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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Doug Treat on January 20, 2012, 12:05:00 AM
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I'm thinking of trying some cedar arrows, but I want to put a lot of weight up front to increase the total weight of the arrow. I would like to end up with a 650 gr. arrow. I think I would either try Woody Weights or wood screw adapters. The adapters would probably be my preference since I could adjust the point weight easier. How much spine weight should I add if I end up with 250 or 300 grains in the front (with point and adapter)?
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What is the specs of the bow? Not that I will be able to help, but other that can will want to know!! have you consider Surewood, it is heavier that cedar and stronger, some people say it is ask easier to find great shaft where as cedar is getting harder...
just my 2 cents
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Doug, need to know about what you are shooting, your draw length, etc. before we can give you a recommendation. It is possible if you can find some good cedar in high spine weights. I would look at douglas fir shafts also. You can get some great shafts in 95/100's that could, depending on your specs, tune up beautifully for you.
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I'm shooting my girly bow recurve(42#@28") because of a bum shoulder. My draw length is 29" so it's about 45#. It's center shot and I use a Dacron string. I don't think I would have to go too high in spine weight because It's such a wimpy bow. Oh, I also like to shoot full-length shafts so that would affect the dynamic spine as well.
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I justed started shooting woodies this past summer, though still shoot primarily aluminums. I bought a test kit from Surewood Shafts and a field point test kit from 3 Rivers (I think). My best arrow flight so far is with an 80-85 spine weight arrow with a 190-grain field tip. I loaned out my grain scale so I can't check weight, but I am pretty sure finished arrow weight is 630 grains.
I plan to play with the test kit a little more this winter so I can buy a dozen (or more) and switch to woodies.
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I would like to stick with cedar for now because I want to go to a local shop (Rocky Mtn. Specialty Gear) and they carry cedar. I think they would let me play with them and find what shoots best. I would like to give them my business if they help me find the right spine. I just wanted to get a starting point from you guys.
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The problem I see is the shaft weight. Your looking for a full length arrow that weighs about 350grs w/o point. That would be just over 10 grains per inch. I don't think you'll find a shaft that light in the spine you'll need. I think your going to need some where between 80-90# spine arrows, but I could be wrong on my estimate.
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I think supporting your local shop is a fine idea. I don't find adding heavy point weight to get proper spine or arrow weight gives me the best flight. I'd go with Surewood (Doug Fir) or Sitka Spruce. Hold up better than cedar, and you could get the weight where you want it. To satisfy both your preferences, maybe you (or RMS) could order up some shafts, and your shop could make 'em up for you.
Just my .02.
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I think supporting your local shop is a fine idea. I don't find adding heavy point weight to get proper spine or arrow weight gives me the best flight. I'd go with Surewood (Doug Fir) or Sitka Spruce. Hold up better than cedar, and you could get the weight where you want it. To satisfy both your preferences, maybe you (or RMS) could order up some shafts, and your shop could make 'em up for you.
Just my .02.
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I shoot a Wes Wallace Mentor recurve, 44@30, and use a 31" BOP cedar arrow with 125 gr point in 60-65 spine. They weigh between 530 and 575 grains. I order my shafts from Wapiti Archery. When you order, just ask for the heaviest cedar that they have on stock.
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Prairrie Drifter is right. You'll need to add a lot of spine to handle the long arrow length and heavy point weight. Will likely need something in the 85# range or up as others have suggested. At that spine, you won't find a wood shaft that weighs 300-350 grains. 400-450 is more likely. Keep in mind that finish, feathers and nock add another 50 grains or so.
I've been shooting wood for more than 50 years and have played some with loading up the front ends. It works to a point, but wood doesn't respond like carbon, and you can't front load them as much.
Your case illustrates a problem with front loading woodies that many run into -- finding spine high enough to handle it. You shoud be able to do it because you're shooting a relatively light bow. Those shooting bows 55# and up usually can't find spines heavy enough to handle a lot of front loading. Good luck. Let us know how it turns out.
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I tried 45-50 in Surewood shafts with screw in 50gr. adaptors and 125gr tips and cant get them stiff enough at 29in. soooo I would go at least 60-65. 42lb. bow 28" draw. Good luck. Let me know what works.
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Doug, if your bow is center SHOT (cut 1/8 to 3/16 past center), you will need a bunch of spine; if center CUT, it won't be so bad and you can always build the side out a little to help. High FOC with wood arrows is a challenge, but I have achieved 20%+ with a 28" arrow. High FOC requires a light shaft and heavy point. I prefer Sitka Spruce to POC for this, but POC will work. Paper tuning will tell you what your final spine needs to be, but I figure 10-15 lb above spine for a 160 gr point.
My longbow, cut +1/8 and 54 lb, needed 70 lb spine for a 28" arrow and 250 gr point weight. Arrow is spruce, 640 gr and 21%.
Is all this effort worth it? It is for me; I love the way high FOC shoots and performs on game.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v450/Fletcher610/Pig%20Gig%202010/P2190127.jpg)
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would a hardwood footed cedar shaft work here? My gut says you'd gain some shaft weight, but I don't know how much or if your local shop can help you with that.
I agree with some of the other guys about cedar and your desired shaft weight; I don't think you can do it. I shoot ash arrows spined to 70# and the full length bare shafts weigh 500 grains, so I doubt you'll get the weight you want with cedar.
I've heard 10 grains per pound of draw-weight is a good starting point, so why go so high with your arrow weight? Serious question, I don't really tune arrows so I really don't know...
Let us know what you end up going with, I'm hoping to learn a new trick or two...
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I have ordered several sets of Doug Fir in the past. I am not familiar with Cedar, but these shafts I have typically have arrived between 420-470 grains.
I keep the shafs around 30 inches. with 125 up front the finished (painted, fletched and sealed)weight usually ends up in the 670 grain range.
If I were to add that much weight up front my arrows would be between 900-1000 grains :eek:
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A hardwood foot on a cedar shaft only adds about 25-30 grains of arrow weight if the overall shaft is kept the same length. Have to remember that the cedar that is removed for the footing weighed something, so you're not adding the total weight of the foot, but the weight of the foot minus the weight of the cedar that was there. BTW, adding 25-30 grains to the front of the arrow increases the FOC about 1%. If you just add the hardwood foot to the end of the shaft, and in so doing lengthen the shaft, the gain is closer to 60-80 grains depending on the density and diameter of the footing.
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I played with long Cocobolo footing to Fir shafting. The end of the splice was at around the mid point of the arrow-the footing was 14" total. They flew just fine but 75/80 was not enough spine with just 125 up front. My regular set up is 75/80+ with a 160 gn point.
I just look for really good tuning and have quit worrying about EFOC with wood.
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Thanks guys. I guess I'll have to find out how much the shafts weigh on average, then add my point weight to get my desired finished arrow weight. Then I can see how much spine weight I will need to add to get good flight.