Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: String Cutter on December 29, 2011, 07:33:00 PM
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Has anyone else been on their website? It seems that their new bow is nothing more then a one piece PCH with a 1/2 inch shorter sight window..
Don't get me wrong I LOVE BW but I think the PCH was a huge flopp and this KB Model will follow suit...
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I don't think either the pch or the kb is a flop. I like the looks of both of them. I have never shot a pch or a kb so I can't comment on their performance, but if it is anything like a psa it must be great.
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id love to try one.
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The PCH is a flop?
Interesting.
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And yet with Black Widows success and reputation it will probably do quite well! There was an earlier thread about the KB model. Check it out. There was some interesting insights on there.
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Pretty sure they wouldn't have come out with the KB if the CH had been a flop. Are you basing that comment on fact?
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The PCH is a flop......? :biglaugh: :biglaugh: Well, it's a flop I shoot very well!
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There sure aren't many used ones for sale. So are the owners holding on to them OR were the sales so bad that there are not many out there?
I had an ad up a while back looking to buy a 56" PCH, but I never got a bite...not even a nibble.
I like the idea of a shorter bow, shorter riser, with longer limbs.
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I have a pch built 2010 and love it. The bow is pleasing to the eye and hand. Shoots quitely where I point it. I have several other bows, custom and mass produced that also shoot as good or better. I still like the pch. What would make this bow a flop over the other bw bows.
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The PCH a flop?
Dude, seriously.
I love my PCH, and I venture a guess that they've sold more than a barrel full of 'em.
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I believe you are incorrect. Take-down Black Widows, including the PCH, have been huge successes. True, I would guess that there are fewer one-piece Black Widow recurves sold, but it doesn't mean they're a failure. There are people, myself included, who like one-piece bows, and once Black Widow are set-up to make a bow, it wouldn't be too long before they'd paid for whatever research and planning went into it.
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Originally posted by String Cutter:
I think the PCH was a huge flopp and this KB Model will follow suit...
Geezzzz....I'm taking my FLOPPY PCH to TX soon. Great bow all around for a recurve. Quiet, smooth draw, no hand shock, and one heck of a stable shooting platform making it accurate as all get out. And this statement is being made by someone who hunts with a longbow 95% of the time.
Also, I love one piece bows, and would LOVE to have a 56" FLIP KB ....yes, a one piece version of my FLOP PCH. Yes, and that statement is being made by someone who hates wearing Flip Flops. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Hey, Terry, flip-flops are great hunting boots down-under (we call 'em thongs).
I almost feel like I'm cheating when I shoot my PCH, because it is so easy and accurate. I too would love a one-piece version of it.
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No....Ben...you don't understand. My mom bought me some when I was a kid...split the skin between my toes, and bought ripped all my toes off.
Me and Flip Flops don't mix......same with Vodka and message boards. :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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Fair-enough. You do feel a bit nervous about snakes in thongs, anyway.
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Same with Vodka and message boards. :biglaugh: :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
Seriously!!! :laughing:
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A flop huh? ONE MANS OPINION!!!
There are a lot of animals that would sure wish it was a flop.
Kinda like you cant kill an elk with anything but a single bevel broadhead.
if the PCH is a flop there are a lot af critters that are alive hanging on walls.
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A snake wearing a thong, now that's a site I do NOT want to see lol.
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After reading the posts here, it is nice to get "another" opinion on something, especially if you are about to lay your hard earned down. I agree with supporting sponsors, and have no experience with the pch, but will do more research before I order one, as I was about to do. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but at the end of the day I know what my wife likes for dinner, everyone is different. A little more looking probably won't hurt.
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I have PCH, PSA, and PAX. They are all terrific. I expect to own my 2nd set of PCH limbs shortly.
I like my one piece PAX best for it's grace and smooth shooting. I'll likely get a KB as well. The PCH with 56" limbs will likely be my turkey medicine.
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If it's going to be a flop, I wounder if I can buy one at half off?
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don-h,
I wouldn't let an internet poster make any decisions for me. You never know what his adjenda is or what ants he has in his pants. (grin)
I'd try the bow myself and then make an informed dicision.
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I need spellchecker!
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man-o man,i shoot the 1pc better love the TF and the PCH TAKEDOWN ,the PCH takedown is one of smoothest bows i have shot and ive shot about 100 different bows in the last 20 something years,have you shot the PCH?????,personally i cant wait for the widow boys to come to Alabama in the end of feb. to the spring fling along with comptons to shoot one of them floppy looking bows :readit:
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I had a PCH in 60" and loved it,eventually sold it but I will say this it's the ONLY 60" bow I've ever enjoyed shooting.
A flop..........please!!!!!!!!
Dewayne Martin
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don-h....I'm not sure how you can derive an honest 'opinion' based on someone seeing a picture and making a baseless negative comment with no real experience with the product. Surely you are smarter than that?
That would be like me seeing a picture of your wife and claiming her cooking sucked.
As Deon says...C'MON MAN!!!!!
They also have a try before you buy plan....so YOU can derive your own opinion based on your experience.
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id love one of those floppy PCH's, but alas i cant afford one. i agree with a post above, if its such a flop can i buy one at a discount???? lol
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Making a judgment on a couple of data points could be very disastrous and has been the sole reason for many catastrophic consequences.
>>>First of all no bow to be ever created will be a match to all
>>>> A perfect match for one may in fact be a total mismatch for another
Have only owned a PSA and a PCH… The PSA was a mismatch due to the grip yet maintained very nice manners- solely my fault for not trying before I buy. The PCH with a different grip is a natural match, seems to have more in the burner and is solid while being well behaved. Had mine 2 days before a 3D shoot and shot better than a ‘9’ with her. Please believe me when I state that this was far above my normal performance. She will indeed be a great bow for many.
While I am not a BW bow disciple, I am extremely confident in this quality, noncomplacent and customer service oriented team. My hats off to them for taking the year end and year out unwarranted abuse. Perhaps it just runs off their backs. They may just review and digest what is valid and ascertain the qualifications for change against the summit height fluctuation of orders.
We are quite fortunate to have BW as a prospective bowyer company.
**The KB perfect matches will be abundant .**
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I'm going to get a new bow this year so I will check out the KB at Kazoo before I decide which one.
P.S. It WILL be another Widow.I personally like the one piece bows
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Hey Terry, it takes a real man to hunt in flip flops in Texas. :help:
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee178/sunstone/P1010440.jpg)
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I couldn't imagine! !!!!
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I don't think he was saying that either bow was a bad bow.
I think he was referring to a "flop" as far as sales go.
I have no idea what BW sales are or what models are popular.
I'd like to see their sales numbers if he has them available though....
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I just got out of the shower, believe me I'm not stepping foot into that Texas bush without boots. :biglaugh:
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I have has a few BW bows and shot them all. For an all around recurve the PCH is by far my favorite in the lineup. I wouldn't have thought the KB would have had much to offer that the other one pc bows, PCH, and PSR wouldn't have covered. I hope to shoot one at Kzoo and see.
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I have never noticed the sight window on my PCH. A slight cant, and it doesn't exist. I cant on all my bows.
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The more bows a company makes, the more become available second-hand - simple maths. I bet for every PCH that appears on some classifieds, there are lots that don't. There are always various Black Widows for sale. I've bought and sold a few, not because I didn't like them, but to finance other bow projects.
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Not to jump in to a BW debate but what would "a lot" for sale be? If there were 5 PCH's on the classifieds at one given time I'd think that would be a lot for sale; but in the perspective of how many they've sold it's probably miniscule. Without knowing how many they've sold it's a rediculous statement.
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Terry, I have the BW bug pretty bad right now. I don't know enough about shooting trad to have a clear opinion, but I sure like to see someone point out that a bird pooped on the roses before I smell them. Just got two bows off the classifieds and ordered a pup for my daughter from mike,( great story JHG, life is short) I have never touched a BW, but want one due to the praises on here. Don't know that a bad review is a negative, I appreciate it.
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Don, absolutely read everything you can, good and bad. But it is best to try one out if you can (I couldn't do this, living in Australia, but I researched, decided and have been very pleased - incidentally, my mates were able to try my Black Widows, and all of them own one now). But just know that the bigger a company or identity gets, the more criticism they will attract. This is true of Bear, Howard Hill (the person and the bows), Black Widow, Trad Gang... the list goes on. Get big, and you will attract criticism. Remain small, and you won't. Which is fine, normal, and just how life works. The little one-man band bow companies attract virtually nothing but appreciative comments, on the whole (unless something goes really bad with a deal - but mostly this doesn't happen). If you hang around the internet jungle long enough, you'll see Black Widow copping flak. But the happy customers outweigh the unhappy ones by far. That's my two-bob-worth.
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I agree with ya Ben. That's just life.
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I have two pchx that are identical specs just different woods. These two are my favorite bw bows. I had a third pchx that I sold only because I ordered the low grip and couldn't get used to it.
At one time or another I have owned or shot all the bw models, and still own a few of them. The pch is IMO their smoothest drawing bow. As far as small sight window I don't have any problems with it and, I shoot vertical with NO cant.
That being said I am in the market for another BW but I'm not sure if it will be the KB or a PTF.
Black Widow doesn't make a bad bow, just different models for different tastes kind of like chocolate and vanilla.
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Having owned and shot ALL the Widows, bought my first new one back in 1996 and still have it, IMHO the PCH is the best handling/shooting takedown the've built so far. Hope they have a good selection of KB's to shoot in Kalamazoo, I'll be taking one home if it shoot's like I think it will. Suprised by the addition of a new one piece to their line-up, Yes. Disappointed, not at all.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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I think BW is in business long enough to make wise business decisions. If the PCH wasn't a good selling bow (flop?), I guess we would have never seen a KB model. Why making the same mistake twice. As for the sight window, some people even like the PSR model with pretty much no sight window. To each his own. Just choose the bow for your application. If you shoot your bow vertically, then the KB is not for you.
If the PMA would be the best selling bow they have, then one could bet that a one-piece MA would already exist. It's a business, that works with demand and supply. And the few people who want one here in the forums are just a small part of the big picture.
As for longbow limbs for existing PSA or PCH risers, I think that will be a no-go. The deflex riser platform will not work well with longbow limbs. That's the same with deflex ILF risers and longbow limbs. Too much brace height to be effective and fast. Or they would have to put a lot of reflex in the longbow limbs which would make the bow not as smooth anymore.
If they would stay with their concept and would create a brand new 3-piece longbow....it would look like a Habu bow and everybody would accuse them for copying the Habu design. So they cannot win in this case either.
I guess they know how to use their resources to stay in business.
Blacky
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When basing an opinion of observations; this thread says it all.
If you have no hard facts to base a statement on, just count the number of satisfied customers for the PCH here, vs. the non satisfieds.
Just my observation.
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I have shot hundreds of bows in the 4 years i have been shooting trad, i have got the fever so bad sometimes i feel like i'm going to explode.
The best shooting bow i have ever owned was a PSA X Osage with Copperhead skins and 62in.
I tried the PCH and i shoot 3-D style and it wasn't for me but if you cant the bow then theres no problem.
I sold that PSA X not because i didn't like it but just had to have some money fast.
Back on my feet and i will be ordering that same PSA X in febuary when they come to the spring fling.
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Originally posted by T Sunstone:
Hey Terry, it takes a real man to hunt in flip flops in Texas. :help:
(http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee178/sunstone/P1010440.jpg)
On further inspection...I see the real hunters on the ends....the guy if flip flops aint got no bow!!! He's an Imposter...only posing with hunters. :biglaugh:
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Well....String Cutter,....you've reloaded for the last time.
This sort of posting is common from you, so don't say you 'hate to stir the pot' cause you do it often. We get alerts often about your baseless outbursts, and its gotten old. You post this stuff just to get a rise out of folks. You have broke the golden rule here at Trad Gang over and over....This is a bowhunting forum, where folks share their experiences....not a baseless opinion forum which you seem to think it is.
I know, its all my fault, I should have pulled this one from the 1st alert.....but, I gave it a chance to work out.
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I have had a few BW's and they were fine bows. I shot them as well or better than most. I find the supernatural performance claims that some make are baseless. But every custom bow has those that believe they are most bestest ever :D And to them they are!
With that said, I thought the PCH was a grand idea and I'd love to shoot one, but shooting one would lead to owning one and that's something I can't do right now.
However, I was a little underwhelmed with the KB (just being honest). For me the PA model had it covered on the shorter one piece and would still be my pick. But I have sense enough to realize I am just one guy and you don't make or break a decision on "one guy". Also, I was guilty of riding the wave of speculation and enthusiasm leading up to this new bows release. Thus my expectations for a completely "out of the box brand new" idea were unfounded. You might say I let myself down, I reckon that was the case with a bunch of folks.
BW is a great company, an American institution even. Theirs is a well deserved reputation and in their own style, have something for just about everyone. I suppose expecting them to do something that is not their style is like looking for a cow to lay eggs.
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I have the PCH 44#@28 with 60" limbs right handed. I've shot them all and the PCH is the smoothest for me. I did the try before you buy program and really put the bow through a lot of shooting. I have Arthritis in my hand and fingers I can shoot this bow with out pain! That can't be said for a lot of others. I will be getting either a lighter set of limbs for 3-D and leagues around 35# or I might get another complete bow. I would use the 44# for hunting. I will be going to Kalamazoo Expo in January to shoot the lighter ones in draw weight. I have had the bow for 4mts. and have no complaints. It shoots better for me canted. If it wasn't for this bow I don't know if I could continue to shoot traditional like I have been for the last 40 years The KB bow just appeals to the one piece bow shooters. My friend has a PTF and would never own a take down. He has shoot Widows for years. I will shoot a KB at Kazoo to see how I like it. If I do I will order one if not, then another PCH in lighter limbs. Just for the record the PCH is my first ever Black Widow new or used.
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Those guys at BW seem pretty smart to me... smart enough to know that if a 3-piece model was a flop (the PCH), then it probably wouldn't be good to model a one-piece after it.
I hear nothing but praise for the PCH bows. I've shot them a number of times, and liked it quite a bit myself. If I had the money, I'd add one to my collection.
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I was hoping the new bow would be a longbow with a forward recurve handle. That's the model I am waiting to give a test drive! I think that a number of people(not everyone) were hoping for some type of longbow. Either a one piece or takedown. I hope thet they make one someday.
I was honestly dissappointed it was another recurve, but I guess you gotta stick with what butters your bread. I'm sure there are a lot of guys happy with the new curve. I personally was hoping for a longbow.
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The bow is just what i thought it would be. i dont know why any one would think it would be somthing else.
you have the PMA 3 piece take down, then the MA one piece.
Then you have the PSA 3 piece take down, then the PA one piece.
Now you have the PCH 3 piece take down, then the KB one piece
Makes a hole lot of since to me.
People who like a short one piece will love the bow
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Two problems exist with the 3-piece LB offering.
#1: According to informal conversations that many have had with BW people (me included), the longbow limb concept just doesn't work with their existing risers.
#2: Over 80% of the bows that BW sells are recurves. Their market is the recurve shooter primarily. To delve into the LB market even further is a risky business move. Even with the raves that people give over their existing PL longbows, they still account for only some 10% - 15% of the bows that they sell. The rest are recurves. A short one-piece recurve could potentially appeal to 80% of their target market, but a 3-piece LB appeals to a much smaller segment of the traditional archery population, per their business mix.
I think that a 3-piece R/D LB with back-mounted limbs would go over well, but it would involve a lot of research and development, as guys like Kirk Lavender and Steve 'Sixby' have attested to over and over here on TG. It would also require an entirely new line of limbs to interchange with the new risers.
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Looking forward to Kalamazoo to try one.
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Originally posted by Archie:
#2: Over 80% of the bows that BW sells are recurves. Their market is the recurve shooter primarily. ................
Over 80% of the bow models are recurves. 6 and now 7 recure models with only one LB. Hard to sell as many LB with that line-up. Why not make some more bows for the LB market? Believe me the LB market is there. Their market is the recurve shooter because they do not have much to offer the longbow shooter. Too bad because they make great bows and the PL is a nice one.