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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Zradix on January 15, 2012, 10:01:00 PM
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I'm shooting about 175ft/s out of my 46# @ 29.5" draw.
my arrow wt using 200 grain heads is 594grain.
Ends up about 13gpp.
If I went with the big J's head I'd have an arrow wt of about 644grains which would put me at 14gpp.
I'd estimate my speed would be 160+f/s.
I'd be using this setup for whitetails.
The trajectory and all I'm able to learn and deal with.
My worry is in the penetration dept.
I do know how to make a 3 blade scary sharp.
Do you think the big jim's 3 blade is just honestly too big for my setup?
Thanks
:thumbsup:
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Nope...not too big on whitetails.
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At that speed and weight I don't think you would have any problem penetrating any animal in north America with your set up.
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You should only lose about 5 fps with a 50 gr arrow weight gain.175 is extremely fast for 13 GPP.Bows I've chronoed would hit about 155-157 fps.
I thought the Big Jim head was 300 gr or are you using the glue-on?
At any rate,don't expect to lose a ton of speed adding 50 grs.I don't know how you will be tuned though if you are tuned now with 200 gr points.
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I'd be using the glue on.
I don't know what to say about the speed.
Little longer draw....optimistic chrono...?
I'm pretty sure new arrows would be involved for tuning as my arrows are cut about as short as I can go.
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Well anyway,my bow setups 48-53# would needed 90-95 grs of total arrow weight to change arrow speed 10 fps.That's why I say app. 5 fps for 50 grs.The extra weight just increases momentum a little and for those that go by it,also increases KE slightly.I also don't notice a trajectory difference.
Sorry,I haven't used the head but I have looked pretty hard at them.
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Sorry I've got to be on the other end on this one. 46lbs @29.5 so we're talking about a bow thats just over 40lbs @28, I don't care how long you draw it, I'd going with a razor sharp 2 blade. What type of bow is this? That seems really really fast for a 46lb bow with 600grns
I might have to buy another!
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With you guys saying my speeds are pretty high you've got me questioning my chrono a bit....
Even though I'm not all about the speed, I do like to find out what my speeds are as a tool to find out my momentum.
It's just a Martin Savannah.
But even if I started at 165ft/s I should be around 155+ with the heavier heads.
I'm just curious to know if I should be able to push that big o 3 blade through 2 layers of deer hide and the gooey stuff in between.
Thanks for the help.
:thumbsup:
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The reason I'm asking is that I have a new bow being made that should be about the same draw wt and if anything a bit faster.
I'll be needing to get new arrows for the bow and would just as soon settle on a tip wt before I start the whole tuning process.
That big hole just sounds SWEET.
But I'd much rather have 2 smaller holes from my current VPA's than 1 big one from Big Jims's.
But I'll tell you what...2 holes from that Big Jim head would just be unreal..
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I'm shooting a 47# @ 28# bow with 650 grain tw arras for my big game set up and it has proven deadly. Shoot some speedy small game with your setup and you'll feel fine about using it for deer.
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I'm in the same camp. Kanati, 43@28 pulling 29.5 and shooting a 640 gr arrow. 30 1/4" vapor 400's. 325 gr. up front. Either 125 gr snuffers or eclipse 2 blades with 100 gr steel inserts and 100 grain brass inserts. FOC is up there. 23% maybe? It don't get there fast but when it gets there it don't stop! Also drops like a rock past 20 yards but I'm not shooting past that anyway.
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theres a guy on archery talk that shoots a 29.5" draw and a 47# bow. he uses 346gr total weight w/ tip arrows with rage 40 ke broadheads (1.5" mechanical). He is 3 for 3 so far this year. All pass throughs besides one that hit the off side shoulder on a qaurtering away shot.
Dont think you need a extremely heavy set up for deer. maybe a wide 2 blade would be a good choice for you.
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Originally posted by TDHunter:
46lbs @29.5 so we're talking about a bow thats just over 40lbs @28,
No, that's not what he's talking about....you've got it backwards.
46#@29.5 is more like talking about a 50#bow at 28. That longer draw DOES make a difference.....Dr Physics says so.
For whitetail....all day long with your set up. Deer are just a grocery bag full of shaving cream and a few tinker toys....and one ball joint...
Just stay away from the ball joint as there's no guarantee you will bust though it no matter what head you use.
If you DO want to make sure you have 2 holes, especially if the deer is reacting to your shot, then I'd say the VPAs like you said.
If Izzy's 47# set up killed these with a 1.5 inch wide head....surely your set up can shoot through a dang whitetail!!!!
(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o244/2crazyboys_photos/DSCN2599.jpg)
(http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii51/rburtis1/3cba1e2e.jpg)
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Terry, not to start an argument but if you take a bow that is 49@ 29 1/2 wouldn't you be pulling about 4 1/2 pounds less at 28"
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Ranger....
The 1.5 inch longer draw is going to perform MORE than a lesser draw of the same weight.
Is not just the weight of the bow...but the draw LENGTH as well that propels the arrow faster.
Again...but reworded..
Performance of 46#@29.5 is more like talking about performance of same bow 50#s at 28.
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jeez Terry...
Those are some massive hogs Izzy put down.
That really puts things in perspective....what a plate!
Have any idea how close he got on those shots?
I plan on keeping my shots 20yds and under...hopefully well under.
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Terry, What!
46#@29.5 is more like talking about a 50#bow at 28.
Less draw is more weight? How does that make any sense?
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Terry said it is more like a bow 50# at 28" . He is not saying this bow does that but the 46# at 29.5 is like 50# at 28".
But I respectfully disagree , he shouldn't be using a big 3 blade . Maybe a smaller 3 blade but not a snuffer or Big Jim head . But that is just my opinion .
With that said you'll be surprised how much an extra 1.5" of draw does for the power stroke!
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What he's saying is that a 46# at full draw bow drawn to 29.5" is comparable to a 50# at full draw bow drawn to 28".
That extra 1.5" in draw adds energy to the arrow during the power stroke....about as much as 4 extra pounds would.
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Originally posted by MikeW:
Terry, What!
Less draw is more weight?
That's not what I said....but what I did say is pretty common knowledge....least I thought.
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MikeW maybe it may make more sense written in this manner.
Let for a second imagine you have two bows (and two shooters)
Both bows are the same model from the same manufacturer with the same materials (let’s say synthetic for consistency of the ideal)
The first bow is 46@28
The second bow is [email protected]
The bow that is shot at the same weight yet draw an additional 1.5 inches will outperform the bow draw to the same weight at 28.
The difference is time on string. The longer the arrow is pushed by the string with a given amount of force the more energy is can absorb.
There for to compare ballistic data from John’s setup to that of a 28" draw we would be looking at 50ish pound range to receive the same results.
In this case John has stated he can get a broad head scary sharp and knows his limits. GTG
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Originally posted by FerretWYO:
MikeW maybe it may make more sense written in this manner.
Let for a second imagine you have two bows (and two shooters)
Both bows are the same model from the same manufacturer with the same materials (let’s say synthetic for consistency of the ideal)
The first bow is 46@28
The second bow is [email protected]
The bow that is shot at the same weight yet draw an additional 1.5 inches will outperform the bow draw to the same weight at 28.
The difference is time on string. The longer the arrow is pushed by the string with a given amount of force the more energy is can absorb.
There for to compare ballistic data from John’s setup to that of a 28" draw we would be looking at 50ish pound range to receive the same results.
In this case Johnhas stated he can get a broad head scary sharp and know his limits.
Yeah the light bulb went off with that explanation, the way Terry wrote it I was going WTH? read it numerous times and couldn't figure it out...I've never claimed to be the sharpest tool in the shed....Thx.
:wavey:
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Performance of 46#@29.5 is more like talking about performance of same bow 50#s at 28.
I will agree to that
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People get so fixated over comparing weight that they hardly even notice when you mention drawlength.
With good form on that long draw, his chronograph doesn't seem so outrageous to me.
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agreeing with everyone above about KE,,, he's pretty much shooting the same energy as a 50-52# bow drew back 27-28" with a 125-200gr point...
that 29.5 is a much longer power stroke,,, but adding 50grains up front will weaken that arrow spine,,,, I'd bare shaft to check the spine with 300grain FP's and then go low on the fletching if its not already to keep the trajectory flat and give some more speed (energy).
a better flying arrow with 250gr will penetrate better than a sloppy arrow with 300 all day long even at 29.5---> pushing that 3-blade through both sides it needs to be flying perfect 8^)
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What are we talking about hunting here? Deer or Hogs? With that setup I wouldn't give a second thought to shooting Big Jim's on deer( they are 300 grains not 200)but if it's Hogs I'd opt for a good 2 blade like an STOS unless you have more money than brain cells then it would be an Ashby.
Just my 2 cents
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If you place this arrow on the intended mark, then you will have ample lethality.
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Good point Tajue17. Zradix, your current arrow is plenty dang heavy for whitetails. But I understand the urge to change it up. Maybe you could still use the 300 grain head, but find a lighter shaft to offset the 50 grains.
That is not crazy on fps. I shot a chrono and dropping 100 grains added about 20 fps - was pretty shocked, but sticking with the heavier arrow anyway.
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I'd like to find a lighter shaft but I still want to use wood.
I'm already using tapered spruce...doesn't get much lighter.
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Don't worry to much about lighter. Tune it up right and practice practice practice.
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I know the big jims are 300 grains thats why I said check the spine after changing the head because 50grains I hope you all know it WILL weaken spine,,, we are talking 3-blade BJ broadhead on big hogs right well think about the plates on those suckas and a 46# bow (or 50 ot 53 it doesn't matter) after sleeping on it I'd back away from the 3-blade and stick with a 2-balde single bevel just in case you come in to a huge hog.. STOS are nice but they are hard to find now.
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I'd be using the 250 grain glue on.
I tried to clear that up in a later post where I wrote about a new bow/new arrows...sorry for the confusion.
Thanks for the input guys.
:thumbsup:
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I've shot thru whitetails w/ a 47lbs @ 27'' w/ 160 Snuffer.PLACEMENT,PLACEMENT.
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Most of my buddies that shoot traditional are pulling 60lbs at 28in. I shoot 53 at 30in outta my bow longer heavier arrow and same head weight and smoke the 60 pounders. I get more pass thru kills on deer than they do.
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I shoot 52@26" tall tines recurve with a 650 grain full metal jacket arrow with a big jim or simmons tree shark 2" wide head.My bow can bare shaft with my fletched arrows at 20 yards and be in the group,the FMJ arrows are very skinny less friction,BIG broadheads mean big hole for arrow to slide thru,I have killed turkey and deer with this set up with no problem,as far as a pass thru of the whole arrow the answer is no,but the broadhead does make 2 holes,I like my arrow to stay in because I use lighted nocks and find it helpful sometimes to recover game.The deer I shot this year with the BIG JIM did not cut ribs it smashed them 1 on entrance and 1 on exit.If your arrows are tuned to your bow,you hit the right spot,no problem.I would use this set up on any animal,remember most of our shots are 20 yards or closer.Just my experience,good hunting
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This is a topic that get hashed over a good bit. I gotta tell ya that a Big broadhead will do the job out of low poundage bows.
For the record what Terry said is very much true . A longer draw increases performance a whole lot. Dan Quillen said once that a longer inch of draw would equal near 5 -8 pounds of performance. Meaning with a 50@28 verses a 50@29 bow the 29" will perform over 5 lbs better. I believe it.
I`ve killed a few critters and I hunt with a couple guys that don`t do internet that have killed twice what I have. We all shoot low poundage and BIG broadheads most of the time.
My quiver is sorta like batmans utility belt during deer season. I believe in the right tool for the job. If I have found a feed tree or funnel that will let me get away with not climbing very high and I expect my shot to be 10-20 yards I will shoot a Big 4 blade Simmons or Snuffer. If I gotta climb high or in a very tight spot with very close shots the woodsman or Zwickey no mercy will be on the string.Pig hunting where I may encounter a Big hog or 50 pounder in a fast situation I keep big two blade simmons or woodsmans in the quiver.
Bottom line to say will any particular broadhead be right for this or that ...who knows. Good judgement prevails and for me a really big two blade is best when in a doubtful situation with the woodsman in the mix as well.If I hunted on the ground for deer full time I would carry a Treeshark everywhere I went or maybe the Big Jim head or 160 snuffer.
I`ll finish up my rambling with this...There is NO magical broadhead that makes up for a poor shot.RC
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Originally posted by Terry Green:
Deer are just a grocery bag full of shaving cream and a few tinker toys....and one ball joint...
I think this should become my signature line! :biglaugh:
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Originally posted by RC:
There is NO magical broadhead that makes up for a poor shot.RC
Well stated Very WEll stated.
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That was never the intention.
My only thought was to poke a bigger hole and put more blood on the ground faster.
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I will tell you that it doesn't matter how much weight or draw length you have, if you hit him in the socket, your going to regrett it. Other than that, if they are sharp, even the lighter bows will handle the big broadheads.
This year, I hit one deer in the socket and only got about 7" penetration (800g arrow/ 30.5" draw and 80lb bow) using a big jim broadhead on roughly a 180+lb doe.
The shot before was a 250lb buck and I only got 14" of penetration into solid earth after traveling through the crease and out the liver.
good luck and if your skeered of it, say your skeered!
bigjim
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I ain't skeered!
And I don't need no stinkin badges...lol
Funny you chimed in here Jim.
I just got done watching quite a few of your youtube vids.. GOOD STUFF!
Thanks!
:thumbsup:
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Shooting a bow is likely over 90% mental.
Choosing a BH is probably not too far off when it comes to hunting deer.
All will work and all won't work.