Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Steve O on January 07, 2012, 07:00:00 PM
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Seems there are always a lot of tuning questions and lots of worry about field points and broadheads weighing EXACTLY the same thing.
The next time you are worrying about your practice points and broadheads being 15 grains apart, try this little experiment:
Take a bill--a piece of genuine US currency--out of your wallet and fold it up so it is in a little square you can set on your grain scale. It can be $1, $20, or $100. Your grain scale is going to read out very close to 15 GRAINS! .
Are any of us good enough shots to tell if we have a dollar bill wrapped around the front of our arrow? Is that one going to be a "flyer" that ruins the group?
Do your brand new shiny Judos fly any different after an hour of stump shooting when they are jammed full of mud, grass and bark?
The inconsistency of anyone's release is going to be grossly more than a dollar bill worth of point weight.
I am a fairly detail orientated guy...my head will NOT let me shoot those crazy wobbly bamboo arrows out of any of my bows; even though I watch my buddy kill deer after deer with them...but this point weight thing is one of those little details that can slide.
In my opinion...what say you?
:campfire:
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Very interesting SteveO! :campfire:
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I agree 110%. More time practicing and less obsessing would probably be a better approach for most of us.
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I think you have made a GREAT post here Steve! Folks do seem to get too detail oriented with all this tuning stuff. If it gives you/them confidence then it should be done. BUT, Another way of looking at the weight issue you cite is this. There are 7000 (seven thousand) grains in a pound. So if you are shooting a 50# bow, that is 350,000 grains of force acting on the arrow (give or take.) So even if you arrows are off by 20 grains ( gasp!) that is about .006% difference between arrows as seen by the bow's force.
I too, do not believe any of us shoot well enough to tell that difference. Our form (since we are human) will easily cause more error than even grossly mismatched (in weight) arrows.
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I totally agree. It seems that way too much technology and science gets involved in traditional archery these days. I have no problem with making what's good better but to a point. Pardon pun!
I have some broadheads that are many, many years old. Some sharpened more than others thus more metal removed. I got curious for some reason and weighed them and 10-12 grains difference in some. Ummm! Now I have a problem, ummmm! Guess what? Not! I cannot tell a bit of difference them even out to 30 yds. I shoot 125 grain on everything and I know that plus or minus 15 gr. is inconsequential in my business. Shoot, my wood arrows can easily vary that much. My thinkin!
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Aw heck Steve, Another reason I won't be able to use when I miss! ;)
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My broadheads weigh around 15-20 grains more than my field points. But I'm not gonna fret over it. I'll just aim about 2.38" higher than normal at crunch time! LOL! :biglaugh: :laughing: :rolleyes: Ha, just kidding.
And I'm generally a detail freak, which is one of many reasons I left the wheelie bows. I got way too entangled with every grain of weight, whether it was arrow weight or something extra on my string that cost me 1 fps.
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Right on, Steve. Most bows will give good arrow flight with a fairly wide range of arrow spines and physical weights.
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Good point
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Right on the money Steve :wavey:
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I almost fell into this trap while buying Woodsmen's the other day for my Savannah. I spent a while making sure my arrows bare shafted perfectly and was mulling over the fact that my broadheads were were 5 grains heavier than my field points....turns out I am as poor of a shot with both so no big deal :)
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Steve, well said. When you think about it most of us Trad guy's, except for some of the old farts like me, have never shot a stick prior to our wheel days. Keep it simple, don't over analyze it and let it flow. Getting the arrow from point A to B isn't complicated, don't fret over it. I doubt if Ishi sat over a grain scale next to his cronograph wondering "can I kill a deer with this setup" :dunno: Don't make it confusing because it's not.
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Originally posted by Steve O:
Are any of us good enough shots to tell if we have a dollar bill wrapped around the front of our arrow? Is that one going to be a "flyer" that ruins the group?
Speaking of good enough shots...
I was trying to find that photo of you with the aerial disc you shot right thru the dollar bill last year. I think you know which one I'm talking about. :clapper:
As for me, I shoot arrows from 580-650 grains with relatively the same consistency. Never perfect, but good enough for my liking.
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Broadheads are longer than field points so it weakens the dynamic spine some. We do sweat the little stuff too much!
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I actually just enjoy the fun and challenge involved.
I experiment often with several different methods. But the actual bottom line for me is that my both my field points and BH's are on the mark at 3 & 25 yards.
Note: If your arrow is tuned well towards the middle of the range for perfect flight, then you position your set-up to easily accept reasonable variation.
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Funny topic here, since I will worry about small details in my equipment that makes no real difference in my shooting.
Great shooting form with perfect concentration, release, and follow through is much more important.
(Of course, we all need something to blame for poor shooting)
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So, I wonder. Is anybody real good with Stu Miller's calculator? It is too complicated for me ;)
How finely does it predict the spine? Is it to the pound or thousandth of a pound? How much does 15 grains change the spine I wonder???
I also wonder how consistent is the spine in the best matched dozen of wood, carbon, or aluminum arrows? How about the consistency of spine in a single shaft. Bet it is a lot less consistent than than a dollar bill worth of weight wrapped around the point.
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Steve, I commend your post. I think we are seeing way too many "technical" posts. A few years ago Terry spoke out about it. I'm not talking about getting help tuning a bow. I'm talking about all of the technical minutia that now seems common on Trad Gang And now more than a few topics that seemed designed to just start trouble -- very troll like posts.
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I'm with you Steve! Thank you, i don' t know why people get so hung up on all those details... What did Fred Bear, HH and all the old timer best hunters did, I'm serious, would day fuss with all the details, of now a day arrow tuning etc??
What do you think?
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I would add, are all these techy posts, from the ones who use to shoot wheelies? Because at the club I use to shoot, it seems that the wheel boys were always fussing about this or that... wile the Trad shooter, just well shoot....
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I really try and keep silent about this very thing, all the time. And do pretty well, I might add. I know it's just "human nature" to tinker, but some of you have a real disease about it. Really.
Most of us shoot critters at 20 yards and less. A whole lot of arrow problems can be solved with a little more feather at that range, and have no difference in accuracy. And the benefits are straight flying arrows....and all that goes with that! And surprisingly, most of the arrows I own will shoot from most of the bows I own (and there's a bunch) equally as well, regardless of weight. Building and shooting selfbows has taught me a whole lot about achieving good arrow flight over the past two decades, and maximizing my bows potential. It really is'nt rocket science...in fact it's "prehistoric". So if you like tinkering...oh well. I like to have my mind at ease so I can concentrate on the real task at hand...shooting game. The less confusion I can interject in the shooting process, the easier the rest is. Keep it simple. No better advice has ever been offered.
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A lot of this technical stuff tells me that they lack confidence in their equipment. They need to shoot their bows. Learn their equipment. Stop "hunting by computer" and loose some real arrows. It would not hurt them to read a book on the subject instead of fishing for "advice" on the internet. Advice that's likely from someone who knows less than they do. They want some "edge" like this is some kind of competition so they can "win." This is bowhunting. You don't get a parade.
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The only tuning advice I really ever needed I read in one of Fred Bears books. "Broadhead tipped arrows need big helical feathers."
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All I know is that I use the same Axis 400's for every bow I own. I can shoot 165gr on up to 225gr...I only adjust the arrow length.
Three 4" helical shields, and I have no problems tuning my arrow to my bows. KISS principle.
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I'm guilty of it and it comes from reading books and getting advice.15grs of point weight really make a noticeable difference?Yes,when shooting bareshafts past 20yrds.I do beleive one must develope consistant shooting form before getting into bareshaft tunning.
I sure don't know anything about this Stu's thing but seems to be about how to get the proper tuned arro on paper instead of going afeild w/ the bow shooting???I guess I'm too old school.I rely on shooting my bow to tune it.
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Depends on the bow. If I tune up my high-performance recurve with carbon arrows and then had you slip in some that were 20 grs. lighter and others were 20grs. heavier I would be able to tell you which were which after shooting them. And not because the heavier ones drop...which I don't think they do, I can tell by the way they fly and where they impact the target. I fine-tune all my hunting arrows because I feel it's the right thing to do.
On the other hand I have bows that I can feed a bunch of different weight/spine arrows and they'll eat em all.
Wood also seems to make an arrow more "forgiving", I never even bother bare-shafting them. Or maybe it's because I do use a lot of feather on em.
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I get detail oriented for one reason...so I can forget about all this stuff when I am making a shot.
I don't want to wonder about my equipment. I have enough variables wondering about ME!
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Originally posted by Steve O:
So, I wonder. Is anybody real good with Stu Miller's calculator? It is too complicated for me ;)
How finely does it predict the spine? Is it to the pound or thousandth of a pound? How much does 15 grains change the spine I wonder???
Fairly new to trad equipment and from my perspective the Stu Miller calculator is a gift from the gods. Maybe not so much to dial in your setup to the grain but as a tool to look at different combos and get it close.
It answers the question; If I add 100 gr inserts do I need to go up a size.
I do know that some of the pro compound guys claim to be able to tell the difference right at 6 grains or so on long 60 yd shots
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Steve, very good thread. I think we drive ourselves crazy with tinkering...I have been guilty of it some too. We got into shooting single-stringers to get away from some of that crazy stuff.
Here are some of my observations:
1. If I tinker too much, I shoot too much at one time. I end up getting tired, my form goes to hell, and I tune more. It is like groundhog day...
2. When I make a move-ANY MOVE- as far as changing equipment, I make one move. Say a point weight adjustment or a different feather cut. Any more than that I end up back at observation number 1.
The weight of a dollar bill, now that's a feat. I find when I start tinkering the dollar bills that I send down range disappear into the same black hole unmatched socks in the dryer, inkpens when you really need one and my favorite pocketknives go :knothead:
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Unless you are right on the edge in terms of spine, 15 or 20 grains won't be noticeable. I think most bows have a much broader spine range than any of us can imagine (or notice).
I like to test my broadhead tipped arrows for tune by shooting them. If they have stable flight (no wagging or porpoising) and hit where I point them, they are tuned. Bare shafting, even with the same weight field point as your broadhead, might tell you that your spine is right, but it doesn't mean your broadheads will fly the same. Ya gotta shoot 'em!
For instance, my recently acquired Shelton bare shafted with 28" 2016s and 225 grain field points perfectly. I made up some El Grandes with steel adapters that weight 225 grains. At 15 yards they flew great but consistently hit about 4-6" right of my aiming point. I switched to a long aluminum adapter (about 42 grains) which dropped me to just a shade over 200 grains up front. They still flew like darts, but hit to point of aim from 10 to 20 yards. Had I just assumed that the bare shaft field points were going to give me the same results with the broadheads, I might have made a disastrous shot on game. So, 20 grains can make a difference, I guess.
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Bang on Steve!
Funny that I can add a pile of weight to the tip and they fly well but reducing the tip weight significantly hinders my flight.
If my tuned arrows carry 200 grian tips, I can shoot them with 300 grain stumpers covered in mud and get great flight, but with 100 grain clean tips not get good flight.
Perhaps for me and my shooting style/release, a weak arrow just works or manages to recover better than a stiff one. As far as 15-25 grains difference....can't notice!
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I find that Stu Millers claculator has allowed me to experiment with arrow length, spine and point weight variation and then purchase arrows that are similar in dynamic spine. This means I am not wasting money, and yet optimizing my chances at being able to get comparable tuned arrows for my bow set-up.
Although relatively new to traditional archery, I can certainly see a change in my arrows if I alter point weight by 20 grains in either direction. I have a very high performance longbow with a 30+ draw, and the arrows will fly differently, hit in a slightly different horizontal location, and impact into the target with a different shaft orientation. This is very easy to see as distances increase greater than 35 yards to the target.
Mark
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Good thought Steve O, I couldn't agree more.
I also totally agree stickflinger's comment.
I attribute it to draw length and release. There are so many form issues that rob bow efficiency. I think an arrow that is slightly weak compensates nicely.
If you are tuned slightly stiff... those variables will become obvious more often.
I would also like to add that I think some patience should be extended those who are asking redundant questions.
To many of us, we have read it million times and its exhausting. However students always begin at the same place. One of the stages in development is obsessing over minutia. (Or feeling the right bow/setup will make you a better archer. )
IMO, thousands of arrows makes you a better archer. There is no substitute.
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Well...now we are cooking :campfire:
So, here is another tidbit to ponder...
I was visiting with Roger Rothaarr a few years ago. We were out in his yard shooting. He was talking and I WAS listening! He came across a very old aluminum shaft with a big ol' Snuffer on it buried in some tall grass. He proceeded to nock that arrow up and sink it right into the center of one of his targets.
I came home and went to work. If you are tuned, you can shoot a broadhead (and I did do it out to 20 yards not over 30 like Roger did)bare shaft.
You guys that can tell a dollar bill worth of weight difference in your shooting...how do your broadheads fly bare shaft? Find a SAFE place and give it a try.
Please don't get me wrong. I am not saying tuning is not important. I have helped many guys tune, it is very, very important!
What I am saying is, if your arrow flight is affected by 15 grains of point weight, there probably other factors to look at...
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Originally posted by Montanawidower:
I would also like to add that I think some patience should be extended those who are asking redundant questions..
Absolutely! This was in no way meant to belittle anyone. Not at all. Only to stimulate some discussion. Sometimes as an engineer, my words are too direct, so please, never take anything I say as something other than positive. :wavey:
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If I have the ability to get my set up matched exactly with no real work involved, why wouldn`t I do that? I can`t see where that would indicate I have a lack of confidence in my equipment. I would argue it is a simple no brainer. Yes, with my carbons I can tell a 15 grain difference in point weight. I can also tell if I cut them a finch. Poi & arrow flight change, for me. And yes, I have shot a few arrows.
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Hey Steve,
I do a ton of tuning and fine tuning, I just find it very enjoyable and obviously a challenge with some bows. I may start off with bare shafting and adjusting arrow length and tip weight to get me close. I'll then move onto paper tuning and fiddling with the silencers. Once I have everything as close as possible I right it down, like most folks do.
I help instruct several buddies who are new to this type of equipment and you'd be amazed at how difficult it is to tune their bows. Their releases, draw lengths and finger pressures etc are all over the place at times. I've found myself having to tune and retune their bows. The easiest way to teach them consistency is the chronograph. Sometimes their arrow speeds may vary 6 fps from arrow to arrow and they thing every shot felt the same. A good tool, if you're into that stuff.
With that in mind 20 grains on the tip end or nock end in the form of an arrow wrap can make a difference. Not nearly as noticeable with bows that are cut past center but on some longbows yes. Enough to miss at 10 yards, definitely not. However, if you short draw 1/2 inch and hang your fingers up slightly.....along with an arrow that's heavier on the end. You may just miss, oh well, shoot another one! That's what I do :thumbsup:
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Steve........me again.
I love to talk about this stuff. The biggest factor in consistency is the shooter. If folks would spend time 10 minutes each day striving to shoot 10 perfect arrows at 5 feet you'd be amazed at the increase in accuracy.
The biggest culprit for poor accuracy is not 20 grains, it's changing bows, arrows, anchor points etc. We all "including myself" have this incredible urge to continually change something. :dunno: Whether it be in our equipment or form.
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I would suggest that if a 20 grain difference really mattered it would be almost impossible to get broadheads to fly the same as field points on the same arrow. As mentioned above, broadheads lengthen the dynamic length of the shaft; thereby weakening it compared to the same shaft with a field point. I remember this "problem" being addressed back in the 70's with special field points designed to maintain the same weight, length and weight distribution as their matching broadheads. My guess is we no longer see them because they fixed a "problem" that didn't exist.
In my experience, the problem is real with many high performance compound bows, but I've not experienced it to any noticable degress with recurves or longbows.
No substitution in my book for practicing with broadheads during the hunting season; and yes, with the same equipment!
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Steve
The other issue is that most will not know who Roger Rothaarr is.
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generally speaking...I've found that the more weight up front, the better the flight and stability of the arrow. (Provided all else is "In tune")
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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I agree that we get too caught up in the details at times. I will say this, I like to have consistency in a set up that works for me (in my case AD trad lites, 31.5', 250 up front) not because I think a minor difference here or there would make a signficant change in the outcome but because it allows me to focus on the few variables that I think make the most difference, my form, focus, and release. When I feel pretty confident that the equipment variables are held constant (also why I like the AD lites because they are so forgiving to small differences) then I don't worry about them but just focus on the few really important variables. It's not so much about feeling like everything is perfect as not wondering what caused that shot to be different from the last, this way I know it was just my fault:)
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Tim hits on a valid point...for me at least! If I short draw or have some finger lag on the string, it's now a significant shooting error causing arrow flight issues. Perhaps that's why a weak shaft works for me as I NEVER over-draw and often under-draw.
Shoot an arrow that performs in cases regarding YOUR common errors, one that will fly nicely when you make your common mistakes!
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Ryan,
I tune all my arrows to be slightly weak. Most often when tuning our bows in search of the perfect arrow we are warmed up and our shoulders are loose. More often then not we will tune our bows on nice calm days when wind isn't a factor, which usually means lighter clothes. This all equals another half inch of draw.
You're not alone very few folks overdraw when shooting at animal in hunting conditions. Shooting down from a treestand will also cause a slight reduction in your draw length. I really believe a slightly weak arrow will be more forgiving.
Tim
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Hmmm.... so let me get this right. Most anyone who tinkers with point weight & tecnhnical archery things have no confidence in their equipment & most likely are ignorant about icons of the trad archery world. Hmmm, pretty general blanket statements dont you think?
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:biglaugh: Yeah Brian and fly fisherman who tie their own flies and look under rocks don't know what their doing!
I tinker because it's fun and pays dividends in the field...and the freezer. And just how many arrows did Howard Hill go through before he found the perfect dozen that carried broadheads?
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Steve O says "If you are tuned, you can shoot a broadhead (and I did do it out to 20 yards not over 30 like Roger did)bare shaft."
What next you maniac? running with scissors? :bigsmyl:
I'm such a boyscout sometimes... never bareshaft with broads
Anyhow, I will try that this summer and let you know how it works out.
And , I tune like Tim suggests, on the weak side just for the reasons he states.
And, I've looked up Stu's calculator twice because I thought I was missing something and both times I closed it up without following it all the way through, too complicated for this feeble-minded archer.
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Now fellas, don't get all *********** on me...
Tuning is a wonderfully thing. One of my best memories ever is watching one of my hunting partners dance a jig he was so happy with his broadhead flight when we got done tuning his set up. And I do work hard at consistency in my arrows. I have not shot wood arrows for a long time because I need to know if something went wrong it was ME, not a wobbly arrow.
Now me, I don't think you could put a hunting bow in a shooting MACHINE and see a difference of 15 grains of point weight at 30 yards...I would like to try it though.
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If I am shooting very consistent with a carbon arrow bare shaft out around 25 yd or more, I can tell 15 gr. Just did it the other day, and I did see a consistent difference. I had to shoot both shafts side by side over maybe 10 shots each to have some averaging to allow for little form things, but it was there. However, fletched up I could not see it. I do believe that I could if my tune was borderline particularly on the stiff side. Even then, it would likely be sporadic flight issues when form compounded the point weight difference causing an over stiff condition. I find it is better to be a little weak to account for short draws and such. When I have that and tune in the sweet spot, I do not see much difference in small point weight differences or field point vs. broad head.
Seems to me I have to tinker more with carbon arrows than I ever did with wood or aluminum, but particularly wood.
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"Now fellas, don't get all *********** on me..."
Just looking for clarification big fella :p :p :p
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Originally posted by Swamp Yankee:
I agree 110%. More time practicing and less obsessing would probably be a better approach for most of us.
But, but....then what are the obsessives going to obsess about?
:D
Just kidding. I fully agree.
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What if we obsess about practice AND tuning AT the same time!!
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Thank you.
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One question, If you tune your arrows, let say bare shaft, at 15 yards... what happen at 5, 8, 10, 12 yards might be different, no?
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"I tinker because it's fun and pays dividends in the field...and the freezer. And just how many arrows did Howard Hill go through before he found the perfect dozen that carried broadheads?"
This is a quote of Tim's....I have'nt figured out the quote thing yet. You would think I could after all these years...(now you know why I don't/can't obsess over some of this....a lack of patience)
I think this techno-obsessing stuff is a relatively new phenom. We use to only have the Easton chart, and a spine chart for woodies to deal with. Pretty simple. In the mid-eighties, I use to catch a lot of flack for shooting 190 gr. Grizzlies....yeah! Nobody shot more than 125 gr. on their arrow points. It was also one of the reasons I could go to bigger feathers...another thing I caught flack for (and still do). But now, with the internet, we get bombarded with info all the time, and it makes us all "doubt" or constantly adjust I think, moreso than we used to. At least those of us who like to do that or are still learning and not so stuck in our ways. I have several dozen carbons now...still shoot mostly wood....but I set them up exactly like my wood, and they work perfect! Maybe even better than the wood. I still shoot heavy broadheads (I set my arrows up with them from the getgo), weight the shafts to get the overall up, and put the same big feathers on the back. They fly so well, I think if I were a better archer, I could shoot the 50 axe heads that Oddyseus shot through...and they work with my selfbows, and my custom recurves and longbows. I just don't have time to fuss with a new arrow for each bow I own.
I'm not poo-pooing the whole tinkering thing, there is a lot to be learned there, and make no mistake, I build my arrows as exacting as I can, so that there's no guesswork in the field for me either. It's just new products, new info, new attitudes, and yes, new hype have changed the whole persona of "new trad" a bit, and it makes me "wince" a little. But I still like you guys anyways!
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I have to disagree that this type of tinkering is a new thing. If any of you have read "The Old Bowhunter" about the life of Chet Stevenson, he talks about knowing how many times his arrows rotated over a given distance. He used that knowledge to perform trick shots in front of audiences while promoting archery.
Tinkering isn't new. Being able to discuss it so easily is!
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Even less choices in Chet's day....and a whole lot less info about it. His "tinkering" was probably not more than astute observation about what was working for him, and how he applied it. It would likely pale by today's comparisons, simply by virtue of todays vast array of choices. I read Chet's book when it came out (been awhile) and have to say it's one of my favorites, but I can't say that I was struck by his attention to "tinkering". Now his skills as a bowyer were impressive.
For me, it's easier to build bows that work for my stash of gear, than to play around with different arrows all the time. I suspect Chet did a lot of that. And anyone who shot arrows constantly and did a great deal of trick shooting would observe that "with big feathers" their arrows rotated X-times in 10 yards...or some such. Writing it down probably made it seem much more of a process than it was...not unlike today, I'd say, and our impressions from all these posts about it. :bigsmyl:
Of course, it's just my guess. Like I said, tinkering is fine, and I have no problems with it. I just think what some are attracted to about it, others may get overwhelmed...when there are easier solutions that can work as well many times. So the question is, how productive is it, in regards to keeping some who might be turned off, interested in what is supposed to be a simple sport? It's almost becoming the same as the pro-shops that sell the compound stuff and TELL you what you need, rather than realizing that all that crap is just that...crap, and not necessary. That's my beef with it all. And in getting back to the original premise of Steve's thread....15 grains, by most, myself included, would hardly be noticed, especially at hunting distance. The gear itself will shoot a whole lot better than I am capable of shooting it, or in controling the numerous array of possibilities that can occur while I am shooting it. I've been shooting for 40 years, and my form is pretty set...and I "think" I have a good grasp of "how", -- now someone "new" to trad, will not have near the frame of reference that many of us who have been shooting for years now, have, and I daresay, it probably will not be noticeable to them either.
A good experiment to try though...and interesting. Tinker on! Then post the results.
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Originally posted by Steve O:
Take a bill--a piece of genuine US currency--out of your wallet and fold it up so it is in a little square you can set on your grain scale. It can be $1, $20, or $100.
:campfire:
Quick question...what does a $100 look like? Haven't seen many (if any) since I got married and had kids. :biglaugh:
Steve AKA "Big Spender" O...ya better come over and show me one. I've even trade it for some 5 grain brass washers they sell at various places.
All seriousness...good point!
Josh
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I feel some on here brought the wheel bow mentally with them. Point weight 20gr does not mean much at 20 yards :deadhorse:
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I would like to think alot of the finer tuning also goes with personality. There are some people who are perfectly fine with how an arrow flies, and there are some that see that LITTLE kick when it leaves the shelf, and need to get rid of that kick.
When people, at work, tell me they are an Engineer, I usually respond with "I have always wanted to drive a train too". Some times it is taken with a smile, and others not so much.
Some guys just have to tinker with things. There is nothing wrong with it, actually, it is probably a good thing, and I should probably do it more. Next time your over Steve, let me shoot a few, and tell me what you see. It will more than likely open my eyes, and then you'll probably get me started in a whole new hobby.
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I would like to be enlightened, what is the "wheel bow mentality"? What if I shoot farther than 20 yards, am I ok to tinker with stuff & match it up then?
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The only two things I'm concerned with in a bow are noise and arrow flight. A quiet bow means the animal is still in place when the arrow gets there and perfect arrow flight equals great penetration. :thumbsup:
To achieve this takes some time and effort, but well worth it in my eyes.
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awesome post first of all
Now to answer the question- Yes I can feel the difference 15 grains makes. Not on a shot or two, but after I shoot a quiver... yeah. Yes I can. A resounding ABSOLUTELY might be a more appropriate response. I think you guys who say "no" are selling yourselves short. That being said I do shoot off spined arrows with varying point weights.
15 grains, honestly, makes only a little difference at best. Maybe 5 pounds in arrow spine? 20 grains, however, changes the spine of your arrow by about 8 pounds, if my memory serves me. Thats a significant difference in spine there gang. Now if you are already shooting 340s out of a 45 pound bow you probably are not gonna notice a difference of as much as 40 grains in point weight.
Ok Ill shut up now.
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You guys better "straighten up"!
Rob's back from Solona, and you know, you goin to get it! :biglaugh:
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So what happens when I use the same broadhead year after year and when I sharpen it the grain weight changes and since I am not consistent all my bh weigh slightly different. Awwww I just better quit shooting and get me a gun. Oh wait billets are measured in grains also. Lol. 15 grains means a lot I'm sure but I'm not good enough to tell. Not at 20 yards or 50. I do tune my arrows to my setup though.
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Man, after reading all this I don't know if I'll be able to sleep tonight! ;)
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Originally posted by bucksbuouy:
15 grains, honestly, makes only a little difference at best. Maybe 5 pounds in arrow spine? 20 grains, however, changes the spine of your arrow by about 8 pounds
I am going to have to call BS on that one.
I believe a 5 lb change in spine is a significant change on spine. That is an entire spine group.
And 5 more grains to get to 20 grains? 8 pound change in spine? Is it not a linear function? 5 grains is 33% of 15 grains. Shouldn't it change by an additional 1.65? for a total of 6.65 pounds by your first formula?
I'd bet it is closer to .05 pound difference in spine for 15 grains. How come somebody that knows how to use that darn Stu's Calculator can't plug an extra 15 grains on to the point weight and tells us EXACTLY (well as exactly as the theoretical formulas driving it) what the difference in spine is :goldtooth:
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Mike, I will teach you all I know about tuning. BUT, I have no idea how to do it on a wood arrow! We will have to teach each other a bit :thumbsup:
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I've got plenty full length 60-65# already built up, now it's time to have some fun. Like I said, mine shoot fine to me, and if I keep them full length, if they snap, I can retaper and keep on going. As many arrows as I make, it might be better to figure out my actual length, that way my new arrow case I make will be shorter, lighter and easier to pack.
Can someone plug my numbers into Stu's calculator for me, and let me see what he says my "real" length should be. I'm kinda interested to know.
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See, told you I was happy, and then you guys went and talked me into tinkering. I hope I don't give up and start back with an atlatl.
Next thing your gonna tell me is that I need to start shooting carbons.
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Originally posted by Steve O:
I believe a 5 lb change in spine is a significant change on spine. That is an entire spine group.
I'd bet it is closer to .05 pound difference in spine for 15 grains. How come somebody that knows how to use that darn Stu's Calculator can't plug an extra 15 grains on to the point weight and tells us EXACTLY (well as exactly as the theoretical formulas driving it) what the difference in spine is :goldtooth:
You asked for it! :biglaugh:
It is 4.2# of sipine chanange for a 15 gr. point change.
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Originally posted by Mark Baker:
Even less choices in Chet's day....and a whole lot less info about it. His "tinkering" was probably not more than astute observation about what was working for him, and how he applied it. It would likely pale by today's comparisons, simply by virtue of todays vast array of choices. I read Chet's book when it came out (been awhile) and have to say it's one of my favorites, but I can't say that I was struck by his attention to "tinkering". Now his skills as a bowyer were impressive.
For me, it's easier to build bows that work for my stash of gear, than to play around with different arrows all the time. I suspect Chet did a lot of that. And anyone who shot arrows constantly and did a great deal of trick shooting would observe that "with big feathers" their arrows rotated X-times in 10 yards...or some such. Writing it down probably made it seem much more of a process than it was...not unlike today, I'd say, and our impressions from all these posts about it. :bigsmyl:
Of course, it's just my guess. Like I said, tinkering is fine, and I have no problems with it. I just think what some are attracted to about it, others may get overwhelmed...when there are easier solutions that can work as well many times. So the question is, how productive is it, in regards to keeping some who might be turned off, interested in what is supposed to be a simple sport? It's almost becoming the same as the pro-shops that sell the compound stuff and TELL you what you need, rather than realizing that all that crap is just that...crap, and not necessary. That's my beef with it all. And in getting back to the original premise of Steve's thread....15 grains, by most, myself included, would hardly be noticed, especially at hunting distance. The gear itself will shoot a whole lot better than I am capable of shooting it, or in controling the numerous array of possibilities that can occur while I am shooting it. I've been shooting for 40 years, and my form is pretty set...and I "think" I have a good grasp of "how", -- now someone "new" to trad, will not have near the frame of reference that many of us who have been shooting for years now, have, and I daresay, it probably will not be noticeable to them either.
A good experiment to try though...and interesting. Tinker on! Then post the results.
There are pictures in that same book of the thousands upon thousands of arrows Chet built, and notes of his on what bow liked what weight of arrow, which fletching and what type of string. Fascinating reading. Apparently he also built an arrow machine that let him spine, straighten, weigh and spin test on one piece of equipment. Would have loved to see the plans on that!
And lest we stray too far from the original premise of the thread, in my ill tinkering heart I think it would be hard to detect the difference in 15 grains of point weight, unless you are already treading the edge of a spine problem. That's well within my range of shooting error, anyway.
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[/QUOTE]You asked for it! :biglaugh:
It is 4.2# of sipine chanange for a 15 gr. point change. [/QB][/QUOTE]
No kidding. The only change was 15 grains to the point weight and it changed the arrow spine 4.2#. I'll be darn.
What arrow specs did you start with? A 26" 2219 aluminum with a 100 grain point or a full length .600 carbon with a 300 grain point?
Big difference isn't it?
Will that thing theoretically tell you how much the spine will change if your draw varies by half an inch?
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Originally posted by Steve O:
You asked for it! :biglaugh:
It is 4.2# of sipine chanange for a 15 gr. point change. [/b][/QUOTE]
No kidding. The only change was 15 grains to the point weight and it changed the arrow spine 4.2#. I'll be darn.
What arrow specs did you start with? A 26" 2219 aluminum with a 100 grain point or a full length .600 carbon with a 300 grain point?
Big difference isn't it?
Will that thing theoretically tell you how much the spine will change if your draw varies by half an inch? [/QB][/QUOTE]
Steve,
It will tell you how much the spine required for the bow will change
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Well then, Todd, could you put that arrow back in that you used to get the 4.2# and run it with a different poundage for the bow you were using a half inch longer and shorter than the draw length you had in originally?
I find this all pretty fascinating :clapper:
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Who knows how to use the calculator that can input my numbers for me to figure out my correct length arrow?
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I can try some stuff to see how it changes. That was one of my bows and my carbon arrow. I do not shoot what it says by the way. I shoot 20# under spine with 400's. 500’s are close. I also find that carbon length and point weight do not match up for how they change flight. Length is a bigger factor with carbon than point weight for me.
I will run my bow and arrow with draw weight, length and point variables.
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Originally posted by Mike Vines:
Who knows how to use the calculator that can input my numbers for me to figure out my correct length arrow?
Mike,
Need your bow stats, ie; type of bow, riser cut,string type and strand #, poundage at your draw and what your draw is.
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Originally posted by xtrema312:
I can try some stuff to see how it changes. That was one of my bows and my carbon arrow. I do not shoot what it says by the way. I shoot 20# under spine with 400's. 500’s are close. I also find that carbon length and point weight do not match up for how they change flight. Length is a bigger factor with carbon than point weight for me.
I will run my bow and arrow with draw weight, length and point variables.
That will be great for comparison sake. What you just said above further degrades the confidence I have in the numbers "the calculator" spits out though. For that thing to be accurate, it would have to incorporate physics, dynamics, and mechanical vibration equations. From what I have seen of it, it looks like it is more on the line of linear equations...
A couple of other "general" things I have noticed which may or may not help somebody when they do a search on "tuning" and this thread pops up:
Weight added to the point of the arrow has a much more drastic affect on spine (decreasing) than does adding it to the nock end (stiffening).
Weight tubes make arrows do crazy things!
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Originally posted by Prairie Drifter:
Originally posted by Mike Vines:
Who knows how to use the calculator that can input my numbers for me to figure out my correct length arrow?
Mike,
Need your bow stats, ie; type of bow, riser cut,string type and strand #, poundage at your draw and what your draw is. [/b]
I just set a request to get them from Chuck at Two Tracks, unless you already know what his Ambush riser is cut to?
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I was wrong. That was a different bow and arrow combo than I shoot now, but it did confirm the change. It was a different version of the calculator I have not uses for a while so has old data entered.
I ran my bow and arrow. I found it was more like 2.4# spine change with the 15 gr. I also ran that up and down. It was the same plus and minus the weight. Then I ran up and down on a 1/2" draw length difference. That was about the same as the 15 gr. It was maybe about 2.6# spine change. Now that is bow requirement changes not the dynamic spine of the arrow so it is not exactly the same thing. A change to the arrow changes the arrow, but a change to draw changes what the bow is supposed to need.
I will try some other arrow combos to see what happens.
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When you find out I'll run the numbers for you.
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Sorry to come off pompous but lately I have become less of an archer and bow hunter and more of a mad scientist who does freaky experiments with arrow spine, point weight, brace height and the like. To be honest, this stuff does keep me up at night. I need a hobby to get away from my hobby.
If any one has any further questions or needs help with arrow spine and or point weight feel free to pm me.
Jason
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Originally posted by Prairie Drifter:
When you find out I'll run the numbers for you.
Allright, here you go...Ambush recurve, 50" tipi to tip, riser cut 1/16" before center, NOT PAST, then side plate brings it to 1/8" BEFORE center, Fast Flight string. Bow is 49# @ 28", and I draw a true 28". Right now, I use wood arrows (douglas fir 60/65# full length, 125 grain tips, bohning classic nocks, three 5 1/2" shield or banana feathers. Total weight is 585 grains)
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With the calculator I found different shaft lengths with carbon and different spine produce some variables in the lbs of dynamic spine change caused by 15 gr. Longer shaft act a little different as do stiffer shafts. I found the greatest change with shorter weaker shaft and lighter points with carbons. For instance my 30.75” 400 with 275 up front changed 2.4# while a 28" 500 spine with std insert and 125 point up front changed about 3#. I hit one combo that went 4#. That is all carbon.
I tried a 29” 1916 and got 3# change going from std insert with 125 point to 140 point. Tried a 2216 29” with std insert and 175 point and 190 point. I got 3.8# spine change. Then I ran the 2216 @ 31” and got 3.2#.
Looks to me like the longer shaft has less change with point weight. I would have thought it would be the other way around due to leverage.
I bare shaft for the most part and just play with the calculator.
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Originally posted by Mike Vines:
Originally posted by Prairie Drifter:
When you find out I'll run the numbers for you.
Allright, here you go...Ambush recurve, 50" tipi to tip, riser cut 1/16" before center, NOT PAST, then side plate brings it to 1/8" BEFORE center, Fast Flight string. Bow is 49# @ 28", and I draw a true 28". Right now, I use wood arrows (douglas fir 60/65# full length, 125 grain tips, bohning classic nocks, three 5 1/2" shield or banana feathers. Total weight is 585 grains) [/b]
I have not shot wood for a long time.
How long is full length?
Ok wood is all different so need more info. Dia of arrow? Also it uses AMO spine so not sure how to best enter that. I will have to do some checking. Maybe someone shooting wood and using the calculator can better help with the arrow input.
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31 1/4" valley of nock to BOP
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Ok I put in a 10 strand string no silencers. Figured the shaft at 65# AMO, but no input for dia. of shaft. Here is what I get so far.
Bow 54.1#
Arrow 49.9#
Add some silencers and you are within maybe 3# so far.
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Originally posted by xtrema312:
I found the greatest change with shorter weaker shaft and lighter points with carbons. For instance my 30.75” 400 with 275 up front changed 2.4# while a 28" 500 spine with std insert and 125 point up front changed about 3#. I hit one combo that went 4#. That is all carbon.
I tried a 29” 1916 and got 3# change going from std insert with 125 point to 140 point. Tried a 2216 29” with std insert and 175 point and 190 point. I got 3.8# spine change. Then I ran the 2216 @ 31” and got 3.2#.
Thanks for doing all that work.
What that tells me is Stu's Calculator is a neat tool to estimate where a good point to START would be. Definitely not gospel for small changes. Field work is KEY!
Well, I think this has been a pretty neat discussion. Is it turkey season yet? :)
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Originally posted by xtrema312:
Ok I put in a 10 strand string no silencers. Figured the shaft at 65# AMO, but no input for dia. of shaft. Here is what I get so far.
Bow 54.1#
Arrow 49.9#
Add some silencers and you are within maybe 3# so far.
I have silencers, and they are 11/32" shafts if that helps any.
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It showed me that the amount of change is a variable with different arrows. One shooter could see more of a change than another shooter based on arrow set-up.
Throw in more vs. less feather preference and you get more of a possible level of how much you notice the small change.
I also think the bow makes a difference. Everyone says a cut past center bow is more forgiving than a cut out from center bow. You may see a movement in impact with a cut out from center bow that you wouldn’t see with a cut past center recurve.
I also think FOC plays a factor in what you notice. When I get HFOC the arrow tends to go where I point it even if the shaft wiggles more out of line in flight.
So put the extremes of all that together and one person could see a change and another see nothing. Everyone is right.
:biglaugh:
Let's go shoot something! :archer2:
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Mike, you do your personal tuning by PM...you are cluttering up my thread :readit:
:biglaugh:
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Originally posted by Steve O:
Mike, you do your personal tuning by PM...you are cluttering up my thread :readit:
:biglaugh:
This is good stuff. If I keep it up, I too can drive a train in a little while...Oh wait, that's a different kind of engineer.
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Originally posted by Mike Vines:
Originally posted by xtrema312:
Ok I put in a 10 strand string no silencers. Figured the shaft at 65# AMO, but no input for dia. of shaft. Here is what I get so far.
Bow 54.1#
Arrow 49.9#
Add some silencers and you are within maybe 3# so far.
I have silencers, and they are 11/32" shafts if that helps any. [/b]
I had figuredd 11/32 and put in AMO spine of 60# for a variance between bow and arrow of 1.2# not figuring the silencers. I am just not sure on the AMO vs. ASTM spine. I think that the 60-65 is AMO. Just can't recall. Time to sleep.
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Just to add another variable for those of us that shoot wood, make sure to spine both sides of your arrows. This might only be an issue in shooting hardwoods where grain can be somewhat inconsistent but I sometimes find a 10# difference in spine from one side to the other in the ash I use. This definitely created flight differences.
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WOW you guys... I don't know what to say...
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SteveO,
Love your story about Mr Snuffer shooting his bareshaft tipped Snuffer.Yes it can be done but there takes quit a bit of TINKERING to a bow and arro combo to do it.I'm sure thru all the years of archery that Roger has under his belt,he knows a thing or 2 about tunning.I would doubt that he can pick up any alumin. arro and throw a big Snuffer on it and bareshaft shoot it perfectly,as your story suggests.I'm not saying it didn't happen.I'm saying Roger's arro and tip weight was perfectly tuned to that bow and if he had a 145gr Snuffer on that arro,the results could've been different.
I feel this Stu's thing is very useful for those extremely aggressive bow designs.Some of these bows are so particular in shooting form,to bareshaft tune them can be very challenging.
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Hey Steve, the turkeys up here are confused and strutting because they think it's spring snow melt (our only snow came less than a week ago and it's almost gone).
Anyway. Your comment about using something like Stu's calculator to get close for someone "new" or someone trying out a shaft that they don't have experience with is pretty spot on. For me in the end, it still boils down to if I can step back 30 yards and my field points and broadheads are both grouping in the same clump small clump of grass in the sand bank at 30 yards, then I'm good to go.
Many of the comments above are correct in my opinion when it comes to telling the difference between 15-20 grains of point weight at 20 yards. However, try shooting that with a low 40's weight bow at 25-30 yards and you'll see a significant difference.
Sometimes I wonder too if before long one of our bowyers is going to invent the compound bow all over again. We've got "high performace strings" of a myriad of materials (does anybody remember when Kevalar strings came out in the 70's and the latest and greatest before compound bows came on strong??); we've got foam/carbon/concave limbs now, (does anyone remember the funky recurve limbs with waves I believe it was Carroll Bows) just prior to the compound wave?? Does anyone remember the advertisment for "Dyna-stressed limbs".....new x-7 Easton shafting....Berger buttons (I just acquired one of the originals from early 70's) and on and on. Some of the old guard (see Fred Asbells article on wood arrows in TBM and Ron LaClair's website on his use and selling of wood arrows again) appears to be bucking this trend. I think this is a good thing. I've always shot longbows and recurves since 1966. I did my share of fiddling with carbon arrows for 7 years, but this past fall I switched back to wood arrows and it feels SO good. Right now I'm prepping a test pack dozen Surewood shafts from Braveheart Archery and I'll dial them in for my Super Shrew and my 71 Super Kodiak. Yes, "old time" still tinkered and did so by shooting arrows. Howard Hill used to make up a bunch of arrows, shoot them at long range at a clump of grass and then gather them up in bundles according to where they hit. So yes, there was methodical testing "back in the day" too.
Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but are you really asking are we moving down the slope to reinventing the compound???? I think tradtional archery is ultimately about getting back to one with your mind and body and enjoying watching the arc of an arrow and getting away from the hi-tech stuff we're used to doing day in and day out (ironic that we're on computers communicating this all). There are some shortcut's to experience with things like Stu's calculator (I've got a copy on my computer-guilty as charged), but I know ultimately it's the arrows arc and getting back to just shooting that soothes my soul.
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Ray and all,
My intent here was:
1. To stimulate discussion and get varying opinions.
2. To state tuning your arrow to your bow is VERY important.
3. To state none of us is a good enough shot at 30-40 yards to tell if there is a dollar bill worth of weight difference in our points, so don't sweat it! When one is consistently breaking nocks at 40 yards and has silver dollar sized 6 arrow groups at that distance, I will believe one CAN see a difference in 15 grains of point weight...
Again, tuning is a GREAT thing! I think it helps you become a better archer and thus a better bowhunter. It just strikes me funny when I see some poor guy freaking out because his broadheads are 160g and all he has for field points are 150g...it is almost like they are afraid to shoot them!
:campfire:
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Steve,
I'm on board with ya from that perspective. You're correct, with the 150 versus 160 analogy. Heck, if I need 160 grain field points and 130 grain broadheads and they group the same at 30 yards, I'd do it so that my hunting season practice is consistent (but I usually shoot a few broadheads during hunting season practice too at the end of a session).
No matter how you come about selecting shafts/spine/point weight, there's always going to be some shoot in work required.
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Steve,
If you bow is cut to +3/16" with the strike plate included AND you want to shoot an arrow that is 1" long bop than your 28" draw length, with 125gr tips I think the 60/65's will be too stiff. I'd go with 50/55's...unless you will trying some heavier heads/field pts.
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Jeff....like I said it has been awhile since I read Chet's book, which I loved, and I stand corrected...he probably WAS a tinkerer.
As to Steve's point of all this....tuning is important, I agree, and it should be done to the extent of achieving as perfect arrow flight as one can get. My point, and I think Steve's as well, is we can easily get carried away with it all. A waste of time? That is to be determined by the "tinkerer" himself, I guess. But there are many ways to "skin a cat" and new folks should realize that. I always loved trad bowhunting for it's simplicity....and I still do. Still, it is important to understand the forces at work and their affects on whatever your trying to achieve, and how they will affect whatever outcome, big game, or targets, your end result will be as well.
Now, I think I'll read Whips thread on saving for a hunt....that's a skill I can always learn something from!
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Guys, I realize that I am not a good enough shot to tell the difference in flight, but 15-25gr can make a bit of difference in the sound of the shot. I am going through that right now.
Thanks to Ray, I have the 25gr heavier broadhead inserts i need to make my bow quieter.
God Bless,
Nathan
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I inputted +15 gr point weight to an arrow that bare shaft tunes in my bow [30.75", axis 400, 480gr total] into Stu's excellent calculator and it weakens the spine 4.2# also [73.4 to 69.2]
The next step would be to actually add that weight to the point and see if it still tunes. I'm a tinkerer but not that much- it ain't going to happen!
And the whole question, "can you tell the difference in 15 gr?" if that 15 gr throws off the tune of your arrow you probably can. I'm guessing many bows shooting a weak spined arrow can be thrown by this, not by the added weight giving the arrow more drop but due to SPINE change affecting tune.
So far as best as I can tell, my Morrison ILF with Inno's has about a 10# spine range that will bareshaft well so a 4.2# difference is not an issue. Great thread Steve!
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On light arrows out of light bows its a big percentage change so it does seem noticeable. On heavy arrows and heavy bows not a all......On 725gr woodies out of a 65# recurve I can change 25gr +/- and not see any difference in arrow flight........
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I know you told me not to start this up again but I just had to put in a couple of my own thoughts. Out of 8 pages of input I didn't see one comment on my bamboo arrows. Shooting those things is living proof that form and release is more important then anything in my opinion. Can anyone explain to me why I can shoot the same bamboo arrow off all my bows from 44lbs. to 57lbs. How many grains do you loose when you sharpen your heads? Seems to me they can have the same grain weight as the field points and as soon as you sharpen them you could loose 15 grains.