cut to length.
http://www.backcountrygear.com/climbing/ropes-cordage/bluewater-ii-plus.html
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Thanks Eric. I looked it up and that is a pretty good. I think I can get a few other hunters to go together and get the best deal. They also have bulk rope that you can order but it doesn't make it any less expensive. They would make good early Christmas gifts!
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Thats some good information.
Thanks
CTT
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I agree with Chuck, Good stuff and was able to get the appropriate materials purchased and will save a fair bit of money over buying a pre-fab kit. I would definetly recommend that folks give this some thought no matter what method works best for them
C
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Go to Sherrill Tree and get tree climbing rope. It is made to take the abrasion of tree bark, etc. Good stuff. Professional Arborists trust their lives to it every day.
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One of my concerns every time I get into my lock-on is whether or not some critter has been gnawing at the strap. For this reason, I carry a strap up the tree with me and put it on before climbing onto the stand.
Seems to me we run the same risk with safety lines that are left in trees. Am I being too cautious, or is this a legitimate concern?
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Hunter safety systems - lifeline
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I use tree climbing rope that I bought from WesSpur Tree Equipment. I've used 2 different mainline types. The Bandit was a green camo looking rope, which is a 7/16" double braid climbing rope, with a 5600# breaking strength. I also tried there largest accesory cord which is 9mm and has a 4300# breaking strength and is black in color. I use 30' lengths on each treestand set-up and when you buy 120-180' at a time, it can be relatively cheap. Team up with some other guys and you can buy a lot. Wes Spur also sells any other tree climbing gear you can imagine as I imagine most any other tree climbing place will.
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I'm hoping I get my next one for X-mas. I put it on my list for the kids to get. $19 a Calelas
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If your using static kermantle rope you would have to make sure you limit the fall potential to next to nothing. Keep in mind even a fall of 2 feet would exert roughly 2500 pounds of force to the system and your body. Dynamic kermantle rope roughly cuts that down by 50% because of its ability to stretch. We use static kermantle rope in high angle rescue situations because a shock load is never exerted on the rope.
I would never use any substance on a rope to lock in a knot, you don't know what effect it has on the rope and never use used rope. Your trusting your life to a rope you have no history about.
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I second most of the suggestions on climbing gear. Just like getting started in traditional archery, talk to someone at a local shop like REI that sells climbing gear. Explain your exact need and they can be very helpful. Ascenders like the Petzel, Black Diamond, Jumar, etc... can be expensive, but having done single rope ascending in caves and up overhangs, they are worth every penny.
NEVER buy used climbing gear. You do not *know* the history of the item. Carabiners can develop microscopic cracks if mishandled, a dynamic rope is considered done after a climb with a fall. Pretty much every climbing magazine, website, and climber I know agree on this 100%
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Thanks for the source, Eric. I ordered four of the Safetree Hunt Systems rigs plus the long prussic rope and they should be here tomorrow or Friday. My wife is gonna be more comfortable now; me too.
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Originally posted by DustinNWA:
I second most of the suggestions on climbing gear. Just like getting started in traditional archery, talk to someone at a local shop like REI that sells climbing gear. Explain your exact need and they can be very helpful. Ascenders like the Petzel, Black Diamond, Jumar, etc... can be expensive, but having done single rope ascending in caves and up overhangs, they are worth every penny.
NEVER buy used climbing gear. You do not *know* the history of the item. Carabiners can develop microscopic cracks if mishandled, a dynamic rope is considered done after a climb with a fall. Pretty much every climbing magazine, website, and climber I know agree on this 100%
Most dynamic ropes are rated for a number of falls of a specific type. I've never seen a climbing rope maker that would sell or even advertise a rope only rated for one fall....What would you do if you were in the middle of a multi-pitch climb and suffered a fall? Call for rescue? Of course not. Assuming nobody got hurt you keep climbing. Even the cheaper ropes are rated for 5 or 6 falls.
Of course, not all falls are equal. For example if you top rope a climber and he comes off the face and the rope is relatively taut its not really considered a fall. But someone who falls 10-15 feet in a bottom belay situation would obviously be considered a fall. But nobody I've ever climbed with would trash a decent dynamic rope after only one or two falls unless they were REALLY extreme--like 70 or 80 feet!
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I cannot suggest Safe Tree Systems strongly enough.
I was on the same cheap "buy your own rope" quest 6 or 8 years ago. Found STS was within a couple bucks of the raw materials.
I have five. One for every hang on stand I have.
Bonus - (for me) Jim is local and a member of my club.
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Originally posted by Kentucky Jeff:
Originally posted by DustinNWA:
I second most of the suggestions on climbing gear. Just like getting started in traditional archery, talk to someone at a local shop like REI that sells climbing gear. Explain your exact need and they can be very helpful. Ascenders like the Petzel, Black Diamond, Jumar, etc... can be expensive, but having done single rope ascending in caves and up overhangs, they are worth every penny.
NEVER buy used climbing gear. You do not *know* the history of the item. Carabiners can develop microscopic cracks if mishandled, a dynamic rope is considered done after a climb with a fall. Pretty much every climbing magazine, website, and climber I know agree on this 100%
Most dynamic ropes are rated for a number of falls of a specific type. I've never seen a climbing rope maker that would sell or even advertise a rope only rated for one fall....What would you do if you were in the middle of a multi-pitch climb and suffered a fall? Call for rescue? Of course not. Assuming nobody got hurt you keep climbing. Even the cheaper ropes are rated for 5 or 6 falls.
Of course, not all falls are equal. For example if you top rope a climber and he comes off the face and the rope is relatively taut its not really considered a fall. But someone who falls 10-15 feet in a bottom belay situation would obviously be considered a fall. But nobody I've ever climbed with would trash a decent dynamic rope after only one or two falls unless they were REALLY extreme--like 70 or 80 feet! [/b]
Thanks for clarifying a bit. I was stating that for used gear specifically. Of course a climb with a fall does not get called in for SAR, but most if my old climbing friends back home are dead serious about retiring ropes. I was not a good climber (which is why I mainly do SRT on anything above a 5.3 or 5.4) so I was even more cautious with dynamic ropes. My statement on the 100% agreement was directed at used gear. Granted if you are really good friend with said seller you could get some good stuff, but why risk it?
One of my goals in life is to get the Cabelas and REI crowds to learn from each other, so sometimes I get a bit "over-enthusiastic".
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I use 30 feet of 11mm static climbing rope and carry two prusik loops in my pocket of 5mm just incase...but it is a lot of work to go up/down a line with prusik loops or ascenders especially if you might be injured. The GriGri self belaying devise is one hand on a lever to lower yourself down.
Whatever system you use practice actually lowering yourself from a hanging position a few feet off the ground so you really know what to do in case of a fall!..tippit
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My four STHS ropes arrived yesterday and I put one in the stand I hunted this morning. I think I'm gonna like this type setup. :archer:
Tippit's rig with the descender looks great, too.
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I second the recommendation for the Safe Tree system! I bought six for all my stands and never worry about an accident. I'm secure from the moment I take my first step up the tree. I always check for possible damage from squirrels and take the ropes down at the end of the season to avoid UV damage over the summer months.
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I researched this BIG TIME about a year ago. What I found was that by the time you paid shipping and bought eveythig you were better off with the following ;
Hunter safety systems - lifeline
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After checking out the HSS, Summit SOP and STHS lifelines, I feel the STHS is by far the best rope and system. It uses Bluewater Assualt Line climbing rope and purpose made prusik cord. The prusik grabs hard and fast yet slides easily. None of them are "cheap", but four of the STHS rigs shipped to my house were much less than the other two brands even before tax or shipping.
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Mobility challenges have made me retire from tree steps and hanging stands, and now I am either on the ground or cautiously up a ladder stand.
I have invested in a Rescue CDS system, and hope to convert to first-step-off-the-ground safety. How does this translate to a ladder stand?
If you tie the bottom to the tree, there would have to be a good amount of slack. If you tie off to the ladder bottom, seems like it could cause a Tarzan-like swing back into the tree.
Thought I'd rather ask than find out the hard way!
Daryl